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Time to fit the (literal) god of DC comics as well as the others in our new tiering system

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I'm talking about realms not characters because a bunch of characters can be 1-A and one being stronger than the other that's fine. It doesn't really show "degrees of transcendence" that 1-A encompasses.

So in DC one fictional transcendence i.e the Void viewing the DC multiverse as fiction is High 1-A but it's different in another verse. Why is this the case here? It can be one step in Umineko's hierarchy but it's not about that, it's about how it's defined on the site. So if we see a fictional transcendence in DC and another in Umineko why should they not mean the same thing.
 
Because verses treat transcendence different.

Umnieko views "X views Y as fiction" as just another step in a hiearchy and is treated as not exceeding the 1-A scale. Featherine treats the top witches as fiction. But she is viewed as exceeding the 1-A scale to the point she can't fit in it

DC views the overvoid as exceeding the 1-A scale so much to such a point it can't fit in 1-A.
 
For example. Even if TOAA viewed Oblivion as fiction. He wasn't shown or properly explained of how far greater in degree of transcendence he is. So he is just a 1-A. That is when we can't use "X views Y as fiction" for those characters
 
You don't actually need an infinite 1-A hierarchy in your verse to be High 1-A. You just need to hold transcendence over the framework in which such entities are defined in the first place, as even in 1-A Hierarchies there would still be a relationship of size / strength between beings that reside in differing levels of it. In the case of a High 1-A entity (normally), there wouldn't actually be a difference between any layer in the hierarchy, as they surpass the very state of being which they share in common.

As far as I see, the Overvoid pretty clearly fits the bill for that, as it pretty explicitly is the ground of being that all fictional entities in DC Comics share in common per Morrison's comments, which simultaneously transcend them as nothingness devoid of limits or definition, and the middle ground between their reality and the Writer.

Even then, if we choose to acknowledge that the Writer transcends any possible recursions of layers of fiction due to their nature as established in Animal Man, then we'd have to apply this to the Overvoid in some shape or form, as Animal Man as the first canonical appearance of the thing and the place where it was first defined as the blank page of the comic, which the Writer uses a vehicle to be able to interact with his writing.
 
Umineko can have that hierarchy. The problem is defining the "steps". X views Y as fiction. I define it as one fictional transcendence. That is a part of their hierarchy but it doesn't change the quality of the transcendence. The only case where this changes is if the "transcendence" is actually displayed as much higher than it actually implies. That's basically what you're saying is the case for DC. But where is the 1-A hierarchy that it's viewing as fiction you guys haven't even decided yet.
 
@Ultima, you seem to be pretty well versed in all the terminology. Could you write out the disclaimer Ant was asking for? I tried writing out myself earlier, but I ended up deleting it because I wasn't sure I was phrasing it well.
 
So can every one agree that the Overvoid is High 1-A and the writer is 0?

If that's the case, all we need to do is make a note that is clear enough and best explains why the Overvoid fits the tier and how others don't
 
Well I agree that Overvoid should be high 1-A but has the Writer even being legit been put to rest?
 
The Writer doesn't seem transcend the Overvoid to such an extent. He might just barely do, in fact.

High 1-A Writer is fine, in my view.
 
Also, if treating the Overvoid as the white page itself, it's obviously on the same level of existence as the Writer.

Also, just a note since I am seeing some people claim the Writer views the Overvoid as fictional - every scan shown so far to point to the Writer seeing the Overvoid as fiction is about the Writer seeing the multiverse as fiction, which is obviously completely different, since the multiverse is also fictional and infinitesimal to the Overvoid.

This is no different than Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth, except on a higher-scale (since Azzy and Yoggy are gonna get hit with the downgrade hammer)
 
Yog and Azzy being lower than The Writer and the Overvoid seems dumb considering the hierarchies. I'm guessing people are going to be trying to downgrade the hierarchies.
 
Yog and Azathoth are gonna get downgraded to "1-A, possibly 0" so technically they're going to be both stronger and weaker than the Writer/The Overvoid (assuming both end up being High 1-A)
 
Just to note that the definition of 0 with the new Tiering System is:

  • Characters who demonstrate an equivalence to, or can create/destroy/affect, transcendental abstract levels of existence which conceptually stand superior to even High 1-A levels. Being "omnipotent" or any similar reasoning [2] is not nearly enough to reach this tier; characters at this level must transcend High 1-A characters as High 1-A characters would transcend 1-A ones. This tier has no true endpoint, and can be extended unto any higher level, spiraling infinitely upwards.
It's quite ridiculous to suggest that a writer is conceptually superior to the paper they need to draw the comics in, especially given the quotes I posted above.
 
