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Time to fit the (literal) god of DC comics as well as the others in our new tiering system

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I think that it is better if somebody who can write better justifications for the new statistics adjusts the page instead.
 
@Ultima Reality: Would you happen to have the time to take care of that? You've kind of been running this show. I have a feeling you'd be the most qualified.
 
Ultima Reality said:
Actually, after doing some reading through Multiversity and some parts of Supergods, I do believe that The Writer can remain 0. Mainly because of the fact that from an in-universe perspective where it is the infinite background of nothingness which characters interact with, the Overvoid is still fundamentally defined as a 2-dimensional structure from the perspective of the "Real World", and this is clearly expressed in Supergods, where Morrison repeatedly asserts the notion that the surface of the blank page is its own 2-dimensional expanse inhabited by fictional characters, which we look over from a perpendicular direction they can't truly access. For instance:
Click to expand...

There is also how the Thought Robot still described the Reader as a presence that was immense and beyond his understanding, and that lived in a nameless direction he couldn't perceive or go to, while he himself was in a plane of existence that was basically the highest point before everything crumbled into the Monitor-Mind (even called "The Edge of Art" by Morrison), and where they could actually interact and be engulfed by the Overvoid, as seen with Mandrakk.

The quotes which Kep posted also don't really refer to the "Real World" in the sense of a higher reality as it is defined in Animal Man and Superman Beyond, but to Earth-33 / Earth-Prime, which is just one of the 52 universes contained in the Orrery of Worlds, but that is differentiated from the other ones in the sense that it has no Superheroes and is supposed to represent our world in an in-universe context.

The Overvoid is the paper of the comics in actual real life, as shown by Swamp Thing. If we were to assume the Writer was a 3-D entity in real life, the Paper would also be a 3-D construct. Only the drawings inside it would be comparable to 2-D entities. I explained this in detail in my previous posts. You're taking quotes about the Flaw and applying it to the Overvoid. The Overvoid also views the multiverse as infinitesimal fiction just like the Writer does.

The Thought Robot quote saying the Reader is beyond his comprehension is irrelevant, as, once again, Cosmic Armor Superman is also irrelevant compared to the true form of the Overvoid. If we don't acknowledge this then we will need to downgrade the Overvoid to 1-A.

I still see no evidence the Writer is Tier 0. He fits none of the criteria for transcending High 1-A entities described on the new Tiering System.
 
Just to make this clear, if we're going to suggest that the Thought Robot is relative to the Overvoid in any shape or form (which is what is required to make that "reader" scan imply the Writer to be tier 0 in any way) just because he managed to comprehend what was obviously an infinitesimal manifestation, we'd forcibly need to downgrade the Overvoid to 1-A, and this is ridiculous.
 
Your argument is sound, sure, but we are analyzing and tiering it from an in-universe, fictional perspective, where the surface of the page is itself an infinite background of nothingness which characters can weakly interact with, and be engulfed by, as seen with Perpetua pulling her sons out of pieces of the Overvoid and Mandrakk being engulfed by it until his very concept is erased. If we did otherwise, then we'd just give both the Overvoid and the Writer 10-C and 10-B keys respectively for their "Real World" selves, which obviously ain't something we should do.

Likewise, from said in-universe perspective, Grant Morrison himself defines the surface of the page as a 2-dimensional expanse that is inhabited by the fictional reality of DC Comics, and which we transcend by looking at it from a higher dimension.

It's not irrelevant, because again, the Thought Robot was residing in the highest point of creation where the Overvoid could literally be seen and somewhat "interacted" with. Morrison even describes the Monitor Sphere / the Nil as "The Edge of Art" before everything dissolves into the Monitor-Mind (even Thought itself). The fact that the Reader still resided a higher dimension that was fully unreachable from his perspective even in this domain, coupled with Morrison himself regarding the page's surface as a 2-dimensional space which is transcended by us, pretty clearly shows that The Writer is indeed supposed to stand above the Overvoid.
 
We're analyzing the tiering from an in-universe, fictional perspective, and from said fictional perspective, the Writer is meant to be multiple dudes who can draw stories on a paper in a "higher" reality where other "High 1-A" people who are just as powerful as them can read the stories they write, as you yourself implied. I'm not saying he is literally 3-D, I'm using it as an analogy.

