Misconception about the Overvoid

[VeryGoofyToddler]

That is again, indeed, seen in the comics, the Multiversity map calls it beyond thought, the Book of Limbo, which is all possible books, described it as beyond thought and understanding as a whole.

The location of said place is beyond thought which does not apply to things within the Multiverse describing the Overvoid. The people who read it couldn't almost describe what they were seeing which has no correlation to being beyond thought or understanding since both were applied already to what the Overvoid is.

It only applies if you're literally standing in the Overvoid as being beyond thought and that's only if you perish. If not then you can just float around freely and imagine things.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

That is, again, not what I was saying. What I am saying is that to even think of the Overvoid, you have thought of a limited scope out of it, to say "The Overvoid is an immaculate perfection", you have no thought of something to describe the Overvoid, that thought gets resolved back into its unity, thus, you have described an "unresolved" Overvoid.

That's literally not how it works. What we think of God is not limiting him unless we put constraining limits on him. To describe Overvoid as immaculate perfection which is meant to be allegorical to infinite nothing prior to the Flaw is directly describing what it was.

Those “contradictions” are resolved within the Overvoid. Without entering the Overvoid where those things happen then you can imagine what the Overvoid is via the Book and the Cave drawings. You're describing a weird paradox which is not all what the stories imply. The Overvoid is not unified with the Flaw and is in a relationship to be distinct from what that Flaw is thus what applies to the Flaw with those things, does not to the Overvoid.

Also, what is unresolved “Overvoid?” I assume you just mean without contradiction or limit of thoughts but that's not what resolve means.

 

[Deagonx]

Why though, that's word for word what it says.

No, it isn't? What is the purpose in making such a claim when it isn't true? There's nothing in the scan that says the probe is an "extension of Monitor" and the few places where your claim and the scan overlap are not "word for word" the same.

If your problem lies in what exactly Mandrakk is an extension of, then it is the Overvoid, the Overvoid generated him.

The problem is in the assumption that the phrase "extending" something means we must imagine the probe as an "extension of" something which is a non-sequitur. Sending a probe somewhere doesn't mean it's a part of you.

We do, indeed, index indescribable entities.

And then we had a whole CRT about how negative theology is basically bunk and in the best case scenario we just limit it to a single layer of infinity above whatever cosmology it exists above. So even if there actually was canonical evidence that negative theology applied to the Overvoid (there isn't) this still wouldn't change anything.

This is becoming a little desperate.

Desperate is making yet another DOA cosmology revision thread.

That is again, indeed, seen in the comics, the Multiversity map calls it beyond thought, the Book of Limbo, which is all possible books, described it as beyond thought and understanding as a whole.

"beyond thought" does not mean "cannot be described" and the argument is self-defeating. You are using a description to affirm the absence of description. You can't simultaneously endorse the notion that it is "beyond thought" while also saying all descriptions about it are inaccurate.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

"beyond thought" does not mean "cannot be described" and the argument is self-defeating. You are using a description to affirm the absence of description. You can't simultaneously endorse the notion that it is "beyond thought" while also saying all descriptions about it are inaccurate.

You perfectly summed that up. Should be common sense.

 

[Deagonx]

Indeed, its more or less inherently nonsensical and is almost textbook special pleading. For instance:

By that very metric, to even call the Overvoid an "immaculate intelligence" or "Monitor" you, in fact, put it within the bounds of thought, which it explicitly isn't dependent or limited to. That, on it's own, is a debunk to the idea of the Overvoid being within any duality via the Multiversity scans, because whatever the Cave understands of the Overvoid is not even the full scope of the Overvoid, you would be assuming that an intentionally limited perspective on the Overvoid is in a duality, when even just saying that, makes it a "thought", and thus, the actual full, undefinable scope of the Overvoid, stays non-dual all the same.

Anything that is said about the Overvoid is actually a limited inaccurate description...

Except the description of it being "non-dual." That's totally justified. Miraculously this argument is only being used to dismiss the information that acts as an inconvenience to their argument, and not all of the information they're relying on to make the argument in the first place. Funny how that works.

 

[Alonik]

It’s seen in the scan, probe is blending in with the background of the flaw.

Probe in which is a extension of Monitor, in that given context, Dax Novu, As I've already shown here through Multiversity: Guidebook.

What’s in the OP is the reason. And we have very pull together arguments, visuals, and explanations that prove exactly why the book of limbo and the cave shouldn’t be able to grasp the Overvoid and only the limited understanding that is Dax Novu.

Sure, and i've already adressed that.

We already went over this. Secret files and WoG refute this claim entirely.

Sure, and I've replied all your points, go back and answer properly, all you have done is "my points debunks yours" while strawming what i said.

Why though, that's word for word what it says.

If your problem lies in what exactly Mandrakk is an extension of, then it is the Overvoid, the Overvoid generated him.

The Over-void generated Dax Novu, who was contaminated and split in two. At no point in the comic does it say that the Over-void created Mandrakk from nothing, Mandrakk is the outcome of Novu interact with the flaw, not the Overvoid.

