DMC: A Rather Controversial Revision

[Ningenron]

Why are you being dishonest? That mention of "came a ray of light" literally is referring to Human World right after that line.

My god the fact I'm having such a discussion is just...

Then later It says the light become the human world; that's a huge difference in the meaning.

And it's mentioned the human world doesn't change much; the light still implied to cause the split and Pluto nowhere mentioned.

But yah, this bickering is needless and we should wait for staff input.

 

[Hasty12345]

could someone explain to me the significance of the Demon King prior to Mundus being named Pluto?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

While PoC is non-canon in the sense that it's not the same timeline as the original games, the lore information provided in it should still be valid. And in the older version, this item, the "Chaos Boundary Stone", explicitly does state that the "first light" is what split the HW and DW.

And while I fully understand that this comes the older version, which reasonably had its share of controversy around it due to scans of extremely questionable veracity, it's very easy to find videos of random players having this item in their inventory, like right here for example, so I think it should be fine to bring up.

Pretty much confirms that PoC Pluto isn't responsible for the splitting of worlds either.

 

[Deagonx]

could someone explain to me the significance of the Demon King prior to Mundus being named Pluto?

The OP's contention is that there is no such character, that the scan that has been interpreted as referring to a "Pluto" character was mistranslated and is actually referring to Sparda.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Which isn’t a strong point to consider since voice acting doesn’t take first priority over the writing, direction, and development of the DMC gaming series.

Also VAs getting hired to do their job isn’t exactly what I consider that strong as well.

What’s next? Tekken? Even Tekken has people speaking in different languages so again I don’t find this as particularly strong.

Moot point. Capcom has western culture more prioritized on their games. My previous instances for these proves it. They would literally let the voice actors change their dialogue according to their whim.

This isn't just any English material we are talking about. There are many materials released in English for DMC over the course of these years, in which some of them gives us context that Japanese itself fails to (Mundus being a void, Pluto mentioning, DMC5 descriptions having different wordings altogether).

 

[Hasty12345]

The OP's contention is that there is no such character, that the scan that has been interpreted as referring to a "Pluto" character was mistranslated and is actually referring to Sparda.

If the opposition isn’t trying to attribute a specific feat to “Pluto”, then as far as I can tell this is a completely pointless argument as this “Pluto” is a lore based featless character. Whether or not it’s an actual character, seems like one vague lore mention isn’t really worthy enough for a profile anyway.

That’s just my opinion though.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Moot point. Capcom has western culture more prioritized on their games. My previous instances for these proves it. They would literally let the voice actors change their dialogue according to their whim.

This isn't just any English material we are talking about. There are many materials released in English for DMC over the course of these years, in which some of them gives us context that Japanese itself fails to (Mundus being a void, Pluto mentioning, DMC5 descriptions having different wordings altogether).

That doesn’t prevent ppl from scrutinizing the localization/official version as well as putting those under further scrutiny so I find this as being completely subjective as it stands here

 

[Ningenron]

If the opposition isn’t trying to attribute a specific feat to “Pluto”, then as far as I can tell this is a completely pointless argument as this “Pluto” is a lore based featless character. Whether or not it’s an actual character, seems like one vague lore mention isn’t really worthy enough for a profile anyway.

Yah, pretty much. That's why the proposal is either nuke it or make his profile PoC exclusive.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Dont think we do since 7-D Devil Souls got mogged? (or however many D it was)

Pretty sure we still do, it's just the 9D scans got proven fake so there isn't much to add last I checked

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Then later It says the light become the human world; that's a huge difference in the meaning.

What's the meaning exactly? There is no light mentioned prior to that panel except that one specific statement. You are just baselessly assuming it is the light that split the world.

And it's mentioned the human world doesn't change much; the light still implied to cause the split and Pluto nowhere mentioned.

What are you even yapping about?

But yah, this bickering is needless and we should wait for staff input.

