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Someone remind me what ZY's feat was again.
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Skill Thread: New Beginnings
- Thread starter BakiHanma18
- Start date
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Yeah that's similar enough to ikki. That's a 10.
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Several.
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A bit confused on that last bit. From the quote above, Ikki only does it to one person at a time while ZY does it to hundreds of millions. Would he not be blatantly superior to Ikki in this aspect so he would be 10 while Ikki is 9? Or would it just be that they both do the same thing (quality wise) so they go in the 10?
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I've explained before. Doing many people instead of 1 is just a processing speed feat. Basically a lot more calculation. Rather than better AP, cus the AP is the same, just having the brain capacity to do the same analysis on more people.
Not harder to pull off, just more taxing mind processing wise.
Not harder to pull off, just more taxing mind processing wise.
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I mean having that brain capacity and being able to use it to the fullest on that level such as ZY aren’t exactly the same.
I would argue it is a better feat since he is juggling multiple instances of the analysis without trouble, being able to effectively use all of that capacity has to be a good feat.
I would argue it is a better feat since he is juggling multiple instances of the analysis without trouble, being able to effectively use all of that capacity has to be a good feat.
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It is a good feat, but it is a good calculation feat. Not a better AP feat. So it's not that it is nothing, it's just not in the AP category anymore as a feat. Because supercomputers can do that, but that doesn't make supercomputer's "skilled".
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I don’t see why it wouldn’t (besides the fact that computers aren’t able to necessarily apply that to combat.)
It isn’t just ye amount of calculations; it is the fact that you can apply all of that in combat which makes it a good feat.
Being able to use all of that brain space and many calculations effectively in a fight is a pretty clear combat feat, rather than a purely calculation feat.
It isn’t just ye amount of calculations; it is the fact that you can apply all of that in combat which makes it a good feat.
Being able to use all of that brain space and many calculations effectively in a fight is a pretty clear combat feat, rather than a purely calculation feat.
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Applying calculations in combat ain't exactly Analytical Prediction now is it?
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It is if the calculations are the predictions, that was a bit of bad wording but the point still stands. If you are able to make and apply far more accurate predictions, than that is a better feat.
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Accuracy is a better feat, yes. More people isn't more accuracy though.
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...ahhhh why do you pretty much change the topic everytime i ask sth to try and make you understand?
Me: Calculation is not Analytical Prediction.
You: Well if you are able to apply them with more accuracy it is? (implying it's a case of it being more accurate)
Me: More people isn't more accuracy.
You: Well more people being predicted at once is. (back to the calculation part forgetting that "more accurate" thing)
Come on now. Stay consistent in your point.
Me: Calculation is not Analytical Prediction.
You: Well if you are able to apply them with more accuracy it is? (implying it's a case of it being more accurate)
Me: More people isn't more accuracy.
You: Well more people being predicted at once is. (back to the calculation part forgetting that "more accurate" thing)
Come on now. Stay consistent in your point.
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Let me explain in more detail. Let's take ikki for example. Ikki can predict all those guys individually, just fine. ZY can analyze them all at the same time.
So it's not that ZY can predict better cus it's not sth Ikki cannot pull off. He just has enough brain capacity to do the 28 people at the same time whereas Ikki has to take them 1 by 1.
It's not the analytical prediction that is better here, it is ZY's brain capacity/calculating ability. So you can consider it impressive, i agree, but it's not more impressive than ikki because of the prediction cus he's not getting any more info out of people. It is more impressive in the calculating departament.
Do you understand my point? It is impressive for sure, just not in the AP category cus it's not better AP that is required to do 28 people at the same time, it's brain capacity.
So it's not that ZY can predict better cus it's not sth Ikki cannot pull off. He just has enough brain capacity to do the 28 people at the same time whereas Ikki has to take them 1 by 1.
It's not the analytical prediction that is better here, it is ZY's brain capacity/calculating ability. So you can consider it impressive, i agree, but it's not more impressive than ikki because of the prediction cus he's not getting any more info out of people. It is more impressive in the calculating departament.
Do you understand my point? It is impressive for sure, just not in the AP category cus it's not better AP that is required to do 28 people at the same time, it's brain capacity.
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I understand your point but I respectfully disagree. Having that much brain capacity isn’t a skill feat but using it effectively like that should be. He is getting more total info at once (even if he isn’t getting more out of one person.) and applying it, which is what this all about.
AP is the ability to take in and do analysis of information. They make equal analysis but Z can use more information effectively; even if you write it off as brain capacity it is a better skill feat since he is able to skillfully use that capacity for a better result.
