DC Comics: The Light of Creation/The Great Darkness/The Presence (Vertigo) - Clean-up

[Elizio33]

The Presence:

• Crisis Cosmology - the Creator
• Vertigo Cosmology - Yahweh
• J.M. DeMatteis - God

That seem right? The reason why I say God is because that’s more Universal since every story he changes the title of the Presence. In Fate it was the Smile, in Spectre it was the Divine Presence, Phantom Stranger it was the Dog, etc…

Yeah.

 

[Asterotheology]

Another point. I think it would be more fair to call God as "The Creator" instead of "The Presence" for the Crisis/Modern Cosmology. I know DeMatteis said that the Creator is an aspect of God, but that is his take on the matter.

I could work on a profile for The Creator in my sandbox if you wish. Here are two of his notable feats:

1. Created and brought the Light of Creation into the Great Darkness as a manifestation of his true form.

2. Banished the Great Darkness to the Shadowlands after he brought the light.

Why would you even mention DeMatteis saying the Creator? It's not like his works are part of the Crisis Cosmology in the first place.

The Presence:

• Crisis Cosmology - the Creator
• Vertigo Cosmology - Yahweh
• J.M. DeMatteis - God

That seem right? The reason why I say God is because that’s more Universal since every story he changes the title of the Presence. In Fate it was the Smile, in Spectre it was the Divine Presence, Phantom Stranger it was the Dog, etc…

In Phantom Stranger, issue 15 blatantly states that it's the Divine Presence and even the Presence before that issue. To be frank, if you read (not you specifically) Supergirl: Wings, Legends of the DC Universe and his Spectre run. It's always Creator, Presence or God for DeMatteis. Only reason the Smile wasn't called the Presence back then was because no writer in any comic used Presence for God, as far as my knowledge goes. Don't think that happened until the 90s started. In the early 80s, DeMatties used to call God the Sacred Duality or Sea of Light where the Oneness lies.

Either way, I'm not too overly concerned about the naming scheme. Whatever is agreed upon, I'm fine with.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

In Phantom Stranger, issue 15 blatantly states that it's the Divine Presence and even the Presence before that issue. To be frank, if you read (not you specifically) Supergirl: Wings, Legends of the DC Universe and his Spectre run. It's always Creator, Presence or God for DeMatteis. Only reason the Smile wasn't called the Presence back then was because no writer in any comic used Presence for God, as far as my knowledge goes. Don't think that happened until the 90s started. In the early 80s, DeMatties used to call God the Sacred Duality or Sea of Light where the Oneness lies.

Of course, though the Dog part was simply because I ask DeMatteis. He told me that it was Didio idea since God in reverse is Dog.

Regardless, the term the Presence was not really coined heavily until the Lucifer series. So yeah, before that it was really known as the Voice and for DeMatteis case “Oneness, God, Love, etc…”

 

[Xearsay]

In essence, they are. Unlike the Ghost Zone, the proximity, location, and usage of the Void is pretty much the same with the Overvoid. That can’t be denied.

I disagree. Nothing indicates that Void Lucifer went into is outside the entire map or anything, and honestly, Lucifer being able to fly through it and do all of what he did there already disqualifies them from being the same. Their similarities start and end at being visually presented as white voids. However, there’s multiple voids in the cosmology that appear the same way like the various limbos, the Collective Unconscious, etc. Even the Godsphere has a white void in the background of all the various Godly realms, and the Lords of Order could literally move it at will. Are you gonna say that’s the Overvoid too and that the Lords of Order are Overvoid level? I don’t think so.

The Light was never claimed to be the Presence, nor the full entity. However, you can nitpick it not being called the Presence despite the fact “God” in many of these stories refers to the Presence. This story was no different.

The Spectre straight up calls him God and his master, and the Darkness met this God in Heaven. It’s 100% the Presence. I don’t even know how you can say it’s not based off what we see in the issue.

Also my reason for that God in Swamp Thing #75, not being the Presence isn’t just because he's not explicitly called the Presence, it’s also because the Presence is directly shown to be something completely transcended by that God in the exact same issue, meaning that God is not The Presence. The only way it can be connected to the Presence is if we have evidence that the Presence is a personal avatar within creation of this of this non-dual God(which would still make the Presence something lesser btw). However there is no evidence for this, so as far as things go, all we know is that there’s a God like the Presence that is a dual being and a part of the concept of Light, and then there’s a God that is beyond duality and thus transcends all dual beings like the Presence. Where this non-dual God just somehow magically becomes the Presence like you’re claiming, despite the same issue showing that this God transcends the Presence is no where to be found.

