DC Comics: The Light of Creation/The Great Darkness/The Presence (Vertigo) - Clean-up

[Elizio33]

The Presence:

• Crisis Cosmology - the Creator
• Vertigo Cosmology - Yahweh
• J.M. DeMatteis - God

That seem right? The reason why I say God is because that’s more Universal since every story he changes the title of the Presence. In Fate it was the Smile, in Spectre it was the Divine Presence, Phantom Stranger it was the Dog, etc…

Yeah.

 

[Asterotheology]

Another point. I think it would be more fair to call God as "The Creator" instead of "The Presence" for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology. I know DeMatteis said that the Creator is an aspect of God, but that is his take on the matter.

I could work on a profile for The Creator in my sandbox if you wish. Here are two of his notable feats:

1. Created and brought the Light of Creation into the Great Darkness as a manifestation of his true form.

2. Banished the Great Darkness to the Shadowlands after he brought the light.

Why would you even mention DeMatteis saying the Creator? It's not like his works are part of the Crisis Cosmology in the first place.

The Presence:

• Crisis Cosmology - the Creator
• Vertigo Cosmology - Yahweh
• J.M. DeMatteis - God

That seem right? The reason why I say God is because that’s more Universal since every story he changes the title of the Presence. In Fate it was the Smile, in Spectre it was the Divine Presence, Phantom Stranger it was the Dog, etc…

In Phantom Stranger, issue 15 blatantly states that it's the Divine Presence and even the Presence before that issue. To be frank, if you read (not you specifically) Supergirl: Wings, Legends of the DC Universe and his Spectre run. It's always Creator, Presence or God for DeMatteis. Only reason the Smile wasn't called the Presence back then was because no writer in any comic used Presence for God, as far as my knowledge goes. Don't think that happened until the 90s started. In the early 80s, DeMatties used to call God the Sacred Duality or Sea of Light where the Oneness lies.

Either way, I'm not too overly concerned about the naming scheme. Whatever is agreed upon, I'm fine with.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

In Phantom Stranger, issue 15 blatantly states that it's the Divine Presence and even the Presence before that issue. To be frank, if you read (not you specifically) Supergirl: Wings, Legends of the DC Universe and his Spectre run. It's always Creator, Presence or God for DeMatteis. Only reason the Smile wasn't called the Presence back then was because no writer in any comic used Presence for God, as far as my knowledge goes. Don't think that happened until the 90s started. In the early 80s, DeMatties used to call God the Sacred Duality or Sea of Light where the Oneness lies.

Of course, though the Dog part was simply because I ask DeMatteis. He told me that it was Didio idea since God in reverse is Dog.

Regardless, the term the Presence was not really coined heavily until the Lucifer series. So yeah, before that it was really known as the Voice and for DeMatteis case “Oneness, God, Love, etc…”

 

[Xearsay]

In essence, they are. Unlike the Ghost Zone, the proximity, location, and usage of the Void is pretty much the same with the Overvoid. That can’t be denied.

I disagree. Nothing indicates that Void Lucifer went into is outside the entire map or anything, and honestly, Lucifer being able to fly through it and do all of what he did there already disqualifies them from being the same. Their similarities start and end at being visually presented as white voids. However, there’s multiple voids in the cosmology that appear the same way like the various limbos, the Collective Unconscious, etc. Even the Godsphere has a white void in the background of all the various Godly realms, and the Lords of Order could literally move it at will. Are you gonna say that’s the Overvoid too and that the Lords of Order are Overvoid level? I don’t think so.

The Light was never claimed to be the Presence, nor the full entity. However, you can nitpick it not being called the Presence despite the fact “God” in many of these stories refers to the Presence. This story was no different.

The Spectre straight up calls him God and his master, and the Darkness met this God in Heaven. It’s 100% the Presence. I don’t even know how you can say it’s not based off what we see in the issue.

Also my reason for that God in Swamp Thing #75, not being the Presence isn’t just because he's not explicitly called the Presence, it’s also because the Presence is directly shown to be something completely transcended by that God in the exact same issue, meaning that God is not The Presence. The only way it can be connected to the Presence is if we have evidence that the Presence is a personal avatar within creation of this of this non-dual God(which would still make the Presence something lesser btw). However there is no evidence for this, so as far as things go, all we know is that there’s a God like the Presence that is a dual being and a part of the concept of Light, and then there’s a God that is beyond duality and thus transcends all dual beings like the Presence. Where this non-dual God just somehow magically becomes the Presence like you’re claiming, despite the same issue showing that this God transcends the Presence is no where to be found.

The Sphere certainly holds Heaven which he predated and created. With an aspect of him living in the Primum Mobile, but the truer being exists much beyond the Map.

A lot of the Gods in Sphere of Gods predate the creation of their own realms. All of them have their own myths where they created their heavens and earth. So the Presence having one doesn’t make him unique. However, there’s definitely no truer Presence beyond the map and there’s really no evidence for that.

So you have no problem randomly making some baseless assumption that the Light matched an “aspect” of the Great Darkness yet you claim this wasn’t an aspect of God given the Presence in Heaven is nothing more than an aspect and the #75 of Swamp Thing makes this distinction better known.

I didn’t make an assumption for that claim. I was referencing Justice League Dark which directly calls that Darkness only a piece that broke free of the Otherkind who are the full darkness. And I’m sure you’ve seen that scan, but if you want me to post it I can. Also did you just say the Presence in heaven is an aspect of… the Presence??? I really hope I’m not reading that correctly.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I disagree. Nothing indicates that Void Lucifer went into is outside the entire map or anything, and honestly, Lucifer being able to fly through it is already disqualifies them from being the same. Their similarities start and end at being visually presented as white voids. However, there’s multiple voids in the cosmology that appear the same way like the various limbos, the Collective Unconscious, etc. Even the Godsphere has a white void in the background of all the various Godly realms, and the Lords of Order could literally move it at will. Are you gonna say that’s the Overvoid too and that the Lords of Order are Overvoid level? I don’t think so.

Since when was it disclosed that beings can’t move through the Overvoid? It’s quite evident that Lucifer told us that this Void is beyond Creation several times in the story and holds the immensity of all Creations that teem with life, not unlike the Overvoid.

Plus, navigating the Void was something Lucifer trained to do given that he can resist its effect of perception by training to view Eternity. So, moving through the Void hardly scale the being in question to it, so the Lords of Order wouldn’t scale to the Overvoid. So, I don’t know what you’re trying to convey, unless you mean to say the Overvoid is 0 and cannot be visited, which the Crisis Cosmology blog rejects such notions as absurd.

The Spectre straight up calls him God and his master, and the Darkness met this hand in Heaven. It’s 100% the Presence. I don’t even know how you can say it’s not based off what we see in the issue.

Also, in Volume 2 it was stated the Spectre had he used his power right could have stopped it. Also, calling it “master” doesn’t disprove it since Spectre unless you’re counting the Oversoul has never truly seen the true nature of the Presence. As I already said an aspect of God still is God so Spectre addressing it as “master” isn’t surprising nor out of the norm.

Also my reason for that God in Swamp Thing #75, not being the Presence isn’t just because he's not explicitly called the Presence, it’s also because the Presence is directly shown to be something completely transcended by that God in the exact same issue, meaning that God is not The Presence. The only way it can be connected to the Presence is if we have evidence that the Presence is a personal avatar within creation of this of this non-dual God(which would still make the Presence something lesser btw). However there is no evidence for this, so as far as things go, all we know is that there’s a God like the Presence that is a dual being and a part of the concept of Light, and then there’s a God that is beyond duality and thus transcends all dual beings like the Presence. Where this non-dual God just somehow magically becomes the Presence like you’re claiming, despite the same issue showing that this God transcends the Presence is no where to be found.

