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Come now. There's no need to cut at me like that. I do think an important aspect of this whole thing is identifying a joke and identifying a legitimate attempt to add lore to the universe. Let's not toss the baby out with the bathwater.
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Time to fit the (literal) god of DC comics as well as the others in our new tiering system
- Thread starter I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die
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What do you get when you perform multi-Potara Fusion of a writer avatar on Animal Man, a few separate completely unrelated other plot-manipulating characters and and a specific, unlikely interpretation of a single line in a 2009 interview by Grant Morrison that the rest of the interview blatantly goes against?
To me, nothing. To lots of people, apparently, a Tier 0 entity - a hidden one, so subtle as to actually lack any in-universe evidence he exists and is meant to be the supreme being.
Some may think I'm being aggressive to the profile and those who believe in it, but that's not it. My biggest problem with the profile is the utter lack of evidence. Search all Tier 0 profiles. Every single character who is Tier 0, High 1-A, 1-A, anything - every single one of those are clearly explained in the story, their nature is explained, they are mentioned. "The Writer" is the only case of a supreme entity in this site whose existence is never acknowledge in the series, not even by characters who gained the ability to interact with the "meta". There was an entire storyline that Grant Morrison himself said was all about Writers in relation to the Overvoid, and the Comics themselves. Throughout this story, the Writers are the Monitors, beings that are subservient to the Overvoid and created by him, literally as a meta-boundary betwee the Comic Page and the white canvas used to draw said page. Never once are the Writers implied to be anything else, especially not the true supreme entities.
Grant Morrison states the Overvoid is the canvas, and that somebody "drew" - literally in quotes as to emphasize the fact that it's an analogy - the story on it. What is this story? The DC Multiverse. All of this is one line. He then devotes every other opportunity explaining he thinks the Overvoid is the supreme entity, God himself. He even states absolutely nothing exists beyond the Monitor-World, only "non-dual Monitor Mind, God and the Source." Isn't this the same guy who, as people have acknowledge, thinks fiction and reality are equally real and that he hates terms like "meta" and "4th wall", because it implies there is a barrier between the real world and the story?
Yes, this is that same guy. He'd be the most likely DC Writer to come forward and talk about The Writer as the true supreme entity. Yet he doesn't. And I am legitimately surprised that there are who people believe he is saying that on the interview, especially considering every other statement he makes...
To me, nothing. To lots of people, apparently, a Tier 0 entity - a hidden one, so subtle as to actually lack any in-universe evidence he exists and is meant to be the supreme being.
Some may think I'm being aggressive to the profile and those who believe in it, but that's not it. My biggest problem with the profile is the utter lack of evidence. Search all Tier 0 profiles. Every single character who is Tier 0, High 1-A, 1-A, anything - every single one of those are clearly explained in the story, their nature is explained, they are mentioned. "The Writer" is the only case of a supreme entity in this site whose existence is never acknowledge in the series, not even by characters who gained the ability to interact with the "meta". There was an entire storyline that Grant Morrison himself said was all about Writers in relation to the Overvoid, and the Comics themselves. Throughout this story, the Writers are the Monitors, beings that are subservient to the Overvoid and created by him, literally as a meta-boundary betwee the Comic Page and the white canvas used to draw said page. Never once are the Writers implied to be anything else, especially not the true supreme entities.
Grant Morrison states the Overvoid is the canvas, and that somebody "drew" - literally in quotes as to emphasize the fact that it's an analogy - the story on it. What is this story? The DC Multiverse. All of this is one line. He then devotes every other opportunity explaining he thinks the Overvoid is the supreme entity, God himself. He even states absolutely nothing exists beyond the Monitor-World, only "non-dual Monitor Mind, God and the Source." Isn't this the same guy who, as people have acknowledge, thinks fiction and reality are equally real and that he hates terms like "meta" and "4th wall", because it implies there is a barrier between the real world and the story?
Yes, this is that same guy. He'd be the most likely DC Writer to come forward and talk about The Writer as the true supreme entity. Yet he doesn't. And I am legitimately surprised that there are who people believe he is saying that on the interview, especially considering every other statement he makes...
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I didn't jab at you. I was saying that we, as a whole, are cherrypicking with this profile.ClassicNESfan said:
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Yes, I do think you're being aggressive, but tensions are clearly a bit heated. I don't hold it against you personally. This is the first time I think we've ever spoken. It doesn't have to be a big ordeal.
Grant Morrison has certainly referred to the Monitormind as paper on more than one occasion, and he's referred to the multiverse as "ink," "a drawing," "drawn on," "written on," and "imposed on" all in one instance or another. That's not a variety you get with one line, and it's very consistently referring to pen on paper. He's also- again- very enthusiastically clear about his intentions in how he views the DC multiverse. He explains all throughout Animal Man and a wide variety of other comics and interviews that the barrier between their world and our own does not exist in his mind. They and their reality are drawings and figments, even within the context of their own story, according to Grant Morrison.
DC is a unique narrative in that he has structured its cosmology around the concept of reality/fiction duality, which- unfortunately for indexing sites like us that try to stay in the realm of fiction- makes The Writer's existence incontrovertible. Frankly, we're lucky Grant even gave us a face to use by visiting Animal Man himself to lay the foundations for existence out. Regardless, these attempts at paralleling the Monitor's story with myths about gods existing in a void of chaos before time or reality springing from nothing are significantly more reliant upon speculation than referencing Grant Morrison's very consistent themes, his structure of the multiverse, and his literal display of The Writer in a story that forms the basis for his cosmology- in my opinion anyway.