First the Monitor, Dax Novu, is created, then it enters the flaw and is contaminated, and split in two, one part of this split is Mandrakk, which is the part of Dax Novu that felt contaminated.
It's interesting how you and Xearsay pretend that Dax Novu has never been contaminated and split in two, and especially how you twol ignore that the text you use is literally using Dax Novu to refer for the whole that part , and not the overvoid.

• You're the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse! Isn't it obvious? You were Dax Novu!

I'd even like to remind both of you two things pointed out by Deagon and Goofy in the thread, and add my pov to it:

The more I read from the OP. The less it makes sense, Mandrakk was originally part of Dax Novu. So the “part” of the Monitor would refer to when he was Dax Novu which was “contaminated” by the Multiverse. Overvoid was just curious on the nature of the Flaw that hinder its perfection.

Moreover, considering Mandrakk a "part" of the Overvoid makes the notion of true duality even more challenging to justify.

The Over-void is everything that the flaw is not, so it simply cannot be contaminated by it, nor have a "part" that has been contaminated by it, that would already be contradictory, and a part of the Overvoid would no longer be "everything that the flaw is not", hence in my interpretation of what Deagon said that this is challenging to justify (correct me if i'm wrong). So again: This talks about Dax Novu being split into two (which one was Mandrakk), and Mandrakk being the part of Dax Novu that felt contaminated.

I'm not sure what even is the argument here, that the book of Limbo and the Cave describe the Overvoid "good enough"? How exactly does that counter the Overvoid being beyond thought?
My point isn't how "accurate" the story is, its how whatever they do, they've already limited the Overvoid, and are now referring to a lower unity.

All right, I know what your point is, and I'm totally against it.

Your base revolves entirely around saying that this "lower unity" is Mandrakk, which I have already given points against several times and even in the other thread, and now again, as shown above.

It's honestly basic deductive reasoning here, the Overvoid is a "mind" per say, the Monitors have been generated within that mind, so they are thoughts of the Overvoid, figments of its imagination.

And I'll just keep answering with the whole part of what I said, which you cut out:

The scan also doesn't say "Mandrakk as a Monitor is essentially a thought of the Overvoid".

• It reacted as a godlike mega-mind would do----it generated a race of "angels" or "monitors"

Which goes to show that Mandrakk is not an extension of the Over-void, although is from Dax Novu, which is the evil manifestation of. It is only said that he was generated, therefore created, just like the Angels created by the Source aren't essentially the Source, though paradoxically, it's everything.

On to the next one:

Why would it not be? The Overvoid "extends" a probe, as I have already explained, for the Overvoid to even do anything it immediately has to be an emanation, if Mandrakk is extended by the Overvoid and represents a part of a duality where he is "all-evil", then that is simply another fall from non-duality.

Also seen when the Monitors are referred to as "direct descendents" even though the Overvoid didn't particularly... reproduce.

Monitor (Dax Novu) "extends" a probe. Mandrakk isn't extended by the Over-void. Mandrakk is a result of Dax Novu being blinded and split in two, and between that split, mandrak is the Part of Monitor (Dax Novu) that felt contaminated. Over-void wasn't contaminated, it was Dax Novu, stop using that scan that talks about Mandrakk being a part of Dax Novu, as if it was a part of the Over-void.

Btw: I don't agree with the thread, i agreed with the big picture, which is somewhat what @Elizio33 have said, Overvoid is outside of normal dualism systems.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

No, it isn't? What is the purpose in making such a claim when it isn't true? There's nothing in the scan that says the probe is an "extension of Monitor" and the few places where your claim and the scan overlap are not "word for word" the same.

The problem is in the assumption that the phrase "extending" something means we must imagine the probe as an "extension of" something which is a non-sequitur. Sending a probe somewhere doesn't mean it's a part of you.

This is honestly not even a sound argument, fret not, let's explain why.

Spoiler: Extends

The meaning of "extend" is separated into two known general meanings split into different scenarios:

• cause to cover a wider area; make larger.

Example: "the car park has been extended"

• hold (something) out towards someone.

Example: "I nod and extend my hand"

We can immediately rule out that it is inaccurate to describe the relationship between Mandrakk and The Overvoid as Mandrakk being an "expansion" to the Overvoid, considering it assumes the Overvoid to be a thing extending something outwards of itself when we are pretty confident that Mandrakk is within the Overvoid, not outside, and that the Overvoid itself wasn't really stretched further or anything.

We can also immediately rule out that Mandrakk is not an object that the Overvoid threw at the Flaw to examine it, considering the wording in the two issues make it pretty clear that Mandrakk is a "part" of it, rather than something that is simply a separate entity "extended forth" of it and onto the Flaw, its explicitly a part of it, with the infection of Mandrakk leading into the infection of the "Monitor".

And thus, it is not possible for Mandrakk to be a separate entity, the wording is pretty clear, to "extend from something" is for that very thing to reach out to you, it doesn't help your case when Mandrakk is explicitly defined as a part of the Overvoid.

Also, it is literally in the name, the literal process of extending from something is an extension.

