War Arc Base/Sage Mode Naruto upgrade

[MinatoSparkle]

Currently, this is WA Naruto's AP rating/justification:

City level+ (Should be as strong as he was before the war), Island level with Sage Mode (Should be at least as strong as before. Matched the Edo 3rd Raikage's Hell Stab's kinetic energy with his Rasengan, circumvented his LCM to crack his skin, and redirected his thrust)

But WA Naruto isn't simply comparable to PA Naruto. There are multiple reasons he got a lot stronger.

1. He cleared the doubts in his mind during his waterfall of truth training, which made his will stronger. This would logically lead to a boost in his mental energy, as will is a component of the mind's strength.
2. He gained a huge amount of strength from the strong thoughts granted by Kushina's love, which is supported by the Volume 54 blurb saying he achieved new growth as a shinobi after inheriting his parents' feelings (this could be in reference to KCM, but it's specifically mentioning his parent's feelings in relation to his growth). Feats support this as well, as Kurama was shocked at Naruto's strength after he talked with Kushina despite already having fought him and felt his Rasenshuriken (the fact that he managed to overpower Kurama's hatred could also be a sign of another amp to his will).
3. He fought a LOT of enemies over the war (there were about 10 significant battles along with the smaller battles that his 13 clones fought on all fronts of the war for hours on end, and all of these clones' experiences would've accumulated in him once they were dispelled), which is stated specifically in reference to Naruto joining the war as a quick way to power up.

Considering that Base WA Naruto>>Base PA Naruto>AS Naruto>BoS Naruto, who is fairly close to Kakashi, who downscales marginally from 7-A, I think it's very reasonable to say that Base WA Naruto should upscale to 7-A. SM Naruto's rating can stay the same though. He's dramatically, but unquantifiably stronger.

Also, I know the speed revisions are coming eventually, but I'm proposing that WA SM Naruto has Sub-Relativistic reaction speed because it's so simple and him being upscaled doesn't affect anyone else.

Spoiler: proposed revisions

Attack Potency: At least City level+ (Should be much stronger than he was before the war, as his will grew stronger through his training at the Waterfall of Truth, he gained a huge amount of strength from his parents' love, and engaged in many battles throughout the war, which is stated by Killer B to be a shortcut to powering up), Island level with Sage Mode (Should be much stronger than his previous Sage Mode. Matched the Edo 3rd Raikage's Hell Stab's kinetic energy with his Rasengan, circumvented his LCM to crack his skin, and redirected his thrust)

Speed: Massively Hypersonic+ (Considerably faster than his previous base), higher with Sage Mode (Considerably faster than he was before the war), with Sub-Relativistic reaction speed (Dodged the Edo 3rd Raikage at point-blank range and intercepted his Hell Stab while he was rushing forward. His reaction speed is faster than it is in Kyūbi Chakra Mode)

Lifting Strength: At least Class M (Far stronger than his previous base), at least Class G with Sage Mode (Stronger than his previous Sage Mode)

Striking Strength: At least City level+ (A lot stronger than he was before the war), Island level with Sage Mode (A lot stronger than he was before the war)

Durability: At least City level+ (Much more durable than he was before the war), Island level with Sage Mode (Much more durable than he was before the war)

Agree: UchihaSlayer96, Damage3245, Nierre, DarkDragonMedeus, AnimesFreak2, Slendveny, Ghostimuscrime, DavidTPPM

Disagree: ***** and giggles DavidTPPM

Neutral:

 

[AnimesFreak2]

I was always of the idea Naruto got stronger after the Waterfall of Truth tbh ( mentally and physically )

Like there ain't no way you seeing what Naruto did to Kurama and thinking his Pain Arc SM...which was weaker than Full Power Tendo Pain was somehow doing the same shit to Kurama lol

Agree

 

[SlendVeny]

Excellent work, me boy.

Agree

 

[Damage3245]

Nothing from the OP supports him specifically upscaling to Mountain level from what I can tell. There needs to be stronger evidence tying him directly to that tier rather than just "He got stronger than he was before".

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Nothing from the OP supports him specifically upscaling to Mountain level from what I can tell. There needs to be stronger evidence tying him directly to that tier rather than just "He got stronger than he was before".

Kakashi is low end relative to Kisame who's 7-A, and Base WA Naruto is much stronger than Kakashi, so he has a higher assertion than Kisame.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump

 

[LordTracer]

Ngl this revision is kinda unnecessary, since there are AP revisions in the works that will change Naruto’s tier.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Ngl this revision is kinda unnecessary, since there are AP revisions in the works that will change Naruto’s tier.

Slayer said it was fine since the justification change would remain anyways

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Bump

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

I'll check this out later. If I end up forgorring, just quote this post ig.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I fully agree with everything

 

[DavidTPPM]

W thread, I agree with the changes but I have an instinctive need to disagree with you for ***** and giggles so mark me down as disagreeing

 

[MinatoSparkle]

W thread, I agree with the changes but I have an instinctive need to disagree with you for ***** and giggles so mark me down as disagreeing

As you will it, so shall it be

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I'll check this out later. If I end up forgorring, just quote this post ig.

