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Who is the most skilled character in fiction?

Copy pasted from another thread

Contentio
I would throw in Sasaki Kojiro from Record of Ragnarok into contention. Reasoning below:

Thousand Image Defense
Sasaki Kojiro has spent his entire life, and a good portion of his time in Heaven, honing his natural skill for 'visualizing' opponents (in order to fight and best them without actually fighting) and perfected it into the Thousand Image Defense. Summed up, he mentally simulates every single eventuality in battle against a perso based on analyzing their combat style (or even simply how they walk, breathe, and hold themselves if they're not being kind enough to show off for Sasaki).

Of note, this is all 100% innate skill and not something esoteric. He just is this goddamn good, good enough to dodge or deflect hundreds of attacks that are explicitly FTE to him from an opponent moving so fast their afterimages form a dome around Sasaki

He can also utilize it offensively as a form of combat precog, seeing the next attack from a massively FTE-to-him opponent and actually attack back in a timeframe such that his foe is nearly caught offguard, and also being able to weave through FTE attacks by the dozen to blitz his superior foe. The god of war, Ares, also comments that Sasaki is actively reading thousands of steps ahead in the midst of combat

Also, there's the fact that Sasaki can use this ability and 'Scan' things without even sight, and scans all of creation at once, proclaiming himself capable of copying even the techniques of Gods after a single battle with Poseido

Nito Ganryu Style
Sasaki in his life was canonically a single-sword wielder, preferring an overly large nodachi. However, in death, he kept using his image-training to copy the man who bested him in battle, Miyamoto Musashi, and emulate him so well that the man's own son believed Sasaki was Miyamoto

Sasaki also has, according to Miyamoto (whom most other swordsman thought was Humanity's best representative of 'Swordmaster' against the Gods in this tournament), perfectly burned every swordstyle of every opponent he's ever faced into his Nito Ganryu Style, exceeding the point of being mere 'imitation'

Summatio
Sasaki Kojiro, a 9-B combatant, is capable of perfectly copying techniques with mental image-training, can dodge hundreds if not thousands of FTE blows at once with his Thousand Image Defense, and generally he's never going to be hit by a foe unless said foe is so absurdly faster than Sasaki that his seeing thousands of attacks ahead in combat and perfectly knowing, for a fact, what his opponent is about to do will not aid him.

Further, unless his foe is somehow immune to....skill in general??....Sasaki is going to slowly start stealing their techniques for his own, and simply surpass them. Sasaki only needs them to exist and his scanning prowess will apply, seeing how as eyesight isn't even necessary.

For all these reasons, I think Sasaki should be in contention for most skilled
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Information Analysis to the point of knowing the martial art with a glance may be argued otherwise but improving the whole thing beyond is skill.
Click to expand...
If you'll read my comment again, I never said it wasn't. My argument for that particular part of the feat was that it's not nearly as impressive as Earl is making it out to be. Which it is not.

The part which I was arguing was not a skill feat was, in fact, the Information Analysis.

Doesn't really matter if the skill is something not possible in real-life. That doesn't nullify it as a skill. It's done physically with hard-work within the verse. It's a skill. Hell, most of the skills fictional characters do aren't possible.
A supernatural power that the author is attempting to pass off as a realistic skill-based action seems to fall under the nonsense that the OP is ignoring, from what I can tell. And frankly, people were arguing about it being ridiculous to include such abilities as showings of skill much earlier in the thread, so I'm definitely not the only one who's come to that conclusion.

And again, even if we do use those kinds of feats, that just opens the door for characters with far more nonsensical "skill feats that aren't actually skill feats" than what Ikki has shown.
 
Xulrev said:
Of note, this is all 100% innate skill and not something esoteric. He just is this goddamn good, good enough to dodge or deflect hundreds of attacks that are explicitly FTE to him from an opponent moving so fast their afterimages form a dome around Sasaki
He can also utilize it offensively as a form of combat precog, seeing the next attack from a massively FTE-to-him opponent and actually attack back in a timeframe such that his foe is nearly caught offguard, and also being able to weave through FTE attacks by the dozen to blitz his superior foe.
Click to expand...
What in the goddamn...
 
Like I said I could say the same for literally any fictional "skill" under the premise they aren't possible in real-life physically or whatever. The OP is ignoring "experience" and "conceptual" things specifically because they can be unquantifiable or cause an unfair advantage. "Thousands of years honing one skill" doesn't really tell us how good he is at it but we tend to presume he'd be exceptional at it of course but how do we weight it up against actual skill feats? "The Embodiment of Skill was defeated by John" type shit which no one wants to deal with.