The Presence was never mentioned so it couldn’t haven been the “Light” any more than you claiming it wasn’t the non-dual God. Given Swamp Thing publication didn’t ever mention the Presence until much later. So you claiming the Light is lesser than God would just be equivalent of saying the Presence created the “Light” so why would something he create scale to him.

As for your point on the “Presence” being “an avatar” has never been fleshed out. Unless, you take the name seriously to say that the presence of God is just an aspect which the Lucifer series acknowledges. However, it never differentiates when the term the “Presence” is coined to be any lesser when talking about the full fountainhead. It can be used in both cases and after that would just be arguing for semantics.

A lot of the Gods in Sphere of Gods predate the creation of their own realms. All of them have their own myths where they created their heavens and earth. So the Presence having one doesn’t make him unique. However, there’s definitely no truer Presence beyond the map and there’s really no evidence for that.

There is? Death Metal literally states that the Source is the Presence that sits in the center of the Greater Omniverse. Where his energy formed the life force of the Supercelestial and other species in the Void. The Presence even in JLA said to “manifest” in the Void. The Creator entity that it forms through by taking shape isn’t the full entity, that’s just an emanation it takes to talk to his creations.

I didn’t make an assumption for that claim. I was referencing Justice League Dark which directly calls that Darkness only a piece of the Darkness that broke free. And I’m sure you’ve seen that scan, but if you want me to post it I can. Also did you just say the Presence in heaven is an aspect of… the Presence??? I really hope I’m not reading that correctly.

Justice League Incarnate states otherwise saying it was the Darkness, not some random piece. Since publication favors Incarnate and Deadly Green it supercedes the canon of Justice League Dark. Plus, Upside Downman was said to be progenitor of the Otherkind yet he was merely a puppet to the Great Darkness. The entire story arc revolves around the Darkness being Upside Downman as Circe mentioned. However, that holds no value in Dark Frontier.

Also, yes, the Presence takes avatar and form and isn’t even tangible within Heaven much less whatever he is beyond the scope of Creation when he decides to leave or just go silent.

 

[Xearsay]

Since when was it disclosed that beings can’t move through the Overvoid? It’s quite evident that Lucifer told us that this Void is beyond Creation several times in the story and holds the immensity of all Creations that teem with life, not unlike the Overvoid.

Plus, navigating the Void was something Lucifer trained to do given that he can resist its effect of perception by training to view Eternity. So, moving through the Void hardly scale the being in question to it, so the Lords of Order wouldn’t scale to the Overvoid. So, I don’t know what you’re trying to convey, unless you mean to say the Overvoid is 0 and cannot be visited, which the Crisis Cosmology blog rejects such notions as absurd.

I wouldn’t consider movement something that happens in a state where you’re supposed to be resolved to unity, hence why Mandrakk was getting engulfed down to his very idea.

You’re taking creation as used in the context of the Vertigo Lucifer series as everything in the Overvoid, when there’s no reason or room to even make such an interpretation. Also I said the Lords of Order moved the Void, as in when one of the realms in the Godsphere was being wiped by the Void, the Lords of Order literally stopped the Void so it couldn’t dissolve the realm.

Also, in Volume 2 it was stated the Spectre had he used his power right could have stopped it. Also, calling it “master” doesn’t disprove it since Spectre unless you’re counting the Oversoul has never truly seen the true nature of the Presence. As I already said an aspect of God still is God so Spectre addressing it as “master” isn’t surprising nor out of the norm.

I highly doubt it since that portion of the darkness was shown to be an equal to the Presence. So unless the Spectre accesses the full power of the Presence, he should be outclassed.

If the Spectre does not know the “true nature” or identity of his own God, then we’d have no reason to trust him on anything related to the Presence, including his own relationship with the Presence which defines his entire character. And I think you’d agree that this would be a pretty absurd thing to do. The only way around this entity not being the Presence, is if you have actual proof that the entity is truly said somewhere to be an aspect of the Presence with lesser power. If you can’t substantiate that then you’re just entertaining headcanon because nothing in the story states that it’s an aspect.

The Presence was never mentioned so it couldn’t haven been the “Light” any more than you claiming it wasn’t the non-dual God.

The issue depicts a reference to Swamp Thing #50 where the Darkness and the Light(who was identified as the Presence in story) both matched one another. So actually yes I can say the Presence is the light and is not the non-dual God character shown at the end of the issue, because I actually have the evidence to do so.

As for your point on the “Presence” being “an avatar” has never been fleshed out.

Wasn’t my argument. The Spectre is literally an aspect of the Presence so it doesn’t even make sense for me to argue that the Presence has no aspects. My point was that in the context of that Swamp Thing #50, there’s nothing indicating that the being in Heaven the Spectre is calling God and his master, is not and the Presence. And until you substantiate such a thing there’s no reason for it be believed.

There is? Death Metal literally states that the Source is the Presence that sits in the center of the Greater Omniverse. Where his energy formed the life force of the Supercelestial and other species in the Void. The Presence even in JLA said to “manifest” in the Void. The Creator entity that it forms through by taking shape isn’t the full entity, that’s just an emanation it takes to talk to his creations.

Death Metal makes one statement that’s wildly contradictory if taken literally. A lot of entities in DC have been identified as the Source due to whatever connections they have on the cosmic scale. And the Gods in the sphere of gods have creation myths that are all based off the one true story of the Source/Overvoid, which is why the supreme creators in those myths are essentially stand ins for The Source. However, they are still merely myths born of the Collective Unconscious that seek reinterpret what actually happened, on a much lesser cosmic scale.

Also I don’t think the Presence has what we could call “emanations.” I think he has extended aspects like the Spectre, the Radiant, etc, and has personal bodies/forms that he uses to presents himself to other characters. However, I don’t think when he enters any of his personal bodies or forms(like the little dog for example, or the body made out of pure light) that he’s lesser in power or anything. Although this really doesn’t matter because before the darkness and the Presence locked hands, their bodies were more like two big waves energy approaching one another.

Justice League Incarnate states otherwise saying it was the Darkness, not some random piece. Since publication favors Incarnate and Deadly Green it supercedes the canon of Justice League Dark. Plus, Upside Downman was said to be progenitor of the Otherkind yet he was merely a puppet to the Great Darkness. The entire story arc revolves around the Darkness being Upside Downman as Circe mentioned. However, that holds no value in Dark Frontier.

The Justice League Incarnate origin is quite literally a made up delusional from Pariah.

Saying the Upside Down Man is a puppet of the Great Darkness is a pretty inaccurate description considering he quite literally is the true Great Darkness. The twisted and disfigured body that we see walking upside down is a form that he uses to give others something to interact with and comprehend. However, that doesn’t mean his power is lesser while using a body. And we know for a fact that the Upside Down Man is the true and main body representing the Great Darkness because he was stated to be the full extent of it. So the contradiction you’re suggesting exist between JLD and Dark Crisis actually don’t exist at all. A puppet would be more like Lucifer who in his own run was compared to a very small piece of the Darkness which broke free from the Otherplace, and is a mere form that the Upside Down Man can shape shift into at will.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I wouldn’t consider movement something that happens in a state where you’re supposed to be resolved to unity, hence why Mandrakk was getting engulfed down to his very idea.

Even if this were true for that time, it certainly isn’t now. Given that this Cosmology section includes other authors and they don’t use the logic of “resolve/dissolve into unity.” In any given case, it would just elude that Mandrakk doesn’t have the durability for it since other beings can exist in it. Plus, that notion is very outdated ie the Unexpected(Mandrakk return).

