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okay i'll call them. ultima & crimson saw no problem with the blog regarding the evidence for qualifying to tier 1. why we need to get their opinions again is beyond me.
They probably missed it, you yourself judge the statement and tell me it means the darkness is infinitely larger than the light
the demon world is already accepted to be infinite anyway, so ask the DMC supporters that did that CRT.
The demon world size been infinite does not mean anything, as a standard universe is supposed to be infinite
 
That's a complete misinterpretation
From the translator or my interpretation
Its called reflection of world
So it is called reflection of world and mirror world

Just because it talks about some particular area doesn't mean doesn't mean it is unreal or imaginary cave
Mirrors aren't unreal or imaginary, I really don't see how the scan is referring to a particular area.
 
From the translator or my interpretation
Your interpretation.
So it is called reflection of world and mirror world
So??
Mirrors aren't unreal or imaginary, I really don't see how the scan is referring to a particular area.
Images created by it are.
I don't know if you have learned/remember about mirrors in physics. But a basic reflection of real object is imaginary object. They have perfect resemblance in size and everything sans the fact that they are reversed. Which is also true about Mirror World in DMC. All area are reversed in game comapared to their Real World counterpart. Only difference is its an actual physical universe you can travel to.

Also HW is a universal Space-time...thus its reflection is also same sized. Thus its also a Low2C realm.
 
From the translator or my interpretation

So it is called reflection of world and mirror world


Mirrors aren't unreal or imaginary, I really don't see how the scan is referring to a particular area.
The long and short of it, is that the “reflection world,” exists in the Demon World, and is completely identical. Thus you have what is essentially stating a universe and space time within another larger space time, which is a roundabout way of saying the Demon World > Human World and as the Human World (which Pain cited as standard being infinite), means is only a fraction within a lower plane of possibility compared to the higher levels of the Demon Realm, they argue and propose that this evidence proves extradimensionality. (Which is consistent with the 4D+ manipulations the verse uses anyway.)
 
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They probably missed it, you yourself judge the statement and tell me it means the darkness is infinitely larger than the light

The demon world size been infinite does not mean anything, as a standard universe is supposed to be infinite
The light exists within the Demon Realm. That’s the point. The light existed as a beam within the endless darkness, (metaphorical or not, it definitely has a “small within large,” connotation), and the reflection world PROVES such an interpretation. It’s a DIRECT COPY of the Light. And that light is merely a sub-level, an after thought, of the true top layers within the Demon Realm. I don’t see how that’s not a direct citation of how the wiki treats it.
 
Fairly certain we need statements of a universe being infinite or else we just assume it’s the size of the observable one.

On topic, I saw someone above say that the Nirvana/Eightfold path stuff isn’t where 9D comes from or smth. If that’s the case, where is it coming from?
 
The light exists within the Demon Realm. That’s the point. The light existed as a beam within the endless darkness, (metaphorical or not, it definitely has a “small within large,” connotation), and the reflection world PROVES such an interpretation. It’s a DIRECT COPY of the Light. And that light is merely a sub-level, an after thought, of the true top layers within the Demon Realm. I don’t see how that’s not a direct citation of how the wiki treats it.
Although I can point out things wrong in this statement but I am too tired to, cause even leaving it still does not mean transcendence
Just so you know the demon realm did not exist until the darkness and light was separated so the light did not exist in the demon realm, the light and darkness existed together until it was separated into two and one became the mortal world and the other the demon realm
 
Just so you know the demon realm did not exist until the darkness and light was separated so the light did not exist in the demon realm, the light and darkness existed together until it was separated into two and one became the mortal world and the other the demon realm
Absolutely wrong.

Demon World was always same as it ever was. Light being born in it and being separated has zero relevance to composition of Demon World.
 
Absolutely wrong.

