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Time to fit the (literal) god of DC comics as well as the others in our new tiering system
- Thread starter I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die
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So, are we still talking about The Writer, or are we moving on to the rest of DC's gods now? Or are we talking about Milk Wars? Because I have opinions on most of these things, and I'd be happy to contribute now.
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Is there a board consus on metafiction? Because looking at Morisons older works (Animal Man), and looking at his newer works (Multiversity) there definitely seems to be a disjoint. Back then he saw himself as God, but now it's the Overvoid that's God.
And take the Empty Hand. This being was meant to represent comic piracy, and was presented as a legitamate threat to the DC Multiverse in the comics, and as a threat to the comic industry in Morrison's interview.
To me the Empty Hand should be nothing more than a Multiverse-level threat (like he is in the story). And what he's meant to reflect or represent outside of the story should be of no significance.
And what about Morrison's Flex Mentallo (not sure if it's part of the DC continuity)? In that story we have beings that are to wrtiers what writers are to their fictional creators. Would they be Tier 0+ or what's the deal with them?
And take the Empty Hand. This being was meant to represent comic piracy, and was presented as a legitamate threat to the DC Multiverse in the comics, and as a threat to the comic industry in Morrison's interview.
To me the Empty Hand should be nothing more than a Multiverse-level threat (like he is in the story). And what he's meant to reflect or represent outside of the story should be of no significance.
And what about Morrison's Flex Mentallo (not sure if it's part of the DC continuity)? In that story we have beings that are to wrtiers what writers are to their fictional creators. Would they be Tier 0+ or what's the deal with them?
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Metafiction itself doesn't really matter. Something doesn't become Tier 0 just because it's a writer or reader avatar. It's levels of transcendence that are important. The Writer is worth something because Grant Morrison treats the Overvoid as a ridiculously transcendent entity that dwarfs the rest of DC by an unfathomable degree, and he further treats DC itself as something imposed upon that massive entity against its will by an even more transcendent entity that is clearly referring to himself and the general real world DC company. Metafiction is not the key to making something Tier 0, and we usually have rules against that kind of scaling. It's only relevant to the discussion here because of how Morrison writes his stories and how he's structured his entire cosmology around the duality between reality and fiction. Take a look at our rules for tiering characters around this level if any of that confuses you.
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@Ant
No problem. Thanks for having me!
No problem. Thanks for having me!
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Sorry, but I still think there's literally no evidence for the Writer's existence. Even Ultima's admittedly well-composed post is pretty much a "process of elimination" look into the subject, where he identifies the "Writer" simply because he feels as if the previously established stuff would be inconsistent without said "Writer" being a thing - but still without providing specific scans that point to him being the answer to said inconsistencies. I think most people can agree that gaps and inconsistencies ,do not evidence make.
As I have already expressed, I disagree with the view that Morrison ever pointed to the "Writer"'s existence on his interview (and him doing so would never be enough to prove the character's existence, due to the lack of overall evidence outside of that) and have elaborated on it above. It'd make no sense to refer to the Void as God if the Writer were a thing. Also, something else I forgot to point out at the time - Morrison outright states that, beyond the Monitor-World, it's all non-dual Monitor Mind and nothing else. This comes as close to falsifying the Writer's existence as possible.
As for who wrote the multiverse on the body of the Overvoid, it was the Presence. The fact that Morrison views the Source, YHWH and the Void as the same thing doesn't prevent them from being separate. If anything, it confirms the idea that the Presence wrote the Flaw, since those three "entities" are all part of some sort of cosubstantial fictional Holy Trinity - they are separate, but together they form the same essence, God. In fact, Morrison outright states that, beyond the Monitor-World, "all contradictions are resolved into unity", which both proves that the contradictions between all those three entities are irrelevant to their status as one singular God & explains the gaps you pointed out beforehand.
