@Antvasima; I will try to summarize everything for you and others.
A) So in the beginning, Deagon gave some scans against my argument for Nabu~Unbound Spectre. This is his
first scan. He's claiming because Kent said the power of Nabu was nothing to the Spectre's, Spectre is superior. First issue with this is that Kent wasn't referring to Nabu alone, he was referring to Nabu hosted by him. We know this because:
1: Kent was fighting Spectre, and he said this statement based on how
he fought against Spectre. So it wouldn't make sense for him to refer to a hostless Nabu, as he has no knowledge over how Nabu would do. Kent says clearly-
It's as I feared! Even the power of Nabu is no match for the wrath of the Spectre!
Kent is clearly saying Nabu's power is nothing for the Spectre, in the fight, because
he can't fight properly. It wouldn't make sense for him to confirm Nabu alone cannot do anything, as Nabu was not even fighting. He could have only confirmed his fears based on how he is able to fight. So for this, Kent was referring to Nabu hosted by him.
2: Spectre says this clearly-
You are a Lord of Order, incarnated in the human form of Kent Nelson--and that is your weakness.
Spectre
explicitly and clearly says that Fate's weakness here was that he was hosted by a human and is not as powerful as True Nabu. So again, the scan was a reference to Fate(Kent) and not Nabu.
3: Spectre himself said Kent is nearly as powerful as him
So Spectre cannot be vastly above Fate, if Spectre was infinitely superior, he wouldn't have called Kent relative.
So in conclusion, Deagon's statement only applies to Fate, not Nabu.
B) Onwards to my next point, Deagon showed
this scan, where Fate called Spectre the most powerful being in creation. The first issue is that, we have no evidence this "creation" refers to the Map. Creation could refer to the Orrery as well, and actually, I can't remember a single instance of "creation" being used to refer to the Map before the Metal era. We have evidence for creation referring to the Orrery though, plenty of times.
The first example is the Multiversity Map, which also directly places the Lords of Order above Creation. If you cannot see it, WonderWorld was stated to orbit creation in the Map(WW orbits the Orrery) and Order was explicitly placed above it-
The second example of Creation=Orrery comes from Final Crisis-
That should be enough for now.
The second issue is that, I never argued Nabu is more powerful than Spectre, I only argued Nabu is relative to Spectre. So Spectre can be more powerful than him and my point stands.
So conclusion? Fate wasn't necessarily referring to Nabu, and even if he was, that wouldn't change my point.
I will also add that by wiki rules, feats>statements. So the above statement, even if it supported Deagon, wouldn't go against me, as that's a statement which is contradicted by a feat supporting me.
C) Next up, he argued that because Nabu said "
Why is it taking you so long to kill me, Spectre? You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days, you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself -- where did all that magic you captured actually go?", that Spectre can crush Nabu in an instant. The issue with this, is that the magic Nabu is referring to is an
amp onto Spectre's base power. Before Nabu fought him,
Spectre had been killing all the Lords of Order and Chaos. In the end, before his fight with Nabu, Spectre managed to kill everyone except Nabu, the most powerful Lord of the ninth age of magic
Onto Deagon's scan, Nabu was actually saying
this magic, that he got from the Lords was absorbed by Eclipso. Nabu says clearly-
But you have devoured so much raw magic over the past few days. You should have been able to crush me in an instant.
Spectre then says-
Nabu was very explicitly talking about the amp in magic Spectre received. He talks about how much raw magic Spectre devoured over the past few days, which can only refer to the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre then says he destroyed that magic. So did he destroy his base form?
The conclusion is very simple. Nabu's statements have no relations to how they can fight in base. Nabu was only referring to how Spectre would crush him when Spectre had his own powers amped by the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre had his usual powers in his fight and yet Nabu was able to match him.
D) Deagon's next argument is that Spectre killed him in the fight, and so that he's superior. The issue with this is that Nabu purposefully died. He came there to
let Spectre kill him so that the ninth age of magic ends and wouldn't linger on. This is so that the a fresh tenth age of magic begins, and
because The Presence would give Spectre a new host, meaning he wouldn't continue rampaging across existence. And even during this incident, when Nabu wanted to die, Spectre didn't easily kill him,
he had to grasp everywhere at once to get just the amount of magic needed to kill Nabu.