Staff can do anything they want here, they can make their own DMC lore but I don't care about that specifically, you're just making it vaguer then it already is. I'm here to talk from a factual standpoint and your point here just makes no sense regarding Pluto.

Pluto's profile being deleted or making PoC exclusive doesn't mean anything to me, what means is how we are going further away from logic here.

 

[Deagonx]

You are just baselessly assuming it is the light that split the world

Another user has referenced a scan from POC that directly attributes the splitting of the world to the light. So POC becomes a double edged sword here.

Staff can do anything they want here, they can make their own DMC lore

That's not what is being proposed. It seems as though the Pluto profile isn't lore-accurate.

Pluto's profile being deleted or making PoC exclusive doesn't mean anything to me

You've been the primary voice of opposition during this thread. If you don't care about what the thread is proposing, it is better if you stop clogging the thread with the back and forth.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Another user has referenced a scan from POC that directly attributes the splitting of the world to the light. So POC becomes a double edged sword here.

So we are now using a deleted 1.0 scan that has no context for what it is even talking about and even in an alternate timeline on that? Is it safe to assume we can use all the obscure 1.0 scans that didn't made into the final built? The statement that also could be referring to the chaos that splitting the world in halve in a poetic fashion (tearing itself apart)? And the difference between 1.0 and 2.0 is that of Heaven and Earth, there was a reason we removed PoC when we saw such huge changes not just in the game description and stuff but the story and dialogue itself too

That's not what is being proposed. It seems as though the Pluto profile isn't lore-accurate.

It's pretty lore accurate if we just follow the on point content given to us instead of using sementics with Japanese contents here.

You've been the primary voice of opposition during this thread. If you don't care about what the thread is proposing, it is better if you stop clogging the thread with the back and forth.

Yes because it's a dumb logic being vocalized here.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Some kind of nonsense is happening.

The manga indicates that the beam of light is the Human World, and not some beam that cut the universe. We have two options:

1) Pluto divided the world with a beam of light.
2) Peak of Combat was wrong about the formation of the order of things.

The manga is a higher priority than the mobile game in terms of canonicity and authenticity, because the game directly refers to this manga and, as far as I know, the manga was written specifically a little earlier than the game was made to give the players an appetizer.

Two participants are trying to actively prove what the creator of DMC 1, from where this indication was taken, literally refutes.



We are directly told that this is not Mundus, and Kamiya does not even answer that this is a translation error. Considering that the English version is one of the official languages of the series, and the fact that the main creator of the game only says that Pluto is not Mundus, and not "We did not mention Pluto, this is a translation error", then we can safely say that Pluto was.

You have no direct evidence that Pluto is Sparda. In turn, in favor of the fact that Pluto is a separate character, there is indirect evidence in the form of a mobile game, which, although not completely canonical, is much higher in priority than far-fetched theories.

Besides, let's take a closer look.

"Pluto shall come on the promised date and separate heaven and earth. The one with black wings of treachery shall come and stand in Pluto's way."

If, according to your theories, Pluto is Sparda (We already officially know that it is not Mundus, so we take the theory that it is Sparda), then by this logic, the "black wings of betrayal" are Mundus, because he stood in Sparda's way.

It is definitely not Mundus. Why the hell is he a traitor? It would be more logical to consider Sparda a traitor, because the demons were united against humans, and Sparda too for some time. It was HE who went against the demons, it was HE who betrayed the demons. Mundus is not a traitor in this situation. However, Pluto is not Mundus, and Mundus never divided the worlds, on the contrary, he merged them together.

It is most logical to consider that Pluto is the first king of hell, who divided the world of people and the world of demons (as we officially believed BEFORE the release of Peak of Combat, by the way, and only then this theory became known and a few years later Peak of Combat officially gave a physical appearance to this character), and the traitor is Mundus, because he rebelled against Pluto.

 

[Ningenron]

Most of this is already address on tbe OP; it's best to wait for staff input.

