DC Comics: The Light of Creation/The Great Darkness/The Presence (Vertigo) - Clean-up

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I’ll just debunk the remaining notions that Xearsay has.

Claim 1: The form that we see of the Upside Downman is just a shadow of what he is.

• Not evidently true at the slightest. He, himself, is his own being, thus he takes form so that they could comprehend better. There’s no bigger or exterior version of him outside that form, it’s him, just in flesh.

Claim 2: The Darkness we saw in the war of afterlives was a sliver of the Otherkind, of the Upside Downman

• Evidently, true only to the information presented during Justice League Dark. Which Dark Crisis doesn’t adhere to that logic since the Upside Downman is just a puppet to the Great Darkness, the primordial shadow that predates all of Creation, which the Upside Downman doesn’t even predate the Sphere of the Gods.

Claim 3: The true form of the Upside Downman is infinite and limitless in power

• He took a scan out of context and manipulate it to seem as such. Upside Downman even made it clear that “he, at the location(Otherplace) is where he’s the most powerful where his magic is infinite and limitless.” It does not mention anything to do with “form” or some sort of larger being he is. Given the Otherplace is just a voidless realm that was shaped by his belief, and that Swamp Thing even almost beat him in controlling the Otherplace as it’s just an infected space as Upside Downman claims.

Also, here’s some extra reasoning why his takes are very incoherent and are actual invalid interpretations of the stories.

• As I mention earlier, the Upside Downman alongside the others who were enslaved by Pariah were seeking to control the Darkness. If the Upside Downman was the Darkness then why would he want to control his own self?
• As Deagon mentioned earlier, the Upside Downman is just the horror of Hecate manifested into a being. A dark mirror reflection of herself that mocks and mimic her. As she represents the Light Multiverse, the Sphere, and the Collective Unconcious. The Upside Downman represent the Dark Multiverse, the Otherplace, and the Otherkind. The Sphere and beliefs predate Hecate, and Hecate predates the Upside Downman, while the Darkness is literallly older than all of Creation.
• Upside Dowman also draws power from the Source, which the Darkness exist externally of. Since the Source produced the Supercelestial whom took those energy of the Source to make the Multiverse and Hecate was born, and through her the Upside Downman. The Darkness predates all that.
• By Xearsay logic, that would mean the Darkness is just a dark reflection of the Sphere and exist below 5th, 6th, and higher dimensional beings.
• Also, the Darkness exit externally from belief and the Multiverse which shaped everything including the Source thus even Hecate and Upside Downman would be included.

The list goes on. However, I suggest we move from this topic, if he’s going to be stubborn about his points that the stories don’t even support.

 

[Deagonx]

This has gotten drastically off track. @Xearsay if you want to make the case that the UDM is equivalent to the Great Darkness, at this point I have to insist that you just make a different thread entirely. This thread is about how we intend to organize and format the profiles.

@VeryGoofyToddler @Weaver261 This goes for you two as well, please stop the cosmology debate. I'll be removing any further comments about it.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

@VeryGoofyToddler @Weaver261 This goes for you two as well, please stop the cosmology debate. I'll be removing any further comments about it.

Yeah, I suggest we move from that since I know it was veering off topic. However, you were in the discussion as well. So there’s that, but I already put my thoughts about the topic much earlier.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

What have we concluded? I haven't been keeping up.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So, everyone here so far: @Weaver261 @Deagonx @Elizio33 as well as myself have said we could go the route of letting the Light/Overvoid become something of an aspect of the Presence rather than the three being an aspect of the Light.

I vouch for this take:

This.

 

[Elizio33]

What have we concluded? I haven't been keeping up.

I have proposed two solutions to this. The first is to merge The Source and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid profiles into a new profile for The Light of Creation, and to keep The Presence profiles for Vertigo, although there would be mentions of The Presence's name in The Light of Creation profiles (option 1). The second is that we are creating a new key in the Presence profiles related to Crisis Cosmology called “The Creator,” and we are making footnotes on all three profiles explaining the relationship between them and the Light of Creation (option 2).

 

[Elizio33]

Here's what the footnote might look like:

"While ambiguous on some occasions due to the different approaches of various DC writers, several comics have suggested or outright stated that The Source, The Light of Creation, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid were born from the Primordial Darkness, thus making them aspects of The Presence that is clearly stated on numerous occasions as the one who brought light into the Primordial Darkness with the words "Let there be light!", which gave birth to them."