The alternative to Nabu dying was
Nabu managing to convince Spectre to stop his rampage and make him see reason, after which they would both work together restore the ninth age. This actually only supports my point, as this shows Nabu was possibly holding back but definitely did not want to win or genuinely fight. If Nabu managed to beat Spectre, the outcome would overall be against the world, since a broken ninth age would continue to prevail. So Nabu wanted to either reason with Spectre or die. Neither options led him to victory. The reasoning part obviously failed though, so Nabu kept on
angering Spectre, until he lost all reason and control-
It works! The last vestige of his reason and control snaps!
Nabu throughout the fight was trying to trigger Spectre as much as possible so Spectre kills him, and even when Spectre pushed himself beyond to his utmost limits, Nabu didn't instantly die,
rather, he continued talking,
a LOT,
and even managed to give away his helment. So Nabu is consistently relative to Spectre, and him dying doesn't prove anything.
E) He said Unbound Spectre has "possibly higher" because the Presence can give Spectre more power. However, where is it stated that's the reason Spectre has it? I would like to see evidence.
Alright, so that's all for the Nabu section. Now let's get to BWL!
F) Deagon is arguing Mar Novu was weakened when BWL fought him. For this, I don't feel like explaining again so I will just link to this-
The only indication of the Monitor being weakened is him getting fragmented into Nil Monitors. That's all you have presented, and that's all there is to my knowledge. There's no indication something else weakened him, and to assume so would be just that, assuming.
So with that established, the Monitor could only have been weakened as much as the totality of the powers of the Monitors he was splitted into. If we split the number 10000 into 1000 and a 100, the value of the "new 10000" would be (10000-(1000+100)), that is, 8900. Similarly, we subtract the totality of the powers of the Monitors from normal Mar Novu to get the value of his power while weakened.
The Monitors are 4-B, and a finite number of them exists. So the totality of all their powers would also be finite, as 4-B itself is finite. Mar Novu on the other hand, is Tier 2. That's uncountably(uncountable infinity) above finity. So, we subtract finity from uncountable infinity, and this returns us uncountable infinity as any finite number subtracted from infinity returns infinity.
So the Monitor retains Tier 2. To be less than Tier 2, he had to have been weakened by an uncountably infinite amount, which is not possible when a finite number of Nil Monitors exist and each has a finite power.
His response to this has problems like usual. For example, he responded to my second paragraph with-
Nope, total assumption. There is no indication of this whatsoever in the comic.
However, my first paragraph was all about establishing why the comic does indicate this. Each of my paragraphs were a build-up to the next, they don't work if you ignore the previous paragraph. So his counter here makes no sense. If he's trying to suggest Mar Novu was weakened beyond the Monitors, he will need to explain what other than the Monitors fragmenting from him weakened him. If he cannot explain, assuming something other than the Monitors weakened Mar would be a
total assumption. On the other hand, if he's saying the Monitors fragmenting from Mar weakened him more than the totality of their power, by an uncountably infinite amount, he will have to explain and prove that. It's an extraordinary claim. Using my previous analogy, if 10000 loses a 100 and a 1000, it's not going to reduce to 8000, it's going to reduce to 8900. The 900 doesn't go missing. If this is indeed Deagon's claim, I would like to know what happened to Mar's "900"(an uncountable infinity in his case, to be more precise)?
If he's claiming neither of these, I would like him to explain what exactly he's claiming. I will then write a suitable counter or concede.
I think that's the only counter for BWL he presented, if there's any counter I missed for BWL or Nabu other than the ones above, let me know and I will address it.
Now as for my last words-
1: Corrigan cannot keep his "superior to Nabu" under any circumstance. He was never shown to be on Nabu's level and we have actually seen Kent being relative to him and Nabu being relative to Unbound Spectre.
2: Deagon wrote this counter-
Well the reason we have it for Spectre is because of his varying power level. Even throughout the fight the variability of his power is mentioned. He has to muster up enough energy with which to kill Nabu. It's possibly higher because he can keep gathering more magic (Nabu stated if he had access to the magic he'd been collecting throughout the event he'd have crushed Nabu instantly) but Nabu doesn't have that variability.
As I explained before, the extra magic he had gathered was an amp to his base power. So that wouldn't count, we don't give characters a higher rating just because they
can gather extra power from others. We would just give them Absorption hax or something. If it's a permanent amp, we would give them a separate key or remove their unamped form from the page entirely if it only lasted for a few small time(like in the case of The Darkest Knight, we removed his "Pre-Crisis Energy" key).
That's all!