And then we had a whole CRT about how negative theology is basically bunk and in the best case scenario we just limit it to a single layer of infinity above whatever cosmology it exists above. So even if there actually was canonical evidence that negative theology applied to the Overvoid (there isn't) this still wouldn't change anything.

As for one, tiering was never mentioned in this entire thread, the Overvoid can be Low 2-C for all I care but it's the very fact that the story itself describes it as incomprehensible and unknowable.

Desperate is making yet another DOA cosmology revision thread.

Desperate is using all measures to combat a revision including using objectively false premises at random (I.e. indescribable entities cannot be indexed properly on the wiki) to prove your point. That, is desperate and unnecessary.

"beyond thought" does not mean "cannot be described" and the argument is self-defeating. You are using a description to affirm the absence of description. You can't simultaneously endorse the notion that it is "beyond thought" while also saying all descriptions about it are inaccurate.

The bolded part is built purely on the idea that I am referring to a specific person who's describing the Overvoids undefinability to himself, a scenario where such an argument can indeed be made, for example, the idea that a born blind person cannot particularly think of the colour blue for example, this does not imply that the color blue is apophatic, but rather simply something that a born blind person just cannot think of without the existence of vision.

This argument then crumbles apart when we acknowledge that we aren't referring to a singular source, but rather a book that is described literally every possible book that can ever be written, the story of all stories, and a book with infinite pages, calling the Overvoid not just "beyond thought", but also beyond understanding.

With all of that being said, now looking at the interviews which expand upon this further, the Overvoid is just straight up described as the total unity and dissolution of all thought, and that even a thought regarding an entity like that is also no more, then just another thought, which it exists beyond, its literally intended to be paradoxical.

Moving to the rest of this bit, Deagon argues that to call an apophatic entity "apophatic", is self-defeating, which to some extent, yeah, that is the literal idea of negative theology, to call it anything, is missing the point.

However, the word "apophatic" in particular isn't an attempt at thinking about the God (in this context, the Overvoid), its the acknowledgment that you literally cannot. So this is a moot point

This does not however mean that calling it anything for that matter is "inaccurate", I've made it pretty clear before, even in the OP, and recently, here that this was not what I am getting at, it's that it is simply just another thought, made out of prepositions, that the Overvoid exists beyond all the same.

 

[Deagonx]

We can also immediately rule out that Mandrakk is not an object that the Overvoid threw at the Flaw to examine it,

Yeah, I don't agree with that at all. A probe is exactly the kind of object you would send out to examine something.

That even a thought regarding an entity like that is also no more, then just another thought, which it exists beyond, its literally intended to be paradoxical.

A paradox is a logically self-contradictory statement or a statement that runs contrary to one's expectation. It is a statement that, despite apparently valid reasoning from true premises, leads to a seemingly self-contradictory or a logically unacceptable conclusion.

If you describe your stance as something that leads to a "logically unacceptable conclusion" then I am not sure why we would accept it.

the Overvoid is just straight up described as the total unity and dissolution of all thought

that the Overvoid exists beyond all the same.

Are these statements about the Overvoid true/correct? Or does its alleged apophaticism render them incorrect?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

As for one, tiering was never mentioned in this entire thread, the Overvoid can be Low 2-C for all I care but it's the very fact that the story itself describes it as incomprehensible and unknowable.

He isn't talking about tiering. He was arguing that if that were true he simply be one level of existence above the Multiverse.

This argument then crumbles apart when we acknowledge that we aren't referring to a singular source, but rather a book that is described literally every possible book that can ever be written, the story of all stories, and a book with infinite pages, calling the Overvoid not just "beyond thought", but also beyond understanding.

There's no “beyond” understanding and even then the phrase has been hatch a lot when comparing lower beings to higher.

Moving to the rest of this bit, Deagon argues that to call an apophatic entity "apophatic", is self-defeating, which to some extent, yeah, that is the literal idea of negative theology, to call it anything, is missing the point.

This point doesn't apply to the theory, I don't know where this was going for.

However, the word "apophatic" in particular isn't an attempt at thinking about the God (in this context, the Overvoid), its the acknowledgment that you literally cannot. So this is a moot point

That defeats the point.

 

[MichaelJZero]

A couple months ago, a thread was made that removed the Overvoids non-duality, which is obviously weird considering the general attribute that described the Overvoid was that it is a non-dual void. This thread is not to say that the other thread was wrong, partially at least, it's clearing up a misconception regarding the Overvoid.

Eitherway, after some talks with @Xearsay, we kinda realized something pretty important regarding the Overvoid, the general idea is: what the book of Limbo (as well as other sources) describe as the Overvoid, is most likely Dax Novu. As for why? strap in, cuz this do be long.

To explain this, let's go back to the first time we were introduced to this origin story in DC, Final Crisis: Superman Beyond.