The following is optional but briefly explains the nature of the following entities and their relationships to each other.

The Light of Creation is associated to Heaven, Angels and Creation and is fundamentally a force of nature in contrast to the Great Darkness, locked together in an eternal struggle. Its true appearance has been clarified as the featureless, conscious void beyond time and space, between Creation and the Great Darkness, in which the Multiverse grew; the Overvoid.

The Source is associated with Life, Magic and Creation, and is the great energy of creation, born out of the Primordial Darkness living in, and sustaining all things in existence. All universes, multiverses flow through The Source and is responsible for the birth of the Greater Omniverse through its energy used by The Hands to shapes multiverses within the Void.

The Creator/Presence is the background essence which unite its major aspects; The Light of Creation, The Source, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, as a singular, supreme God devoid of definition who created the Light of Creation and sent the Great Darkness to the Shadowlands.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Here's what the footnote might look like:

"While ambiguous on some occasions due to the different approaches of various DC writers, several comics have suggested or outright stated that The Source, The Light of Creation, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid were born from the Primordial Darkness, thus making them aspects of The Presence that is clearly stated on numerous occasions as the one who brought light into the Primordial Darkness with the words "Let there be light!", which gave birth to them."

The following is optional but briefly explains the nature of the following entities and their relationships to each other.

The Light of Creation is associated to Heaven, Angels and Creation and is fundamentally a force of nature in contrast to the Great Darkness, locked together in an eternal struggle. Its true appearance has been clarified as the featureless, conscious void beyond time and space, between Creation and the Great Darkness, in which the Multiverse grew; the Overvoid.

The Source is associated with Life, Magic and Creation, and is the great energy of creation, born out of the Primordial Darkness living in, and sustaining all things in existence. All universes, multiverses flow through The Source and is responsible for the birth of the Greater Omniverse through its energy used by The Hands to shapes multiverses within the Void.

The Creator/Presence is the background essence which unite its major aspects; The Light of Creation, The Source, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid as a singular, supreme God devoid of definition who created the Light of Creation and sent the Great Darkness to the Shadowlands.

I have nothing but agreements on my behalf. This is a good assessment.

 

[Antvasima]

Elizio33's suggestions here are probably fine to apply, as long as Deagonx agrees.

 

[Elizio33]

I have proposed two solutions to this. The first is to merge The Source and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid profiles into a new profile for The Light of Creation, and to keep The Presence profiles for Vertigo, although there would be mentions of The Presence's name in The Light of Creation profiles (option 1). The second is that we are creating a new key in the Presence profiles related to Crisis Cosmology called “The Creator,” and we are making footnotes on all three profiles explaining the relationship between them and the Light of Creation (option 2).

Here's what the footnote might look like:

"While ambiguous on some occasions due to the different approaches of various DC writers, several comics have suggested or outright stated that The Source, The Light of Creation, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid were born from the Primordial Darkness, thus making them aspects of The Presence that is clearly stated on numerous occasions as the one who brought light into the Primordial Darkness with the words "Let there be light!", which gave birth to them."

The following is optional but briefly explains the nature of the following entities and their relationships to each other.

The Light of Creation is associated to Heaven, Angels and Creation and is fundamentally a force of nature in contrast to the Great Darkness, locked together in an eternal struggle. Its true appearance has been clarified as the featureless, conscious void beyond time and space, between Creation and the Great Darkness, in which the Multiverse grew; the Overvoid.

The Source is associated with Life, Magic and Creation, and is the great energy of creation, born out of the Primordial Darkness living in, and sustaining all things in existence. All universes, multiverses flow through The Source and is responsible for the birth of the Greater Omniverse through its energy used by The Hands to shapes multiverses within the Void.

The Creator/Presence is the background essence which unite its major aspects; The Light of Creation, The Source, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, as a singular, supreme God devoid of definition who created the Light of Creation and sent the Great Darkness to the Shadowlands.

@Deagonx

 

[Deagonx]

That seems fine with me.

 

[Elizio33]

Okay, if everyone agrees with option 2 and the footnote I suggested, then I guess we can add that.

The description i made about the source, light, overvoid and creator should be added into the DC Cosmology blog, in Crisis Cosmology

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Is there going to be another thread tackling God from DeMatteis? Frankly, a revival of the Divine Presence profile I feel is good since in the blog we mention of it already.