It's not an ideal situation, and I understand that some people may have tried tying Grant's view on the cosmos to entities that are completely unrelated in-jokes or references by different writers. I'm sure it's annoying for an administrator such as yourself to deal with. But I think the reason you can't find Grant Morrison giving you an in-depth interview about The Writer from Animal Man or a profile mention in the next DC Encyclopedia is because he- like many of us here- feels like it's already been explained when he made his opinions public about the relationship between fictional stories and the real world. It's a very consistent theme of his that he harps on about at nearly every chance, and it comes with the unavoidable conclusion that we and our world shape them and their world every time we write a story.
Grant Morrison has certainly referred to the Monitormind as paper on more than one occasion, and he's referred to the multiverse as "ink," "a drawing," "drawn on," "written on," and "imposed on" all in one instance or another. That's not a variety you get with one line, and it's very consistently referring to pen on paper. He's also- again- very enthusiastically clear about his intentions in how he views the DC multiverse. He explains all throughout Animal Man and a wide variety of other comics and interviews that the barrier between their world and our own does not exist in his mind. They and their reality are drawings and figments, even within the context of their own story, according to Grant Morrison.
DC is a unique narrative in that he has structured its cosmology around the concept of reality/fiction duality, which- unfortunately for indexing sites like us that try to stay in the realm of fiction- makes The Writer's existence incontrovertible. Frankly, we're lucky Grant even gave us a face to use by visiting Animal Man himself to lay the foundations for existence out. Regardless, these attempts at paralleling the Monitor's story with myths about gods existing in a void of chaos before time or reality springing from nothing are significantly more reliant upon speculation than referencing Grant Morrison's very consistent themes, his structure of the multiverse, and his literal display of The Writer in a story that forms the basis for his cosmology- in my opinion anyway.
It's not an ideal situation, and I understand that some people may have tried tying Grant's view on the cosmos to entities that are completely unrelated in-jokes or references by different writers. I'm sure it's annoying for an administrator such as yourself to deal with. But I think the reason you can't find Grant Morrison giving you an in-depth interview about The Writer from Animal Man or a profile mention in the next DC Encyclopedia is because he- like many of us here- feels like it's already been explained when he made his opinions public about the relationship between fictional stories and the real world. It's a very consistent theme of his that he harps on about at nearly every chance, and it comes with the unavoidable conclusion that we and our world shape them and their world every time we write a story.
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I really don't see why the Monitor-Mind being called "God" is supposed to prevent something above it existing, especially since Grant Morrison himself defines it as the blank page of the comicbook, which had something created inside of against its own will. I am sorry, but I can't see why you struggle with the idea of the Writer given this blatant allusion to something similar to it existing; All I am really seeing is excessive cherry-picking of concepts that Morrison had already established in the 90's and used up until recently.
I also don't think you can consider The Presence as lesser than the Overvoid and yet say that he existed before the Flaw and created it in the first place, because, again, the Overvoid was upset because a quality of material itself was introduced amidst its Perfection, which is directly stated to have been narratives in a metafictional, very much literal sense by Morrison himself, as well both Multiversity and Final Crisis. The fact that Morrison considers the Monitor Sphere to be the literal edge of art before everything dissolves into oneness pretty clearly hammers the point home.
To say that it was angry just because a physical reality was created within it by someone who already existed (also within it) sort of misses the whole point of what the Overvoid and the Monitors are supposed to be.
Btw, the Monitors being the Writers is never portrayed as something literal, as stories existed before they did, and they were the ones infected by them in the first place. That's why Matt said that they were more like "Editors" than anything, they are supposed to be overseers, not active controllers, as far as I know.
To add to that, it should be noted that the Monitor-Mind noticing the existence of the Flaw and having its unfathomable nothingness devoid of definition "tainted" by the stories contained therein was explicitly stated to have been the first time that it had ever given itself a name, or established any form of relationship or connection between itself and anyone else. It is even made blatantly clear that Dax Novu (The Probe) was the first extension of the Overvoid to come into existence while simultaneously having been the first concept imagined up by it, before being split into Mandrakk (Himself representing the Monitor-Mind's desire to terminate the Flaw and preserve its perfection) and the Thought Robot.
I should also point out that Mxy's feat has nothing to do with this. As far as I know, he just removed Imagination (The Fifth Dimension) from the Multiverse, which caused it to dissolve in a way that was represented by the pencil drawing the comic breaking and the world dissolving into sketchbooks. It had nothing to do with the Monitors or the Overvoid, especially since the latter encompasses and is above the Sixth Dimension, which itself transcends Imagination.
I also don't think you can consider The Presence as lesser than the Overvoid and yet say that he existed before the Flaw and created it in the first place, because, again, the Overvoid was upset because a quality of material itself was introduced amidst its Perfection, which is directly stated to have been narratives in a metafictional, very much literal sense by Morrison himself, as well both Multiversity and Final Crisis. The fact that Morrison considers the Monitor Sphere to be the literal edge of art before everything dissolves into oneness pretty clearly hammers the point home.
To say that it was angry just because a physical reality was created within it by someone who already existed (also within it) sort of misses the whole point of what the Overvoid and the Monitors are supposed to be.
Btw, the Monitors being the Writers is never portrayed as something literal, as stories existed before they did, and they were the ones infected by them in the first place. That's why Matt said that they were more like "Editors" than anything, they are supposed to be overseers, not active controllers, as far as I know.