 

[Random-Helper323]

I do think there's an issue with people who don't know the verse deciding whether a lore character exists or not, and it doesn't help that the DMC base is about as energised as a dead fish.

With Pluto, I think we do know for a fact the character exists since he clearly exists in PoC, which technically is still part of DMC lore, just a different part of it.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

I'm pretty sure the admins will accept this thread because most of them don't read the whole thread. But I wanted to wait for the opinion of people who know the DMC world better. Like Tony. And so that admins who are not familiar with the world of Devil May Cry do not interfere with the topic.

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Pluto is a Demon God character in Peak of Combat... I let y'all decide what this means... Instead of just dumbing down his lore portrayal that vocally refers to him of all people.

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

Pluto is a Demon God character in Peak of Combat... I let y'all decide what this means...

Oh no dude, you don't get it, it's just a huge coincidence that the first Demon King in Peak of Kombat is Pluto, just like in the source material, and the fact that the designs in the manga and Peak of Combat match is also a coincidence.

I don't believe these two seriously believe that this doesn't prove anything, no matter how canon Peak of Combat is, the fact that it exists as the same character as we considered it in canon for several years before the game came out (And yes, on VSB this has been used, as far as I know, since 2018, and this idea was introduced into the game in 2021) should prove beyond doubt that it's a separate character.

 

[Robo432343]

PoC is canon tho

"The storyline of "Devil May Cry-Battle at the Pinnacle" is interspersed between "Devil May Cry 3" and "Devil May Cry 1".'

"Therefore, as the orthodox sequel to the "Devil May Cry" series, "Devil May Cry-Battle at the Pinnacle" once again carries forward these precious qualities"

"Devil May Cry: Peak Of Combat" is a genuine Devil May Cry mobile game jointly developed by Yun Chang Game Development and the CAPCOM Devil May Cry official team."

 

[Minos_the_Judge]

PoC is canon tho

"The storyline of "Devil May Cry-Battle at the Pinnacle" is interspersed between "Devil May Cry 3" and "Devil May Cry 1".'

"Therefore, as the orthodox sequel to the "Devil May Cry" series, "Devil May Cry-Battle at the Pinnacle" once again carries forward these precious qualities"

"Devil May Cry: Peak Of Combat" is a genuine Devil May Cry mobile game jointly developed by Yun Chang Game Development and the CAPCOM Devil May Cry official team."

Yes.

《鬼泣-巅峰之战》官方网站-云畅游戏出品

web.archive.org

Here

云畅游戏官网

www.nebulajoy.com

and here

Both are literally official sites.

Although it seems to me that this is an alternative timeline, but in the same cosmology. Because of the slightly different atmosphere of the world.

However, V from DMC 5 in one of the temporary online events due to the Gear of Time, as I understand it, goes back in time to the events of Peak of Combat. And it feels as if the canonical V from the original timeline was sent to the timeline from Peak of Combat. And yes, I am a fan of shit, because I still play Peak of Combat and all the events, but their plot is so chaotic that it is difficult to say anything. It is not even known when certain events happen. For example, all of Vergil's events most likely happen during his travels around the world, but this is not specified, but there is not even a hint of when this could happen, so I act from logic. On the other hand, due to the time gear, he met Pluto...

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Agree with the OP.

 

[Senzulean]

So we are now using a deleted 1.0 scan that has no context for what it is even talking about and even in an alternate timeline on that? Is it safe to assume we can use all the obscure 1.0 scans that didn't made into the final built?

The context seems pretty clear to me. The "first light" splitting the world in half would be in reference to how the world was split in two by the "ray of light", which is supported by the manga scan saying basically the same thing. There's also the fact that the item is called the Chaos Boundary Stone and is stated to contain the power of the "original/primordial chaos", referencing how the world was "unending darkness, a crucible of chaos" before it was split.