Here, the origin story begins by establishing that the Flaw (everything the overvoid is not) started existing on it's perfection, then the Overvoid begins to examine said Flaw, then here, the Overvoid extends a probe that “secures contact” with the Flaw, and then discovers stories and narratives within it, with the Overvoid itself being the white pagespace of the comicbook, it is essentially exterior to all stories, with Merryman describing the origin of the Flaw to be the story with all the other stories in it, which leads us to the next scan, which tells us how the Overvoid essentially has no idea of the very concept of what a story is, then tells us that because of that, the probe “withdrawed” and the Overvoid was contaminated by the endless play of narrative.

In the Multiversity Guidebook, we get more details into that event here, where it is said that the probe described prior was actually Dax Novu, Mandrakk prior to getting infected, and it also describes in the scan after, where Dax is described as having been contaminated by the endless play of narrative.

To summarize, the Overvoid is a perfect void that notices a Flaw on itself, extends a probe to examine what this Flaw is, then gets "contaminated" by the narratives of the Flaw.

Immediately, we can very clearly see how Final Crisis attributes Dax Novu to be the Overvoids consciousness in these scans, considering when Dax Novu was contaminated, the Overvoid was also described as being infected, when in fact, Dax would've been the one to see what exactly the Flaw was with the aforementioned “Monitor Examination,” and due to that fact, the actual examination down here was conducted by Dax Novu himself, which then means that only he would've been Infected, but the comic tells us that his infection is equated to the Overvoids.

To move further with the following, let's first establish the Overvoids only attribute, its undefinability. The Overvoid is repeatedly described as beyond thought, within DC, that practically extends all things that can be imagined, and all that cannot be imagined, known as the “dimensional superstructure”. This is also explicitly shown in Final Crisis with the book of Limbo, the book essentially represents the whole infinite monkey theorem, where a monkey randomly typing on a typewriter for an infinite amount of time will type any possible given text, including the full works of Shakespeare at random, and by the time of Final Crisis, that book was essentially the book that contained an infinite amount of pages, a book that contains all possible books.

Point is, this book is essentially the story of all stories as Merryman describes it, and even it describes The Overvoid as an “immense awareness without limit or definition”. With that set in stone, its easy to just apply that same logic right back at the book of Limbo itself, as that it is simply impossible for the book to capture the actual full picture of the Overvoid, if literally all possible character strings cannot, that is not to say that the Void described in the book isn't the Overvoid, but is to say that it simply does not actually fully understand the full unknowable essence of the Overvoid as the white page, making it, a partially unreliable narrator. And for that very reason, to even attempt to make a statement/thought on the Overvoid, you would've limited it all the same.

Put that in mind and keep it for the next bit. But for now, let's move on to the Overvoids non-duality. There is somewhere around 7 separate instances where the Overvoid is called a non-dual void, four in comics, and three in word of gods.

Perhaps one of the more explicit scans for this is right here, in Green Lantern (2019) #1, the Overvoid is just blatantly described as a “non-dual omni-awareness” now, fret not, these words are not just random mumbo jumbo but actually philosophically mean something. I'll try to use this school of thought [Hegelianism] only to explain it better a little better because of this being a prominent concept in it, but to summarize, Hegelianism essentially posits that reality and idea go through the “dialectical process”, a triadic movement of thesis (a statement about a thing), antithesis (a contradiction to that statement) and a synthesis (a resolution of the contradictions in a higher-level understanding)

A “non-dual awareness”, would be like the final synthesis to pretty much everything, it would transcend all the contradictions that make a subject a subject, and an object an object, transcending divisionality as a whole, in the sense that it would be an awareness, that knows no differentiation from anything, not even dualties, and thus, an awareness that is non-dual. This does indeed exist in the Overvoid, considering the Overvoid, is indeed, a non-dual mind that resolves all possible contradictions.

In Final Crisis: Secret Files, the Source (which we accept to be the Overvoid, even though the reality is more nuanced, I digress), is referred to as the ultimate concept, that contains all concepts (“life and anti-life, evil and good, up and down, in and out, black and white, all at once”), as well as their opposites.

In Doom Patrol vol.1, issue #41, the story introduces a Tower of Babel type concept. Here, a metaphorical "tower" is described as originating from Earth and reaching the heights of the heavens. Here, it is described that advancing through its levels symbolizes an ascent of consciousness toward divinity. In the subsequent scan, it is suggested that Judge Rock has perceived a path beyond the very notion of duality itself, and finally, here, the tower concept signifies a symbolic desire to surpass the literal concept of duality and attain unity with a fundamental state of pure consciousness, I.e. the Overvoid.

Furthermore, in Kid Eternity vol.2 #3, this is more expanded upon with it being stated that all things emanated down from a “pure being” that is without definition. With that emanation being considered falling down through the strata of consciousness, as a form of fall from “non-duality to duality” (I.e. the non-dual awareness we talked about earlier), with it being described here how this "tower" described prior can be climbed, reaching back into pure being.

The Overvoid itself dissolves all contradictions into its unity.


This sentiment is shared again here, when Grant refers to the Overvoid as the conscious ground of being that underlies everything, including all contradictions.