You do realise the OP says "combat-applicable skills". I find Ikki's cognition to be a combat applicable skill. If you want to argue it isn't I could just say the cognition this dude uses for his guns isn't a skill either to steel-man that point.
 
'
~ What in the goddamn...​
Yeah Sasaki is a bit absurd. But you kinda have to be when you're fighting the Gods so humanity can survive, it turns out.
 
The real cal howard said:
Nobody mentioned Batman why?
Click to expand...
He deserves an honourable mention for sure. Way too skilled for a normal human being

Feats
ENDURANCE Batman (Vol. 2) #52 features a flashback to a trip that Bruce took to Canada during the winter. At this point in time, Bruce was testing himself in every way imaginable, doing everything he could to prepare for his inevitable crime-fighting career.

Batman (Vol. 2) #9 Naturally, when he came upon a waterfall, he undressed and stood in the sub-zero water -- apparently, completely unaffected. That wasn't the first time in the series that Bruce was seen brushing off the extreme cold. Bruce battled Talon while the air temperature was dropping below -20 F.

Detective Batman (Vol. 2) #23 ENDURES 28-HOUR GAUNTLET At the age of 24, Bruce is participating in a single gauntlet where a new fighter is added every hour. However, because Bruce refuses to take a life, he keeps fighting, presumably until he falls in action or until there are not more contestants left for him to fight. Eventually, Bruce's indomitable will is enough to deter any more fighters from entering the contest.

Batman Eternal Deacon Blackfire and his minions had captured Batman and attempted to turn him into a true believer. Indoctrinated, beaten, starved, and having gone a week without sleep, it looked as if Batman would break any minute. However, just the opposite happened. Despite the harsh conditions, Batman dug deep for the strength to break the metal duct that he'd been tied to


COMBAT FEATS

The Dark Knight Returns (Vol. 1) #4 Defeated Superman although with help from Green Arrow

Batman (Vol. 1) #469 Edmund Dorrance, aka King Snake, was the master martial artist that fathered and trained the man who'd eventually break Batman -- Bane. In his day, despite being blind, King Snake earned the title of "The Most Dangerous Man Alive" due to his mastery over several lethal fighting styles. Batman finally went head-to-head with the blind master while aboard a ship. The Dark Knight wiped the floor with King Snake, despite the latter having the advantage thanks to a pitch black room.

Defeated Prometheus (essentially an inverted Batman) After gaining access to the JLA headquarters, Prometheus took apart the Justice League, one by one, even initially besting Batman in hand-to-hand combat. However, in a rematch, Batman outsmarts Prometheus by reprogramming the helmet responsible for the villains fighting prowess

Dark Nights: Metal Defeated The Batman Who Laughs, the Batman of Earth-22 who became a supervillain possessing the most formidable qualities of both Batman & Joker

Shadow of the Bat (Vol. 1) #4 TAKES OUT HIS ENTIRE ROGUES GALLERY Batman was locked in Arkham Asylum and Jeremiah's sent Batman's entire rogues' gallery after him. Joker, Scarecrow, Two-Face, Riddler, Mad Hatter, Poison Ivy, and more all rush Batman at once. Batman emerges from the pile-up with little more than a torn costume. Unleashing a flurry of attacks on his enemies, laying waste to the whole lot of them before resuming his pursuit of Jeremiah.

Batman Eternal (Vol. 1) #51 Broke eight of Cluemaster's bones with a single punch.

Batman Confidential (Vol. 1) #53 where he manages to single-handedly take out the Justice League in a one vs. five fight.

Detective Comics (Vol. 1) #726 The story sees Batman desperately searching for a missing child, which eventually leads him to the Joker's cell in Arkham Asylum. Batman leaped onto a boat with more than 40 armed gangsters and proceeded to take out the entire bunch.

Batman (Vol. 1) #656 HOLDS OFF LEGION OF MAN-BATS Batman fended off the legions of man-bats, incapacitating many, before eventually succumbing due to the sheer quantity of man-bats. However, later efforts, In Batman (Vol. 1) #664, he makes easy work of the man-bats

SPEED

Dodged bullets of Deadshot, who's supposed to have the best aim in the DCU.

Comics (Vol. 1) #804 After chasing down Mr. Freeze, Batman senses a sniper's bullet whizzing in the air and manages to dodge it.

Batman R.I.P. SWITCHES CUP ON THE BLINK OF AN EYE

Bruce had with a Tibetan monk following the Thogal ritual. The monk, working for Dr. Hurt, poisons Bruce's cup of tea. Mid-conversation, the monk reveals that Bruce has two minutes to live. Bruce calmly replies that he switched the cups when the monk blinked, allowing him to feel the initial effects of the poison before administering the antidote.