AP is the ability to take in and do analysis of information. They make equal analysis but Z can use more information effectively; even if you write it off as brain capacity it is a better skill feat since he is able to skillfully use that capacity for a better result.
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>even if you write it off as brain capacity it is a better skill feat since he is able to skillfully use that capacity for a better result.
Me: It is impressive for sure, just not in the AP category
Are you sure you got my point though? I outright said "it is impressive it's just not because of Prediction". It is a skill feat in other categories. And you say pretty much the same.
Me: It is impressive for sure, just not in the AP category
Are you sure you got my point though? I outright said "it is impressive it's just not because of Prediction". It is a skill feat in other categories. And you say pretty much the same.
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We need to differentiate AP and Information Analysis since there's a pretty clear difference.
As for how we score AP it should consider the amount of "steps" one can read ahead, I.E people like Kuroki who can always stay much more than 10 steps ahead of his opponent with his Foresight. Ikki's stuff has to do with AP and Information Analysis, his AP is weaker than his Information Analysis ability since he can't see thousands of possibilities like others can, but he has the added benefit of having his Information Analysis.
Speaking of which we should start ranking that as well if we haven't already.
As for how we score AP it should consider the amount of "steps" one can read ahead, I.E people like Kuroki who can always stay much more than 10 steps ahead of his opponent with his Foresight. Ikki's stuff has to do with AP and Information Analysis, his AP is weaker than his Information Analysis ability since he can't see thousands of possibilities like others can, but he has the added benefit of having his Information Analysis.
Speaking of which we should start ranking that as well if we haven't already.
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Ikki can see all possibilities someone can take and narrow it down to only 1 action they will take though.
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Not really. Perfect Vision is the act of "grasping the person's identity and using that to know exactly what that person will do next". It is also impossible to fool, let's not forget that part.
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Which is extremely vague when it comes to the number game, which is what we care about. With the other characters we're given an actual number, unlike here with ambiguous "all possibilities" which can range from 10 moves to thousands, millions, infinite, etc. And for damm sure Ikki's AP isn't infinite.
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Again that's just information analysis and AP mixed together. Identifying ones personality would be Information analysis, prediction is the AP part.
Also let's not say "impossible" as that's a massive NLF.
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- Thread starter
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Okay, based on a brief re-read, it would seem the new candidates for 10 are Uther Doul, Musashi (Saber), ZY, and Ikki Kurogane. Is that correct?
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Ok so yer going down the "bigger number is better" argument now huh? Despite the fact that as i said he takes it 1 step further from that with the "narrowing it down to only 1 true possibility". Which is a straight up upgrade from everything else.
Perfect Vision having IA added into it makes the AP less impressive or sth?
As for impossible to fool, i mean the NLF limits are taken into account. Other than that i don't see what's so NLF about it. Not to mention that NLF or not, it is better than any prediction that has nothing in that regard at all.
Perfect Vision having IA added into it makes the AP less impressive or sth?
As for impossible to fool, i mean the NLF limits are taken into account. Other than that i don't see what's so NLF about it. Not to mention that NLF or not, it is better than any prediction that has nothing in that regard at all.
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Musashi's was a mistranslation, so I'd replace her with Sasaki RoR
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- Thread starter
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Okay, I’ll ask @Creaturemaster971 about the mistranslation, but we can definitely nominate RoR Sasaki, making the nominees Uther, possibly Musashi (Saber), ZY, Ikki, and Sasaki (RoR)
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"Narrowing it down to only one true possiblity"
literally basic Precognition grants this ability. "Narrowing it down" is quite literally the next move they'll actually use is subpar, and your attempting to hype it up to a greater degree than AP that can see thousands, millions and so on and so for instantly and automatically know what every single move they'll be using? I'm sorry but that's utter horse shit, even for you Earl. These people are doing just that, but to a much greater degree. Ikki hasn't faced opponents with several thousands or millions of moves they can make instantly.
literally basic Precognition grants this ability. "Narrowing it down" is quite literally the next move they'll actually use is subpar, and your attempting to hype it up to a greater degree than AP that can see thousands, millions and so on and so for instantly and automatically know what every single move they'll be using? I'm sorry but that's utter horse shit, even for you Earl. These people are doing just that, but to a much greater degree. Ikki hasn't faced opponents with several thousands or millions of moves they can make instantly.
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And you know that these guys didn't have several thousands of possible moves how?
Edit: How do you define the amount of moves a character has?
Edit: How do you define the amount of moves a character has?
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Going off of what I've read of people's examples so far, I'm inclined to say ZY's precog is indeed better than Ikki, but I would call Ikki's stuff a better example of Info Analysis than precog. It still totally is a form of precog along with the analysis, but I'd call it a 10 in analysis and an 8 or so in precog.