The idea here being that throughout all things, differentiation exists through contradictions, a dog is not the color blue, because there are inherent contradictions between the subject and the predicate, for something that has no contradictions between anything, all divisions lose meaning, and by extension, all dualities also lose meaning, so the in-comic “non-dual” statements also support the WoGs above, but eitherway, we already do completely understand that to this higher level consciousness, the Flaw (all contradictions) is essentially just one big contradiction.

And if the concept described above is maybe a little confusing, no worries, this illustration by yours truly might help explain it better:


Which then brings us all the way back into the beginning of this thread, the book of Limbo interpreted Mandrakks contamination to also mean that the Overvoid itself also got contaminated, and also interpreted the Overvoid to view the Flaw as a contradiction, something that obviously does not add up when we look at all the other scans, and by extension, the book also had to view the Overvoid prior to the probe as just the probe's consciousness.

This is all explained in the final issue of Final Crisis: Superman Beyond, in which Superman, after reading the book of Limbo, and ascending into a more meaningful level of existence to pilot an armor of pure thought (another prominent Hegelian concept), calls Mandrakk the “part of monitor that felt contaminated by the Flaw”, following it with “isn't it obvious?”

The Overvoid itself is a literal mind, not that it is a brain connected to a body, no, it literally is a super-mind that contains everything within itself, being a part of that Super-mind that got “contaminated” immediately implies that Dax Novu was no more, no less, just the part of the Overvoids consciousness (thoughts and feelings specifically) that took issue with the Flaw being put upon this “perfection.” Something that we can already make out without the above, because again, the Overvoid resolves all thoughts overall, obviously by extension including thoughts about its own self.

As seen in the Arthurmag interview above, where Grant says that a sentient being might confuse an encounter with the Overvoid as an encounter with God, but considering the Overvoid would resolve thoughts regarding itself as well, this would be no more then just another resolved thought within it (I.e. the Overvoid is God). So the book of Limbo, eitherway, failed to really capture the full essence of the Overvoid, but what it was able to capture, was Mandrakk.

As if this wasn't already clear enough, in Supergods, Grant explains this further here, by explaining how Mandrakk is at the end of day, generated by the Overvoid as a “what if?” question where the white page of a comic takes issue with the material put on it, with the scan actually saying that Mandrakk is the cosmic vampire that was generated out of the Overvoid as a form of “fighting back” against that material, but again, we can verifiably confirm how Mandrakk wasn't particularly the original probe, that would've been Dax Novu, and how he was reborn as Mandrakk, with Dax Novu being the part of the Overvoids consciousness that took issue with said material.

That is not to say that I think Mandrakk is literally like a second, lower Overvoid, it is to say that the book of Limbo captured a book that is not as “perfect” as the Overvoid, because a statement such as "the Overvoid is the immaculate perfection" would lose its meaning when applied to the Overvoid, simply because if "The Overvoid" and "immaculate perfection" essentially refer to the same thing when applied to a oneness, you haven't conveyed any meaningful information, or at least, information that actually defines the full scope of the Overvoid. With that limited view, this limited scope of the Overvoid will be assumed to be the “part of monitor that felt contaminated”. And we should probably start looking at Overvoid statements in general in that same fashion, that to describe the Overvoid, you would've essentially failed to describe it off the jump. Here is another illustration that should explain it better:


But at the end of the day, what is the Overvoid, then? It is the white page that the comic is written, the White page is a non-dual awareness that has no “contradiction” within it, that is to say, to state that the Flaw is a “contradiction” to it as the book says, is false, because the state that the Overvoid exists in, has no contradictions, so the Flaw doesn't particularly even “exist” within it, as I will get to in a second.

So to just summarize the above, give Non-duality (Aspect 2) back to the Overvoid, because it has never even directly interacted with the Flaw, or is it even possible for the Overvoid to view the Flaw as anything, because the Overvoid resolves all things back into a unity, Mandrakk was simply that part of the mind that is the Overvoid, that felt as if it was contaminated by the Flaw, so if the Flaw is a “contradiction”, the Overvoids awareness has already “resolved” it.

What level of non-duality, then?
Let's get something out of the way, the idea of the initial Flaw seen in Final Crisis was not particularly that it was literally everything that the Overvoid could not be, in the essence that if the Overvoid is completely perfect without contradiction or duality, the Flaw would be all contradiction, and duality, and but specifically, all possibilities that arise out of them, as seen in the second quote above.

This again, is not to say that the Flaw is inherently separate from the Overvoid, considering how Kid Eternity and Doom Patrol explain it, to arise to the consciousness of non-dual pure being, going from dual reality into the non-dual, you'd essentially just be striping down your reality, mind and spirit down back into the Void, as in, the Overvoid exists everywhere, simply at the deepest level.

So all dualites, all opposites, and contradictions at the deepest, resolved level, are all the Overvoid. But more importantly, the Flaw, represents these dualities, and as we have discussed prior, the Flaw is pretty much no more than a “resolved issue” in the eyes of the Overvoid, even more importantly, the Overvoid itself is a mind, again, if we were to look at the metaphors here, the Overvoid would be the super-mind, and everything else would be within that mind, a figment of its imagination, just how the Monitors (who, prior to becoming narrative based entities, oversaw the entire flaw) are explicitly also figments of its imagination.