By the way, in the above quote, notice the way refers to the "art", ie. the Flaw, ie. the multiverse, and the "mind of God" - as being correlated, in a way. As far as I'm concerned that yet again goes against the suggestion the Writer was responsible for writing the multiverse, and confirms that either the Presence (one of the three "persons" to form God) or all three of them (the collective singular "God") were responsible for literally imagining the multiverse into existence (something stated multiple times outside Final Crisis), but leaves no space for the Writer to have done so.
Oh, and the idea that "thing beyond understanding" referred to in the Final Crisis storyline is supposed to be the reader is never implied anywhere, and it's the first time I've even seen that interpretation, truth be told. I personally viewed it as nothing more than a way to contrast the Overvoid with the Flaw, since every single instance of the comic being shown with a blank white page in the back was a reference to the Overvoid, without fail.
As I have already expressed, I disagree with the view that Morrison ever pointed to the "Writer"'s existence on his interview (and him doing so would never be enough to prove the character's existence, due to the lack of overall evidence outside of that) and have elaborated on it above. It'd make no sense to refer to the Void as God if the Writer were a thing. Also, something else I forgot to point out at the time - Morrison outright states that, beyond the Monitor-World, it's all non-dual Monitor Mind and nothing else. This comes as close to falsifying the Writer's existence as possible.
As for who wrote the multiverse on the body of the Overvoid, it was the Presence. The fact that Morrison views the Source, YHWH and the Void as the same thing doesn't prevent them from being separate. If anything, it confirms the idea that the Presence wrote the Flaw, since those three "entities" are all part of some sort of cosubstantial fictional Holy Trinity - they are separate, but together they form the same essence, God. In fact, Morrison outright states that, beyond the Monitor-World, "all contradictions are resolved into unity", which both proves that the contradictions between all those three entities are irrelevant to their status as one singular God & explains the gaps you pointed out beforehand.
By the way, in the above quote, notice the way refers to the "art", ie. the Flaw, ie. the multiverse, and the "mind of God" - as being correlated, in a way. As far as I'm concerned that yet again goes against the suggestion the Writer was responsible for writing the multiverse, and confirms that either the Presence (one of the three "persons" to form God) or all three of them (the collective singular "God") were responsible for literally imagining the multiverse into existence (something stated multiple times outside Final Crisis), but leaves no space for the Writer to have done so.
Oh, and the idea that "thing beyond understanding" referred to in the Final Crisis storyline is supposed to be the reader is never implied anywhere, and it's the first time I've even seen that interpretation, truth be told. I personally viewed it as nothing more than a way to contrast the Overvoid with the Flaw, since every single instance of the comic being shown with a blank white page in the back was a reference to the Overvoid, without fail.
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By the way, I'm starting to think we should merge the Presence, the Source, and the Overvoid into one singular page called "God" and make it Tier 0, or at the very least put notes on each of those pages redirecting it to said "God" page, noting that they are just aspects.
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@ClassicNESfan
I understand what you're saying. But how does this translate to higher cardinalities of infinity? I've never seen anything in DC mention higher infinities. But it seems to be a prerequisite for 1-A. You'd think that to quallify for this tier the fiction have to make it clear that it's relying on higher degrees of infinity for its multiverse.
The Overvoid seeing the 52 Multiverse as an infinitesimal speck, simply means that it's infinite (if we decide to take it literally).
If A = B = C = infinity (they're all of equal infinity) then A * B = C is true as well. You're never going to get to greater infinite cardinals by simple arithmetics.
And what about the scene in Dark Nights: Metal where Mxy explains that the Multiverse is 4D (3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time) and 5D is a dimension of imagination and 6D (accessed by Super Celestials) is the highest of all.
If we accept that, and we also accept that the Overvoid s infinitely beyond 6D that would make him 1-B at most.