The Sphere certainly holds Heaven which he predated and created. With an aspect of him living in the Primum Mobile, but the truer being exists much beyond the Map.

A lot of the Gods in Sphere of Gods predate the creation of their own realms. All of them have their own myths where they created their heavens and earth. So the Presence having one doesn’t make him unique. However, there’s definitely no truer Presence beyond the map and there’s really no evidence for that.

So you have no problem randomly making some baseless assumption that the Light matched an “aspect” of the Great Darkness yet you claim this wasn’t an aspect of God given the Presence in Heaven is nothing more than an aspect and the #75 of Swamp Thing makes this distinction better known.

I didn’t make an assumption for that claim. I was referencing Justice League Dark which directly calls that Darkness only a piece that broke free of the Otherkind who are the full darkness. And I’m sure you’ve seen that scan, but if you want me to post it I can. Also did you just say the Presence in heaven is an aspect of… the Presence??? I really hope I’m not reading that correctly.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I disagree. Nothing indicates that Void Lucifer went into is outside the entire map or anything, and honestly, Lucifer being able to fly through it is already disqualifies them from being the same. Their similarities start and end at being visually presented as white voids. However, there’s multiple voids in the cosmology that appear the same way like the various limbos, the Collective Unconscious, etc. Even the Godsphere has a white void in the background of all the various Godly realms, and the Lords of Order could literally move it at will. Are you gonna say that’s the Overvoid too and that the Lords of Order are Overvoid level? I don’t think so.

Since when was it disclosed that beings can’t move through the Overvoid? It’s quite evident that Lucifer told us that this Void is beyond Creation several times in the story and holds the immensity of all Creations that teem with life, not unlike the Overvoid.

Plus, navigating the Void was something Lucifer trained to do given that he can resist its effect of perception by training to view Eternity. So, moving through the Void hardly scale the being in question to it, so the Lords of Order wouldn’t scale to the Overvoid. So, I don’t know what you’re trying to convey, unless you mean to say the Overvoid is 0 and cannot be visited, which the Crisis Cosmology blog rejects such notions as absurd.

The Spectre straight up calls him God and his master, and the Darkness met this hand in Heaven. It’s 100% the Presence. I don’t even know how you can say it’s not based off what we see in the issue.

Also, in Volume 2 it was stated the Spectre had he used his power right could have stopped it. Also, calling it “master” doesn’t disprove it since Spectre unless you’re counting the Oversoul has never truly seen the true nature of the Presence. As I already said an aspect of God still is God so Spectre addressing it as “master” isn’t surprising nor out of the norm.

Also my reason for that God in Swamp Thing #75, not being the Presence isn’t just because he's not explicitly called the Presence, it’s also because the Presence is directly shown to be something completely transcended by that God in the exact same issue, meaning that God is not The Presence. The only way it can be connected to the Presence is if we have evidence that the Presence is a personal avatar within creation of this of this non-dual God(which would still make the Presence something lesser btw). However there is no evidence for this, so as far as things go, all we know is that there’s a God like the Presence that is a dual being and a part of the concept of Light, and then there’s a God that is beyond duality and thus transcends all dual beings like the Presence. Where this non-dual God just somehow magically becomes the Presence like you’re claiming, despite the same issue showing that this God transcends the Presence is no where to be found.

The Presence was never mentioned so it couldn’t haven been the “Light” any more than you claiming it wasn’t the non-dual God. Given Swamp Thing publication didn’t ever mention the Presence until much later. So you claiming the Light is lesser than God would just be equivalent of saying the Presence created the “Light” so why would something he create scale to him.

As for your point on the “Presence” being “an avatar” has never been fleshed out. Unless, you take the name seriously to say that the presence of God is just an aspect which the Lucifer series acknowledges. However, it never differentiates when the term the “Presence” is coined to be any lesser when talking about the full fountainhead. It can be used in both cases and after that would just be arguing for semantics.

A lot of the Gods in Sphere of Gods predate the creation of their own realms. All of them have their own myths where they created their heavens and earth. So the Presence having one doesn’t make him unique. However, there’s definitely no truer Presence beyond the map and there’s really no evidence for that.