CONQUERED FEAR Batman (Vol. 1) #673, Batman reveals that he underwent Thogal during the period following Infinite Crisis. The Thogal ritual, an extreme and dangerous form of meditation derived from the Tibetan tradition, is a 49-day simulation of one's demise over and over again, leading into a rebirth. Bruce isolates himself within a cave for seven weeks, going through the ritual in an effort to eliminate every last trace of fear in him.

Batgirl (Vol. 1) #7, Bruce gives Batgirl an instructional CD that he made on 127 different martial arts. In Detective Comics (Vol. 1) #411, the narrator simply says that Batman has mastered all fighting arts.
 
Kay, so...

Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Sasaki has everyone else on this list severely outclassed. By a country mile or so.

Vash isn't competing with that, that's for sure...
 
Creation is all of Heaven and our actual real life universe. For Heaven, no given size actually but a single stadium is able to fit all of Humanitys dead up until the present year (actual real life year) inside of it, and the stadium is shown as tiny compared to the surrounding mountains and terrain.
 
Firephoenixearl said:
That feels more like luck not skill. Considering the futures do take into account skill, even with his skill there was only 1/1 mil where he would have won. Kind of like the avengers pulling the practically non existent win on thanos.
Click to expand...
He effectively did it with Precognition. I don't think it's any less impressive than Sasaki's Thousand Image Defense technique. A 40k expert would explain better
 
Well yeah Eldrad used Precognition to see millions of futures. And in those millions of futures Abaddon destroyed him and his comrades but he saw one possibility wherein he won against Abaddon. So he just followed through and "grasped" the future and defeated Abaddon.
 
MrKingOfNegativity said:
Yeah, I'm going to go out on a limb and say that Sasaki has everyone else on this list severely outclassed. By a country mile or so.
Click to expand...
Mori literally fought someone with both precognition and power mimicry wearing a suit of armour he could not damage.

He only beat him through skill and experience. Yes experience. Shocking, I know, but Mori took advantage of Dean's inexperience with using his abilities and turned the tables on him. Proving that experience can come into play when discussing skill feats.
 
Yeah sure it does but you can't really quantify the vast majority experience statements. "I trained vehemently for thousands of years to perfect the ultimate sword technique beyond human understanding".

I hope you aren't asserting all characters will make mistakes that more experienced characters wouldn't because it varies. Sure I agree it can come into play but it depends.
 
Oven, taking advantage of someone's inexperience is not the same as experience.

And experience matters, it just can't be quantified. Saying "my character has 10k years of experience" means nothing out of verse.
 
Ikki basically does the same vizualization (he did this before the fight with Stella and even against Byakuya Jougasaki where they both analyzed the battle from start to finish and both knew who would win and exactly when that win would happen). As for the precognition, let's start one by one. So first is the information gathering:

As if stealing the principles of its invention from its tricks, expose the patterns of thinking from the words and the voice. And then from everything there, investigating the previous degree of piercing's tendency, the personality, technique, design, by integrating, analyzing, understanding, exhausting data on all kinds of things―grasp everything about the person called Shizuya Kirihara!

And just some more:

As if her clothes, skin, and muscles were being read fiber by fiber, her every little act was being studied. And from that gaze, she realized that Ikki was trying to understand the Imperial Arts from her movements.

"My sword style isn't so simple that you can see through it easily!"

"…No, I already got it."

He also analyzes everything from his opponent, the personality, voice, design etc to grast the "identity of someone". So i would call them equal in this regard, sure, now the precog is where it differs:

Whether it's sword technique or people, there's a principle that fundamentally governs all their actions. You can call it a system of values. By using that―the person's actions and plans, what that person is thinking right now, how I myself should move, what countermeasures should be taken, whether to move forward or draw back, to attack or defend―every possible action is completely and quite clearly predictable. For example, at this moment, I know that you've taken three steps back."

Kirihara's body froze in fright at Ikki's light declaration, and he leaked out a soundless shriek, because what Ikki had said was unmistakably true. But of course Ikki could know Kirihara's response. The principle he spoke of wasn't a notion limited to the here and now. That predictability of human thought was a firmly-rooted identity, not something that could be changed in an instant. However much the person himself wants to outsmart that identity, even the thought of outsmarting it arises from the identity itself, and therefore couldn't escape Ikki's perception. By stealing the opponent's identity, Ikki seized all those thoughts and feelings.