I understand what you're saying. But how does this translate to higher cardinalities of infinity? I've never seen anything in DC mention higher infinities. But it seems to be a prerequisite for 1-A. You'd think that to quallify for this tier the fiction have to make it clear that it's relying on higher degrees of infinity for its multiverse.
The Overvoid seeing the 52 Multiverse as an infinitesimal speck, simply means that it's infinite (if we decide to take it literally).
If A = B = C = infinity (they're all of equal infinity) then A * B = C is true as well. You're never going to get to greater infinite cardinals by simple arithmetics.
And what about the scene in Dark Nights: Metal where Mxy explains that the Multiverse is 4D (3 dimensions of space and 1 dimension of time) and 5D is a dimension of imagination and 6D (accessed by Super Celestials) is the highest of all.
If we accept that, and we also accept that the Overvoid s infinitely beyond 6D that would make him 1-B at most.
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@Sandman
He outright states that "the edge of the art" and "the edge of the Mind of God" are the same thing, though. Unless the edge of the art is the edge of the Monitor-Mind, which makes no sense and contradicts the entire story showing the multiverse as an infinitesimal infection on the canvas, I think he's simply saying that the "art" represents the mind of God, which fits in perfectly with the multiple scans stating the multiverse was imagined into existence by God. Even that meta Mxy scan showing the pen writing the page has Mxy state he'd "unmagine" the multiverse, suggesting it had been imagined into existence to begin with.
He outright states that "the edge of the art" and "the edge of the Mind of God" are the same thing, though. Unless the edge of the art is the edge of the Monitor-Mind, which makes no sense and contradicts the entire story showing the multiverse as an infinitesimal infection on the canvas, I think he's simply saying that the "art" represents the mind of God, which fits in perfectly with the multiple scans stating the multiverse was imagined into existence by God. Even that meta Mxy scan showing the pen writing the page has Mxy state he'd "unmagine" the multiverse, suggesting it had been imagined into existence to begin with.
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Where Mandrakk and CAS were fighting was at the edge of Nil and beyond that was the Void.
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@Sandstorm
I don't disagree with that, considering it's literally stated in the very story. I am saying that the Mind of God literally represents the Art, due to the multiverse being imagined into existence.
I don't disagree with that, considering it's literally stated in the very story. I am saying that the Mind of God literally represents the Art, due to the multiverse being imagined into existence.
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It wouldn't disclude it if such a writer's existence were actually implied.
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The character in Animal Man is never remotely suggested to be an avatar of any supreme entity.
Even if he were, Nix Uotan is literally Grant Morrison and Mandrakk is Alan Moore. Animal-Man's Grant Morrison calls himself a demiurge. Considering the Monitors were created by the Void to shield himself from the Flaw, they'd definitely be demiurgic to the Overvoid itself, so Animal-Man Grant Morrison could be an avatar of Nix Uotan, potentially.
Don't mind the baseless speculation above, though.
Even if he were, Nix Uotan is literally Grant Morrison and Mandrakk is Alan Moore. Animal-Man's Grant Morrison calls himself a demiurge. Considering the Monitors were created by the Void to shield himself from the Flaw, they'd definitely be demiurgic to the Overvoid itself, so Animal-Man Grant Morrison could be an avatar of Nix Uotan, potentially.
Don't mind the baseless speculation above, though.
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Yeah, he is. The scene where he calls Nix Uotan his son is literally a pun on that - Grant Morrison - Grant "Moore's son"
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I don't know, maybe he came in from the meta-side of the story, just like he did on Animal Man.
Yep it has, I can dig it up later.
Yep it has, I can dig it up later.
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Wouldn't it still be tier High 1-A going by the new system in that case?
Probably? The Monitor-Mind, a High 1-A location/entity, is only one of the "three" entities in question, so it'd be pretty much three High 1-As merged together.
Probably? The Monitor-Mind, a High 1-A location/entity, is only one of the "three" entities in question, so it'd be pretty much three High 1-As merged together.
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It is less headcanon than our Writer profile.