You’re taking creation as used in the context of the Vertigo Lucifer series as everything in the Overvoid, when there’s no reason or room to even make such an interpretation. Also I said the Lords of Order moved the Void, as in when one of the realms in the Godsphere was being wiped by the Void, the Lords of Order literally stopped the Void so it couldn’t dissolve the realm.

There’s more room for interpretation to suggest the Void is outside the whole of Creation since the narration in several occasion support this. Given that the Presence jurisdiction ends at Lucifer gates.

As for your “Godsphere Void” take. Lucifer in his stories is much above Lords of Order and he’s seen as an insignificant gnat in the endless, infinite Void outside Creation

I highly doubt it since that portion of the darkness was shown to be an equal to the Presence. So unless the Spectre accesses the full power of the Presence, he should be outclassed.

If the Spectre does not know the “true nature” or identity of his own God, then we’d have no reason to trust him on anything related to the Presence, including his own relationship with the Presence which defines his entire character. And I think you’d agree that this would be a pretty absurd interpretation. The only way around this entity not being the Presence, is if you have actual proof that the entity is truly said somewhere to be an aspect of the Presence with lesser power. If you can’t substantiate that then you’re just entertaining headcanon because nothing in the story states that it’s an aspect.

No, there’s many time when the Presence or one of his creation literally claims that he is beyond shape/form. They interact with what they can of their creator, that doesn’t discount anything especially if the “aspect” literally tells them of his truer self. I don’t know how that’s hard to understand.

The issue depicts a reference to Swamp Thing #50 where the Darkness and the Light who was identified as the Presence in that story, both matched one another. So actually yes I can say the Presence is the light and is not the non-dual God character shown at the end of the issue like you’re claiming.

The story never said “the Presence” so that much is just your headcanon. Given that the Word literally claims that he and the Light were born from the Voice, an aspect of God(also known as the Presence since the term wasn’t used until Lucifer).

Wasn’t my argument. The Spectre is literally an aspect of the Presence so it doesn’t even make sense for me to argue that the Presence has no aspects. My point was that in the context of that Swamp Thing #50, there’s nothing indicating that the being in Heaven the Spectre is calling God and his master, is not and the Presence. And until you substantiate such a thing there’s no reason for it be believed.

They very much is because even in lesser form, God is God. That much is simple since you can refer to things in different level of manifest by the same name.

Death Metal makes one statement that’s wildly contradictory if taken literally. A lot of entities in DC have been identified as the Source due to whatever connections they have on the cosmic scale. And the Gods in the sphere of gods have creation myths that are all based off the one true story involving the Source/Overvoid, which is why the supreme creators in those myths are essentially stand ins for The Source. However, they are still merely myths born of the Collective Unconscious that seek reinterpret what actually happened, on a much lesser cosmic scale.

Collective Unconscious is literally born of the Connective Energy that radiates from the Presence. Even so much so that Snyder claims the “Presence exist outside the Collective Unconscious” much less the stories claiming that CU is nothing but one of the fundamental force created from Connective Energy that connects all story and life.

Also I don’t think the Presence has what we could call “emanations.” I think he has extended aspects like the Spectre, the Radiant, etc, and has personal bodies/forms that he uses to presents himself to other characters. However, I don’t think when he enters any of his personal bodies or forms(like the little dog for example, or the body made out of pure light) that he’s lesser in power or anything. Although this really doesn’t matter because before the darkness and the Presence locked hands, their bodies were more like two big waves energy approaching one another.

You’re very insistent that when the Presence brought the Light, he just somehow became Light that became Creation and Life which isn’t at all supported by the story. The Presence can still exist independently of Light, as he did for timeless amount of time in the beginning less beginning.

The Justice League Incarnate origin is quite literally a made up delusional from Pariah.

The Crack was what gave the person telling the story knowledge. There’s really no evident reason to discount the story which literally highlights all the story prior. The only exception may be if the Darkness has any intention or what Darkseid true role is.

Saying the Upside Down Man is a puppet of the Great Darkness is a pretty inaccurate description considering he quite literally is the true Great Darkness. The twisted and disfigured body that we see walking upside down is a form that he uses to give others something to interact with and comprehend. However, that doesn’t mean his power is lesser while using a body. And we know for a fact that the Upside Down Man is the true and main body representing the Great Darkness because he was stated to be the full extent of it. So the contradiction you’re suggesting exist between JLD and Dark Crisis actually doesn’t exist at all. A puppet would be more like Lucifer who was compared to the very small piece of the Darkness which broke free from the Otherplace, and is a mere form that the Upside Down Man can shape shift into at will.

Pariah siphoning just a fraction of the Darkness true power > Upside Downman as well as all those who were willing to control any part of the Darkness to conquer the Omniverse.

 

[Weaver261]

Saying the Upside Down Man is a puppet of the Great Darkness is a pretty inaccurate description considering he quite literally is the true Great Darkness.

I am amazed that this point that I can't understand like how did you even reach that conclusion. In JLD 2018, it's stated clearly that UDM is the opposite of Hecate who is a being of pure magic. UDM is literally shown as one of the aspects of The Great Darkness.

the Gods in the sphere of gods have creation myths that are all based off the one true story of the Source/Overvoid, which is why the supreme creators in those myths are essentially stand ins for The Source.

I think you're talking about that one spectre comic where spectre travels some places and asks about the creator gods. Spectre even said them "You know nothing" iirc because all of their stories are referring to the Presence. Spectre went into the source after Zeus said the origin of everything might be the source. Only to find out a flaming hand that shows him the power of the god.
Death Metal clearly stated the source and the presence are interchangable. The writer also confirmed that. The writer even goes one step furthur confirming that the overvoid the same void that is shown at the end of Lucifer 2000. The Light, The Hand, The Voice, The Word everything is The Presence's aspects that is used in the multiverse. I would advice you to re-read the comics again before making these kind of assumptions. Try reading cosmology blog post on this wiki, the explanation is quite good. Otherwise this won't get anywhere.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I am amazed that this point that I can't understand like how did you even reach that conclusion. In JLD 2018, it's stated clearly that UDM is the opposite of Hecate who is a being of pure magic. UDM is literally shown as one of the aspects of The Great Darkness.

The funny thing is he was created by Hecate horror of herself. So, it’s pretty funny to believe Hecate scales to the Darkness when she doesn’t even scale to Perpetua and the Hands. More unrealistically is ignoring the official canon that the Darkness fully sits above all things, yet “Upside Dowman” is an expection somehow, as if he’s even near Sixth Dimensional beings or even the Hands, much less the Darkness.

To be fair, Upside Downman was mentioned as the Darkness during JLD, but Infinite Frontier publication does supersedes it since it came out later and is the current information on where the hierarchy stands. I don’t know why this isn’t hard to see.

 

[Xearsay]

Even if this were true for that time, it certainly isn’t now. Given that this Cosmology section includes other authors and they don’t use the logic of “resolve/dissolve into unity.” In any given case, it would just elude that Mandrakk doesn’t have the durability for it since other beings can exist in it. Plus, that notion is very outdated ie the Unexpected(Mandrakk return).

I’d disagree, I think it’s just problem with you other people’s poor interpretations of events. Although, considering the current Flash Comics have continued the narrative set up by Morrison about how the cosmology is emanated from beyond the Source Wall/(aka The Source/Overvoid emanates the cosmology), I think your statement is definitively wrong.

There’s more room for interpretation to suggest the Void is outside the whole of Creation since the narration in several occasion support this. Given that the Presence jurisdiction ends at Lucifer gates.