To add to that, it should be noted that the Monitor-Mind noticing the existence of the Flaw and having its unfathomable nothingness devoid of definition "tainted" by the stories contained therein was explicitly stated to have been the first time that it had ever given itself a name, or established any form of relationship or connection between itself and anyone else. It is even made blatantly clear that Dax Novu (The Probe) was the first extension of the Overvoid to come into existence while simultaneously having been the first concept imagined up by it, before being split into Mandrakk (Himself representing the Monitor-Mind's desire to terminate the Flaw and preserve its perfection) and the Thought Robot.
I should also point out that Mxy's feat has nothing to do with this. As far as I know, he just removed Imagination (The Fifth Dimension) from the Multiverse, which caused it to dissolve in a way that was represented by the pencil drawing the comic breaking and the world dissolving into sketchbooks. It had nothing to do with the Monitors or the Overvoid, especially since the latter encompasses and is above the Sixth Dimension, which itself transcends Imagination.
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@ClassicNES
You're once again assuming The Writer shown in Animal Man correlates to an actual supreme, composite "Writer" entity. This is, as I've said multiple times, unfounded. Nothing ever relates the Grant Morrison in Animal Man to anything in the Final Crisis (published literally 20 years later). Considering Nix Uotan is also blatantly the avatar of Grant Morrison himself at one point, and the Writer in Animal Man calls himself a demiurge (some have said the "demiurge" statement refers to him being one among many writers, but this'd be extremely strange, since "Demiurge" means someone who is subordinate to the Supreme Being and not one among many) it's just as easy to imagine that the Writer who showed up in Animal Man was just an avatar of Nix Uotan or one of the other Monitors, who are Demiurges to the Overvoid. This is also speculation and unfounded, but even this has more evidence backing it up than what you're suggesting, since the Monitors have actually been identified as sorta-godly MetaWriter entities by the story.
You're once again assuming The Writer shown in Animal Man correlates to an actual supreme, composite "Writer" entity. This is, as I've said multiple times, unfounded. Nothing ever relates the Grant Morrison in Animal Man to anything in the Final Crisis (published literally 20 years later). Considering Nix Uotan is also blatantly the avatar of Grant Morrison himself at one point, and the Writer in Animal Man calls himself a demiurge (some have said the "demiurge" statement refers to him being one among many writers, but this'd be extremely strange, since "Demiurge" means someone who is subordinate to the Supreme Being and not one among many) it's just as easy to imagine that the Writer who showed up in Animal Man was just an avatar of Nix Uotan or one of the other Monitors, who are Demiurges to the Overvoid. This is also speculation and unfounded, but even this has more evidence backing it up than what you're suggesting, since the Monitors have actually been identified as sorta-godly MetaWriter entities by the story.
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Addendum: It looks like you added a few points to your response before I finished typing up my reply, but I don't really have a wealth of time right now, so unfortunately, what I've written already will have to do. But I would be remiss if I did not again point out that I think you are seriously overemphasizing the importance of the quotes around the word "draw" that appear one out of three times in that article you linked. Again, that interview clearly wasn't transcribed by Grant Morrison, and quotes around a word can have a handful of different meanings. It doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't using the word literally. If it did, then you'd imagine the word would appear in quotes all three times it was used, not only once. And even then, you're relying on the transcriber to interpret what's being said correctly. Since there's no clarification in the article by Grant that he doesn't mean it that way, that's something the transcriber would have to pick up on their own. It's also a comment that's reiterated in interviews without the use of quotes. I'm not saying it's insignificant, but it definitely feels like you're leaning into it too much.
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Personally I think making fun of people by claiming that the intepretation of "The Writer" Character is a fanfic and then definitely stating that Mandrakk is Alan Moore as if there''s no rule for question feels... Contraditory.
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If you pay attention to my post, I actually said the exact same thing.
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I haven't used the fact that the word is between quotes as a heavy, major argument. My main arguments are focused entirely around what he definitely said after and before that line, not just the quotes - that was secondary.
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> I really don't see why the Monitor-Mind being called "God" is supposed to prevent something above it existing, especially since Grant Morrison himself defines it as the blank page of the comicbook, which had something created inside of against its own will
Once again, Grant Morrison never said that the Void had something drawn upon it against its very will by a higher entity and I heavily disagree with this interpretation. Considering you yourself have pointed out it was not even "aware" ( "aware" in the same sense as Azathoth is "stupid", since the Overvoid is concept-less) of the multiverse's existence at first, this'd be a sketchy interpretation.
Grant Morrison actually said, as I pointed out before, that there is absolutely nothing beyond the Monitor-World except the Monitor-Mind, God and the Source.
> I am sorry, but I can't see why you struggle with the idea of the Writer given this blatant allusion to something similar to it existing.
I struggle with the idea of the Writer because there is no evidence it's anything more than that - an idea.
As I have described before, it's what we got by hastily combining a random Grant Morrison avatar appearance from the 90s, multiple completely unrelated "writerlike" characters who were never implied to be correlated, such as the Parliament of the Stories and the Architects (the latter being more likely to be Monitor avatars if we're so keen on putting headcanon in the profiles), and then using one specific interpretation of what Grant Morrison may have said in 2009 as the super-glue to bind all those things together. The common problem with all of those aspects is the utter lack of actual in-universe scans.
Really, find me one, just one statement in the comics that might allude to the exact concept you're describing - ie., a superior entity who forcibly drew on the multiverse the Overvoid - and I'll drop this particular argument entirely.