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Morrison does seem to hate Moore, and Moore has stated that he considers Morrison insignificant to show any interest in. Moore did satirise Morrison during his Supreme run though, as an overly pretentious and narcissistic superhero comicbook writer.
However, I think that Morrison stated that Mandrakk was supposed to symbolise a destructive DC editor, so I personally think that he is intended to be Dan Didio. There is no person who has damaged DC Comics more than him.
However, I think that Morrison stated that Mandrakk was supposed to symbolise a destructive DC editor, so I personally think that he is intended to be Dan Didio. There is no person who has damaged DC Comics more than him.
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I don't really see why this is an argument, if I'm being honest. Grant Morrison seeing no real line between the DC multiverse and the real world is not only well established and consistent across a staggeringly large amount of his stories and interviews, but it's also very clearly present in all of these specific interviews and comics and the Animal Man run this cosmology is directly linked to. That run introduced the idea that the blank canvis was the bottom layer background for all of DC's reality, that Limbo was where all retconned characters and creatures went when no longer in continuity, and that it was all placed here by The Writer, who appears as a literal representation of the real world Morrison. Grant Morrison even cited Brain Bolland's cover for Animal Man #5 as direct inspiration for the ideas he was exploring in Final Crisis.
I also think it's pretty obvious the scene in Superman Beyond is referring to the reader. Just look at the surrounding context:
"From a direction that has no name comes a sound like breathing." He's hearing the reader breathe as they look down at the comic. "The whole continuum tembles as if cradled." He can feel the reader holding the comic. "And there's a presence, as if I could reach out and touch something immense beyond understanding." He says this as he's literally reaching out toward the reader in a comic book that was originally released with 3-D effects and 3-D glasses. That was the whole gimmick. Frankly, I'm surprised there's anybody out there who interprets this differently.
The reason people keep commenting about The Writer being "obvious" is because it kind of goes without explaining. If the Overvoid is a paper and the flaw on it is ink, then it seems pretty straight-forward that the ink was drawn onto the paper by a writer rather than spontaneously springing into existence, being drawn by the paper itself, or being drawn by a drawing on the supposedly completely blank paper. This is only further reinforced by Grant Morrison constantly saying it was "drawn on," "written on," etc. He's not trying to say anything complicated here. He's just out-and-out talking about how comics are made, and it's completely in line with his writing style. I don't think 'draw' being in quotes one out of three times in that single article that was linked is particularly good evidence that this is all a metaphor either. First of all, it's only a single instance in a single interview, but secondly, Grant Morrison obviously didn't transcribe that article. The guy who was interviewing him did. Adding quotes around the word "draw" may not necessarily be indicative of Grant Morrison's feelings on the matter. In fact, I'd say it probably isn't. What we have here is a guy known for constantly inserting metafiction into the core structure of his stories. A guy who constantly goes on about how DC is a real place and Superman is a real character- they just exist in our comics, our art, and our imagination! Then he was put in charge of writing DC's cosmology and creation story. He litters it with metafictional elements everywhere and directly ties it all back to concepts he invented in a previous run that suggest all of DC is drawn on a piece of paper by a group of writers in the real world. He continues to refer to it as a story about ink being put onto paper and stories being drawn on a canvas, wherein the multiverse is the ink/story and the Overvoid is the paper/canvas. It just seems remarkably clean to me. I don't understand the need to try to reinterpret it all as Grant Morrison suggesting that life sprung into the DC by itself and he isn't being metafictional for the first time in his entire career when he calls the Overmonitor "paper" and the multiverse a "drawing" on it.
I also think it's pretty obvious the scene in Superman Beyond is referring to the reader. Just look at the surrounding context:
"From a direction that has no name comes a sound like breathing." He's hearing the reader breathe as they look down at the comic. "The whole continuum tembles as if cradled." He can feel the reader holding the comic. "And there's a presence, as if I could reach out and touch something immense beyond understanding." He says this as he's literally reaching out toward the reader in a comic book that was originally released with 3-D effects and 3-D glasses. That was the whole gimmick. Frankly, I'm surprised there's anybody out there who interprets this differently.