If Ikki had to name this technique, it would be Perfect Vision. Before its power, Kirihara finally understood. The true dreadfulness of the knight called Ikki Kurogane wasn't sword technique, a one-minute boost, or anything else like that. It was his ability to expose and reflect the true nature of everything he sees, a discerning eye like a shining magic mirror. That mirror could capture even the invisible Hunter. Therefore―

"I see everything you're capable of doing. In this match, I'll take the win!"

Ikki is capable of actually seeing all the possible actions someone can take, they are all predictable but unlike Sasaki who just knows the possible routes, Ikki knows exactly which of those moves Kirihara will make, an ability that can't be fooled as everything stems from identity. So the difference here is Ikki does what Sasaki can, but he takes it a step further and doesn't stop at just knowing the possible routes, but he also knows the true routes, not to mention that as stated he also understands the thoughts and feelings of someone along with their actions and possible moves. So basically he knows everything regarding a certain person. There is more to it, but i'll mention it below.

So you say he was capable of dodging or reflecting hundreds of attacks. Well Ikki did the same except he predicted shots that didn't even have a clear intent as they were just carpet bombing the place rather than being shot directly at him from his opponent:

There was no pattern to the destruction. The Noble Art Million Rain was an attack of indiscriminate scope made of more than a hundred pieces of iron. Kirihara had concluded that if his thoughts were being read, he should carpet-bomb the area without thinking. The idea had to be correct, but even so―

"Why!? Why doesn't it hit!?"

―Ikki cleared away the invisible arrowheads, running through the destructive rain without slowing the slightest and darting through the rolled-up cloud of dust. In truth, he had already seen all of it.

"It's useless, you know. No matter how much you try to keep your heart clear, you want to beat me. You want to kill me. The urge for that frightened heart to shout its killing intent can't be restrained. No matter how much you want to attack with an unreadable mind, the killing intent dwells inside you."

So while both dealt with a huge amount of attacks, Ikki dealt with attacks that were not from his enemy directly, which means said attacks literally didn't have any thinking, yet ikki could still see through this (said attacks and the user were all unperceivable by all 5 senses iirc cus they used the concept of hunting) and deflect them.

The analyzation point. That is definitely good, but Ikki already does all of that, the vibration of the air thing, even notices abnormalities in sound waves. As for the last point it seems like it's just a heavy hyperbole. As analyzing the air and trembles of the earth doesn't really equate to analyzing all of creation, so it's just a hyperbole to say that "he was analyzing everything there". Cus that line feels the same as saying "he cut appart every building in the area, and the multiverse along with them". It goes from normal stuff to complete batshit crazy without further context. So since it's just a questionable statement it's best to wait until it has more elaboration or an actual feat.

Nito Ganryu
That is the same thing Ikki did to Stella in their first fight, where stella herself was seeing her own self in ikki's attacks. And the kid believing it was his father seems the same as Tsunade seeing Minato and Jiraya when Naruto came out to fight Pain.

Ikki has also copied and perfected every single style he's come across. And not just Katana styles, everything, odachi, kodachi, spears, longswords, rapiers and even uses those techniques on his katana. But to go even further beyond on what ikki means by copying here:

At that time, Kuro-bou saw and stole the princess's Imperial Arts, but stealing a sword technique isn't an ordinary feat like imitating a style. From something like a style or swordsmanship, the accumulated history is studied, taking the ideas arrived there, and exposing and returning with the principle of its foundation. That's what we call stealing a sword technique.


Swordsmanship describes its own knowledge, style describes its own history, and breathing describes its own principle. If one followed the branches and leaves of a sword style and arrived down at the root, then it wouldn't be hard to grasp that style's techniques and combinations, or its approach in facing different situations. This was what Ikki was saying.

"And if I can understand the style that far, I can also create techniques that outperform my opponent's."

What was the ultimate way to surpass an opponent's sword style? Simply correct all the flaws of that style to create a more perfect one, and the new would be plainly superior to the old. The new style would account for all the old style's faults, and even compensate for its weaknesses. It would eclipse its precursor in every offensive and defensive situation.

And as the quote above says besides copying a style, he also perfects the style in every way making it superior to the previous user. Furthermore he copies parts of styles that even the original user did not know such as when he copied Ten I Muhou by analyzing Ayase even though Ayase herself couldn't perform the technique.
 
Just a heads up for the OP. Khorne is kinda the concept of war, blood, fighting pretty much anything physical and painful. That isn't related to torture, pleasure and whatnot but with war and combat.
 
KGiffoni said:
I'd say Ikki, i could be wrong tho
Click to expand...
The thing to remember on Ikki, that's not all he can do. He still has his stupidly long list of other skills i didn't mention, these were just the skills that Sasaki has, that Ikki happens to have as well. He's not limited to these whereas Sasaki is.
 