As for your “Godsphere Void” take. Lucifer in his stories is much above Lords of Order and he’s seen as an insignificant gnat in the endless, infinite Void outside Creation

The Presence’s jurisdiction extending to everything in the Overvoid is not something you’ve proven in this conversation, so if that’s your reason then you’re gonna need to find a better one. Also, the Void in Vertigo was shown to be beyond the silver city and the dreaming… that’s it. Doesn’t sound like the entire map to me. It doesn’t even sound like the entire Godsphere actually.

Aah, you see the part where you make the random assumption that Lucifer is more powerful than the Lords of Order doesn’t actually work here because during this story the Lords of Order were accessing a higher level of magic from the Upside Down Man which was not only said to be capable of destroying the entire Godsphere, but also stated by very credible characters(Swamp Thing for example) to be capable of marching down Heaven and Hell and burning them both to the ground. So actually Lucifer would not be more powerful than them, since you know, he failed to not only destroy heaven but also got packed up by the Pax Dei. Lucifer would have to be stronger than the Presence to be stronger than the Lords of Order here lol.

No, there’s many time when the Presence or one of his creation literally claims that he is beyond shape/form. They interact with what they can of their creator, that doesn’t discount anything especially if the “aspect” literally tells them of his truer self. I don’t know how that’s hard to understand.

There’s plenty of characters in the Godsphere that don’t have a true shape or form, so I don’t see why this makes the Presence anything special. Either way, the part of your comment that I quoted here doesn’t even make an attempt to substantiate that the being the Spectre is calling his God and his master is an aspect of the Presence. So are you just conceding on that point or??

The story never said “the Presence” so that much is just your headcanon. Given that the Word literally claims that he and the Light were born from the Voice, an aspect of God(also known as the Presence since the term wasn’t used until Lucifer).

It doesn’t need to directly state “The Presence.” The Spectre calling this entity God and his master is good enough to identify that this is the Presence, because that’s the only entity the Spectre would identify in such a way.

They very much is because even in lesser form, God is God. That much is simple since you can refer to things in different level of manifest by the same name.

You don’t have proof that this is the case in this story, and actually I really don’t know any case where a being other than the Presence is addressed by the Spectre as his master and his God. All you’ve been doing so far is just pumping out long replies while refusing to put anything that can actually substantiate the claim you’re making that the Presence as seen in Swamp Thing #50 is an aspect and not the real thing.

Collective Unconscious is literally born of the Connective Energy that radiates from the Presence. Even so much so that Snyder claims the “Presence exist outside the Collective Unconscious” much less the stories claiming that CU is nothing but one of the fundamental force created from Connective Energy that connects all story and life.

I don’t really care what Snyder says, especially if it’s contradictory. As we know from decades of comics, the Godsphere is a manifestation of the Collective Unconscious, and all the Gods worshiped by various religious figures are also of the Collective Unconscious. The Presence falls under this category as being of the Godsphere and worshipped by humanity, so he is 100% a byproduct of the Collective Unconscious/Hecate. And him being not only matched by a mere aspect of the Darkness which is only a small portion of the Upside Down Man/full Darkness, but also noted in JLD to have locked the gates of Heaven because of the Upside Down Mans invasion of reality, is a nod to the fact that the Presence is something way lesser than what you’re claiming.

You’re very insistent that when the Presence brought the Light, he just somehow became Light that became Creation and Life which isn’t at all supported by the story. The Presence can still exist independently of Light, as he did for timeless amount of time in the beginning less beginning.

The whole reason the Presence is even called the Light is because it’s signifying that he is literally the Light you’re seeing. It’s the same way the title “the Presence” is signifying that you are in the presence of God. The Voice is signifying that you are hearing the literal voice of God. The Light is signifying when you’re seeing the light shining from God. Him saying “let there be light” is because he’s illuminating the material world with his essence(light). This is all just simply different ways to address one entity based off how he’s interacting with you. And that’s why the Light in this story is addressed as God multiple times by different characters including the Spectre and is even addressed as the Spectres master.

The Crack was what gave the person telling the story knowledge. There’s really no evident reason to discount the story which literally highlights all the story prior. The only exception may be if the Darkness has any intention or what Darkseid true role is.

Yeah and what do you think the Crack leads to? The Crack is the crack in the Multiverse that leads to the supposed “Great Darkness” that will consume reality, however the plot twist that happens after Deadly Green is that this Great Darkness was never actually there. As stated in Deadly Green and basically all the other issues in the event that would come after, the Great Darkness was never attacking reality. The Darkness they believed at the beginning was attacking their reality was just Pariah who was noted to be so insane that he believed there was something other than himself coming to reduce reality to nothing. So Maya getting her insight from the Crack just means that she was perceiving the insanity and delusion created by Pariah that wasn’t actually legit.

Pariah siphoning just a fraction of the Darkness true power > Upside Downman as well as all those who were willing to control any part of the Darkness to conquer the Omniverse.

“Pariah siphoning just a fraction of the Upside Down Man > The Upside Down Man.” This is basically what you just said.

 

[Deagonx]

“Pariah siphoning just a fraction of the Upside Down Man > The Upside Down Man.” This is basically what you just said.

This would only be true if we -- for some reason -- decided to prioritize Justice League Dark over any other information. Williamson in JLI plainly presents UDM as one of several avatars/puppets/vassals/servants etc. of the Great Darkness. There's no room for an interpretation that UDM represents the full power of the Great Darkness. It's entirely incompatible with anything but JLD, and even then it wasn't on solid ground.

 

[Xearsay]

I think you're talking about that one spectre comic where spectre travels some places and asks about the creator gods. Spectre even said them "You know nothing" iirc because all of their stories are referring to the Presence. Spectre went into the source after Zeus said the origin of everything might be the source. Only to find out a flaming hand that shows him the power of the god.

Yes I am talking about that comic and you’re completely misinterpreting it. The whole point is that the Spectre’s perception of his God as the one true God and this monolithic entity is completely wrong, hence why all the Gods in every godly realm he traveled to disagreed and contested him on that belief. Some of them didn’t even know who the Presence was and called him out for arrogantly assuming that the creation myths they believed in, were lesser than his creation myth involving the Presence.

So the moral of the story is that all these many religious belief systems and creation myths, including the Spectre’s, are just all attempts to reinterpret the actual origin of things, so there’s no need to act like one is superior over the other. The Spectre doesn’t understand this and that’s why he’s the one who is learning that lesson in this story.

 

[Weaver261]

Shadowlands is the place god sent the darkness
When creator said let there be light, the darkness retreated to shadowlands
UDM is Shown as one of the avatars of the great darkness
Bro got literally chained and brain washed by Pariah who has only a portion of corrupted TGD's power
You can say Pariah is not interacting with real great darkness. Then how you gonna explain UDM being a part of it? That will make him more lesser if he is someone who can be control by some piece of corrupt power from TGD

 

[Xearsay]

This would only be true if we -- for some reason -- decided to prioritize Justice League Dark over any other information. Williamson in JLI plainly presents UDM as one of several avatars/puppets/vassals/servants etc. of the Great Darkness. There's no room for an interpretation that UDM represents the full power of the Great Darkness. It's entirely incompatible with anything but JLD, and even then it wasn't on solid ground.

His body was already noted as just merely a form he takes to present himself in JLD, so what you’re arguing here is not a contradiction.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

I’d disagree, I think it’s just problem with you other people’s poor interpretations of events. Although, considering the current Flash Comics have continued the narrative set up by Morrison about how the cosmology is emanated from beyond the Source Wall/(aka The Source/Overvoid emanates the cosmology), I think your statement is definitively wrong.

The Flash story I would argue is trying something much new and not following in Morrison footstep. Since the Overvoid didn’t even emanate Creation, and the whole gist is to use Wally to kill Time.