One of the main problems with the 1.0 scans that were addressed in the Peak of Conspiracy thread was that they could not be found anywhere in any video across gameplay of countless different players, on top of very likely being doctored for several reasons. On the other hand, it's fairly easy to find a video from a random player's 1.0 gameplay and seeing that they have the Chaos Boundary Stone in their inventory like I did.

Having said all of that said though, I'm honestly not very sure that the legend about "Pluto" from DMC1 is in relation to Sparda & Mundus' dispute, and to be even more honest, I don't even think it's talking about the Pluto introduced in Peak of Combat either.

Peak of Combat states that Pluto's sole purpose is to "take over the world and reduce all living things to ashes, turning the living realm into another Underworld and enslaving all humans with suffering and pain." So, why exactly would a demon lord who is hellbent on doing all of this separate the worlds and create an eternal seal so that the worlds could never be separated again as the theory claims? You'd think he would actually very much enjoy the chaos and instability that stemmed from the two worlds being united, on top of the fact that it would make his goals far easier considering the two wouldn't be dimensionally separated altogether. That just doesn't really make any sense to me.

 

[Tony_di_bugalu]

This is pretty much the same thread as last time with some minor changes.

The scan, the raws mentions King of the Underworld as you yourself pointed out. The problem with your little headcanon here is that Mundus wanted the contrary, the manga explicitly says how Mundus wanted to fuse back the worlds that were once one and so he killed "pluto", broke the veil between the world, invaded the human world and literally fused them again. Even the tweet you also used as evidence contradicts your headcanon, the question explicitly is about the book and if Mundus was this demon king (Pluto) to which his answer is no.

Basically it's completely stupid to even think the DMC1 book is talking about Mundus.

As for the Sparda part, the manga has Arkham narrate the events to Vergil as a parallel to Sparda's own prowess as he did something similar 2000 years prior.

Kepekley23 explained it best in the past thread so I'm not going to bother copy-pasting it here.

Now finally, as the others mentioned, Pluto's existence was further solidified by Peak of Combat canonizing his ass. He fits the description of the manga to a T, shows the capabilities in game exactly similar to the ones described in the tales and is stated to be a demon king.

snip

This whole thing about the chaos boundary is absolutely irrelevant because 1) the item doesn't exist anymore or in other words it doesn't hold weight in the current story/canon 2) The manga explicitly states how the ray of light came first and some unknown time later on the world was separated in two. 3) The manga code 1 Dante tells the creation of the world in 2 pages while code 2 vergil takes the time to go in depth when Arkham is telling the story to vergil in order to make a parallel with Sparda.

Peak of Combat states

Did you forget the single little detail of the unknown ton of time that happens between those events? He was killed by Mundus and in true DMC fashion he came back without any explanation to free Medea and **** off to God knows where. His intent in PoC is completely different which can be expected after over 2k years.

Another thing of relevance, as the manga states, is that both worlds were being torn asunder in that primal era of instability until the black horned demon god came in and fixed shit.

It was until another unknown time skip that Mundus came in and proved that both worlds could be united without any problem (except of the human world staying as the human world)


TL;DR:

• The book in DMC 1 is not talking about Mundus
• The name Pluto stuck because it's the only one given to the demon god in question, at least in the english version (which is also used later on for his pet dragon)
• Sparda wasn't the first one to separate the worlds lmao
• PoC Pluto is the exact same one Mundus killed

 

[HammerStrikes219]

contrary, the manga explicitly says how Mundus wanted to fuse back the worlds that were once one and so he killed "pluto", broke the veil between the world, invaded the human world and literally fused them again.

Both scans don’t exactly mention Pluto though and speaking of that Tweet, that seemingly being refuted there.

I don’t really find the Twitter/X statement to being that reliable as it is referring to DMC 1 being used again as well.

 

[HammerStrikes219]

Anyway, outside of that, I think gonna put myself in neutral as there is the POC scan to take into consideration there unless we getting into translation arguments relating to POC regarding that part as well

 

[Robo432343]

we should make a discussion rule on this topic

 

[SuperSonicTL]

Its not even controversial scenerio as the OP demanding it to be whatsoever, y'all just nitpicking things around at this point instead of supporting the lore implications.