So to summarize, duality as a whole is literally a figment of its imagination, if viewing dual systems as a whole (as well as the very integral property that makes dualites: contradictions) as fiction isn't qualitative superiority, I do not know what is (it is.)

And if this wasn't clear already, the Overvoid is most definitely not just "alien" to duality, but very explicitly transcendent to the very concept of what a duality is, as seen in the Doom Patrol scans.

So not only do I propose just Nonduality (Nature: 1 Aspect 2) to the Overvoid, I propose Nonduality (Nature 2, Aspect 2). I also think this could possibly act as a separate key to either Mandrakk, or the Overvoid (or both) being pretty much just the imperfect version of the Overvoid, the one that is seen in the story with the Flaw.

Justifications

The following either becomes justification for a separate key, given to either Mandrakk or the Overvoid (or both), or just a note under the Overvoids page explaining what we talked about above.



Note: this likely gives some form of Transduality (Type 1) to that limited scope of the Overvoid if it ever becomes a separate key, as that it's pretty much described to be as “limitless”, with the Flaw in particular being the only unresolved contradiction or duality in its eyes.

Agrees: Firestorm808 (agrees with non-duality, uncertain as to which aspect), Alonik (agrees, has a different perspective on Mandrakk), Xearsay (agrees with everything)

Neutral:

Disagrees: Deagonx, Elizio33 (Agrees with Deagonx, although is open to the Overvoids non-duality), VeryGoofyToddler (agrees with non-duality, disagrees with most premises)

Great stuff. Here are a few things to help others on the Absolute Void and Dax Novu topics. In case anyone wants to research the interviews most of this cosmology was entirely based on, from the religious figures who explain it IRL. Just here to give the references to the interviews all of this was based on and the religious side of it and fill the gaps of the original post with the IRL explanations and also another interview snip from Grant I have.

First thing, for those here who don't know, starting at the beginning, this entire arc was based on the Yogi Maharishi's talks on Existence and the Absolute Void. Grant Morrison based all of the cosmology on transcedental meditation and buddist mandala cosmology maps for the visuals. Grant has said this in interviews a few times, as well as the book SuperGods. In this religious view held by many Hinduists, the Absolute Void is the Parabrahman ultimate reality and unconsciousness that is not the same as The Creator.

Here is a video and a few key statements about what this Absolute Void is:
Maharishi Explains the Absolute Void

Takeaways from quotes in these videos:

1. The Creator God is not the Absolute Void.
2. Everything not the Absolute Void, is considered "an unreality and not true."
3. Only elements of the Absolute Void are the ultimate real-reality.
4. The Absolute Void has the ability to perform any action or unaction, including being sentient and creative, and also then not having sentience. And this is not to be confused with the mind and creativity of the "Creator". This void is not the Creator. The Creator is part of the unreal that stems from the Void.
5. Brahman and the Creator, Intent, knowledge, and data, requires the knower to know it. Meaning sentient life and minds are required for this to exist. The Absolute does not require the knower, it is truth. This means the Creator God, and in the case of DC, Yahweh the Presence, is needs sentient minds to allow himself to exist. The Absolute Void does not require anything.

Here are some quotes from this interview:

"The Absolute is, whether or not anyone knows its there. Its validity is not dependant on the knower. Brahman is not like the Absolute. But Brahman has no validty without the knower. So that is a thing of unity, like vacuum state, flat, at the basis of all things. " - Maharishi

Everything that is, existence, is essentially unreal. Similar to how Azathoth dreams existence, and nothing in it is really real. So too, sort of, the Monitor Mind, the Absolute Void is the only actually real thing. And whatever it specifically has intent for and decides to do, are actionable truths, according to the nonduality spectrum rule.

That means only the Overvoid, the Nil Monitors, and Mandrakk, are the real things. Everything not real has a story. This ultimate story was embodied as the Cosmic Armor to this nondual Absolute Void when it decided to be sentient for a period.

The Questions given to Maharishi:

"Does God exist beyond all creation and disallusion beynd the ultimate reality of the Absolute reality? Is God then the Supreme personality of Brahman (the Creator).

Maharishi answers:

"No. We are distinguishing Brahman in terms of the knower, with no knower, there is no Brahman. The Absolute is whether one knows it or not. Brahman is not, depends on the knower." -Maharishi

Interviewer:

"Then the ultimate reality is the vacuum state Absolute?"

Maharishi:

"Ultimate reality is that, yes."

