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Just came back from a short trip to my uncle's house and will take a look at the new posts shortly.
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Time to fit the (literal) god of DC comics as well as the others in our new tiering system
- Thread starter I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die
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@Ultima
That's the first thing in this thread so far that can be said to point to the Writer as an entity above the Overvoid and related to the character that appeared in Animal Man, which is what I was asking for from the beginning.
I still disagree with you on God, however, since I feel as if rather than "the same concept through different lens", it's something similar to Trinitarianism and other religions where multiple forms of God share the same essence (like Hinduism), where each facet of God is separate, and united at the same time.
That's the first thing in this thread so far that can be said to point to the Writer as an entity above the Overvoid and related to the character that appeared in Animal Man, which is what I was asking for from the beginning.
I still disagree with you on God, however, since I feel as if rather than "the same concept through different lens", it's something similar to Trinitarianism and other religions where multiple forms of God share the same essence (like Hinduism), where each facet of God is separate, and united at the same time.
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I'm sorry, Kep. I hope you didn't feel belittled or anything throughout this. It's possible we were just misunderstanding what you were asking for.
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No, lol. Don't worry.
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Are you sure? One of your earlier responses to me made me think I might have misspoken and hurt your feelings at some point. If that's the case, I wanted to make it clear that it was unintentional.
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This is just a fictional debate website. I'd have to be an idiot to get offended over something as minor as that.
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I think matthew explained it well enough
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Alright. I just wanted to be certain.
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@Ultima Reality: I concur and agree with your tiering.
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I agree with @Ultima and @Matt
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Will a new thread be needed to discuss The Eonymous?
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So if the void will be High 1-A. will the presence be affected since he will be merging with the void into a god profile
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I think we had a thread about milk wars but it was rejected because it was more of a meta joke story
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I thought only cross-scaling was rejected
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In any case, looks like DC Comic's 'power of the verse' needs some changing. By far the strongest comic book franchise, not "one of"
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@LordUrien935: Any discussions about Milk Wars characters should be done on a separate page since they are segmented from the main DC universe.
@Blue: It depends how we ultimately end up treating The Presence. It's clear that his personal manifestation is not as powerful as the full Overvoid, but that's no different than a dozen other profiles on this wiki that operate with avatars and manifestations.
@Blue: It depends how we ultimately end up treating The Presence. It's clear that his personal manifestation is not as powerful as the full Overvoid, but that's no different than a dozen other profiles on this wiki that operate with avatars and manifestations.
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Though technically true I don't think it's a good move to rub it in people's faces on the descriptions like that.LordUrien935 said:
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Well, I was thinking to just call it one of the strongest fictional verses out there like how CM, Umineko, and Demonbane are referred to instead of pointing out how it's definitely the strongest comic book verse ever
Also, how will the Great Evil Beast be affected?
Also, how will the Great Evil Beast be affected?
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The Great Evil Beast should only scale to God's personal manifestation, especially given its existence as an entity withi the DC universe, which is only a tiny speck on the Overvoid, and its relevance to Lucifer's position in hell at the beginning of Sandman. There is nothing to suggest it scales to the greater Overvoid.
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Eh, I wasn't expecting GEB to be High 1-A or anything. I was just wondering if it was also going to be ranked as being very far into 1-A like The Presence himself is.
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Yes, it should be. Even if decide to be super critical about it and acknowledge that The Presence's exact power levels hadn't been established at the time, The Great Evil Beast was still portrayed as massively more powerful than Lucifer Morningstar, who is already pretty deep into the tier.
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@Ultima Wait so why is the Void High 1-A in the first place? The Writer can be Tier 0 if the Void is High 1-A but I don't see why it's High 1-A. I thought you were saying the Writer was High 1-A.
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Mostly because it completely lacks definition and is fully unmanifest even in relation to multiple 1-A realms, and its status as the literal page in which the comicbook is drawn would naturally make it so there is no difference between any of the characters that are drawn in it, because they are equally just that: Stories and Drawings.
This is even invoked in Animal Man, where the Void is the middle ground between DC Comics and The Writer, and is the vehicle through which he can interact with the characters. The Grant Morrison whom Animal Man met was fictional, and so was the "Real" Grant Morrison that was writing the story, and the one narrating the final panels of the comic even further than that, and the same would apply to any other recursions.
This is even invoked in Animal Man, where the Void is the middle ground between DC Comics and The Writer, and is the vehicle through which he can interact with the characters. The Grant Morrison whom Animal Man met was fictional, and so was the "Real" Grant Morrison that was writing the story, and the one narrating the final panels of the comic even further than that, and the same would apply to any other recursions.
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That is probably fine, but I would still prefer some kind of footnote explanation so this does not set a bad precedent for other franchises regarding that only two degrees of reality-fiction interaction relative to 1-A beings is necessary for tier 0. It will save us lots of problems later on.Ultima Reality said:
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The Writer should probably not be Tier 0, considering Grant Morrison appears to believe that it's possible for sufficiently powerful entities in the comics to interact with the fictional version of the real world, sense its existence, and even affect it to a degree. He should be High 1-A only.