Demon World was always same as it ever was. Light being born in it and being separated has zero relevance to composition of Demon World.
Oh my bad then I was just following what was given to me I know nothing about DMC aside that I played the game growing up.
Okay so I need to know why everyone seem to think the light is infinitely smaller than the said darkness
Why do I feel Pain is here just because someone was playing with Shiza
This is so accurate 🤣🤣, Well I searched for shinza saw someone mention it, I decided to give the thread a try and saw some things I am pointing out
 
Yeah, let's not talk about definitions of words in this thread and let's stay focused.
 
Actually, it was due UEG transcending endless in her fight, which is just ad infinitum or something, however, Endless by itself means the same thing as Infinite, well, I will stop derailing
yeah yogiri and UEG kept on transcending endlessly and still it was not considered High 1B, but 1B as like it was said endless wont necessarily mean infinite

now back to the main thing

 
yeah yogiri and UEG kept on transcending endlessly and still it was not considered High 1B, but 1B as like it was said endless wont necessarily mean infinite
it wasnt Yogiri and UEG, it was UEG with Toichiro, and it would never be High 1-B even if they used the sentence ''transcending infinitely in the fight'', because it was an ad infinitum process in the context of the novel
 
We already have proof for the sizes since in the manga the demon world was stated to be an endless darkness and the human realm to be only a ray of light and before go around saying "it's vague" we already have the mirror dimension scans to support it
Yeah, I know.
 
Wait so can someone explain again how the eighth fold path is being related to dimensions? I’m a bit confused on it all.
 
Not sold on 1-C, but definitely grounds for bumping the god tiers well above baseline since at minimum the Demon World contains multiple Low 2-C structures. Dunno how the Eightfold Path of Buddhism relates to dimensions
its just me trying to connect the dots on what the statement is most likely referring to. and its not meant to solidify anything on its own. my main argument is that since demons (who are literally souls btw) originate from the primordial chaos which became the demon world then the 9th-dimensional space the soul statement is referring to.
 
Oh my god I go for a day and everything got derailed on tier 2 structures? Can you all stay on topic in regards to what's being discussed? If you don't I'll either start deleting comments that aren't on topic or worse move this to a staff only thread to prevent any derailment. Anyways where was I?

@Sevil Natas So it's based off an assumption, which again doesn't help get a solid rating here. We need more proof that the Lost Souls Nirvana is the actual place, having it be there because assumptions isn't really helping our case, and once again reinforces my point that we should've waited until we got proof on higher dimensional structures in DMC being a part of the demon world to get this in the first place.

Ok, that doesn't again prove anything higher dimensional, it's just proof that they existed prior to the demon world.

I still don't really see how you can get tier 1 on a 9-D SCALE from a couple of random Low 2-C structures, at best you could possibly get Low 1-C, but 9-D you'd need several lower infinite realms of existence to get there.

Forgive me, I wasn't clear on my statement, I meant type 4 and 8 immortality negation. Does Dante have any cutscenes of permanently killing these monsters? Because the lore literally says they resurrect again to hunt down their prey, meaning even if Dante "kills them", they can come back and fight again.

You have one scan saying it can null regen, the other doesn't remotely mention regen nulling, just that it can kill demons, and even so what demons are they exactly killing? The vessels they take over? Because you're not really killing them without affecting their souls. Not only that but 3 of the mainline games contradict them not needing their souls to live when the moment their soul is destroyed they die. Do you have any other showings of demons coming back even if their soul is destroyed? If so that can help with the regen, if this one statement is all you have then It's not helping your case when nothing else in the series backs this up.

That's... not what sealing is though. It just sucks your soul away and that's it, the mission description even says to reclaim the bridge before the soul is lost forever. So idk where you're getting the idea it's sealing. Also it's not a game mechanic thing when you have an entire cutscene on top of mission description flat out showing that Dante is being affected and will die if he fails the mission. The fact he actually dies in devil trigger should you fail is the cherry on top. Go to Sin Scythe paragraph 7. Also this isn't saying Dante's weaker than a demon fodder, this is just proof that especially Sparda heritage demons do not scale to high godly because any time there's showings of their souls being consumed or ripped, they all die instantly.