The Presence’s jurisdiction extending to everything in the Overvoid is not something you’ve proven in this conversation, so if that’s your reason then you’re gonna need to find a better one. Also, the Void in Vertigo was shown to be beyond the silver city and the dreaming… that’s it. Doesn’t sound like the entire map to me. It doesn’t even sound like the entire Godsphere actually.

I said quite the opposite since I said that his jurisdiction ends at the gates. Hence why his Creation which was portrayed as all Creation ends in the Void outside that whole structure.

Creation contains everything hence why Mike Carey always said it’s an all-encompassing totality and the Void is outside all structure including every Creation. I don’t know why you’re playing ignorant there’s literally nothing beyond the infinite and eternal Void that sits outside Creation.

Aah, you see the part where you make the random assumption that Lucifer is more powerful than the Lords of Order doesn’t actually work here because during this story the Lords of Order were accessing a higher level of magic from the Upside Down Man which was not only said to be capable of destroying the entire Godsphere, but also stated by very credible characters(Swamp Thing for example) to be capable of marching down Heaven and Hell and burning them both to the ground. So actually Lucifer would not be more powerful than them, since you know, he failed to not only destroy heaven but also got packed up by the Pax Dei. Lucifer would have to be stronger than the Presence to be stronger than the Lords of Order here lol.

The Lucifer solo series both by Watters and Carey literally states that he’s above both. While JLD never even mention such claims to say otherwise.

Plus, the Presence is multitude ahead of the Lords of Order and given even a comic that features Nabu claims that Michael sits above then by a large margin. Your province notion that Angels are limited to the Sphere is quite atrocious and very much just a headcanon.

There’s plenty of characters in the Godsphere that don’t have a true shape or form, so I don’t see why this makes the Presence anything special. Either way, the part of your comment that I quoted here doesn’t even make an attempt to substantiate that the being the Spectre is calling his God and his master is an aspect of the Presence. So are you just conceding on that point or??

The Presence is limited for the Sphere, for starters. However, how the Presence interacts with his creations is through avatars and forms that much is easy to tell.

Also, don’t randomly assume I’m conceding on a point that you seem to rather easily miss. As I said an avatar representing something is that entity in particular, so Spectre addressing an avatar of the Presence as “God” isn’t in the realm of impossibility. After all, the entire Lucifer series is just the Presence taking form and shapes or his creations mind would go insane seeing his true form.

It doesn’t need to directly state “The Presence.” The Spectre calling this entity God and his master is good enough to identify that this is the Presence, because that’s the only entity the Spectre would identify in such a way.


You don’t have proof that this is the case in this story, and actually I really don’t know any case where a being other than the Presence is addressed by the Spectre as his master and his God. All you’ve been doing so far is just pumping out long replies while refusing to put anything that can actually substantiate the claim you’re making that the Presence as seen in Swamp Thing #50 is an aspect and not the real thing.

As I’ve said before and your bliss of ignorance. The Presence doesn’t have to be fully there in his true form for someone to call him “God.” Lucifer and Michael themselves never even see his true form and is hiding under shape. Even Elaine with the Demiurgic Power couldn’t comprehend his true form and all of his Creation serve the Voice during Swamp Thing which is an aspect of God, which near the end of the series they try replacing that aspect.

I don’t really care what Snyder says, especially if it’s contradictory. As we know from decades of comics, the Godsphere is a manifestation of the Collective Unconscious, and all the Gods worshiped by various religious figures are also of the Collective Unconscious. The Presence falls under this category as being of the Godsphere and worshipped by humanity, so he is 100% a byproduct of the Collective Unconscious/Hecate. And him being not only matched by a mere aspect of the Darkness which is only a small portion of the Upside Down Man/full Darkness, but also noted in JLD to have locked the gates of Heaven because of the Upside Down Mans invasion of reality, is a nod to the fact that the Presence is something way lesser than what you’re claiming.

Snyder literally works with Tynion IV and both of them did not contradict anything. Especially given Death Metal was heavily them working to produce something big especially given Tynion is more so in charge of writing the Cosmology bit.

Also, the Presence predates and his connective energy literally created the CU which did not exist until the Multiverse raw material was shaped by Perpetua who was given the Totality which contains the energy of the CU and the other force. You’re ignoring what the stories tell us in favor of forming a random headcanon that filters only the information you’re trying to represent.

The whole reason the Presence is even called the Light is because it’s signifying that he is literally the Light you’re seeing. It’s the same way the title “the Presence” is signifying that you are in the presence of God. The Voice is signifying that you are hearing the literal voice of God. The Light is signifying when you’re seeing the light shining from God. Him saying “let there be light” is because he’s illuminating the material world with his essence(light). This is all just simply different ways to address one entity based off how he’s interacting with you. And that’s why the Light in this story is addressed as God multiple times by different characters including the Spectre and is even addressed as the Spectres master.

The Presence wasn’t ever called the “Light” so that much again is just a headcanon. Publication of the term the Presence to denote God wasn’t even used in Swamp Thing.

However, the Word did mention the Voice created he and the Light thus why would God scale below his own creation?

Also your claim that his essence is light is very untrue. Light in general was something entirely absent when he was contemplating on Creation making. The whole meaning between those dual concept was explained as a dogma by Lucifer in Morningstar option.

Yeah and what do you think the Crack leads to? The Crack is the crack in the Multiverse that leads to the supposed “Great Darkness” that will consume reality, however the plot twist that happens after Deadly Green is that this Great Darkness was never actually there. As stated in Deadly Green and basically all the other issues in the event that would come after, the Great Darkness was never attacking reality. The Darkness they believed at the beginning was attacking their reality was just Pariah who was noted to be so insane that he believed there was something other than himself coming to reduce reality to nothing. So Maya getting her insight from the Crack just means that she was perceiving the insanity and delusion created by Pariah that wasn’t actually legit.

Are you serious? The entire thing was that the Great Darkness was there at least up until the pact it made with the Light. He was very much there, the goal of the Darkness was misunderstood but, regardless, it was there.

Pariah siphoning of the Great Darkness didn’t precede Swamp Thing or COIE. So unless Pariah was messing with the Crack then obviously he didn’t do anything to Maya.

“Pariah siphoning just a fraction of the Upside Down Man > The Upside Down Man.” This is basically what you just said.

No.

 

[ProfectusInfinity]

Could we use this statement as justification for Nigh-Omniscient or likely Nigh-Omniscient Light of Creation? The Voice is stated to be all-knowing. Source: Justice League v4 045 (2020)

 

[Deagonx]

His body was already noted as just merely a form he takes to present himself in JLD, so what you’re arguing here is not a contradiction.

The contradiction is in taking the stance that UDM represents the full power of the GD despite the fact that the JLI storyline routinely demonstrates that these various vassals can be defeated without any adverse effect to the GD nor do they necessarily wield its full power. More importantly, the origin story of the UDM -- being an equal and opposite to the Sphere of the Gods/Collective Unconscious of the Multiverse is entirely incompatible with the origin of the Great Darkness in Williamson's stories where it predates even the Overvoid -- let alone the Multiverse/Dark Multiverse.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The contradiction is in taking the stance that UDM represents the full power of the GD despite the fact that the JLI storyline routinely demonstrates that these various vassals can be defeated without any adverse effect to the GD nor do they necessarily wield its full power. More importantly, the origin story of the UDM -- being an equal and opposite to the Sphere of the Gods/Collective Unconscious of the Multiverse is entirely incompatible with the origin of the Great Darkness in Williamson's stories where it predates even the Overvoid -- let alone the Multiverse/Dark Multiverse.

Let’s not forget UDM was shaped from Hecate belief and horror of herself. Given that Hecate isn’t even eternal, meaning the Darkness conception in JLD kind runs weird.

