Naruto: "Possible" LS Reactions for God Tiers + Night Guy Stuff

[Xulrev]

@Black

It was not explained, it was poorly flailed at in an attempt to explain away a glaring issue, something I've run across almost every thread here now lately.

@Rocker

So Madara failing to react to each of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th steps yet reacting to the 5th step is explained away....how? Also the headcanon claim of Madara 'having Guy entertain him' when Madara was getting absolutely decimated is pretty ridiculous to assert and I'd need to see a direct statement from Madara of this, considering he only says he recognizes Guy's Taijutsu

 

[MostPowerfull]

Madara reacted much more often than he did a speedblitz.
He reacted at first when Guy used the Sekizo, defending himself.
He reacted using the gudoudamas to defend himself from the Sekizo again (though Guy flanked him and managed to catch him from behind).
He reacted again when he covered with Gudoudamas and again when he threw them at Guy.
And then, reacted by putting the Shakujo up front , so that Guy hits him first and disintegrates (this is best seen in Anime)..
So, not the contradiction at all. If there was a contradiction, Guy gave Speedblitz in Madara.

And Madara did not fail to react to Night Guy. He simply distorted his front staff and left him open to attack.

Otherwise, I'm neutral.

 

[AstralKing7]

We bring scans^ while u guys bring nothing but your opinionsƒñªÔÇìÔÖé´©Å

But we get blamed for threads going around and around

 

[Xulrev]

@Most

Madara didn't react to Night Guy, he simply got destroyed by it. The gravity waves bent his staff, then Guy slams into Madara's chest. I don't see how that's a reaction per se, I would be interested to hear your thought process though

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Omni
.....its still in his left hand.

@Rocker

Guy wouldn't be LS due to creating GWs. Not only that in another thread dealing with Night Guy it was said even if it was quantifiable, it'd range from MHS+ to Rel.

@Final

So it's not that the argument isn't the same, it's that you don't agree with the previous results...

Neglecting the fact that there is no proof against ST being LS, here is the differencea s stated above.

• ST was being argued to be LS because it's a Gravity Wave.

• Madara is being argued to Potentially have LS reactions for Potentially reacting to the Bending of Space (Gravity Waves)

The arguments deal with similar factors (Gravity waves) But they are not the same. And unless someone on VsBW is gonna disprove Gravity Waves being LS and win a Nobel Prize, there is simply no debunking this.

Literally, the DontTalk is the only one to have a ner 100% relevant answer to the OP.

 

[Rocker1189]

@Rocker

So Madara failing to react to each of the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th steps yet reacting to the 5th step is explained away....how? Also the headcanon claim of Madara 'having Guy entertain him' when Madara was getting absolutely decimated is pretty ridiculous to assert and I'd need to see a direct statement from Madara of this, considering he only says he recognizes Guy's Taijutsu

Except as I said he was literally unable to react to those as the first one stuck him in place, which is the point of the sekizo, you trap your opponent with air canons ever inceasing in sped and then finish with a punch.

It is clearly not head canon when Madara barely tried, the dude did not even use his Limbo. It is only Night Guy that can be argued to have been when he was in danger.

 

[BlackeJan]

@Xul

No it WAS explained. It was honestly explain well so don't know where ya getting that from that and not only that to say it's flailed when it's something that came from scientists

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Xulrev

As Guy approached, Madara placed the shakujo in front of her. This is Reaction.

Guy manages to bypasses his defense with a spatial distortion and catches him unprepared, is not speedblitz, much less characterized as "no reaction."

 

[Xulrev]

Except as I said he was literally unable to react to those as the first one stuck him in place, which is the point of the sekizo, you trap your opponent with air canons ever inceasing in sped and then finish with a punch.

So why, then, was he suddenly able to defy the entire point of the attack (which clearly worked) at the (allegedly) fastest step when unable to react to the others? The argument of 'Guy slowed down for the 5th Step' holds strong as an answer to this question.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

@Most
Madara didn't react to Night Guy, he simply got destroyed by it. The gravity waves bent his staff, then Guy slams into Madara's chest. I don't see how that's a reaction per se, I would be interested to hear your thought process though

My dude...Madara literally percieves and comments on Guy's speed and Reacts to the bending of space even before guy connects.

 

[Rocker1189]

So why, then, was he suddenly able to defy the entire point of the attack (which clearly worked) at the (allegedly) fastest step when unable to react to the others? The argument of 'Guy slowed down for the 5th Step' holds strong as an answer to this question.

Because he figured he could just use the TSBs in an aoe other than a 1 side block.

I mean it is not allegely the fastest whatever you believe it is the fastest step.

Except literally nothign shows that he slowed down at all. Minato specifically tells him not to, unless you are going to super impose Guy's thoughts and actions over the manga.