As you will it, so shall it be

 

[thedaymare]

Agree, well done!

 

[Damage3245]

In case my earlier post was unclear, I disagree with this so I can be added to the OP.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

In case my earlier post was unclear, I disagree with this so I can be added to the OP.

Added, but you didn't address my point that Naruto is much stronger than Kakashi who's basically on par with Kisame

Also what are your thoughts on the justification itself/speed proposal?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

I'll check this out later. If I end up forgorring, just quote this post ig.

.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Lotta forgorring gorring on

 

[Godernet]

Wait so why are we saying that WA Base Nard is that much stronger than Kakashi?

Naruto being stronger than before doesn’t really automatically mean he’s bridged the gap between himself and Kisame.

Kakashi spends two years from Land of Waves to the War Arc, getting stronger just to still kinda struggle with Zabuza and Haku.

We really shouldn’t force a value on an unquantifiable increase of strength especially if WA Base Nard has no connective scaling to the other 7A’s.

“He got stronger from when he was a rival to Kakashi so him being at least a rival to Kisame physically should be believable.” isnt a strong enough argument at least imo.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Wait so why are we saying that WA Base Nard is that much stronger than Kakashi?

He's much stronger than the Kakashi who fought Kisame, that's the point.

Kakashi spends two years from Land of Waves to the War Arc, getting stronger just to still kinda struggle with Zabuza and Haku.

Haku never once went all out in Part 1 and only does so in the War Arc as an Edo against his will. Also you can make a slight argument that Zabuza's Demon Aura is an amp since after it came out he didn't get instantly stomped by Kakashi despite the fact that Kakashi could fight Obito and his Edo Jinchūriki in Hand to Hand combat who are several tiers above Zabuza.

 

[Godernet]

He's much stronger than the Kakashi who fought Kisame, that's the point.

Kakashi doesn’t fight Kisame physically. He downscales because Guy hit him off guard one time for 0 damage and fought the 30% clone (the Suiton part of the justification is kinda weird tbh bc it was an even clash and we already have Raikiri as 7A if anything he should just be 7A with Ninjutsu but that’s a different point)

And Asuma kinda blocking an attack before getting immediately overpowered.

Haku never once went all out in Part 1 and only does so in the War Arc as an Edo against his will.

He’s definitely putting effort when KN0 Naruto comes out and to save Zabuza from Kakashi.

Unless you say he was also suppressing his durability or something which people in Nard just don’t really do.

Also you can make a slight argument that Zabuza's Demon Aura is an amp since after it came out he didn't get instantly stomped by Kakashi despite the fact that Kakashi could fight Obito and his Edo Jinchūriki in Hand to Hand combat who are several tiers above Zabuza.

Him not getting instantly stomped by WA Kakashi isn’t really an argument.

You could just as easily argue that the gaps between Elite Jounin and Bijuu level ppl isn’t that big at all and they have some low end relativity and it would still make sense.

And given that Zabuza’s aura is never stated or treated by the series to be an amp, we have no reason to believe it is one.

The aura of Elite Jounin was always considered very potent even in Part 1 due to the intent to fight/bloodlust it emitted.

Zabuza’s was especially potent as a product of the Bloody Mist village and its practices.

That and the fact that pm everyone that saw the aura immediately attributes it to Zabuza of the Mist makes it seem like this was always just a staple of his and not some new thing. And given that he had two death matches with Kakashi and eventually died without ever pulling it out, it probably wasn’t an amp or anything major, rather just his killer intent personified in his aura like we see with a lot of stronger Shinobi.

Kakashi just didn’t get one shot gaps stronger than Zabuza over the course of two years, in fact they still show some level of relativity despite Kakashi’s training.

So why are we saying Base WA Nard is twice as strong as before and Kisame level physically just because he was stated to get stronger?

Kakashi was relative but still inferior to Base Guy who is also inferior to Kisame, with us even seeing in Shippuden that in Base he’s more of a rival to a weaker Kisame clone and even needing Gates to beat it.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Wait so why are we saying that WA Base Nard is that much stronger than Kakashi?

Naruto being stronger than before doesn’t really automatically mean he’s bridged the gap between himself and Kisame.

It's not just vaguely "stronger," there are multiple significant boosts that are stacking and making him vastly stronger.

Kakashi spends two years from Land of Waves to the War Arc, getting stronger just to still kinda struggle with Zabuza and Haku.

He's almost certainly mentally nerfed with how he spaces out at times thinking about his past with them and how different they are, doesn't want to fight them, and the whole point of allowing Edos to talk with people is to psychologically mess with them. He also should've been at least slightly slowed down by Ensui holding him with a loose Shadow Possession.

We really shouldn’t force a value on an unquantifiable increase of strength especially if WA Base Nard has no connective scaling to the other 7A’s.

WA Naruto>>PA Naruto>AS Naruto>BoS Naruto<~Kakashi<~Kisame = 7-A is connective scaling based on higher assertions

“He got stronger from when he was a rival to Kakashi so him being at least a rival to Kisame physically should be believable.” isnt a strong enough argument at least imo.