> I also don't think you can consider The Presence as lesser than the Overvoid and yet say that he existed before the Flaw and created it in the first place, because, again, the Overvoid was upset because a quality of material itself was introduced amidst its Perfection, which is directly stated to have been narratives in a metafictional, very much literal sense by Morrison himself
I don't consider the true Presence as lesser than the Overvoid. I explicitly expressed my belief that the Presence, the Void, and the Source form a Trinitarian cosmology where they are all one, but at the same time are not. They share the same essence and form one singular God through different "manifestations", as Grant Morrison heavily implied in the interview. The Overvoid is the "white page" concept, the Presence is the "writer" (something also supported by DeMatteis's opinion), and the Source is a blend between both. All contradictions are resolved into unity.
> As well both Multiversity and Final Crisis. The fact that Morrison considers the Monitor Sphere to be the literal edge of art before everything dissolves into oneness pretty clearly hammers the point home.
Never denied that, in fact I used it as an argument.
> Btw, the Monitors being the Writers is never portrayed as something literal, as stories existed before they did, and they were the ones infected by them in the first place
1. If the Monitors are not "literally" (see 2) portrayed as the Writers, the "Writer" isn't literally portrayed as anything, since they never appear in the story.
2. Once again, what is the line you draw between something being a metajoke and literal part of the lore? This is exactly why I said we're cherrypicking. Grant Morrison himself states the Monitors represent the storytellers and that they're each named after a Writer God. Multiple scans point to that outside of his word. Why shouldn't we just take them at face value at that point? Because they prove there is absolutely no need for the "Writer" to exist the way we portray him at and that actual writers in the story can still be subservient/created by the Void or something?
> I should also point out that Mxy's feat has nothing to do with this.
That's my point.
Once again, Grant Morrison never said that the Void had something drawn upon it against its very will by a higher entity and I heavily disagree with this interpretation. Considering you yourself have pointed out it was not even "aware" ( "aware" in the same sense as Azathoth is "stupid", since the Overvoid is concept-less) of the multiverse's existence at first, this'd be a sketchy interpretation.
Grant Morrison actually said, as I pointed out before, that there is absolutely nothing beyond the Monitor-World except the Monitor-Mind, God and the Source.
> I am sorry, but I can't see why you struggle with the idea of the Writer given this blatant allusion to something similar to it existing.
I struggle with the idea of the Writer because there is no evidence it's anything more than that - an idea.
As I have described before, it's what we got by hastily combining a random Grant Morrison avatar appearance from the 90s, multiple completely unrelated "writerlike" characters who were never implied to be correlated, such as the Parliament of the Stories and the Architects (the latter being more likely to be Monitor avatars if we're so keen on putting headcanon in the profiles), and then using one specific interpretation of what Grant Morrison may have said in 2009 as the super-glue to bind all those things together. The common problem with all of those aspects is the utter lack of actual in-universe scans.
Really, find me one, just one statement in the comics that might allude to the exact concept you're describing - ie., a superior entity who forcibly drew on the multiverse the Overvoid - and I'll drop this particular argument entirely.
> I also don't think you can consider The Presence as lesser than the Overvoid and yet say that he existed before the Flaw and created it in the first place, because, again, the Overvoid was upset because a quality of material itself was introduced amidst its Perfection, which is directly stated to have been narratives in a metafictional, very much literal sense by Morrison himself
I don't consider the true Presence as lesser than the Overvoid. I explicitly expressed my belief that the Presence, the Void, and the Source form a Trinitarian cosmology where they are all one, but at the same time are not. They share the same essence and form one singular God through different "manifestations", as Grant Morrison heavily implied in the interview. The Overvoid is the "white page" concept, the Presence is the "writer" (something also supported by DeMatteis's opinion), and the Source is a blend between both. All contradictions are resolved into unity.
> As well both Multiversity and Final Crisis. The fact that Morrison considers the Monitor Sphere to be the literal edge of art before everything dissolves into oneness pretty clearly hammers the point home.
Never denied that, in fact I used it as an argument.
> Btw, the Monitors being the Writers is never portrayed as something literal, as stories existed before they did, and they were the ones infected by them in the first place
1. If the Monitors are not "literally" (see 2) portrayed as the Writers, the "Writer" isn't literally portrayed as anything, since they never appear in the story.
2. Once again, what is the line you draw between something being a metajoke and literal part of the lore? This is exactly why I said we're cherrypicking. Grant Morrison himself states the Monitors represent the storytellers and that they're each named after a Writer God. Multiple scans point to that outside of his word. Why shouldn't we just take them at face value at that point? Because they prove there is absolutely no need for the "Writer" to exist the way we portray him at and that actual writers in the story can still be subservient/created by the Void or something?
> I should also point out that Mxy's feat has nothing to do with this.
That's my point.
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If we merge The Presence, The Source, and The Void into 1 god profile. They would be High 1-A. Only character in DC that can be Tier 0 is the writer and that is if people accept his existence
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The Eonymous from Milk Wars would unironically be Tier 0 if we treated it fairly.
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Why are Milk Wars characters not allowed in the main DC multiverse again?
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Because it is a joke series not meant to be taken seriously
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Could you imagine if we did scale from Milk Wars though? Superman with resistance to 1-A conceptual manipulation... Would be amazing.
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"You're once again assuming The Writer shown in Animal Man correlates to an actual supreme, composite "Writer" entity. This is, as I've said multiple times, unfounded. Nothing ever relates the Grant Morrison in Animal Man to anything in the Final Crisis (published literally 20 years later)."
>Limbo
>Book of Limbo
>Overvoid appearing in Animal-Man
>Grant consistently applies aspects of works that far predate his within his stories
????