 

[MostPowerfull]

Because while Madara had a large shield of Gudoudama in front of her and capping her vision, Guy flanked and managed to catch him behind his back.
It's not speedblitz, let alone a "no reaction". This was debunked by the scan I just posted.

 

[Omimi]

@Most

Madara didn't react to Night Guy, he simply got destroyed by it. The gravity waves bent his staff, then Guy slams into Madara's chest. I don't see how that's a reaction per se, I would be interested to hear your thought process though

Madara did react to Night Guy

@Omimi; call me crazy but Madara's staff still looks like it is in his left hand?

zoom it and u will see it right
even if what u said is true he will still scale

reason

look his right hand is only 1 inch above from his left hand


then here we only see his one hand which mean he has moved one of of his hand

 

[TheFinalOrder]

This is going around in circles.
The feat is self-defeating in purpose if an attempt is made to claim it is Lightspeed (Madara reacting to the allegedly Lightspeed gravity waves yet failing to react to the slower Guy is a massive contradiction within a single feat, thus can't be rationally used).

It is an Unknown as to how fast Guy was moving here.

Madara entirely fails to react to Guy's physical attack when Night Guy is launched.

It does not scale unless we want to try and force it to in an irrational manner just for the purpose of reaching for feats.

The sekizo argument is its own weird bundle of issues, first and foremost being that nowhere does sekizo claim it doubles a user's speed with each step, just that it increases it for each step taken (1 to 5 times).

I have zero clue how these threads carry on for so long, especially when there are people in these threads actively trying to claim victimization and outright quarantine any opposing argument just to have a safe space for their personal favorite verse. It is antithetical to the sole purpose of this entire wiki which is to discuss and debate accurate power ratings of verses, and shutting out voices you simply don't like for bringing up points you don't like that affect your verse is asinine, childish, and is attempting to set a massively harmful and oppressive precedent.

This is all kinds of wrong.

• Not only does Madara react to guy on several occasions Even after The 2nd step but he reacts to his fastest technique.

• Madara is heavily implied to have kept up with Guy and could fight him 1 v 1 off panel between 669 and 672 where whem we return to the fight, Guy has been visibly injured.

My guy, you're being misleading.

 

[Omimi]

So why, then, was he suddenly able to defy the entire point of the attack (which clearly worked) at the (allegedly) fastest step when unable to react to the others? The argument of 'Guy slowed down for the 5th Step' holds strong as an answer to this question.

minato own word disagree with that

 

[AstralKing7]

Can we please get staff here or calc members to help us discuss the rel rating for might guy

 

[BlackeJan]

Really we need Donttalk cause of the bending space thing

 

[TheFinalOrder]

So, as things stands, @DontTalk has given his opinion:

• "He doesn't need to react to the propagation of the wave front to do this, though. Just like someone reacting to a gravity lense (which humans are known to do) he only needs to react to the lasting field."

• "It means we won't assume he can." (In Response to Reply 35)

Now, I tried looking up Gravity Lense and I may not be getting the right results, but if i am, i don't see the comparison he's trying to make (Could be my own ignorance) but 1 big factor here I want to note is that DontTalk doesn't say outright or imply that Madara isn't observing the propagation of the Wave Front warping his TSB, he just says he doesn't have to for him to be observing the bending of space (The TSB). When I asked him to clarify if that meant Madara couldn't be observing the wave front, he just said "we won't assume he can" to which when I stated the inverse of that is also true ("We can't assume he Isn't observing the wave front"), there has yet to be a response from him.

This goes back to the OP when I said that this could be a 50/50 thing, which is why when you read the OP, I give no definites. Most of everything is "Possibly" this or that.

If I may, i'd like to meet in the middle and label these speed ratings as "Possibly", because Madara may or may not be reacting to the wave front and this prevents either side from making the assumption that, "Yes he is" or "No he isn't". I think this is fair as this is the Neutral Path.

 

[M3X_2.0]

I agree that a "Possibly" could work here, and then scale to Naruto because of his reactions being higher or equal to Madara's

 

[AstralKing7]

At the end of the day a possibly is find for both parties I guess

 

[BlackeJan]

Well this "Possibly" works only if Donttalk agrees to what was said above

 

[Xulrev]

>We can't assume he Isn't observing the wave front

@TheFinalOrder, this is not an acceptable rebuttal. You have shifted goal points to attempt to force your opposition to have to prove a negative. That is a base fallacy and not a valid line of thought.

DontTalk's statement is safe and valid, that of 'we wont assume he can' because it's a presumption that we cannot in good conscience accept.

It would be akin to someone claiming 'We won't assume God exists' and you retorting 'Well we can't assume God DOESN'T exist'. It's not a valid rebuttal. As such, your middle ground idea doesn't hold water.