 

[Elizio33]

Is there going to be another thread tackling God from DeMatteis? Frankly, a revival of the Divine Presence profile I feel is good since in the blog we mention of it already.

Don't derail the thread please

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Don't derail the thread please

That’s on the topic of the “Presence.”

 

[PrinceStories]

The profile looks pretty good

 

[Elizio33]

Here is a suggestion on how the Creator's attack power should be justified: (The Creator is the background essence that unites The Light of Creation, The Source, and Monitor-Mind The Overvoid as aspects or manifestations of the same supreme God who brought light into the Primordial Darkness with the words: "Let there light!", and sent the Darkness into the Shadowlands)

 

[Antvasima]

Okay, if everyone agrees with option 2 and the footnote I suggested, then I guess we can add that.

The description i made about the source, light, overvoid and creator should be added into the DC Cosmology blog, in Crisis Cosmology

Should I unlock that page for you to edit now, or are you not ready yet?

 

[Elizio33]

Should I unlock that page for you to edit now, or are you not ready yet?

Yes. I'll be ready to edit

 

[Elizio33]

Here's a summary of my edits on The Presence profiles:

Attack Potency: (The Creator is the background essence that unites The Light of Creation, The Source, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, as aspects or manifestations of the same supreme God devoid of definition and who brought light into the Primordial Darkness with the words: "Let there be light!", and sent the Primordial Darkness into the Shadowlands)

Notes: While ambiguous on some occasions due to the different approaches of various DC writers, several comics have suggested or outright stated that The Source, The Light of Creation, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid were born from the Primordial Darkness, thus making them aspects of The Presence that is clearly stated on numerous occasions as the one who brought light into the Primordial Darkness with the words "Let there be light!", which gave birth to them. The Light of Creation is associated with Heaven, Angels and Creation, and is a force of nature in contrast to the Great Darkness. The Source is associated with Life, Magic and Creation, and is an ocean of great creative energy that originates, lives in, and sustains all things in existence. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is associated with The Light of Creation and is the non-dual intelligence and living void with the Multiverse growing inside it.

The note will be on the profiles of The Presence, The Source, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid

Another note I would like to add on Monitor-Mind The Overvoid's profile would be: "Despite Grant Morrison's claims in his interviews that Monitor-Mind was both the canvas of the comic book and synonymous with God, this notion has been modified over the years to become an aspect of God: The Light of Creation."

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. I'll be ready to edit

I have unlocked it for you.

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tell me here when you are done please.

Here's a summary of my edits on The Presence profiles:

Attack Potency: (The Creator is the background essence that unites The Light of Creation, The Source, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, as aspects or manifestations of the same supreme God devoid of definition and who brought light into the Primordial Darkness with the words: "Let there be light!", and sent the Primordial Darkness into the Shadowlands)

Notes: While ambiguous on some occasions due to the different approaches of various DC writers, several comics have suggested or outright stated that The Source, The Light of Creation, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid were born from the Primordial Darkness, thus making them aspects of The Presence that is clearly stated on numerous occasions as the one who brought light into the Primordial Darkness with the words "Let there be light!", which gave birth to them. The Light of Creation is associated with Heaven, Angels and Creation, and is a force of nature in contrast to the Great Darkness. The Source is associated with Life, Magic and Creation, and is an ocean of great creative energy that originates, lives in, and sustains all things in existence. Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is associated with The Light of Creation and is the non-dual intelligence and living void with the Multiverse growing inside it.

The note will be on the profiles of The Presence, The Source, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid

Another note I would like to add on Monitor-Mind The Overvoid's profile would be: "Despite Grant Morrison's claims in his interviews that Monitor-Mind was both the canvas of the comic book and synonymous with God, this notion has been modified over the years to become an aspect of God: The Light of Creation."

Please link here to the pages that you need me to unlock for you.

 

[Elizio33]

I have unlocked it for you.

DC Comics Cosmology

This page is dedicated to outlining the distinctions between DC Comics's different cosmologies. To summarize, the DC Universe has three dominant cosmologies characterized primarily (but not exclusively) by their authors: Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder, James Tynion IV, and Joshua Williamson; J.M...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Tell me here when you are done please.


Please link here to the pages that you need me to unlock for you.

Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Presence, The Source

 

[Antvasima]

I have unlocked them for you. Tell me here when you are done please.