Again you have one random statement about a demon soul, while we have numerous cutscenes on devil arms, one of them from Cerberus flat out saying it's his own soul, being a 3-D object. This one statement is not enough as it raises way too many questions on what the hell devil arms are supposed to be in the first place, which once again, is why I told you to wait until we got more scans.

@Lightning_XXI Addressed the first comment in my reply to Sevil, I meant dante getting immortality negation, not the demons lacking type 4 and 8.

But do we remotely have any showings of demons flat out regenerating despite their souls being destroyed? Because that's kind of important for them to scale to this level of regen when we've shown no evidence for this. Also this especially is an antifeat for sparda heritage characters since they have anti feats for this.

@GilverTheProtoAngelo I meant negation of immortality, not the demons having immortality, Also are there cutscenes or any statements whatsoever that Dante can permanently end those demons? As in they don't resurrect and do not chase after their prey? If we don't then we can't prove that as the lore literally says they revive to hunt down their prey.

No, they die from their soul being destroyed. That's how Dante kills griffon and Phantom in 5, and Nightmare in both 1 and 5.

All we know of the neogenerator is that it sucks the souls of those who hold it, that's it. No mention of preventing any regeneration from happening or causing permanent wounds that cannot heal. So this contradicts any Sparda heritage characters scaling.

You do realize you're cherry picking right? The enemy files are flat out lore statements for the enemies. And this is the one enemy in the entirety of DMC 1 that has an instant death move regardless of how much health dante has, and it's not an AP attack, it's literally ripping out Dante's soul, and the game itself mentions it as instant death. This and the DMC 3 neo generator makes this way too inconsistent for sparda heritage to have high godly.

Again, these devil arms, on top of nightmare griffon and phantom being shown doesn't help this random statement on how souls function when nothing else in the series back this up. Hence why I kept saying we need to wait until we get more evidence to have this be legit because nothing else in the series backs 9-D demon souls up.
 
and do you have any better interpretation on what the statement is trying to convey by saying "beyond the eightfold path" ppl seem to forget, nirvana is not there to solidify anything, this has to do with the other part which I'll get to now.

Since you ask, yes I do. An unknown higher dimensional realm. That's all, no scaling based on unknown/if/but/could and similar stuff.

I mean, you bring nirvana as if it was the center of the argument to say "yes this is inside the DW" when in reality its the weakest part of the whole argument.

this doesn't contradict anything really. the original chaos which is the initial universe spawned demons. they already existed prior to the demon world becoming a thing. i don't think you understand what the Primordial chaos even is. as the scans suggest the world was born of darkness, said world was a crucible of chaos and was stated to be a "primordial existence" clearly the regen statement is referring to that. it later on became the demon world when the human world was split off of it. so if that initial universe had a 9-dimensional space it would scale to the demon world. since in the manga itself it says "the darkness (referring to the og universe) became the realm of demons" so it would scale to the demon world as well
regarding the name stuff, even if we ignore there's some distinction between the og chaos & the demon world. i still dont buy it. souls can exist without names(human souls for example and those demons that Sparda took their names from) and vice versa just because names predate everything, it wouldn't necessarily mean the souls would also do that. also, the part everyone ignored, is the fact the demon world continues to form demons which are souls to this day. meaning it hasn't lost this "higher dimension"

And that's why I said the whole interpretation is the main argument here. It contradicts/changes/retcons what we knew. I already explained why so im not gonna bother typing the same thing. The point here is that, as you saw in the discord argument, this shit can be interpreted differently, there are like 5 of them right now iirc, with mine being the darkness and the demon world are all the same, not transformation, no becoming something over time, nothing. Its just the same thing with different names but now with something new in the form of some primordial chaos that mind you even poc differentiates from the demon world

If we take PoC at face value then the darkness (demon world) and this primordial chaos are different shit. We don't know if they are connected or if the demon world is just an infinitely small part of it or if the demon world is just a stain floating in a larger universe. Just that this chaos precedes reality (what reality? idk)

In any case the demon world won't scale to this shit.

regarding the name stuff, even if we ignore there's some distinction between the og chaos & the demon world. i still dont buy it. souls can exist without names(human souls for example and those demons that Sparda took their names from) and vice versa just because names predate everything, it wouldn't necessarily mean the souls would also do that.