 

[Ningenron]

The scan, the raws mentions King of the Underworld as you yourself pointed out. The problem with your little headcanon here is that Mundus wanted the contrary, the manga explicitly says how Mundus wanted to fuse back the worlds that were once one and so he killed "pluto", broke the veil between the world, invaded the human world and literally fused them again.

You might have been in the right if not for the fact that the prophecy isn't talking about literal separation, which still hasn't been addressed.

Plus, there's no evidence that Pluto performed any kind of separation in the main continuity; you guys are just assuming he did without any proof. It's quite hilarious how he's not even mentioned during the biggest event in the franchise, don't you think?

Why would he even bother to separate them? He literally has no reason due do so and the manga headcanon you guys use for him isn't talking about him or any other jazz.

As for the Sparda part, the manga has Arkham narrate the events to Vergil as a parallel to Sparda's own prowess as he did something similar 2000 years prior.

That's a headcanon.

Kepekley23 explained it best in the past thread so I'm not going to bother copy-pasting it here.

Umm, there are many issues with that argument. First off that the translation used there is god awful, making the context ambiguous as hell.

This is established rather readily. Thus:

"During one of the many times the heavens and the earth were consumed with chaos¹, a black-horned demon god appeared. He struck the world with a giant spear to ensure that they² would never again be torn apart."

Literally nothing here actually aligns with the provided raws; an actual accurate translation would be:

At some point/For the umpteenth time, when heaven and earth flipped over again, a demon with black horns appeared; he drove a massive stake into the earth so that the earth would never split again. However, because the stake tried to escape on its own, he bound 'the undying one' to the stake, making it an eternal seal

Like, excuse me? There's no mention of a spear anywhere, nor of being consumed by chaos, nor of striking the world. Not to mention it omits 何度目か, a major point in his argument, since it means 'after some point' or 'for the umpteenth time,' implying it wasn't actually happening during the world's creation or whatsoever even if it was a thing, but after a random period of time.

Sparda and could literally not possibly be Sparda, and this is flat-out shown by the page right before the one with the demon god, which gives us the full story and context behind the event and debunks your assertion that there is no context for how the universes were originally split.

"During the birth of the earth and the heavens, in the instability that followed, countless times turbulence spread in the mix of their borders. The heavens were chaotic and unstable, and the earth was torn apart many times over. The helpless humans could do nothing, and whenever the chaos of heaven poured down on them many lives were lost."

This is the page that comes immediately before the one with the Demon God and sets the context for the rest of the story.

Again, the original text doesn't mention or say anything about the birth of Earth and Heaven; all it's saying is;

In the past, the heavens easily flipped over, and the earth split greatly over and over. Heaven and earth were from birth/inherently unstable, and from their boundary, chaos was produced repeatedly. The panicking people, helpless, lost many lives every time heaven and earth fought

rest of the argument is null since it's based on these translation.

Now finally, as the others mentioned, Pluto's existence was further solidified by Peak of Combat canonizing his ass. He fits the description of the manga to a T, shows the capabilities in game exactly similar to the ones described in the tales and is stated to be a demon king

Just means he's Canon to PoC itself since his lore doesn't fit with your guys lore.

The book in DMC 1 is not talking about Mundus

dunno man, it's being referring to some actual existing character we know about in the main series is far more likely that the guy with only 1 mention in the franchise.

The name Pluto stuck because it's the only one given to the demon god in question, at least in the english version (which is also used later on for his pet dragon)

Just another bad translation; it original text doesn't say Pluto's dragon either, it says Underworld's dragon.

Sparda wasn't the first one to separate the worlds lmao

If you count the light, then yeah, he's the second; otherwise, no, he's the first.

PoC Pluto is the exact same one Mundus killed

who's that random guy in the stream and what kind of authority he got over the franchise though.