 

[Elizio33]

Do you think we should remove the information that Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is the background of the comic page, since that information is outdated and was changed for the Light of Creation?

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Do you think we should remove the information that Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is the background of the comic page, since that information is outdated and was changed for the Light of Creation?

Yes. Instead of the background of the comic page. More so the background of “Creation.”

 

[Antvasima]

Do you think we should remove the information that Monitor-Mind The Overvoid is the background of the comic page, since that information is outdated and was changed for the Light of Creation?

That seems fine to me at least.

 

[Elizio33]

I made a sandbox for the Light of Creation

Elizio33/Sandbox11

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Elizio33]

I still have Monitor-Mind, The Overvoid and DC Cosmology to edit after I'll be done.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I made a sandbox for the Light of Creation

Elizio33/Sandbox11

vsbattles.fandom.com

I’m a little confused is the Light profile going to merge with the Overvoid? Given that, prior to Monitor-Mind being a name itself, Light was there perfect before(Overvoid) and after(Monitor-Mind, the Overvoid). Since Crisis Cosmology is merged, I just say merge the profile.

 

[Elizio33]

I’m a little confused is the Light profile going to merge with the Overvoid? Given that, prior to Monitor-Mind being a name itself, Light was there perfect before(Overvoid) and after(Monitor-Mind, the Overvoid). Since Crisis Cosmology is merged, I just say merge the profile.

Maybe. But that would be throwing out most of the information on Monitor-Mind in favor of Light of Creation, since most of it is now outdated. Even the name "Monitor-Mind The Overvoid" is now questionable. I would say we create a new profile for The Light of Creation and just say they are the same, like we did before with The Source and Monitor-Mind before my edits.

 

[Elizio33]

I have already explained on the footnotes that the Light of Creation is more associated with Heaven, Angels and Creation and the narrative convey that the Light and Monitor-Mind are the same entity.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Maybe. But that would be throwing out most of the information on Monitor-Mind in favor of Light of Creation, since most of it is now outdated. Even the name "Monitor-Mind The Overvoid" is now questionable. I would say we create a new profile for The Light of Creation and just say they are the same, like we did before with The Source and Monitor-Mind before my edits.

I simply think that we keep the name “Monitor Mind, the Overvoid” for the profile. In the list of powers and abilities use what we know of both and make a footnote on why they’re the same and why the profile are merged.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The Sandbox is good, but we’re treating the two as the same. Thus, there shouldn’t really be a need for two profile. I could recommend we split some keys. For the Overvoid, the immaculate perfection state, we can call just “Light.” While for the Monitor-Mind, the Overvoid we can refer to as the “Light of Creation.” The explanation being on the Overvoid profile and if there’s any confusion we just link the Light/Darkness category in the Cosmology blog on the profile.

 

[Elizio33]

The Sandbox is good, but we’re treating the two as the same. Thus, there shouldn’t really be a need for two profile. I could recommend we split some keys. For the Overvoid, the immaculate perfection state, we can call just “Light.” While for the Monitor-Mind, the Overvoid we can refer to as the “Light of Creation.” The explanation being on the Overvoid profile and if there’s any confusion we just link the Light/Darkness category in the Cosmology blog on the profile.

I'm fine with that

 

[Elizio33]

I'm done editing the three profiles. Only DC Cosmology remains to edit. Tell me what do you think.

 

[Antvasima]

I am fine with your conclusions here, but have not checked through your edits to see if there are any grammar or spelling problems yet.

Also, should Monitor-Mind the Overvoid's page be renamed or not?

 

[Elizio33]

I am fine with your conclusions here, but have not checked through your edits to see if there are any grammar or spelling problems yet.

Also, should Monitor-Mind the Overvoid's page be renamed or not?

I'm hesitant but I think "Monitor-Mind The Overvoid" should stay because even though the name "Monitor-Mind" is no longer used, people already know it that way while "The Light of Creation" is a lesser known concept brought back a few years ago that we know very little about. The footnotes would suffice and I have edited out the obsolete information.