Also, for a few added things. You speak as if there was no intent in Kirihara's Million Rain, but the point of what Ikki is saying seems to be that that is bullshit. Kirihara wants to kill him, wants to end him, and that killing intent can't be dressed by acting crazy. So he isn't acting crazy, no matter how much he tries to act or think like he is, there is a method to his madness.

His own reading makes this clear, "However much the person himself wants to outsmart that identity, even the thought of outsmarting it arises from the identity itself, and therefore couldn't escape Ikki's Perception", I do not think I need to signal how this obviously relates to Kirihara's thought process affecting his actions no matter how much he may try it not to. Otherwise, we would be trying to say Ikki used his skill to grasp someone's identity to read their attacks without any identity and thought, and that Kirihara sucessfully made an attack without any thought put into it despite the narration explicitly mentioning this would be born from your own identity regardless so there's still a pattern. Ikki is indeed dealing with dozens of projectiles, but they don't lack a pattern. Kirihara just think they do, unless the feat is gonna contradict the explanation of the technique and how it works on the very first instance where its used.

And it is not an hyperbole, it just isn't as wide reaching as literally all creation. We do see that Sasaki is reading everything as far as the entire arena and using every single bit of it to analyze his opponent.

And no, the kid seeing his dad is not a "Naruto and Minato" thing, he literally thought for a second he was seeing his dad then tries to defend himself in typical childish way saying Kojirou's version is a pale imitation, which it obviously isn't.

In these two things I see them more or less equal, Ikki just pulls ahead since he has a good number of other stuff he can do on top.
 
Yeah I agree. He still had killing intent and actually "stopping your identity" is impossible. Everything you do is apart of your identity even if you do something outlandish that you wouldn't normally do.
 
Yeah but it didn't have "thought". He specifically attacked without thinking, however ikki could still deduce everything because he knows everything about his identity which would mean even when he's acting crazy or getting new moves out, cus as Ikki said he deduced because Kirihara couldn't hide his killing intent, so it was still obvious where he would attack when carpet bombing i guess.

That's what i said though. A hyperbole that is there to mean "he was analyzing everything", and not literally "scanned all of creation". So the "all of creation" part isn't legit as it doesn't literally reach all of creation.

Well the naruto case was more he was ideally or sth like that, but yeah that was just to say that "he was using the exact moves from the copy".

Yeah, i even said above they are about the same in these 2 regards, while i would put Ikki a bit above especially on the precognition part (as in Perfect Vision > Thousand Image Defense), due to the fact that ikki understands literally everything including techniques he hasn't seen and even thoughts, feelings and intent and deduces the true routes from all the possible routes instead of leaving it at just the possible routes, it's still in the same ballpark.

So all agree Ikki for 1st then?
 
So he did the very same thing that the narration said you can't do and also made Ikki dodge an attack that had nothing of the thing Ikki uses to dodge in the first place? There are no new moves out, there's no acting crazy, that is the whole point. Being random is not random, Kirihara just thinks it is, but is all still decided by his identity. No random attack is being dodged here. There comes a point where I have to ask what are you doing if the narration is being incredibly blatant and you still say its not that.

But all creation is not a range thing, is my point. It was literally meant to mean everything, not just his opponent. It's a number of objects, not a range.

Not really? You see Kojirou say "I saw this just a second ago", to an attack from Poseidon hadn't showed but he had seen in his mental recollection. He also later on does this again with closed eyes, obviously not knowing what's coming. I don't see this possible route and true route stuff either at any point. He's maping out the exact moves he will take thousands of moves in advance by the end.

Nop, Khorne is still first.
 
That's what im saying "even acting crazy or trying to act random is still part of identity". So he may not think of what he's doing, but that's also part of identity, that's what i mean. So we're practically saying the same thing, but differently.

Oh, you mean it like that? Yeah fair enough i guess that would be similar to what im saying.

The thing is, Sasaki specifically says he fights his opponent a TON of times in his mind which means he knows all the possible futures (kind of like Yhwach i guess). Ikki says:

every possible action is completely and quite clearly predictable. For example, at this moment, I know that you've taken three steps back

So it's more of "i can deduce what you'll do before you do" while Sasaki is "i know everything you can do, so im basically prepared for anything". It's just Ikki taking this a step further especially with this part:

By using that―the person's actions and plans, what that person is thinking right now, how I myself should move, what countermeasures should be taken, whether to move forward or draw back, to attack or defend

Khorne gets yeeted by virtue of having literally just 1 "conceptual feat" and OP even says no.
 
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