There is? Death Metal literally states that the Source is the Presence that sits in the center of the Greater Omniverse. Where his energy formed the life force of the Supercelestial and other species in the Void. The Presence even in JLA said to “manifest” in the Void. The Creator entity that it forms through by taking shape isn’t the full entity, that’s just an emanation it takes to talk to his creations.

I didn’t make an assumption for that claim. I was referencing Justice League Dark which directly calls that Darkness only a piece of the Darkness that broke free. And I’m sure you’ve seen that scan, but if you want me to post it I can. Also did you just say the Presence in heaven is an aspect of… the Presence??? I really hope I’m not reading that correctly.

Justice League Incarnate states otherwise saying it was the Darkness, not some random piece. Since publication favors Incarnate and Deadly Green it supercedes the canon of Justice League Dark. Plus, Upside Downman was said to be progenitor of the Otherkind yet he was merely a puppet to the Great Darkness. The entire story arc revolves around the Darkness being Upside Downman as Circe mentioned. However, that holds no value in Dark Frontier.

Also, yes, the Presence takes avatar and form and isn’t even tangible within Heaven much less whatever he is beyond the scope of Creation when he decides to leave or just go silent.

 

[Xearsay]

Since when was it disclosed that beings can’t move through the Overvoid? It’s quite evident that Lucifer told us that this Void is beyond Creation several times in the story and holds the immensity of all Creations that teem with life, not unlike the Overvoid.

Plus, navigating the Void was something Lucifer trained to do given that he can resist its effect of perception by training to view Eternity. So, moving through the Void hardly scale the being in question to it, so the Lords of Order wouldn’t scale to the Overvoid. So, I don’t know what you’re trying to convey, unless you mean to say the Overvoid is 0 and cannot be visited, which the Crisis Cosmology blog rejects such notions as absurd.

I wouldn’t consider movement something that happens in a state where you’re supposed to be resolved to unity, hence why Mandrakk was getting engulfed down to his very idea.

You’re taking creation as used in the context of the Vertigo Lucifer series as everything in the Overvoid, when there’s no reason or room to even make such an interpretation. Also I said the Lords of Order moved the Void, as in when one of the realms in the Godsphere was being wiped by the Void, the Lords of Order literally stopped the Void so it couldn’t dissolve the realm.

Also, in Volume 2 it was stated the Spectre had he used his power right could have stopped it. Also, calling it “master” doesn’t disprove it since Spectre unless you’re counting the Oversoul has never truly seen the true nature of the Presence. As I already said an aspect of God still is God so Spectre addressing it as “master” isn’t surprising nor out of the norm.

I highly doubt it since that portion of the darkness was shown to be an equal to the Presence. So unless the Spectre accesses the full power of the Presence, he should be outclassed.

If the Spectre does not know the “true nature” or identity of his own God, then we’d have no reason to trust him on anything related to the Presence, including his own relationship with the Presence which defines his entire character. And I think you’d agree that this would be a pretty absurd thing to do. The only way around this entity not being the Presence, is if you have actual proof that the entity is truly said somewhere to be an aspect of the Presence with lesser power. If you can’t substantiate that then you’re just entertaining headcanon because nothing in the story states that it’s an aspect.

The Presence was never mentioned so it couldn’t haven been the “Light” any more than you claiming it wasn’t the non-dual God.

The issue depicts a reference to Swamp Thing #50 where the Darkness and the Light(who was identified as the Presence in story) both matched one another. So actually yes I can say the Presence is the light and is not the non-dual God character shown at the end of the issue, because I actually have the evidence to do so.

As for your point on the “Presence” being “an avatar” has never been fleshed out.

Wasn’t my argument. The Spectre is literally an aspect of the Presence so it doesn’t even make sense for me to argue that the Presence has no aspects. My point was that in the context of that Swamp Thing #50, there’s nothing indicating that the being in Heaven the Spectre is calling God and his master, is not and the Presence. And until you substantiate such a thing there’s no reason for it be believed.

There is? Death Metal literally states that the Source is the Presence that sits in the center of the Greater Omniverse. Where his energy formed the life force of the Supercelestial and other species in the Void. The Presence even in JLA said to “manifest” in the Void. The Creator entity that it forms through by taking shape isn’t the full entity, that’s just an emanation it takes to talk to his creations.