 

[AstralKing7]

I don't see anything wrong with that argument and that is the reason and an example why this site uses Possibly on profiles

 

[Aernasilver]

Well, at the very least, What we can prove is in order for gai to have bent space to such a degree, science dictates he'd have to have the mass of a large celestial object and moving massively faster than DBZ Characters.

At least that's what I got from a Calc i did 2 years ago with the aid of my physics teacher.

 

[AstralKing7]

In fact, from what I've seen giving a researched ...

What the scientists say is that gigantic masses that accelerate close to SoL can produce bending in space because they only discovered these, such as planets and black holes.
They do not say that another object near SoL can not do that.

This is interesting

 

[Xulrev]

@Astral

You cannot prove a negative. It's not a valid rebuttal to anything, ever, to invert an argument in such a manner since it's not falsifiable.

It's often something people who haven't engaged proper debate or logic attempt and believe it to be a good cutting retort, not realizing it has not meaningfully engaged the argument since you're patently agreeing to the opposition's stance (via not actually falsifying it) and simply putting forth drivel as a possible alternative (by proposing a non-falsifiable statement as something valid to contend).

 

[Paul_Frank]

We have no examples of smaller objects doing it.

We can't just say "They didn't say smaller things are incapable of doing that so that means they can"

 

[TheFinalOrder]

>We can't assume he Isn't observing the wave front
@TheFinalOrder, this is not an acceptable rebuttal. You have shifted goal points to attempt to force your opposition to have to prove a negative. That is a base fallacy and not a valid line of thought.

DontTalk's statement is safe and valid, that of 'we wont assume he can' because it's a presumption that we cannot in good conscience accept.

It would be akin to someone claiming 'We won't assume God exists' and you retorting 'Well we can't assume God DOESN'T exist'. It's not a valid rebuttal. As such, your middle ground idea doesn't hold water.

No offense, but can you dial your assholeness back a tad bit? Would greatly appreciate it....

For starters, I have not once "shifted goal points" in this entire thread, sir, try paying attention please. Second, there are no "Negatives" for me to prove either.

• There is a feat

• Feat has 2 valid conclusions

• Either one of those conclusions are assumption based

• "Possibly" is the only middle ground as no definitive answer is given without assumptions.

Fact of the matter is, unless you, Don'tTalk or whoever can definitively "prove" Madara couldn't be reacting to the Wave Front, your opinion "holds no water" because the possibility exists until it doesn't.

I have proved everything I needed to, to get to this point.

And your "God" analogy is poor. It has no basis to make either claim. A more "valid" Analogy would be if the question was asked, "Did God create the universe?" And THEN a rebuttal of, "God Doesn't Exist" comes along. Then you can have the petty argument of God's existence, to which, if the Big Bang is the standard to measure his existence, the Middle Ground is still "Possibly" as there is no definitive proof supporting either argument.

The basis of this argument is that there is a Gravity Wave warping space due to Guy accelerating in Madara's Direction and he reacts to the warping of space.

Balls in your court. Prove the possibility of him reacting to wave front doesn't exist instead of being a dick.

 

[MostPowerfull]

^This is a good point indeed, Paul.

But the truth is ... Why apply full physics? In physics, beings can not have the speed of light, because they would have infinite mass, but the "infinite mass" is disregarded, because they are super-strong beings and etc, etc., etc., although they have such velocity is considered.

Why not simply disregard the mass and use just the necessary speed with, as we do in fiction with SoL? This is just a question and I would be grateful if someone answers.

 

[Xulrev]

No need for me to dial back something that I'm not putting forth, Final. Observations based in fact aren't 'assholeness'.

Nothing in your entire response actually meaningfully engages my point up until you get to the God analogy argument. And even at that point, no, the proposed alternative isn't more valid in any way since the proposed analogy still does not deflect the point I make; science can point to the Big Bang as the progenitor of the universe. God doesn't enter the equation meaningfully. Your analogy falls apart since the Creationist side must put forth a 'possibly' that is not backed by reason.

The simple fact remains that inverting an argument to attempt and put forth a non-falsifiable claim as a 'middle ground' is fallacious. It has no standing in any form of debate. Furthermore, the idea that Madara 'possibly' reacted to it is quite ludicrous, following from your own attempt at re-stating my analogy, and only serves to convolute matters for Naruto-verse scaling further. DontTalk provided an actual reasoning for why it's likely Madara was not spontaneously observing something with Lightspeed reactions, and it holds water.

The fact that you must resort to ad hominem instead of strengthening your argument is a little appalling, sidenote. I'd appreciate you not doing so in the future kindly, thank you.

 

[BlackeJan]

@Xul

Watch that hostility plz

 

[BlackeJan]

What Lee said and Guy doing a continuous speeding that makes him faster that's "1-5 TIMES" can be seen very similar to how that demon girl from 7 Deadly Sins

 

[Paul_Frank]

^This is a good point indeed, Paul.