Did you forget the part where only Demon names exist as that concept shit? why would human souls have the same conceptual stuff or anything similar to demons? There is also the fact that Souls are supposed to be Names with more shit added.

But ignoring that if demons can exist without names and just as souls then they aren't related which is further shown with the same scan for High-Godly regen as it separates names from souls and body (a contradiction neatly done by PoC itself).

In short, chose your poison either names and souls are related or they aren't (thanks PoC) I'm here just to enjoy the show. In any case Names seem to hold more weight considering even the mighty Mundus kept his name after discarding everything else in the alternate universe.

There is nothing indicating the souls were created by the demon world btw, the scan even says how the chaos spawned demons and the demon world gave them form which can easily be interpreted as the chaos farting names and souls and the demon world giving them bodies.

also, the part everyone ignored is the fact the demon world continues to form demons which are souls to this day. meaning it hasn't lost this "higher dimension

I don't remember any single scan saying the demon world is farting demons into existence or that it has ever created demons, just that it can corrupt humans and make them demons (which once again is hax) and this is literally far from having some "higher dimension" existence shit.

No they have been equated, in the first scans even. "the world was born of darkness, unending darkness, a crucible of chaos, but even to that primordial existence there came in a ray of light" you could infer that if you read the damn thing in chronological order. and yes that does prove that demon world dimensions are transcendent.

how can you write that with a straight face ignoring every single scan where the demon world is called darkness? Anyways, your only argument for the chaos and the darkness being the same is the line of "a crucible of chaos" which is too little to useless. There are more scans talking about some chaos and pandemonium tearing apart the earth but we don't equate that to some primordial chaos either.

You can read the same pages in chronological order too and find them lacking as ****, you start with the creation of the human world, jump to how each world is named and a single line saying they were separated or some shit while the next page immediately jumps to Mundus wanting to fuse them again. Thanks to the second part some of the lore here was filled but that's not relevant for the thread.

as stated by the tiering system FAQ right here

I'm pretty sure I said it in my first post but this shit would only get you to Low 1-C AKA 5D, not 9D.

btw you even kinda agreed with the darkness being the demon world "the human word at the point of its creation was only a ray of light to the infinite darkness of the OG universe / DW" now you only need to figure out where chaos fits in all this.


TL;DR: tier 1 soul hax, nothing about raw power or existence level or transcendence or anything relevant for the demon world, the chaos and the darkness (the demon world) aren't the same thing so if the chaos scales the demon world won't. Souls and names either are the same thing or they aren't and we nuke the concept shit for souls.


@Lightning_XXI

The quote very clearly states that it goes beyond the island with "The mirror that reflects this world"

The quote just says that it reflects this world, we have nothing else to work here and considering this thing is supposed to be in between the demon world and the human world makes me question what he really means, heck even in Vol 2, the planet is refereed as "the world" despite it being used numerous times to talk about the human universe but unlike here, those times had proper context behind it. There is also the fact that the Island has a big ass connection to the demon world that the rest of the human world lacks

With that and the fact that entering it is a path to another time and space, I see no reason to assume it isn't a L2C structure

It's not necessarily a path to another time and space, its just a portal to another place. A portal from my home to china is "a window in time and space". Same world, same words, same use. Btw iirc the watcher of time doesn't work there which could imply time doesn't exist there either but that could be more headcanon on my part than actual arguments.

This is a very important part on Sevil's side because by being a mere subset of the DW, it helps to showcase some features that higher dimensional realms would normally do against L2C dimensions. Sevil linked the Tiering System page instead of the FAQ, this is what you should read in order to better understand his intentions and how to counter them if you can, of course

I mentioned this above and in my first post but this shit at best gets you Low 1-C/5D, not 9D or some other random tier.
 
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