 

[Elizio33]

I don't even know why the relationship between the Upside Down Man and the Great Darkness is still debatable when the more recent Dark Crisis storyline has clearly established that the Upside Down Man was an aspect of the Great Darkness and that the former was controlled by Pariah who wielded a fraction of the Great Darkness' power. The claim that the Great Darkness was a fraction of the Upside Down Man's power is outdated and it was later said in the same story (JLD) that the Upside Down Man drew his power from The Source and was formed through Hecate's fears.

 

[Elizio33]

Here's my take. The Presence, aka Creator, brought light into the Darkness with the words: "Let there be light!" From there, The Light of Creation was born, so as The Source. As i just said above, The Light of Creation is a manifestation of God's true form in contrast to the Darkness and is tied to Heaven and Creation with its true appearance being the Overvoid. The Source would be the great energy of creation, born since the very beginning, coalesced together to make a form, living in and sustaining all things in the Greater Omniverse. The Source is essentially the primordial and ultimate essence of Life.

Both would be equal in nature and stature.

Anyway, does anyone agree with this approach?

Option 1: Merge The Source, Monitor-Mind and Overvoid profiles into a new profile called The Light of Creation and leave The Presence for Vertigo. (The Presence will be mentioned in the new profiles for The Light of Creation though)

Option 2: We are creating a new key in The Presence profiles that would be related to the Crisis Cosmology called "The Creator". We are making footnotes on all three profiles explaining their relationship to the Light of Creation based on what I personally understood above.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Anyway, does anyone agree with this approach?

Option 1: Merge the profiles of The Source, Monitor-Mind The Overvoid into a new profiles called The Light of Creation and leave The Presence for Vertigo. (The Presence will be mentioned in the new profiles though)

Option 2: We are creating a new key in The Presence profiles that would be related to the Crisis Cosmology called "The Creator". We are making footnotes on all three profiles explaining their relationship to the Light of Creation based on what I personally understood above.

Honestly, you could mesh the two. You can mention the relation between the Presence with the Light as the “Creator.” While mentioning that he’s still connected with the Source and Overvoid via his aspect as well.

Something like creator of the Light/Overvoid which begets the canvas of Creation. His creative energy for life and magic from the Source.

 

[Elizio33]

Honestly, you could mesh the two. You can mention the relation between the Presence with the Light as the “Creator.” While mentioning that he’s still connected with the Source and Overvoid via his aspect as well.

Something like creator of the Light/Overvoid which begets the canvas of Creation. His creative energy for life and magic from the Source.

This is basically option 2.

 

[Elizio33]

Could we use this statement as justification for Nigh-Omniscient or likely Nigh-Omniscient Light of Creation? The Voice is stated to be all-knowing. Source: Justice League v4 045 (2020)

Good idea

 

[Xearsay]

The contradiction is in taking the stance that UDM represents the full power of the GD despite the fact that the JLI storyline routinely demonstrates that these various vassals can be defeated without any adverse effect to the GD nor do they necessarily wield its full power. More importantly, the origin story of the UDM -- being an equal and opposite to the Sphere of the Gods/Collective Unconscious of the Multiverse is entirely incompatible with the origin of the Great Darkness in Williamson's stories where it predates even the Overvoid -- let alone the Multiverse/Dark Multiverse.

The Upside Down Man never fought anyone during Justice League Incarnate so I don’t really even know what you’re talking about. If you have evidence that he fought someone during JLI and was defeated, then you can post it.

I don’t think the origin story given by Maya can be something interpreted as 100% legit for reasons I’m sure that you’ve already read, since I talked about it earlier in this thread. So it’s a contradiction in your interpretation but not mine. Which means you’re gonna have to explain why your interpretation which creates contradictions between DC events and stories, is somehow better than my interpretation which doesn’t do that at all.

Also the Upside Down Mans first and majority of appearances telling us essentially everything we know about him comes from Justice League Dark. So to say all of that is just incompatible and so we should just ignore it, would leave us with practically no information about the character. And if you have to go that far to make your interpretation work, then maybe you should reevaluate your interpretation.

 

[Deagonx]

The Upside Down Man never fought anyone during Justice League Incarnate so I don’t really even know what you’re talking about. If you have evidence that he fought someone during JLI and was defeated, then you can post it.

Nothing in the comment you quoted made a claim like this. If you'd like to address what I said instead of this strawman, feel free.

I don’t think the origin story given by Maya can be something interpreted as 100% legit for reasons I’m sure that you’ve already read, since I talked about it earlier in this thread. So it’s a contradiction in your interpretation but not mine. Which means you’re gonna have to explain why your interpretation of story which creates contradictions between DC events and stories, is somehow better than my interpretation which doesn’t do that at all.

You could get rid of the origin story entirely and it would still be a moot point, as the GD is demonstrated to be the mastermind behind villains who outclass UDM entirely like Anti-Monitor.

Any version of DC canon that envisions Upside Down Man as the ultimate big bad instead of him just being one of many cosmic villains in the verse that GD is ultimately described as being above, isn't compatible with Williamson's stories whatsoever.

 

[Xearsay]

Nothing in the comment you quoted made a claim like this. If you'd like to address what I said instead of this strawman, feel free.

You tried to counter my argument about the Upside Down Man representing the full power of the Great Darkness by saying that in the JLI storyline various of the Great Darkness’s subordinates(vassals) were shown to be defeated without any harmful affects on the Great Darkness. And since you weren’t being very specific, I assumed that you are including the Upside Down Man amongst those subordinates that were shown getting defeated in JLI, so that’s why I asked for evidence. If you’re not saying that the Upside Down Man is amongst those subordinates then what’s the relevancy of your argument? A lesser agent of the Great Darkness being able to be defeated without affecting the full Darkness doesn’t tell us anything about the Upside Down Man unless you’re implying that he’s a part of said subordinates.

You could get rid of the origin story entirely and it would still be a moot point, as the GD is demonstrated to be the mastermind behind villains who outclass UDM entirely like Anti-Monitor.

Any version of DC canon that envisions Upside Down Man as the ultimate big bad instead of him just being one of many cosmic villains in the verse that GD is ultimately described as being above, isn't compatible with Williamson's stories whatsoever.

Can I see the evidence for that? If you’re evidence for Anti Monitor being under the Great Darkness is coming from the origin story given by Maya, then your argument doesn’t make sense because that would come from the very origin story that you just claimed we can get rid of.

Just because you say it’s incompatible doesn’t mean it is. Also, do you think Justice League Dark is taking place in a different canon from Dark Crisis or something? I’m actually curious.

 

[Deagonx]

You tried to counter my argument about the Upside Down Man representing the full power of the Great Darkness by saying that in the JLI storyline various of the Great Darkness’s subordinates(vassals) were shown to be defeated without any harmful affects on the Great Darkness. And since you weren’t being very specific, I assumed that you are including the Upside Down Man amongst those subordinates that were shown getting defeated in JLI, so that’s why I asked for evidence. If you’re not saying that the Upside Down Man is amongst those subordinates then what’s the relevancy of your argument? A lesser agent of the Great Darkness being able to be defeated without affecting the full Darkness doesn’t tell us anything about the Upside Down Man unless you’re implying that he’s a part of said subordinates.

UDM is shown to be among the subordinates, he didn't have a prominent role in the storyline (as he is not generally considered a major figure in the cosmology). However, there is nothing to suggest he is exceptional among the many subordinates of the Great Darkness.

Can I see the evidence for that? If you’re evidence for Anti Monitor being under the Great Darkness is coming from the origin story given by Maya, then your argument doesn’t make sense because that would come from the very origin story that you just claimed we can get rid of.