I have no concrete opinion about whether The Writer should be tier 0 or High 1-A, but am uneasy with downgrading Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth.
 
Is this better?

"Do not use the tiering of the overvoid or the writer to try to make other characters "who view others as fiction" as High 1-A. The Writer and the Overvoid have been shown to fit the requirements of High 1-A besides them viewing DC as fiction. As such, trying to upgrade other characters to this tier without proper proof they fit the requirements will just be assumed as Reality - Fiction Interaction and just a step higher in 1-A"
 
It is more coherent, but I am not sure if it explains well. It would probably be best if Ultima tries to improve the text.
 
Actually, after doing some reading through Multiversity and some parts of Supergods, I do believe that The Writer can remain 0. Mainly because of the fact that from an in-universe perspective where it is the infinite background of nothingness which characters interact with, the Overvoid is still fundamentally defined as a 2-dimensional structure from the perspective of the "Real World", and this is clearly expressed in Supergods, where Morrison repeatedly asserts the notion that the surface of the blank page is its own 2-dimensional expanse inhabited by fictional characters, which we look over from a perpendicular direction they can't truly access. For instance:


To find out what higher dimensions might look like, all we have to do is study the relationship between our 3-D world and the 2-D comics. A 4-D creature could look "down" on us through our walls, our clothes, even our skeletons. Our world would be a Cubist X-ray, and perhaps even our thoughts might be laid bare to their gaze.

As comics readers gazing down from a higher dimension perpendicular to the page surface, we can actually peer inside characters' thoughts with balloons or captions that provide running commentary. We can also control time in a comics universe. We can stop on page 12 and look back to page 5 to check a story point we missed. The characters themselves continue to act out their own dramas in the same linear sequence, oblivious to our shifting perspective. They can go back in time only with the help of supermachines, like the Flash's cosmic treadmill, but we can look at 1938 Superman next to 1999 Superman without colliding the two stories anywhere but in our heads.
There is also how the Thought Robot still described the Reader as a presence that was immense and beyond his understanding, and that lived in a nameless direction he couldn't perceive or go to, while he himself was in a plane of existence that was basically the highest point before everything crumbled into the Monitor-Mind (even called "The Edge of Art" by Morrison), and where they could actually interact and be engulfed by the Overvoid, as seen with Mandrakk.

The quotes which Kep posted also don't really refer to the "Real World" in the sense of a higher reality as it is defined in Animal Man and Superman Beyond, but to Earth-33 / Earth-Prime, which is just one of the 52 universes contained in the Orrery of Worlds, but that is differentiated from the other ones in the sense that it has no Superheroes and is supposed to represent our world in an in-universe context.
 
Not that I necessarily disagree with the conclusion, but I don't think we can use "Supergods" as direct evidence/justification for DC comics since it's not published by them and its a study on comic book history and masked hero's as a whole, mainly the big 2 ofc, even though it is written by Morrison.
 
Well, Supergods can serve as supporting evidence to understand what Grant Morrison is talking about and what his ultimate vision is, similarly to how we can use the interview I linked above as evidence that yes, Animal Man wasn't just something random he threw in the air and was actually the foundation for everything he explored in his decades of comicbooks.
 
I don't mean to be pushy, but can somebody make that disclaimer Ant has been asking for? I think that's pretty much our last major order of business, but I do not feel confident in my own abilities on that front.
 
ClassicNESfan said:
I don't mean to be pushy, but can somebody make that disclaimer Ant has been asking for? I think that's pretty much our last major order of business, but I do not feel confident in my own abilities on that front.
Click to expand...
I would obviously prefer if this is not ignored, yes.
 
"Do not attempt to scale other characters which scale to a cosmology of Reality-Fiction Differences to High 1-A or 0 in the front that they perceive lesser characters as akin to fictional constructs or something similarly non-threatening. The Monitor-Mind and the Writer are rated as such due to additional context as to their nature that qualifies them for such high tiers in the first place; as such, perceiving 1-A characters as fiction should only be considered a higher degree of Outerverse level, unless there are further circumstances suggesting that a Reality-Fiction Difference can be equated to higher tiers, in which case they should be carefully evaluated."
 
Thank you for the help. I tried to make the flow of the text somewhat easier to read:

"Do not attempt to scale other characters that use a cosmology with Reality-Fiction Differences to High 1-A or 0 based on that they perceive lesser characters as fictional constructs or something similarly insignificant. The Monitor-Mind and the Writer are rated as such due to additional context regarding their natures that qualifies them for these tiers in the first place. As such, perceiving 1-A characters as fiction should only be considered a higher degree of Outerverse level, unless there are further circumstances suggesting that a reality-fiction difference can be equated to higher tiers, in which case they should be carefully evaluated."
 
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