The reason people keep commenting about The Writer being "obvious" is because it kind of goes without explaining. If the Overvoid is a paper and the flaw on it is ink, then it seems pretty straight-forward that the ink was drawn onto the paper by a writer rather than spontaneously springing into existence, being drawn by the paper itself, or being drawn by a drawing on the supposedly completely blank paper. This is only further reinforced by Grant Morrison constantly saying it was "drawn on," "written on," etc. He's not trying to say anything complicated here. He's just out-and-out talking about how comics are made, and it's completely in line with his writing style. I don't think 'draw' being in quotes one out of three times in that single article that was linked is particularly good evidence that this is all a metaphor either. First of all, it's only a single instance in a single interview, but secondly, Grant Morrison obviously didn't transcribe that article. The guy who was interviewing him did. Adding quotes around the word "draw" may not necessarily be indicative of Grant Morrison's feelings on the matter. In fact, I'd say it probably isn't. What we have here is a guy known for constantly inserting metafiction into the core structure of his stories. A guy who constantly goes on about how DC is a real place and Superman is a real character- they just exist in our comics, our art, and our imagination! Then he was put in charge of writing DC's cosmology and creation story. He litters it with metafictional elements everywhere and directly ties it all back to concepts he invented in a previous run that suggest all of DC is drawn on a piece of paper by a group of writers in the real world. He continues to refer to it as a story about ink being put onto paper and stories being drawn on a canvas, wherein the multiverse is the ink/story and the Overvoid is the paper/canvas. It just seems remarkably clean to me. I don't understand the need to try to reinterpret it all as Grant Morrison suggesting that life sprung into the DC by itself and he isn't being metafictional for the first time in his entire career when he calls the Overmonitor "paper" and the multiverse a "drawing" on it.
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It's worth noting that, in DeMatteis's stories, the Presence is called the Writer of the story of that is the DC Multiverse.
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Yet we refuse to separate DeMatteis from Carey's blatantly less-powerful version.
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DeMatteis clearly has wildly different views on the Presence than Carey, since he's stated he views the Presence as "permeating" the Overvoid. DeMatteis and Morrison's views can probably fit in just fine with each other, though, if you view the Presence as one of the 3 persons/entities on DC'S Godhood.
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It really doesn't, and it sets a bad precedence.ClassicNESfan said:
The issue is that it's heavily reliant on interpretation with no real support in the comics. And like I said before, the Writer is dead. He died in Suicide Squad, and even Morrison acknowledged this.
NRMA: One final sidenote - what was your reaction to appearing in Suicide Squad, as "The Writer" only to be killed off in issue #58?
GM: I think it probably served me right after everything I'd put Buddy Baker through. I just come back from the dead, stronger and stranger, like everyone else in comics.
https://sites.google.com/site/deepspacetransmissions/interviews-1/2000-2005/newsarama---grant-morrison-on-animal-ma
And if the Wiki Article had a Status, the Supreme Being would be canonically "Dead."
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@NES
I guess Mister Mxy should be Tier 0, since he is literally shown destroying the pen that wrote the comic (and thus "the Writer") when he goes into a berserk rampage and states he will unimagine the multiverse. I don't think we can cherrypick when a meta-reference is supposed to be literal and it isn't and when it's a part of the verse outside a 4th-Wall reference, no offense.
I guess Mister Mxy should be Tier 0, since he is literally shown destroying the pen that wrote the comic (and thus "the Writer") when he goes into a berserk rampage and states he will unimagine the multiverse. I don't think we can cherrypick when a meta-reference is supposed to be literal and it isn't and when it's a part of the verse outside a 4th-Wall reference, no offense.
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