The prospect that characters can interact with the true form of the Overvoid in any way or form is ridiculous, and Morrison himself debunks the notion. All characters shown in the franchise are explicitly said to be bound by dualities, even that of existence and non-existence (in fact, Limbo is directly shown to be still relative to the DC Multiverse instead of the Overvoid). The Overvoid, on the other hand, is completely non-dual, conceptless, formless, without possibility - without literally anything, be it abstract or not. No matter how many 1-A hierarchies you superimpose over it, it'd still amount to absolutely nothing. It's completely ridiculous to suggest for even a single moment that any character in the franchise, especially Superman and Mandrakk, can interact with the void's true form. Even the idea that the Overvoid is afraid of the Flaw is not the whole truth, since the Overvoid doesn't possess the concept of Fear or Wariness. It'd be like claiming Tier-0 Azathoth to be a literal "blind idiot". It's obvious that every example of interaction is done through a manifestation. The true void is the real-life paper, which can never interact with the fictional characters themselves.

And yes, this includes the Thought Robot scans.

And no, Grant Morrison never claims the Overvoid is comparable to a 2-D page being gazed upon by a 3-D reader. He compares the comic story to such a construct. As I've explained multiple times, the comic story is fictional in comparison to the paper, both in-universe, in real life, and in the story's fictional real life.

The paper is 3-D, the story drawn on it 2-D, and the writers of said story are also 3-D.
 
Can we just take this discussion to message walls or dms/discord or something and focus on other, much important things in the original post and thread? Thanks.

I generally feel like neither side here will really ever agree, and it feels like wasting time at this point.
 
Yeah, sure, I'm not too keen on continuing this debate right now anyways.

So, I take it is fine to edit the pages now?
 
@ClassicNESfan

Ultima has administrator privileges. He doesn't need me to unlock them.

@Ultima

That is probably fine, but the disclaimer that I made some adjustments to should be placed in footnotes, yes.
 
I disagree for the multiple reasons I gave above, but whatever.

I'm not really interested on debating this anymore.
 
Basing off the overvoids statements and description it doesnt fit high 1-A requirements as opposed to the likes of actual high 1-A characters
 
the reasoning is moot as being transcdent in DC verse does not equalize high 1-A, unless u prove DC as a whole has infinite hierarchy, which i doubt it exists because they dont have a hierarchy to measure but rather using power scaling to others. regardless the CRT doesnt prove any of that and ultima as he said i pretty much agree with, as the requirement of high 1-A doesnt fit to overvoids own quotations or panels in the comics.
 
This discussion has pretty much concluded. I see no particular problem with Matthew's proposed change. Like I said before, I'm in favor of Tier 0 anyway. But if he's going to make the change, he should make it and this thread should be closed. The topic has been discussed quite thoroughly at this point and we're getting very repetative and pedantic.
 
Ultima Reality said:
You don't actually need an infinite 1-A hierarchy in your verse to be High 1-A. You just need to hold transcendence over the framework in which such entities are defined in the first place, as even in 1-A Hierarchies there would still be a relationship of size / strength between beings that reside in differing levels of it. In the case of a High 1-A entity (normally), there wouldn't actually be a difference between any layer in the hierarchy, as they surpass the very state of being which they share in common.

As far as I see, the Overvoid pretty clearly fits the bill for that, as it pretty explicitly is the ground of being that all fictional entities in DC Comics share in common per Morrison's comments, which simultaneously transcend them as nothingness devoid of limits or definition, and the middle ground between their reality and the Writer.

Even then, if we choose to acknowledge that the Writer transcends any possible recursions of layers of fiction due to their nature as established in Animal Man, then we'd have to apply this to the Overvoid in some shape or form, as Animal Man as the first canonical appearance of the thing and the place where it was first defined as the blank page of the comic, which the Writer uses a vehicle to be able to interact with his writing.
Click to expand...
^
 
ClassicNESfan said:
This discussion has pretty much concluded. I see no particular problem with Matthew's proposed change. Like I said before, I'm in favor of Tier 0 anyway. But if he's going to make the change, he should make it and this thread should be closed. The topic has been discussed quite thoroughly at this point and we're getting very repetative and pedantic.
Click to expand...
This is probably true.
 
Have the relevant pages been updated yet?
 
Ultima updated the Overvoid to High 1-A and The Writer to At Least High 1-A.

Matthew just said that The Writer should be At Least High 1-A, Likely 0. It's something of a compromise, as Kep seems to still disagree with a total 0 rating, but most of the others in this thread have been in favor of 0.
 
That doesn't exactly express the same thing, but all I meant by my comment is that if we're going to make changes, we should make them and close this thread. If we're not going to make changes, we should close the thread. Both Kep and Ultima have done a good job, but this debate has become hyperfocused on details, both seem unwilling to concede, and it appears to have reached a stopping point through compromise.
 
"Likely higher" or "Possibly higher" should be fine.
 
Okay. Tell me here when you are done.
 
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