But the truth is ... Why apply full physics? In physics, beings can not have the speed of light, because they would have infinite mass, but the "infinite mass" is disregarded, because they are super-strong beings and etc, etc., etc., although they have such velocity is considered.

Why not simply disregard the mass and use just the necessary speed with, as we do in fiction with SoL? This is just a question and I would be grateful if someone answers.

Because if we are trying to use real life physics principles to get a rating we can't just ignore part of the physics behind it. We can't just take the part about being able to generate gravity at high enough speeds and ignore the fact that science has only confirmed extremely heavy things are capable of this

 

[TheFinalOrder]

And note, the main reason it's stated masses can't move at LS is because no means of producing the energy needed exists, which is basically a technicality. Not that masses aren't inherently not allowed to.

Then again, Naruto is a verse where characters can vaporize mountains, walk on water and fly.

 

[MostPowerfull]

@Paul

But this is contradictory ....

Why ignore the part of physics that says owning it and overtaking it needs infinite energy and you would have infinite mass, but still give SoL to the characters?
This is literally an equal example.

In fact, I do not really care about that, but it sounds like two weights, two measures.

 

[Xulrev]

Sidenote since I gather that my pointing out that non-falsifiable claims being accepted might have been a bit too underappreciated:

If I were to claim 'You cannot prove Madara didn't turn into Zeus from Mythology offscreen to fight Might Guy with the Eight Gates Released' as a possibility for how Madara survived the few chapters he did off-screen, would anyone here meaningfully engage that as 'possible'?

No. It's ridiculous. But neither can anyone give proof that it DIDN'T occur. It's why non-falsifiable claims are inadmissable in debate.

Hopefully that assists in clearing up why the argumentation TheFinalOrder puts forth is bunk from a fundamental point.

 

[TheFinalOrder]

No need for me to dial back something that I'm not putting forth, Final. Observations based in fact aren't 'assholeness'.

Sure, if you had any, but clearly you don't and you clearly can't comprehend your own demeanor when typing, but hey, do you.

Nothing in your entire response actually meaningfully engages my point up until you get to the God analogy argument. And even at that point, no, the proposed alternative isn't more valid in any way since the proposed analogy still does not deflect the point I make; science can point to the Big Bang as the progenitor of the universe. God doesn't enter the equation meaningfully. Your analogy falls apart since the Creationist side must put forth a 'possibly' that is not backed by reason.

Except for the fact that not even science explains what kicked off the Big Bang, so no. And, kudos to you if you "believe that", Ignorance is bliss as they say.

The simple fact remains that inverting an argument to attempt and put forth a non-falsifiable claim as a 'middle ground' is fallacious.

Except that the inverse of Don'tTalk's argument is actually true. Matter affected by the Gravity Wave would be pushed in the direction of propagation and pulled to the inverse at the rate of speed of the wave itself. Sorry if you didn't know this was inherent and needed it spoon fed.

It has no standing in any form of debate.

Except you're the only one wrong here. In every sense but are too ignorant to understand that.

Furthermore, the idea that Madara 'possibly' reacted to it is quite ludicrous, following from your own attempt at re-stating my analogy, and only serves to convolute matters for Naruto-verse scaling further.

Ludicrous? LMAO!! Based on what? Please, explain.

DontTalk provided an actual reasoning for why it's likely Madara was not spontaneously observing something with Lightspeed reactions, and it holds water.

Yeah, but as I stated, the inverse is also true and it'is inherent. Shouldn't have to explain common sense to you.

The fact that you must resort to ad hominem instead of strengthening your argument is a little appalling, sidenote. I'd appreciate you not doing so in the future kindly, thank you.

Lol, ok, when you do, so will I. Infact, don't expect another response. You're attempting to get this thread closed due to hostility. Nice try though.

No more. From here on, if you continue the hostility, rudeness and antagonism, you will be reported.

 

[Rocker1189]

Yeah it seems xulrev's reasons for participating in these threads is to get them closed over anything else.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Did anyone bother asking DT for a followup?

 

[Xulrev]

@TheFinalOrder

Nothing I've asserted in my analogies is personal belief. Simply, they're just arguing perspective tools.

The fact that you need to rely on calling me ignorant and are dropping any pretense of civility when met with argumentation you can't simply debunk is amusing, but the ad hominem is not appreciated.

You actually don't put forth a simple counter to anything I state in my comment and are putting forth the notion of 'Well you're simply wrong because I say so and do so with insults'.

I'm a bit surprised to see such behavior. But I do implore you to report me since I've committed no infractions and paid no insult to your person; rather, the opposite is true, and you're derailing your own thread with petty insults when met with irrefutable argumentation.