Alright? Does Xearsay own that interpretation?
The Lightning dazzle came from the Flaw, it symbolizes the Flash in two worlds comic, I.e., the introduction of the Multiverse to DC, hence, "the beginning of all things"
Because... that is not the Overvoid, that is Mandrakk.
Oh, yeah not at all relevant to why your points are right. If you’re going to derail with these useless points then don’t say anything at all.
That’s not the point but sure.
Which I did not deny but the beginning is in reference to upcoming Crisis events as to why that comic mattered when we were first introduced to Jay. So it’s just an introduction to what we’ll be getting later since no too long after this was Crisis on Infinite Earth.
Mandrakk or more so “Dax Novu” was split from the original Monitor when it found Flaw to be everything it was not. The Flaw's whole existence is a hinderous to its perfection which already predated both Dax and his fall into Mandrakk.
Nothing of what I said is a handwave and I'm referring to the story. You being confused about why I don't agree isn't any reason to assert such notions of it being a handwave. Please, do you because a lot of these things are being misinterpreted.
I’m not derailing anything. Also you’re not even conversing with us in a manner that we can clearly understand. Seriously, I genuinely can’t understand what you’re saying. I can tell you’re just trying to hand-wave everything in the thread but how you’re wording your responses is not clear. And if you’re just gonna type paragraph after paragraph of responses calling our arguments “theories” and “useless” mixed in with incoherency and a lack of explanations, this thread won’t go anywhere.
This is the last response to you with something that has nothing to do with the topic. If you don't understand what was being said by me, that's simply on you.
The Overvoid is outside of normal dualism systems but does not transcend them since its relationship with the flaw is a duality representing nothing and everything or something like that. The simple fact that the flaw has tainted the immaculate perfection of the Overvoid proves that the Overvoid can be affected by duality and in turn become a duality.
It isn't, because you are claiming Overvoid existed in DC decades before its official introduction, but wasn't called Overvoid, because something that has a couple shared qualities was mentioned.
I agree with @Deagonx here. Even if it were, the old information is replaced with the newer ones.
Are you gonna actually respond to any of the arguments in the OP? You were the one who made that downgrade or ability removal thread and the OP quite literally is meant to address that thread in its entirety.
Wouldn't a specific non duality type apply for the Overvoid?
We decided otherwise because the Overvoid is clearly affected by duality, so giving it Nonduality in terms of a wiki ability gives it immunity to things it shouldn't.
I don't think so. It's a bit tricky.
No it doesn’t, and if you have proof that the OP is just a regurgitation of what someone else already posted please give us the evidence. Also trying to appeal to some form of absurdity by calling the OP lunacy is not a valid way to go about addressing this thread.
Doesn't that only apply to General and Plural types?
Well, the problem with specific nonduality is its hard to say whether the dualities it is apart from can still affect it. There's no real demonstrated immunity, it's just called nondual. Which is fine for considering it nondual in a non-wiki context, but the abilities we assign have practical implications that aren't really supported by the evidence.
Well, the degree of Non-Duality is there. We just have to describe what specific system it follows and what resistances may or may not apply.
Unfortunately our current system always gives resistances for nonduality:
That was before the total destruction of the Source Wall.
Right, but it demonstrates that DC's idea of nonduality is different from VSBW's
Yeah, but the point was could they have done that without a finite/infinite border helping them? However, it mentions the Multiverse was being slowly consumed.
I haven't read the GL comic to know the context of that, but I'm pretty sure we have examples of the Overvoid being resistant to at least one thing.
The Overvoid, does, indeed transcend the concepts and notions of duality.
That is because that very attribute predated the Overvoid as interduced in FC. And the Overvoid is that very attribute, even if by some fluke Grant Morrison received crippling dementia prior to FC, we as readers can very clearly look at the description "non-dual consciousness" and apply it right back at the Overvoid as the non-dual awareness, your problem isn't in consistency, consistency exists (I.e. it's already called non-dual till this day.)
The problem in the original thread stemmed from the idea that the statements given by the Multiversity Guidebook implied that there was a sort of duality between the Overvoid and The Flaw, it was decided that this was the case, not proven, but rather decided, this of course, going against the plethora of evidence all calling the Overvoid non-dual.
This scan isn't even about the Overvoid, and it doesn't speak to the manner of "transcending duality" that this wiki operates on.
I don't believe Grant had dementia, of course. I think he reused motifs in different stories. Like how he used "Astral" to mean three completely different things in three different storylines.
It was proven, on account of the extremely blatant statements saying it was. The flaw is everything perfection is not, Monitor Mind defined itself in relation to the flaw. Anyone denying that this is a duality is motivated by bias, not reason.
Before we try to prove Type 2, let's just start by proving that it's at the very least Type 1 first. Baby steps.
Yes it is about the Overvoid. The 2 out of 7 scans you’re trying to silence, are all directly talking about Grants view of this non-dual God character, which Grant has already stated is the Overvoid.
That’s not the same thing as what we’re doing and this was broken down to you multiple times. You have no proof Grant was referring to 3 completely different things when he talked about God in these scans, and the OP directly proves that these are the same character being talked about. As in a non-dual God, functioning as the pure ground of being for the cosmology.
We addressed every single one of these things in the OP, something you have not even responded to, or even engaged with besides just insulting the OP and calling it lunacy. Elizio hasn’t engaged with it either, and has instead opted to regurgitating the claims from his previous thread towards Firestorm while completely avoiding the content within the OP. The only thing you’ve done throughout this whole thread is try to silence 2 of 7 scans that we’ve presented supporting the Overvoid being non-dual. Also these accusations of “bias” are inappropriate and one can easily fling the same statements back at you.
Ironically if I recall correctly my understanding is that Xear and NHT don't consider the Source and the Overvoid the same thing lol.
This is all based on the univocality of a word, "non-dual" is not really that up to interpretation or differentiation as you claim it is, matter of fact, it is the attribute given to entities with no differentiation.
No those weren’t what my last comments amounted to, and if you think they’re different characters then prove it, because as of right now we have evidence from the comics Grant wrote and WoG which prove that the same thing is being talked about across these stories. And you’re more than welcome to provide evidence against it.
The notion that nondual has only one possible interpretation is pretty ridiculous given how much philosophical discussion there is on what exactly it means.
As I said, Grant having used these concepts in the past doesn't create continuity or mean its referring to the Overvoid.
Correction; we believe that these scans refer to the Overvoid because the Overvoid is a name given to what these scans describe, therefore you have to prove why it would not.
You are welcome to hold that belief, but certain qualities being used years and years before Overvoid was created do not justify considering those things the Overvoid.
Not in wiki terms, IMO.
Huh??? Isn't the person who makes the positive claim responsible for proving their stance?
We already did prove it’s the same thing being talked about. It’s confirmed through comics and WoG. Deagon disagrees so now he has to disprove what we’re saying, which he’s refusing to do.
Even then, the point is that throughout Final Crisis and Multiversity, the Overvoid was not depicted as transcending duality, so even if you're right, that notion has been abandoned over the years.