It'll change, but atm Kakashi's physicals scale to his AP which scales to Kisame

 

[SlendVeny]

He’s definitely putting effort when KN0 Naruto comes out and to save Zabuza from Kakashi.

Unless you say he was also suppressing his durability or something which people in Nard just don’t really do.

Edo Haku did factually get stronger, it's in the databooks.

 

[LordTracer]

Edo Haku did factually get stronger, it's in the databooks.

No, he didn’t. That’s a mistranslation and misinterpretation of what the statement is actually about. There’s a note on his profile about this.

 

[SlendVeny]

No, he didn’t. That’s a mistranslation and misinterpretation of what the statement is actually about. There’s a note on his profile about this.

Shit.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Actually now that I think about it the value change isn't too important since it's gonna change again soonish probably. What if I change the AP rating to At least 7-B+ and just keep the justification/speed change?

 

[BlackeJan]

I mean we can also say how chakra control also helped out. With Kurama saying he surpassed Minato and Kushina with it, that means Base Naruto in fact did get stronger

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's a different key

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Actually now that I think about it the value change isn't too important since it's gonna change again soonish probably. What if I change the AP rating to At least 7-B+ and just keep the justification/speed change?

I changed the OP, what do you think now @Damage3245 ?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh right the imgur links got broken, I should probably replace those

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I changed the OP, what do you think now @Damage3245 ?

you cant tag people without staff privileges, quote his previous message instead

Oh right the imgur links got broken, I should probably replace those

Use this site instead links rarely broke for me

 

[MinatoSparkle]

you cant tag people without staff privileges, quote his previous message instead

I assumed he was still following the thread but sure

In case my earlier post was unclear, I disagree with this so I can be added to the OP.

I changed the OP, what do you think now @Damage3245 ?

Use this site instead links rarely broke for me

I shall do so later

 

[BlackeJan]

That's a different key

Is this not War arc Naruto we talking about?

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The key you're talking about is Birth of the Ten Tails' Jinchuriki Naruto

 

[TegamiBachi25]

Ngl this revision is kinda unnecessary, since there are AP revisions in the works that will change Naruto’s tier.

Wasn't there a part 1 CRT that downgraded all of 8-B characters to 9-B or something that got abandoned?

Anyway, not to derail, so bump.

 

[Godernet]

Wasn't there a part 1 CRT that downgraded all of 8-B characters to 9-B or something that got abandoned?

Anyway, not to derail, so bump.

there is a part 1 ap crt in the works but the 8-Bs aren't being downgraded.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

So, I'm really sorry for being super late with this CRT. When I was initially tagged, I was having one of those weeks, and after it'd passed, I high-key forgor about this. Thankfully, the CRT popped up in the "Similar Threads" section while I was replying to Net's Konan CRT, so here we are.

To be completely honest, there are certain things I don't agree with in this CRT at all, BUT since
A) I was already so late to this, I'd rather not hold things up due to debates that won't really amount to much in the end.
B) Frankly, do NOT feel like going back and forth with Sparkle at this time.
C) The scaling for the Mid Tiers hasn't been fully ironed out yet, anyway.

I just decided to keep things uncharacteristically brief and simply state what I'm fine with and call it a day.

I'm fine with WA Base Naruto's justification being "He's stronger than before", or some justification along those lines.
I'm fine with WA SM Naruto having Sub-Rel reactions due to the Third Raikage feats, as well as being stated to have faster reactions/senses than KCM Naruto.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

So, I'm really sorry for being super late with this CRT. When I was initially tagged, I was having one of those weeks, and after it'd passed, I high-key forgor about this. Thankfully, the CRT popped up in the "Similar Threads" section while I was replying to Net's Konan CRT, so here we are.

To be completely honest, there are certain things I don't agree with in this CRT at all, BUT since
A) I was already so late to this, I'd rather not hold things up due to debates that won't really amount to much in the end.
B) Frankly, do NOT feel like going back and forth with Sparkle at this time.
C) The scaling for the Mid Tiers hasn't been fully ironed out yet, anyway.

I just decided to keep things uncharacteristically brief and simply state what I'm fine with and call it a day.

I'm fine with WA Base Naruto's justification being "He's stronger than before", or some justification along those lines.

Like the one in the OP?

I'm fine with WA SM Naruto having Sub-Rel reactions due to the Third Raikage feats, as well as being stated to have faster reactions/senses than KCM Naruto.

Not combat speed?

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Like the one in the OP?

Ehhh, not really what I'd personally go for, but I can live with it for now.

Not combat speed?

Well, the Speed page has this to say:

Reaction Speed​

Reaction speed is the speed at which a character can react to an event or action. This usually only grants a short movement upon reaction, whereas several movements at the same speed switch it to combat speed.

So, several usually means no less than three. And unless my math is off, I only counted two significant movements for Naruto against the Raikage, which were dodging and hitting him with a Rasengan respectively. Given all of that, I think it fits more as Reaction speed under our standards. But if I'm wrong on this, then that's fine. I don't feel too strongly about it one way or another tbh.