>Limbo
>Book of Limbo
>Overvoid appearing in Animal-Man
>Grant consistently applies aspects of works that far predate his within his stories
????
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@Hykuu
On other words, no actual evidence, just a bunch of unrelated stuff (like Limbo) being tossed in as if it were.
Grant Morrison clarified that Final Crisis' Limbo was inspired on a concept introduced in his Animal-Man Run, not that it was the exact same thing alluded to in there. And he clearly didn't plan ahead on this.
Also, no, the Overvoid never appeared in Animal Man. White background = \ = the Overvoid.
On other words, no actual evidence, just a bunch of unrelated stuff (like Limbo) being tossed in as if it were.
Grant Morrison clarified that Final Crisis' Limbo was inspired on a concept introduced in his Animal-Man Run, not that it was the exact same thing alluded to in there. And he clearly didn't plan ahead on this.
Also, no, the Overvoid never appeared in Animal Man. White background = \ = the Overvoid.
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What? How is it unrelated? I established that Grant still used elements from his Animal Man when he wrote FC, what's the problem here?
It's literally the same concept, we even seen the same leader, the only difference is the red background and different characters, we literally see the book of limbo and the monkey aswell, he doesn't have to plan ahead, that's a complete non sequitur to what you originally claimed.
It's an extremely similiar concept which had the sameIdea, the white page on which the comic is drawn.
So yes, Grant used elements from Animal Man when he wrote Final Crisis, I never even implied something on the lines of "Grant is a mastermind who wrote comics 20 years before Final Crisis just so he can use those elements in it", but I am just saying he just decided to recycle some of the ideas and they are infact connected, so it would unamiously be completely within the realm of logic and possibility that "The Writer" would still exist
It's literally the same concept, we even seen the same leader, the only difference is the red background and different characters, we literally see the book of limbo and the monkey aswell, he doesn't have to plan ahead, that's a complete non sequitur to what you originally claimed.
It's an extremely similiar concept which had the sameIdea, the white page on which the comic is drawn.
So yes, Grant used elements from Animal Man when he wrote Final Crisis, I never even implied something on the lines of "Grant is a mastermind who wrote comics 20 years before Final Crisis just so he can use those elements in it", but I am just saying he just decided to recycle some of the ideas and they are infact connected, so it would unamiously be completely within the realm of logic and possibility that "The Writer" would still exist
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> What? How is it unrelated? I established that Grant still used elements from his Animal Man when he wrote FC, what's the problem here?
Grant Morrison using a few concepts from Animal Man as inspiration for later ones in no way magically proves the Writer in Animal-Man is an avatar of a supreme entity from Final Crisis or generates evidence of his existence. This is a blatant non-sequitur.
> it would unamiously be completely within the realm of logic and possibility that "The Writer" would still exist
It's also possible and within the realm of logic that the Moon is an hologram created by time-travelers, but there's no evidence that is the case;
Saying that the Writer does not necessarily contradict anything is not a substitute for actual evidence of his existence, and more importantly, evidence that he correlates to anything that comes later. Your entire argument is "Grant Morrison has used concepts from Animal-Man, therefore the Writer in Animal Man must be a concept he reused to make a supreme entity beyond the Overvoid that has never been mentioned"
Grant Morrison using a few concepts from Animal Man as inspiration for later ones in no way magically proves the Writer in Animal-Man is an avatar of a supreme entity from Final Crisis or generates evidence of his existence. This is a blatant non-sequitur.
> it would unamiously be completely within the realm of logic and possibility that "The Writer" would still exist
It's also possible and within the realm of logic that the Moon is an hologram created by time-travelers, but there's no evidence that is the case;
Saying that the Writer does not necessarily contradict anything is not a substitute for actual evidence of his existence, and more importantly, evidence that he correlates to anything that comes later. Your entire argument is "Grant Morrison has used concepts from Animal-Man, therefore the Writer in Animal Man must be a concept he reused to make a supreme entity beyond the Overvoid that has never been mentioned"
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All of this is just extremely vague stuff. Based on subjective opinion.
Like, at what point is a piece of paper, a white character being that is a piece of paper based on your concious intent? It's so weird.
Like, at what point is a piece of paper, a white character being that is a piece of paper based on your concious intent? It's so weird.
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Limbo and the Writer at anything BUT unrelated. One leads directly to the other in Animal Man.
We also have the monkey with a typewriter making the book of infinite pages.
We also have the monkey with a typewriter making the book of infinite pages.
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Bro, my point was never that this PROVES his existence, by point was that what you originally said, which I quoted, goes against what's actually shown and doesn't NEGATE his existence, I am not arguing for not q or something.
When I said the realm of logic and possibility I obviously meant it's likely to the point where it can't be disregarded, there's no other reason I would have said that.
Look, there is a reason I quoted a part of your comment, not all of it, I simply nitpicked that part of what you said, I couldn't careless about the rest. Also, that wasn't ANYONE's argument, lol?
The argument was "Grant Morrison directly likens DC being created as someone drawing something on the blank page, he's directly mentioned the writer within animal man as being a demiurge and part of a process, he is no stranger to metafiction at ALL; so it all deductively leads to it being the writer"
You are more so trying to attack this as if it was some garbage abductive argument when that's not the case at all.
When I said the realm of logic and possibility I obviously meant it's likely to the point where it can't be disregarded, there's no other reason I would have said that.
Look, there is a reason I quoted a part of your comment, not all of it, I simply nitpicked that part of what you said, I couldn't careless about the rest. Also, that wasn't ANYONE's argument, lol?