Just because you say it’s incompatible doesn’t mean it is. Also, do you think Justice League Dark is taking place in a different canon from Dark Crisis or something? I’m actually curious.

If your argument ultimately comes down to taking the stance that the Great Darkness -- even in Williamson's works -- is everything that UDM is said to be in JLD, we're no longer even really having a debate about UDM per se, you're taking the stance that essentially everything we're told about the Great Darkness by Williamson is flatly wrong. That the ultimate form of the Great Darkness is, ultimately, within DC's dark multiverse and is a reflection of the Sphere of the Gods.

That stance doesn't really warrant serious discussion, frankly.

 

[Xearsay]

UDM is shown to be among the subordinates, he didn't have a prominent role in the storyline (as he is not generally considered a major figure in the cosmology). However, there is nothing to suggest he is exceptional among the many subordinates of the Great Darkness.

I don’t think the stories suggesting that at all. We know from JLD that the visual appearance/shape of the Upside Down Man is just a form of his true self that is infinite. So taking this into account, if your justification that the Great Darkness as we see it in JLD is a subordinate to the one we see in Dark Crisis because the Upside Down Man can shape himself from formlessness to form out of thin air, then that wouldn’t make sense because JLD already acknowledges that the Great Darkness is truly infinite but takes visual appearances/shapes so it can be comprehend.

If your argument ultimately comes down to taking the stance that the Great Darkness -- even in Williamson's works -- is everything that UDM is said to be in JLD, we're no longer even really having a debate about UDM per se, you're taking the stance that essentially everything we're told about the Great Darkness by Williamson is flatly wrong. That the ultimate form of the Great Darkness is, ultimately, within DC's dark multiverse and is a reflection of the Sphere of the Gods.

That stance doesn't really warrant serious discussion, frankly.

No, I’m taking the stance that there’s no contradiction between the Great Darkness having an upside down monster as a visual form in Dark Crisis because the Great Darkness worked the exact same way in JLD which came before it. If anything that scene is acknowledging the very information said by the Upside Down Man during JLD.

If you’re so confident in your stance being right then you should be able to counter my arguments, and not just opt into making dismissive comments like saying my stance doesn’t deserve a serious discussion.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

The scan says “here, I am limitless. Infinite” is not talking about his “form.” It’s referring to where he’s most powerful, but to each of their own I guess.

 

[Deagonx]

We know from JLD that the visual appearance/shape of the Upside Down Man is just a form of his true self that is infinite. So taking this into account, if your justification that the Great Darkness as we see it in JLD is a subordinate to the one we see in Dark Crisis because the Upside Down Man can shape himself from formlessness to form out of thin air, then that wouldn’t make sense because JLD already acknowledges that the Great Darkness is truly infinite but takes visual appearances/shapes so it can be comprehend.

Again, there is absolutely nothing in Williamson's stories to suggest the UDM is a particularly significant avatar or vassal for the Great Darkness.

No, I’m taking the stance that there’s no contradiction between the Great Darkness having an upside down monster as a visual form in Dark Crisis because the Great Darkness worked the exact same way in JLD which came before it. If anything that scene is acknowledging the very information said by the Upside Down Man during JLD.

This doesn't address the issues in terms of UDM being definitively below multiple other avatars of the Great Darkness as well as UDM's origin story being explicitly below the scope of the Great Darkness in the storyline. Those problems can't be resolved.

If you’re so confident in your stance being right then you should be able to counter my arguments,

I have, which is why I am dismissing your arguments. You are talking around the glaring issues in your approach, instead of actually engaging with them. I am not going to pretend an argument is more credible than it is simply because you avoid talking about the contradictions your stance imposes. Nothing in JLI or the later stories by Williamson addressing the Great Darkness are compatible with the idea that the Great Darkness is a product of the dark multiverse, nor an equal/opposite to Hecate who is herself the embodiment of a force contained within the DC Multiverse.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

It’s not bad but I was never a fan of merging the three for obvious reasons. Firstly, the “Presence” rarely ever mention by name especially how he’s treated within different canons:

Grant Morrison work on JLA confirms he’s more akin to just a creator entity rather than anything. Even if we discount JLA, we still could consider Final Crisis: Revelations where he is mentioned to be the creator of Heaven and Earth ie Creation ex nihilo and which the Lucifer series also attested with the same claim that God created everything from the Void, so that would be more akin to Creation ex deo which doesn’t even line up. He created Creation out of “himself?” The Overvoid was meant to be the “God” of his Cosmology with the Source being akin to it. This bars another problem.

In Snyder Cosmology, the Void isn’t a sentient cosmic mind with the Multiverse growing. Rather, just an endless expanse of space that teems with life. Apparently, you can “rent from it” ie Perpetua, be beyond it ie the Banks of Creation, and a hierarchy existing in it ie Unseen Council. So, it’s just a “corrosive” force of nature beyond material Creation, nothing like Morrison idea of a supreme Void that can be called God from which Creation is nothing but infinitesimal to it. This comes another problem.

Snyder treated the Overvoid as just some regular Void nothing special to it, and Williamson makes it more complicated. Apparently, the Overvoid isn’t eternal or the first very thing, apparently the Darkness precedes it and the non-dual Void apparently is “Light” akin to “Darkness.” Which makes no sense in the context of Morrison. This also makes no sense since the “Source” came from the Dark. According to Snyder, the Source was supreme and eternal. That the Presence was a personal manifestation, more so an emanation of it, that nothing exists outside the Source, in any way. Thorne literally claims the Source produce the Darkness despite the story kind depicting a different story, and Snyder claim can’t be correct that the Source is “supreme” if it’s matched.

Then you got the obvious caveat: the Presence. The Presence has always taken aspect and manifestation. In JSA, apparently the Darkness treated into the Shadowlands, the same “primordial shadow” the exact description of the Darkness when the Presence said “let there be light” as Incarnate apparently told us the Light grew from being imperceptible in the Darkness as it’s mentioned the Light was created, not naturally formed. Now, you may question “when did the comics mention this?” Obviously, JSA did but let’s pretend it didn’t. I talked to Imaginary Axis(who follows me on Twitter and we had some chat). Apparently, he never asked and it’s never been directly stated in the comics but the Hands were created by the Source, as something don't need a direct explanation. Which comes to my next point, in the DC Greatest Events, it was claimed that the Presence is the fountainhead that exists beyond the Source. In Swamp Thing #75 God exist beyond all opposite and created the Light and Darkness as nothing more than just dualistic concepts in the Marcoverse as there are things beyond the two, even more fundamental, and that same God exist beyond all those levels where he is one with the Void, eternal and living in quintessenal perfection that gave birth to all things.

So, I never liked the “theory” because Morrison never claimed that “God” was even the Presence. His story never supported it, he was giving analogies of different names to the Overvoid, which in several interview he call God which can be interchangeable with “Void” and not the Presence.

Snyder denotes the Overvoid as just some space, not sentient, not God, not anything but just lacking material. Williamson apparently believes that the Darkness is the eternal Void, and the Overvoid is nothing but the hue of perfect light. The Presence has never been mentioned directly other than a Doomsday Special which they call him “God.” Yeah, so there’s so much mess between interpretation.

Like @Elizio33 mentioned earlier. I see the Presence as sitting at the top, at least in his most purest form. With the Source being the source of creative potential that divinity and embodies all life. The Overvoid as just an endless space from which the Multiverses comes about and could be used interchangeably with newer terms like Greater Omniverse or the “Infinite.” The Darkness being the eternal background from which all things comes from. I, personally, think they should all just have different profile with different abilities based on what was seen, not some fan theories claiming they’re the same thing because the stories don’t line with it.