Death Metal makes one statement that’s wildly contradictory if taken literally. A lot of entities in DC have been identified as the Source due to whatever connections they have on the cosmic scale. And the Gods in the sphere of gods have creation myths that are all based off the one true story of the Source/Overvoid, which is why the supreme creators in those myths are essentially stand ins for The Source. However, they are still merely myths born of the Collective Unconscious that seek reinterpret what actually happened, on a much lesser cosmic scale.

Also I don’t think the Presence has what we could call “emanations.” I think he has extended aspects like the Spectre, the Radiant, etc, and has personal bodies/forms that he uses to presents himself to other characters. However, I don’t think when he enters any of his personal bodies or forms(like the little dog for example, or the body made out of pure light) that he’s lesser in power or anything. Although this really doesn’t matter because before the darkness and the Presence locked hands, their bodies were more like two big waves energy approaching one another.

Justice League Incarnate states otherwise saying it was the Darkness, not some random piece. Since publication favors Incarnate and Deadly Green it supercedes the canon of Justice League Dark. Plus, Upside Downman was said to be progenitor of the Otherkind yet he was merely a puppet to the Great Darkness. The entire story arc revolves around the Darkness being Upside Downman as Circe mentioned. However, that holds no value in Dark Frontier.

The Justice League Incarnate origin is quite literally a made up delusional from Pariah.

Saying the Upside Down Man is a puppet of the Great Darkness is a pretty inaccurate description considering he quite literally is the true Great Darkness. The twisted and disfigured body that we see walking upside down is a form that he uses to give others something to interact with and comprehend. However, that doesn’t mean his power is lesser while using a body. And we know for a fact that the Upside Down Man is the true and main body representing the Great Darkness because he was stated to be the full extent of it. So the contradiction you’re suggesting exist between JLD and Dark Crisis actually don’t exist at all. A puppet would be more like Lucifer who in his own run was compared to a very small piece of the Darkness which broke free from the Otherplace, and is a mere form that the Upside Down Man can shape shift into at will.

 

[VeryGoofyToddler]

I wouldn’t consider movement something that happens in a state where you’re supposed to be resolved to unity, hence why Mandrakk was getting engulfed down to his very idea.

Even if this were true for that time, it certainly isn’t now. Given that this Cosmology section includes other authors and they don’t use the logic of “resolve/dissolve into unity.” In any given case, it would just elude that Mandrakk doesn’t have the durability for it since other beings can exist in it. Plus, that notion is very outdated ie the Unexpected(Mandrakk return).

You’re taking creation as used in the context of the Vertigo Lucifer series as everything in the Overvoid, when there’s no reason or room to even make such an interpretation. Also I said the Lords of Order moved the Void, as in when one of the realms in the Godsphere was being wiped by the Void, the Lords of Order literally stopped the Void so it couldn’t dissolve the realm.

There’s more room for interpretation to suggest the Void is outside the whole of Creation since the narration in several occasion support this. Given that the Presence jurisdiction ends at Lucifer gates.

As for your “Godsphere Void” take. Lucifer in his stories is much above Lords of Order and he’s seen as an insignificant gnat in the endless, infinite Void outside Creation

I highly doubt it since that portion of the darkness was shown to be an equal to the Presence. So unless the Spectre accesses the full power of the Presence, he should be outclassed.

If the Spectre does not know the “true nature” or identity of his own God, then we’d have no reason to trust him on anything related to the Presence, including his own relationship with the Presence which defines his entire character. And I think you’d agree that this would be a pretty absurd interpretation. The only way around this entity not being the Presence, is if you have actual proof that the entity is truly said somewhere to be an aspect of the Presence with lesser power. If you can’t substantiate that then you’re just entertaining headcanon because nothing in the story states that it’s an aspect.

No, there’s many time when the Presence or one of his creation literally claims that he is beyond shape/form. They interact with what they can of their creator, that doesn’t discount anything especially if the “aspect” literally tells them of his truer self. I don’t know how that’s hard to understand.

The issue depicts a reference to Swamp Thing #50 where the Darkness and the Light who was identified as the Presence in that story, both matched one another. So actually yes I can say the Presence is the light and is not the non-dual God character shown at the end of the issue like you’re claiming.