The argument was "Grant Morrison directly likens DC being created as someone drawing something on the blank page, he's directly mentioned the writer within animal man as being a demiurge and part of a process, he is no stranger to metafiction at ALL; so it all deductively leads to it being the writer"
You are more so trying to attack this as if it was some garbage abductive argument when that's not the case at all.
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Boy the moon argument there is such a fallacious strawmen.
I agree 100% with Hykuu
I agree 100% with Hykuu
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> Bro, my point was never that this PROVES his existence, by point was that what you originally said, which I quoted, goes against what's actually shown and doesn't NEGATE his existence, I am not arguing for not q or something.
1. That's literally what I just said.
2. Yes, you were trying to prove his existence through that. If you weren't, you wouldn't have quoted my "there is no evidence he exists" and then providing all of that stuff and then putting a bunch of question marks as if it was obvious. If that wasn't the point, then why even bother replying to a post where I ask for strict evidence instead of posting non-sequiturs? Simply get to the point already, man.
> When I said the realm of logic and possibility I obviously meant it's likely to the point where it can't be disregarded, there's no other reason I would have said that.
Yes, I know that's what you meant. Still unfounded because you have yet to post any evidence of his existence that doesn't come down to completely separate concepts Grant Morrison reused that don't necessarily have to point to a Writer.
> The argument was "Grant Morrison directly likens DC being created as someone drawing something on the blank page, he's directly mentioned the writer within animal man as being a demiurge and part of a process, he is no stranger to metafiction at ALL; so it all deductively leads to it being the writer"
1. There is no evidence he meant the Writer with that quote, for the seventh or so time in this thread.
In fact, he actually says absolutely nothing and no one exists beyond the Overvoid, so.
2. The Writer in Animal Man being a "demiurge", if anything, debunks the idea that he is meant to be an avatar of the supreme entity. If he were one of the many writers that formed "The Writer", he wouldn't be subordinate to them. As I said before, this is more likely to be pointing to the Monitors (even if both are speculation with no evidence.)
1. That's literally what I just said.
2. Yes, you were trying to prove his existence through that. If you weren't, you wouldn't have quoted my "there is no evidence he exists" and then providing all of that stuff and then putting a bunch of question marks as if it was obvious. If that wasn't the point, then why even bother replying to a post where I ask for strict evidence instead of posting non-sequiturs? Simply get to the point already, man.
> When I said the realm of logic and possibility I obviously meant it's likely to the point where it can't be disregarded, there's no other reason I would have said that.
Yes, I know that's what you meant. Still unfounded because you have yet to post any evidence of his existence that doesn't come down to completely separate concepts Grant Morrison reused that don't necessarily have to point to a Writer.
> The argument was "Grant Morrison directly likens DC being created as someone drawing something on the blank page, he's directly mentioned the writer within animal man as being a demiurge and part of a process, he is no stranger to metafiction at ALL; so it all deductively leads to it being the writer"
1. There is no evidence he meant the Writer with that quote, for the seventh or so time in this thread.
In fact, he actually says absolutely nothing and no one exists beyond the Overvoid, so.
2. The Writer in Animal Man being a "demiurge", if anything, debunks the idea that he is meant to be an avatar of the supreme entity. If he were one of the many writers that formed "The Writer", he wouldn't be subordinate to them. As I said before, this is more likely to be pointing to the Monitors (even if both are speculation with no evidence.)
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It actually isn't, because it's the exact same level of "It is well within the realm of possibility, so you can't disregard it." type of theory.
I know outsiders to this whole argument may initially think it was a strawman, but look at what he said beforehand and you'll realize it wasn't.
Absence of evidence doesn't translate to evidence. Never has, never will.
I know outsiders to this whole argument may initially think it was a strawman, but look at what he said beforehand and you'll realize it wasn't.
Absence of evidence doesn't translate to evidence. Never has, never will.
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1. It literally wasn't, but ight
2. I was trying to establish that he still uses elements from Animal Man in regards to Final Crisis, what's exactly hard to understand here? If you can't grasp the point, I am not sure why you would be asking me to "get to the point", it's really as simple as this.
Okay, ignore the scans, Idk if you are stone walling on purpose on something, but even in your first comment against me you never actually addressed my scans, just my stance, which is as good as a red herring.
1. Which you have been debunked on, over and over.
2. Dude The Wriiter literally says he will always view the verse of DC as direct fiction, how the **** would that make sense if he's right there next to Animal Man? Let's go through the solutions to this: 1- Avatar 2- The Writer is nearly as inconsistent in what he's saying as you are 3- 823918473219847fuhdsfujeahu
Idk but I think option 1 is the best.
Also yes, it's a strawman, it's basically the same as saying "lol you're a no-life" and the dude responding with "but I am alive loool", I don't think you actually understood what I meant, the context says it all, even after I clarified.
2. I was trying to establish that he still uses elements from Animal Man in regards to Final Crisis, what's exactly hard to understand here? If you can't grasp the point, I am not sure why you would be asking me to "get to the point", it's really as simple as this.
Okay, ignore the scans, Idk if you are stone walling on purpose on something, but even in your first comment against me you never actually addressed my scans, just my stance, which is as good as a red herring.
1. Which you have been debunked on, over and over.
2. Dude The Wriiter literally says he will always view the verse of DC as direct fiction, how the **** would that make sense if he's right there next to Animal Man? Let's go through the solutions to this: 1- Avatar 2- The Writer is nearly as inconsistent in what he's saying as you are 3- 823918473219847fuhdsfujeahu
Idk but I think option 1 is the best.