Plus, ask yourself this, how many stories was told of the Presence creating the “Light.” The Light that became Creation and is embodied Creation. That logically makes no sense and that doesn’t sit right with me and the amount of indirect and direct statement that has been made that “God made the light.” DC editorial literally claim they mainly treat the Presence as would the Judeo-Christian view and those literally put him as maker of the “Light.” Yeah, he can shine as bright as the concept of Light, itself, but making him bound to duality is something that I don’t think any writer intended. Morrison never intended Overvoid to be dual, Snyder never intended the Source to be dual, etc…

There is a bit of a problem with this, though. Presuming that the Presence is the progenitor of the Light of Creation sort-of makes all of the reasons why it was accepted that he is an aspect of it, now incompatible with why he isn't.

This is a problem that arises from the proposal itself, since it sorta presupposes that the statements regarding the Light being created by the Presence are consistent with what we currently know, they're not, since they would be saying that he created himself, and, they only work with aptly ignoring the statements about the Presence and the Source being the same thing.

As for the main proposal, this would be alright, though the Overvoid, Presence and Source all have different roles, so splitting them into keys might be better, in my opinion.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

There is a bit of a problem with this, though. Presuming that the Presence is the progenitor of the Light of Creation sort-of makes all of the reasons why it was accepted that he is an aspect of it, now incompatible with why he isn't.

This thread is to tie in that the three are just aspect of the Light, which doesn’t sit right with all the story as you mention defines the Presence as the progenitor of Light. The story never mentions they are the same, nor even mention the Presence, by name, and for very good reason. A golden rule in DC, as said by many editorial is God in the sense of the supreme monotheistic God, sits at the top.

So, sitting on the theory that these three are the same, and by extent are aspect of the Light isn’t very coherent with the narratives and thus, I am arguing otherwise for it and some of the staff member agree to this. So until, this thread is accepted, the three are accepted to remain the same(that could change), but not yet accepted as being aspect of the Light(which the OP is saying they are).

This is a problem that arises from the proposal itself, since it sorta presupposes that the statements regarding the Light being created by the Presence are consistent with what we currently know, they're not, since they would be saying that he created himself, and, they only work with aptly ignoring the statements about the Presence and the Source being the same thing.

It is? The Light was created because it didn’t exist eternally, thus some external force put it there. Given the only statement of something being uncreated was an unbothered Darkness. Hence why the narration explicitly made it clear after some time, the Light was there as a tiny imperceptible glint of perfection that eventually grew.

So no, nothing denies the “Light” wasn’t created and it was quite clear the Darkness didn’t do it.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

This thread is to tie in that the three are just aspect of the Light, which doesn’t sit right with all the story as you mention defines the Presence as the progenitor of Light.

If this threads purpose isn't a proposal for any scaling changes, then my apologies.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

If this threads purpose isn't a proposal for any scaling changes, then my apologies.

The scaling aspect will also come. Since it’s already been quite a while since Ultima already changed the Tiering System.

However, the Presence being an aspect of the Light and not the opposite is simply bizarre, absurd, and downright ridiculous.

 

[NHTkenshin2]

Then it is probably best to argue on matters related to this scaling somewhere else, since this is just a profile merge.

 

[Weaver261]

If you’re so confident in your stance being right then you should be able to counter my arguments, and not just opt into making dismissive comments like saying my stance doesn’t deserve a serious discussion.

Because your statements are literally biased to ur opinion on UDM being TGD which is wrong. And instead of engaging in actual debate and trying to see others view, you are just keep repeating old records even others provided valid scans. You only take what fit ur opinion as valid and ignore others because they aren't compatible with ur view
I even showed u a scan where UDM is chained up by Pariah who is using a portion of corrupted TGD 's power. Where is your counter for that? You just ignore it because it doesn't fit with ur idea of UDM = TGD.

Upside down man wasn't even a major figure in DC anymore. He was shown as one of the avatar of TGD or corrupted portion of TGD power if you will. He is attending that one club where an old friend of batwoman hosts. He had to obey her rules while he is in her club. UDM almost finished off Louis fox but Kate requested her friend the safety of him. Her friend just snapped and UDM disappeared. That's in The Outsiders comic

Maya was never corrupted by Pariah. The crack only broadened her cosmic awareness which she already had. There was no instances where they mentioned UDM as "The Great Darkness". UDM is one of the otherkinds.

To be honest, this is literally the common sense that can be understood by everyone who read the comics.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

So, everyone here so far: @Weaver261 @Deagonx @Elizio33 as well as myself have said we could go the route of letting the Light/Overvoid become something of an aspect of the Presence rather than the three being an aspect of the Light.

I vouch for this take:

Option 2: We are creating a new key in The Presence profiles that would be related to the Crisis Cosmology called "The Creator". We are making footnotes on all three profiles explaining their relationship to the Light of Creation based on what I personally understood above.

 

[Xearsay]

Because your statements are literally biased to ur opinion on UDM being TGD which is wrong. And instead of engaging in actual debate and trying to see others view, you are just keep repeating old records even others provided valid scans. You only take what fit ur opinion as valid and ignore others because they aren't compatible with ur view

UDM being TGD is a literal fact. The first thing mentioned about the Upside Down Man, is that he’s the Great Darkness, and that the darkness from Swamp Thing #50 was only a small piece of his power that broke free. And this is said by Zatara who was the one of the beings who died and was consumed by the darkness after witnessing its clash with the Presence in Swamp Thing #50. And the same message gets repeated throughout justice league dark multiple times by narration and other credible sources like the Lords of Order.

I even showed u a scan where UDM is chained up by Pariah who is using a portion of corrupted TGD 's power. Where is your counter for that?

Pariah corrupted the Great Darkness with his anti matter chamber, and that’s how he was accessing some of its power, however with that corruption he was able to channel much weaker shadows of all the different shapes of the Great Darkness. And the Upside Down Mans form is one of those “shapes” as shown in JLD, so there’s no contradiction. This also explains why Constantine was able to interact with the form of the Upside Down Man at the same time Pariah had a shadow of that form in his Dark Army.

He is attending that one club where an old friend of batwoman hosts. He had to obey her rules while he is in her club. UDM almost finished off Louis fox but Kate requested her friend the safety of him. Her friend just snapped and UDM disappeared. That's in The Outsiders comic

You mean Nocturna? Luke Fox was acting out of line in the club and so the Upside Down Man tortured him. That’s it. Nocturna never made the Upside Down Man obey anything, or forced him to carry out any orders so I don’t know where you’re even getting that from within the issue. Also she’s literally a street tier Gotham villain so I don’t know why you’d think she has some type of power over the Upside Down Man.

Maya was never corrupted by Pariah. The crack only broadened her cosmic awareness which she already had. There was no instances where they mentioned UDM as "The Great Darkness". UDM is one of the otherkinds.

She perceived Pariahs delusion, so that’s why her origin story is not legit. Also the Upside Down Man is called the Great Darkness in Justice League Dark. It’s said like more than half a dozen times in that series, and I can substantiate every single instance if you want me to.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler2]

Let’s totally not forget that Darkseid in Infinite Frontier literally mentions those who aspire to control the Darkness, and one of them was the Upside Downman. By, Xearsey logic, the Upside Downman wants to control himself? Hm.

 

[Weaver261]

however with that corruption he was able to channel much weaker shadows of all the different shapes of the Great Darkness. And the Upside Down Mans form is one of those “shapes” as shown in JLD, so there’s no contradiction.

You are literally stating the same thing as we did. The form we see is a part of The Great Darkness which basically made UDM an aspect of TGD. The form with no eyes and only mouth is an aspect of TGD and it is called Upside down man becuase he is literally staying upside down :3
I don't even know anymore what you don't understand