The story never said “the Presence” so that much is just your headcanon. Given that the Word literally claims that he and the Light were born from the Voice, an aspect of God(also known as the Presence since the term wasn’t used until Lucifer).

Wasn’t my argument. The Spectre is literally an aspect of the Presence so it doesn’t even make sense for me to argue that the Presence has no aspects. My point was that in the context of that Swamp Thing #50, there’s nothing indicating that the being in Heaven the Spectre is calling God and his master, is not and the Presence. And until you substantiate such a thing there’s no reason for it be believed.

They very much is because even in lesser form, God is God. That much is simple since you can refer to things in different level of manifest by the same name.

Death Metal makes one statement that’s wildly contradictory if taken literally. A lot of entities in DC have been identified as the Source due to whatever connections they have on the cosmic scale. And the Gods in the sphere of gods have creation myths that are all based off the one true story involving the Source/Overvoid, which is why the supreme creators in those myths are essentially stand ins for The Source. However, they are still merely myths born of the Collective Unconscious that seek reinterpret what actually happened, on a much lesser cosmic scale.

Collective Unconscious is literally born of the Connective Energy that radiates from the Presence. Even so much so that Snyder claims the “Presence exist outside the Collective Unconscious” much less the stories claiming that CU is nothing but one of the fundamental force created from Connective Energy that connects all story and life.

Also I don’t think the Presence has what we could call “emanations.” I think he has extended aspects like the Spectre, the Radiant, etc, and has personal bodies/forms that he uses to presents himself to other characters. However, I don’t think when he enters any of his personal bodies or forms(like the little dog for example, or the body made out of pure light) that he’s lesser in power or anything. Although this really doesn’t matter because before the darkness and the Presence locked hands, their bodies were more like two big waves energy approaching one another.

You’re very insistent that when the Presence brought the Light, he just somehow became Light that became Creation and Life which isn’t at all supported by the story. The Presence can still exist independently of Light, as he did for timeless amount of time in the beginning less beginning.

The Justice League Incarnate origin is quite literally a made up delusional from Pariah.

The Crack was what gave the person telling the story knowledge. There’s really no evident reason to discount the story which literally highlights all the story prior. The only exception may be if the Darkness has any intention or what Darkseid true role is.

Saying the Upside Down Man is a puppet of the Great Darkness is a pretty inaccurate description considering he quite literally is the true Great Darkness. The twisted and disfigured body that we see walking upside down is a form that he uses to give others something to interact with and comprehend. However, that doesn’t mean his power is lesser while using a body. And we know for a fact that the Upside Down Man is the true and main body representing the Great Darkness because he was stated to be the full extent of it. So the contradiction you’re suggesting exist between JLD and Dark Crisis actually doesn’t exist at all. A puppet would be more like Lucifer who was compared to the very small piece of the Darkness which broke free from the Otherplace, and is a mere form that the Upside Down Man can shape shift into at will.

Pariah siphoning just a fraction of the Darkness true power > Upside Downman as well as all those who were willing to control any part of the Darkness to conquer the Omniverse.

 

[Weaver261]

Saying the Upside Down Man is a puppet of the Great Darkness is a pretty inaccurate description considering he quite literally is the true Great Darkness.

I am amazed that this point that I can't understand like how did you even reach that conclusion. In JLD 2018, it's stated clearly that UDM is the opposite of Hecate who is a being of pure magic. UDM is literally shown as one of the aspects of The Great Darkness.

the Gods in the sphere of gods have creation myths that are all based off the one true story of the Source/Overvoid, which is why the supreme creators in those myths are essentially stand ins for The Source.

I think you're talking about that one spectre comic where spectre travels some places and asks about the creator gods. Spectre even said them "You know nothing" iirc because all of their stories are referring to the Presence. Spectre went into the source after Zeus said the origin of everything might be the source. Only to find out a flaming hand that shows him the power of the god.
Death Metal clearly stated the source and the presence are interchangable. The writer also confirmed that. The writer even goes one step furthur confirming that the overvoid the same void that is shown at the end of Lucifer 2000. The Light, The Hand, The Voice, The Word everything is The Presence's aspects that is used in the multiverse. I would advice you to re-read the comics again before making these kind of assumptions. Try reading cosmology blog post on this wiki, the explanation is quite good. Otherwise this won't get anywhere.