Another interview:

Maharishi 2

"The total ruling power is in the unmanifest, this field, the nothingness, from which intent is created like the emptiness of a seed sprouting roots"

|...Dr. Hagelin deals wit hthe unmanifest field, the 0 point field, 0 point motion, that admin power is not seen not active which is silent. Where is the ruler? In the Unmanifest. (Not The Creator, Absolute Void is the prime authority), The ruler of the Universe is not that creativity, which has to come down to any isolated time/space bound area, no no, it remains where it is. It is omnipresent. And omnisentient, and omnipotent. THIS is the ruler of the universe, what is it? Its the awareness fully lively on this level of nothingness, as the hallowness of the seed. This awareness has no objective to the individual mind or awareness or ego (talking about the Creator Brahma intent)"

Another Interview:

Maharishi 3

"From that nothingness sprouts everything, all variety. This shows us there is a field, abstract, unmanifest. Unified Field. Physics has located it. Math has located it, big 0. Just a 0 just like the hallowness of a seed. Thought comes from 0, nothing, example I want to eat a mango, and then it comes to I want to eat other fruits (I am paraphrashing), and from that explodes a variety of sources and realities. It starts from the unmanifest. From that one source, everything begins.


The Takeaways:

1. Void is nondual. Everything is a part of it and from it, and not the reverse where this void is transcended or adapted or merged with something else.
2. The void field is not the Creator, the Creator is Brahman and sprouted from the Field.
3. It is the source of all divergencies, conceptual or physical.

Once this is understood as the context, you can begin to understand Dax Novu, the Nil Monitors, and the function of the Flaw.

Dax Novu was created by the Overvoid as special intent during a phase that the Unmanifest Field wanted to be active. The only creations it made were the Monitors of Nil, and Dax Novu. One can speculate also that Nil itself was made by the Overvoid to help the Monitors with their functions, but data is not provided so we cannot say objectively. At best, we can speculate that it is logical that the Overvoid gave them a place to work safely from the infectious nature of the Flaw. As Maharishi states in the interviews, the Absolute has the ability to become aware and then not aware. It can create, and then not create. It can be sentient, and then go back to nonsentience.

Dax Novu, while a probe, was the corruption of the Overvoid. The Monitors of Nil, were sentient ideas of the Overvoid. Monitors are thoughts of something. Logically, Thoughts of the Overvoid is the only actually sound answer.

(Final Crisis 7)

We can further double down on this being a fact, from this interview, where Grant states the Overvoid imagines them.

Novu was the only actual "piece" of the nothing. A significant portion of the intent of this unified unmanifest nondual void.

What is significant about this? The imagined thought processes of the Overvoid were infinitely transcended by Dax Novu's personage. Dax Novu is no mere thought process of the Overvoid, or a random worker sentient thought that has the ability to perform functions. Dax Novu, is the corruption of the Overvoid itself.

(Superman Beyond 2)

"You're the part of Monitor that felt contaminated by the Multiverse, isn't it obvious?"

This is further expanded on with speculations from Steve Orlando, who says that Mandrakk is the Overvoid itself playing through the narrative and that he believes this speculation is valid.


According to the religious implications this entire arc is based on and thusly proven to be based on....repeatedly...the only actually real things are the Overvoid, Mandrakk/Dax, and the Nil Monitors. They come from the prime reality of the umanifest while everything else is the totality of the unreal. Maharishi calls this "unreal" and the unmanifest field the true reality. Its a bit confusing but basically, the unmanifest field is the actual truth and everything else is a stray unnoticable result of the truth of the Absolute Void.

This includes the entire Flaw itself, and the contents of the Flaw. This Flaw infected the Overvoid with worries and speculations.

And it is what it tasked a big chunk of itself on a conceptual level, to go investigate. The problem, this chunk of corruption was further corrupted beyond recognition and stopped its original function of investigation.

This is significant, because this is what the cosmology for final crisis looks like:

Grants bleed separates the meta canons of stories. Other authors do not do that with the concept of bleed, its physics based, and separates regular universes. Grants Bleed would be above E33 because we are contained in that too.

The Flaw was confirmed to contain Plane Time, which is all fictional space. Beyond that is the Fictional membrane that nothing in Plane time can bypass.

And if you want some objective proof that Grant wants the Hand of the Source or Perpetua to be in Plane Time, here you go.

The biggest misconception is the notion of manifold collapse. There is a prime Overvoid exterior the fictional membrane, in context. And there is also an Overvoid for many of the DCU narratives written by various others that are all contained in and below Cube Time. And this was alluded to in Milk Wars with rippling voids in voids and limbos in limbos over and over.

Grant is explicite, that the context of this Final Crisis variant is exterior Plane Time and beyond the fictional barrier. The reason?

Grant had a drug trip once in India when his dad was passing away, I believe, and silvery weird abstract beings manifested themselves and took Grant to their vantage point beyond existence, and showed him how everything worked. He came back, and wrote those characters as the Nil Monitors in Final Crisis. This was confirmed in his video series for the SuperGods novel interviews on YouTube.

The biggest takeaway from all of this is context. And that authors do different things with the same concepts and characters. We know the context of Grants version because Grant has extensive, plentiful detailed conversations on what it all actually means and what the exact parameters are.

The Final Crisis Overvoid is special. It has a context of not being in Plane Time. Everyone else's variant of the Overvoid is inside of Plane Time. Grant even says the Hand of the Source is in Plane Time. So the innarrative DCU Source is not the same Source referenced elsewhere inside of Plane Time.