Also yes, it's a strawman, it's basically the same as saying "lol you're a no-life" and the dude responding with "but I am alive loool", I don't think you actually understood what I meant, the context says it all, even after I clarified.
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2. Okay then, you've done that and I acknowledge it. Now please provide me with your direct evidence that the "Writer' exists. Just this. Ignore everything else I said and just focus on this.
1. If you can provide the post numbers of those supposed debunks of my multiple posts on the issue, I'd actually be pleasantly surprised. So far only Ultima has tried to directly respond to my points.
2. Since you didn't see it: The Writer in Animal Man being a "demiurge", if anything, debunks the idea that he is meant to be an avatar of the supreme entity. If he were one of the many writers that formed "The Writer", he wouldn't be subordinate to them. As I said before, this is more likely to be pointing to the Monitors (even if both are speculation with no evidence.)
1. If you can provide the post numbers of those supposed debunks of my multiple posts on the issue, I'd actually be pleasantly surprised. So far only Ultima has tried to directly respond to my points.
2. Since you didn't see it: The Writer in Animal Man being a "demiurge", if anything, debunks the idea that he is meant to be an avatar of the supreme entity. If he were one of the many writers that formed "The Writer", he wouldn't be subordinate to them. As I said before, this is more likely to be pointing to the Monitors (even if both are speculation with no evidence.)
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The Demiurge quote doesn't debunk anything. It's just the Grant Writer Avatar stating that he isn't the Writer who created Animal Man. And the text makes it clear that that whole interaction is still fictional and taking place in the writing.
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I am writing up an answer to Kep's posts right now, but I'd like to first say that I agree with Matt in that Grant describing himself as a Demiurge doesn't actually debunk anything: He was using the term in a vague, loose manner to describe his role within Animal Man's story, not in a literal gnostic / platonic context. The fact that he says Animal Man was created by someone else and he was just there to spoil everything with his writing pretty much hammers the point home: He was talking about other writers, not some entity or entities greater than himself.
Also, it is literally not possible for him to be referring to the Monitors, even as a theory / speculation. I've already stated why that can't be the case: The Monitors are overseers, not active forces, and were condensed out of the Monitor-Mind to probe the story of DC Comics, which existed long before they did.
Also, it is literally not possible for him to be referring to the Monitors, even as a theory / speculation. I've already stated why that can't be the case: The Monitors are overseers, not active forces, and were condensed out of the Monitor-Mind to probe the story of DC Comics, which existed long before they did.
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By the way, in regards to the connections between Animal Man and Final Crisis, check this interview out:
http://web.archive.org/web/20090327131733/http://comicfoundry.com/?p=1693
Final Crisis ties together a lot of plot threads and themes from your work the DC Universe over the years. How long have you specifically been navigating towards this story?
For me, honestly, I've been building towards this since those very first Animal Man issues where I figured out what I wanted to do with superhero comics.
Did you know that this was the end point, or is that something that you realized over time as you were building certain narratives?
When you start out writing shared universe comics, you tend to come in with a grand vision based on years of consuming the material and thinking about it. But you don't get to do Batman and Superman when you start, so the universe-altering epics take a while to get to. I've worked almost exclusively at DC for over 20 years and I've only done two major crossover events (DC One Million and Final Crisis).
The longer I've gone on working, the more I've been able to weave together all of my DC stories into one coherent mega-narrative going back decades. Final Crisis brings a lot of that stuff full circle to The Coyote Gospel in Animal Man No. 5. The idea of drawings emerging from white paper. If the "paper" is the Ground of Being in the DC Universe and let's just imagine that the paper itself is "alive," how would that pure pristine consciousness feel about being written on, you know, with all these mad stories of passion and violence and need? Especially if it learned to feel from watching us. You can trace this inspiration back to that brilliant Brian Bolland cover for Animal Man No. 5.
The Animal Man No. 5 cover in question:
Well then, ain't that something special?
NOW THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT
I rest my case.
http://web.archive.org/web/20090327131733/http://comicfoundry.com/?p=1693
Final Crisis ties together a lot of plot threads and themes from your work the DC Universe over the years. How long have you specifically been navigating towards this story?
For me, honestly, I've been building towards this since those very first Animal Man issues where I figured out what I wanted to do with superhero comics.
Did you know that this was the end point, or is that something that you realized over time as you were building certain narratives?
When you start out writing shared universe comics, you tend to come in with a grand vision based on years of consuming the material and thinking about it. But you don't get to do Batman and Superman when you start, so the universe-altering epics take a while to get to. I've worked almost exclusively at DC for over 20 years and I've only done two major crossover events (DC One Million and Final Crisis).
The longer I've gone on working, the more I've been able to weave together all of my DC stories into one coherent mega-narrative going back decades. Final Crisis brings a lot of that stuff full circle to The Coyote Gospel in Animal Man No. 5. The idea of drawings emerging from white paper. If the "paper" is the Ground of Being in the DC Universe and let's just imagine that the paper itself is "alive," how would that pure pristine consciousness feel about being written on, you know, with all these mad stories of passion and violence and need? Especially if it learned to feel from watching us. You can trace this inspiration back to that brilliant Brian Bolland cover for Animal Man No. 5.
The Animal Man No. 5 cover in question:
Well then, ain't that something special?
NOW THIS IS REALLY SOMETHING INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT
I rest my case.