I'll see what I can find on the Musashi mistranslation. Wish I could read Japanese so I could just read the original text.
Also don't Yujiro and Hayato also have some fun precog stuff? Or is it not really worth mentioning among these other examples.
I'll see what I can find on the Musashi mistranslation. Wish I could read Japanese so I could just read the original text.
Also don't Yujiro and Hayato also have some fun precog stuff? Or is it not really worth mentioning among these other examples.
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The translation I has read, according to the person who posted it, was "Courtesy of /vg/ and JetKinen from Beast's Lair."
Not sure who those are
Not sure who those are
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The best part about Ikki's precog is this though:
The principle he spoke of wasn't a notion limited to the here and now. That predictability of human thought was a firmly-rooted identity, not something that could be changed in an instant. However much the person himself wants to outsmart that identity, even the thought of outsmarting it arises from the identity itself, and therefore couldn't escape Ikki's perception. By stealing the opponent's identity, Ikki seized all those thoughts and feelings.
Also what's the best ZY has achieved with precog?
The principle he spoke of wasn't a notion limited to the here and now. That predictability of human thought was a firmly-rooted identity, not something that could be changed in an instant. However much the person himself wants to outsmart that identity, even the thought of outsmarting it arises from the identity itself, and therefore couldn't escape Ikki's perception. By stealing the opponent's identity, Ikki seized all those thoughts and feelings.
Also what's the best ZY has achieved with precog?
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Don’t remember for sure about Hayato, but Yujiro wouldn’t qualify for 10 at least. He’s only shown to be able to predict a fight with tens of moves use, and even if he scales to Musashi, he’d only know for sure one move ahead, being able to read someone’s brain signals to know what they’re going to do next. Maybe above a 7, since it’s practically precog, but not a 10 imo
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It's up to you to prove said characters have several thousands and millions of moves and attacks. We're working with statements, Ikki hasn't the same luxury with his AP.
None of his opponents come close to such a number, unless it's stated that have x numbers of moves and abilities then it can't be assumed as much.
Literally reading ahead through as many moves as the opponent has as possible as narrowing it down. I.E, a boxer only has so many moves to throw out, same applies with many martial arts being limited in the amount of moves they have at their disposal. Good examples would be Foresight users from Kengan Ashura who can predict up to 10+ moves and analyze them, narrowing down every possible move they can make until then. Kuroki Gensai and Agito Kanoh take it a step further by reading much further ahead than just 10 steps.
then we go on to people like RoR Sasaki who can accurately predict several thousands of possibilities and narrow it them down to one action they make, Poseidon can match said level of prediction with his own and surpass it mid comabt, Sasaki later overcomes Poseidon's with his own at the end of the fight. So they both scale above being able to narrow down singular possibilities from several thousands different possible attacks. We're working with stated numbers, not a vague figure such as "all possibilities" which is vague since the number could range from 4 moves to millions to infinite. Do you see where I'm going?
Ikki's stuff is better for information analysis but his actual AP, I.E the amount of moves he can read ahead is unknown due to a figure never being given. With Sasaki, ZY and the Warhammer fellow we have actual figures we're working with. Hence why Creature changed his mind currently about Musashi's.
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Well that depends on if Beast Lair is considered a valid translation
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Wouldn't having "all possibilities" include all that someone could potentially make? If they had less than thousands that is all their possibilities. If they had more that is still all their possibilities.
On the other hand, if people had more than 1 million possibilities, ZY wouldn't be able to predict the rest? Is that what you're getting at?
Also ikki is 100 steps ahead with his precog and you're still dodging the "unfoolable" that i mentioned earlier with it's quote. Can any from what you mentioned go to that extent of accuracy?
And there is still my question of, what was the best they could do with the prediction? Ikki could fight someone who could not be sensed by any of the 5 senses. Can any of your guys pull something like that off with only prediction?
And i can understand ZY for an argument, but Sakaki? Does he even predict half of the things Ikki does?
1 thing though:
On the other hand, if people had more than 1 million possibilities, ZY wouldn't be able to predict the rest? Is that what you're getting at?
Also ikki is 100 steps ahead with his precog and you're still dodging the "unfoolable" that i mentioned earlier with it's quote. Can any from what you mentioned go to that extent of accuracy?
And there is still my question of, what was the best they could do with the prediction? Ikki could fight someone who could not be sensed by any of the 5 senses. Can any of your guys pull something like that off with only prediction?
And i can understand ZY for an argument, but Sakaki? Does he even predict half of the things Ikki does?
1 thing though:
Are you confusing "moves ahead" with "possibilities"?