Hope that helps.
-MJ

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Please let's not start a chain reaction where we fight for the next 3 pages with that individual, he has made it clear in the past years that he does not wish to change his opinion, so there is no reason to start derailment, especially considering the points brought up here aren't our own.

 

[Deagonx]

this entire arc was based on the Yogi Maharishi's talks on Existence and the Absolute Void. Grant Morrison based all of the cosmology on transcedental meditation and buddist mandala cosmology maps for the visuals. Grant has said this in interviews a few times, as well as the book SuperGods

No, it wasn't. Grant has never spoken about this Hindu guru and the only thing he mentions in SuperGods was Tibetan Meditation, not Transcendental Meditation. Maharishi wasn't Tibetan.

Don't derail this thread further, thanks.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

The only reference to a 0 Void in all definitions was Vertigo Void. Overvoid was never described as that which some individuals claim it is.

 

[Swordsaint456]

huzzah. more scans I can steal
neutral for now

 

[Swordsaint456]

of pages, a book that contains all possible books.

this scan doesnt work

s referred to as the ultimate concept,

neither does this for me at least

 

[Antvasima]

@Alonik @Deagonx @VeryGoofyToddler @Elizio33

Do you think that type 1 nonduality for the Overvoid seems acceptable to apply or not, and if so or if not, for what reasons?

 

[Elizio33]

@Alonik @Deagonx @VeryGoofyToddler @Elizio33

Do you think that type 1 nonduality for the Overvoid seems acceptable to apply or not, and if so or if not, for what reasons?

I think type 1 for the Overvoid is acceptable because it is outside standard binary systems, but its immaculate perfection can be tainted by duality and the Overvoid can become a duality with the flaw.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That reasoning seems sensible to me.

What do the rest of you think?

 

[Xearsay]

Okay. That reasoning seems sensible to me.

What do the rest of you think?

Can you ping some more people to evaluate this thread? Maybe like Elizhaa, Emripu again, Maverick, Lord Griffin, Lonkitt, or Plank? Also Qawsed since he said he was going to look into this thread.

 

[Antvasima]

Do you think that type 1 nonduality for the Overvoid seems acceptable to apply or not, and if so or if not, for what reasons?

@Qawsedf234 @Planck69 @Emirp sumitpo

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

Type 1 seems fine.

 

[Deagonx]

I have my reservations, but if it puts this issue to bed I can abide by Type 1 Nonduality.

 

[Qawsedf234]

Do you think that type 1 nonduality for the Overvoid seems acceptable to apply or not, and if so or if not, for what reasons?

Well:

Specific Nonduality: Characters existing in a nondual state regarding one or more specific dual systems. This type of nonduality immunizes the user against attacks and haxes bound by the specific dual systems in question.

Which I think fits. Overmind probably has to much against it for Generally or Plurality, but just specifics are fine imo.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We seem to have reached a conclusion here then.

Is somebody here willing to write a justification text for the ability that we can place within the Overvoid page?

 

[Deagonx]

Is somebody here willing to write a justification text for the ability that we can place within the Overvoid page?

Nonduality (Type 1; Described as a non-dual omni-awareness)

 

[Antvasima]

I think that we likely need a bit more elaboration than that.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I think that we likely need a bit more elaboration than that.

There's not much to go from the stories.

 

[Deagonx]

Nonduality (Type 1; Described as a non-dual omni-awareness, and an "ultimate concept" that contains within it multiple dualities such as life and anti-life, good and evil, in and out, and black and white.)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. That is probably fine, although we can likely also quote the Grant Morrison interview in which he described The Source/The Overvoid as beyond being divided in any way, when referring to Jim Starlin's "Death of the New Gods", as supplementary evidence.

 

[Swordsaint456]

shall the thread be closed then?

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. That is probably fine, although we can likely also quote the Grant Morrison interview in which he described The Source/The Overvoid as beyond being divided in any way, when referring to Jim Starlin's "Death of the New Gods", as supplementary evidence.

That is the second scan.

 

[Alonik]

@Alonik @Deagonx @VeryGoofyToddler @Elizio33

Do you think that type 1 nonduality for the Overvoid seems acceptable to apply or not, and if so or if not, for what reasons?

I think type 1 for the Overvoid is acceptable because it is outside standard binary systems, but its immaculate perfection can be tainted by duality and the Overvoid can become a duality with the flaw.

I agree with this too, i just don't agree with the "its immaculate perfection can be tainted by duality", although i agree with overvoid outside, and Overvoid becoming a duality with the flaw, i mean, it is straightforward said that the flaw was born inside the Overvoid being everything that the Overvoid is not, this is a dichotomous division, hence a duality.

 

[Jozaysmith?]

Nonduality (Type 1; Described as a non-dual omni-awareness, and an "ultimate concept" that contains within it multiple dualities such as life and anti-life, good and evil, in and out, and black and white.)

How about the nature

 

[Deagonx]

How about the nature

If it were "nature" 2 it would be listed as transduality

 

[Deagonx]

I have applied the changes.

 

[Antvasima]

Thank you to everybody who helped out here.