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I mean I don't know about that. Don't you think saying something like "no matter how many 1-A hierarchies are drawn on it, it will still transcend them" gives DC leeway to be the most powerful fictional verse because you could theoretically say anything. I'd rather just define it as one "fictional transcendence".Ultima Reality said:
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@Kep
None of that really stops the Writer from being Tier 0 though, and even then, Grant's Avatar quite explicitly states that the characters will never be able to truly interact with the actual "Writer", just with fictional avatars of them and simulations of the Real World which will still always be fiction from a higher perspective.
@Emperor
Of course, we should still be conservative and stick to the implications given in the story itself, but saying the Overvoid is just "one degree of fictional transcendence" is blatant downplay and disregards what the Overvoid is supposed to be.
None of that really stops the Writer from being Tier 0 though, and even then, Grant's Avatar quite explicitly states that the characters will never be able to truly interact with the actual "Writer", just with fictional avatars of them and simulations of the Real World which will still always be fiction from a higher perspective.
@Emperor
Of course, we should still be conservative and stick to the implications given in the story itself, but saying the Overvoid is just "one degree of fictional transcendence" is blatant downplay and disregards what the Overvoid is supposed to be.
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Thought Robot (a High 1-B to near baseline 1-A entity) sensed the Reader and almost touched them, according to you, so clearly the in-universe Real World isn't all that transcendental of the comics.
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Whether the Thought Robot was ever actually capable of touching the reader is kind of up for debate. He says he hears breathing from "a direction that has no name" and says it's "almost as if I can reach out and touch something immense beyond understanding" But he doesn't ever actually touch anything. In fact, according to that same dialogue, it seems pretty clear that he can't see the reader, comprehend the direction they are in, or even wrap his mind around how massive they are compared to him. It's pretty likely that his reaching out was a futile effort to begin with- the word play being similar to "It's almost as if I could feel the tiger's sharp teeth slicing into my neck." And if we interpret the action with full Morrisonian levels of meta, it was definitely futile. Superman can't actually reach out of the page and touch you. Even the 3-D effects in that comic were all just an illusion that you specifically had to choose to interact with. In actuality, the effects reaching out toward you are not getting any closer to your body at all.
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Thought Robot is 1-A now.Kepekley23 said:
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And like NESfan said, he can't comprehend the reader, see the reader, much less touch the reader. He tries to reach out (specially in the 3D version of the comic) and is unable to get anywhere.
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What the others said. It's even shown that he was actually just touching a structure in the city of the Monitors, and was only vaguely acknowledging the Reader as a massive presence he couldn't actually comprehend.Kepekley23 said:
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Oh, heck. I never even noticed that.
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I got a good template note:Antvasima said:
"Do not use the tiering of the overvoid or the writer to try to make other characters "who view others as fiction" as Tier 0 or High 1-A. The Overvoid and the Writer are in this tier because their level of transendence is exceeds the scale of the outerversal hiearchy in the setting. Reality-Fiction interactions, UNLESS proven and shown to be exceeding the scale and hiearchy of a 1-A hiearchy to the point they can't fit in 1-A like the Overvoid or Featherine Agustus Aurora. Should not be used to try to scale characters to High 1-A or 0. If it is just stated that they make the people below look like fiction without proper proof they exceed the hiearchy and scale altogether, then they will just be in the tier of the people below"
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I don't see how it's downplay. It depends on if there is a 1-A hierarchy present within the DC multiverse that you can name because I wasn't aware people even recognized that those arguments actually existed. Even then it is one fictional transcendence because it views the DC multiverse as fiction and nothing less. So how could it be anything else? That's going off what Grant says. I know you already said that it being viewed as infinitesimal bacteria wasn't to be taken literally but could you elaborate on that further too?Ultima Reality said:
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We already explained it tirelessly that this narrative of "Degrees of transcendence" doesn't exist. It's something one verse has which people like must apply to all of fiction
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1-A hiearchy in DC:
The Endless-The Angels-Lucifer/Micheal-Perpetua-Father Time/Mother Night-The Presence.
Also, I think we explained already that it isn't, "one transcendence". It exceeds the 1-A hiearchy of DC to an unfathombale scale that it can't fit in 1-A. The degree of transcendence also matters.
The Endless-The Angels-Lucifer/Micheal-Perpetua-Father Time/Mother Night-The Presence.
Also, I think we explained already that it isn't, "one transcendence". It exceeds the 1-A hiearchy of DC to an unfathombale scale that it can't fit in 1-A. The degree of transcendence also matters.
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It exists in verses where it has been displayed. If it doesn't exist then what is the point of the new 1-A system where "degrees of transcendence" is the biggest thing?
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