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To complement Matt's post, I should address Kep's comment saying that the Overvoid never appeared in Animal Man, and that the white background was just a 4th Wall Reference. I heavily disagree with this interpretation, especialy given how the characters themselves fully acknowledge the existence of the blank page, and the Yellow Aliens go as far as stating that it is a hole in the Universe that leads directly into the middle ground between the fictional reality in which the characters reside and the higher world in which they are spun into being.
This, coupled with the Interview which Matt posted above, the one where Morrison quite explicitly spells out that the idea of the Monitor-Mind was something the narrative was building up to since Animal Man, and that the concept of the entity itself was inspired by this particular cover (which is also the profile picture of the Writer, btw), makes me firmly believe that the Void that appeared in Animal Man was an Early-Bird Cameo of the Overvoid, before it was given an official name.
Furthermore, the idea that The Writer is just a random 4th Wall joke that Grant Morrison snuck up in the comicbook is quite baffling, especially since finding The Writer, the source of the characters' suffering, became a central plot point in the final issues of Morrison's run of Animal Man, and was the reason why Animal Man himself travelled to the Comicbook Limbo in the first place. There are also way more plot-points from the final issues of Animal Man that carried onto Final Crisis, such as the Book of Infinite Pages being written by a Monkey, for instance, not to mention the reapperance of characters like Merryman in Superman Beyond.
So yes, the entire existence of the character is very much inseparable from that of Limbo, the entire plot of Animal Man (which Grant explicitly says was where much of the concepts from Final Crisis first came from) and by extension from the Overvoid.
I don't consider the true Presence as lesser than the Overvoid. I explicitly expressed my belief that the Presence, the Void, and the Source form a Trinitarian cosmology where they are all one, but at the same time are not. They share the same essence and form one singular God through different "manifestations", as Grant Morrison heavily implied in the interview. The Overvoid is the "white page" concept, the Presence is the "writer" (something also supported by DeMatteis's opinion), and the Source is a blend between both. All contradictions are resolved into unity.
Except that this is not the case. All contradictions are resolved into unity because when you get into the core of those three seemingly disparate concepts, they are in truth the same Unmanifest God as seen through different lenses, the scan where the Monitors refer to the Source and the Primal Monitor as interchangeable epithets of the same force should hammer the point home pretty neatly.
Besides, The Presence as a personal, manifest God that made all of existence in a narrative level (as you suggest), similar to what we see in Mike Carey's Lucifer Run would be part of the "Art" that crumbles beyond the Source Wall, per the Official Map of the Multiverse, wouldn't it? Then your interpretation seems fairly self-defeating, and this is made even more damning by the fact Carey's run has apparently been thrown into the trash bin.
This, coupled with the Interview which Matt posted above, the one where Morrison quite explicitly spells out that the idea of the Monitor-Mind was something the narrative was building up to since Animal Man, and that the concept of the entity itself was inspired by this particular cover (which is also the profile picture of the Writer, btw), makes me firmly believe that the Void that appeared in Animal Man was an Early-Bird Cameo of the Overvoid, before it was given an official name.
Furthermore, the idea that The Writer is just a random 4th Wall joke that Grant Morrison snuck up in the comicbook is quite baffling, especially since finding The Writer, the source of the characters' suffering, became a central plot point in the final issues of Morrison's run of Animal Man, and was the reason why Animal Man himself travelled to the Comicbook Limbo in the first place. There are also way more plot-points from the final issues of Animal Man that carried onto Final Crisis, such as the Book of Infinite Pages being written by a Monkey, for instance, not to mention the reapperance of characters like Merryman in Superman Beyond.
So yes, the entire existence of the character is very much inseparable from that of Limbo, the entire plot of Animal Man (which Grant explicitly says was where much of the concepts from Final Crisis first came from) and by extension from the Overvoid.
I don't consider the true Presence as lesser than the Overvoid. I explicitly expressed my belief that the Presence, the Void, and the Source form a Trinitarian cosmology where they are all one, but at the same time are not. They share the same essence and form one singular God through different "manifestations", as Grant Morrison heavily implied in the interview. The Overvoid is the "white page" concept, the Presence is the "writer" (something also supported by DeMatteis's opinion), and the Source is a blend between both. All contradictions are resolved into unity.
Except that this is not the case. All contradictions are resolved into unity because when you get into the core of those three seemingly disparate concepts, they are in truth the same Unmanifest God as seen through different lenses, the scan where the Monitors refer to the Source and the Primal Monitor as interchangeable epithets of the same force should hammer the point home pretty neatly.
Besides, The Presence as a personal, manifest God that made all of existence in a narrative level (as you suggest), similar to what we see in Mike Carey's Lucifer Run would be part of the "Art" that crumbles beyond the Source Wall, per the Official Map of the Multiverse, wouldn't it? Then your interpretation seems fairly self-defeating, and this is made even more damning by the fact Carey's run has apparently been thrown into the trash bin.
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As long as we're still ignoring Milk Wars, I'm with basically everybody else on this thing about The Writer. I think it's pretty obvious what Grant Morrison was trying to get across, and interpreting it as the various alternatives that have been proposed seems weird. It feels like it's going out of its way to find a way around the straight forward answer. But that's just my personal interpretation. I'm not accusing anyone of anything. I'd still like to hear whatever it is Ultima Reality is typing up.
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...Or he can just post it while I'm typing. That also works.
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Yes, I'm ultimately still in agreement with Ultima and Matthew. I think Grant Morrison is very forthcoming about what he's trying to portray, and attributing creation to any other character from across DC canon is really more speculatory than we need to get. All of Morrison's writings exist in the same ecosystem, carry the same themes, and try to get across the same message- a message he really isn't shy about spelling out when asked.
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