Perhaps updating the summary information to say that in an alternate narrative, Monitor-Mind, more properly known as The Light of Creation, is an aspect of The Presence that formed out of the Great Darkness and whose interaction with it triggered the eternal push and pull of Light and Darkness that culminated in a series of events that destroyed and rebooted the DC Multiverse multiple times until a truce between the two forces was reached.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Perhaps updating the summary information to say that in an alternate narrative, Monitor-Mind, more properly known as The Light of Creation, is an aspect of The Presence that formed out of the Great Darkness and whose interaction with it triggered the eternal push and pull of Light and Darkness that culminated in a series of events that destroyed and rebooted the DC Multiverse multiple times until a truce between the two forces was reached.

We could also remove from wrong description of the Overvoid. Seeing as it’s consider a “Void of absolute nothingness” and that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore. Plus, the Monitor in question in the scans about sprawling narratives, I feel was referring to Dax Novu and not the Overvoid.

Before:

Monitor-Mind the Overvoid is the void of absolute nothingness that encompasses creation, standing outside of its deepest reaches, beyond all dual concepts and the stories which form around them, being the crumbling point in which all things cease to be, and the background of all stories and ideas within DC Comics itself.

After:

Monitor-Mind the Overvoid is the void of light outside Creation, that encompasses all the sprawling possibilities and manifolds, from which it is the background for all stories and narratives. The finality beyond the Multiverse where forms and ideas surrender and lose their meaning in a seemingly endless light that preceded and is the source of Creation.

We can also change this part or just remove it entirely since it’s not what the story mentions(remove the bolded parts)

Dax Novu became infected with them and collapsed the defenses of the Monitor-Mind in the process, dividing itself into Mandrakk the Dark Monitor and The Thought Robot. After this event, the Overvoid too, became seemingly plagued by narratives and speculations regarding the Flaw and the events unfolding within and around it, condensing countless narratives and stories out of itself, giving origin to the race of The Monitors.

 

[Elizio33]

We could also remove from wrong description of the Overvoid. Seeing as it’s consider a “Void of absolute nothingness” and that doesn’t seem o be the case anymore. Plus, the Monitor in question in the scans about sprawling narratives, I feel was referring to Dax Novu and not the Overvoid.

Before:

After:

We can also change this part or just remove it entirely since it’s not what the story mentions(remove the bolded parts)

I agree.

 

[Elizio33]

Source/Overvoid/Light

Although associated with different parts of the DC cosmology, these various entities are aspects or manifestations of The Presence, born out of the Primordial Darkness. The narrative has repeatedly shown that these three overarching deities share an equal nature and stature, all giving rise to, encompassing and sustaining the Greater Omniverse, and existing as completely transcendent to the Divine Continuum and, by extension, beyond all space and time.

Primordial Darkness/Great Darkness

In the prelude to Dark Crisis on Infinite Earths, Joshua Williamson reintroduced an old concept, that of the Great Darkness introduced in Allen Moore's Swamp Thing series, and combined it with the Overvoid from Grant Morrison's Multiversity using the origins of creation related in Marv Wolfman's Crisis on Infinite Earths. Joshua Williamson specifically refers to key passages from these stories and adjusted them to what Grant Morrison and Scott Snyder have architected over the years for DC continuity.

Those who have read the issues 49 and 50 of Moore's Swamp Thing series will remember the Great Darkness as the opposite of God's light and existed before the first light came into existence. Translating this into the modern cosmology, the Great Darkness existed before the Overvoid which Joshua Williamson seemingly associated with the Light of Creation or God's light, brought into existence within the Primordial Darkness when God said: "Let there be light!"

The Great Darkness precedes, encompasses, and surpasses Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source, The Light of Creation, and is tied to the Shadowlands, the place where God sent the Primordial Darkness when he brought forth the light, and to which individuals like Alan Scott and Obsidian have ties. The Great Darkness has also various aspects and avatars like Darkseid, Empty Hand, Upside-Down Man, Trigon, and Lucifer, but it is neither an evil nor a nihilistic force. It just sits in the black for eternity, watching everything as a flicker of light waiting to be extinguished by itself.

The Creator/Presence/God

Despite the ambiguity made by the different approaches of various authors, most of them adhered to the notion of a supreme, underlying God, standing utterly devoid of definition, and manifesting itself in three distinct yet equal figures: Monitor-Mind The Overvoid, The Source The Light of Creation. One God, all three viewpoints being aspects or manifestations of the same whole, standing as transcendental to the Divine Continuum as these entities are, but is superior to the Great Darkness and The Light of Creation, as he brought light into the Primordial Darkness and "forcibly" sent the Darkness into the Shadowlands.