Ghostimuscrime
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no because that has a blatant feat, that's the point of unison attacks
meanwhile talking amidst actions happens in every other fiction it would be weird to hold naruto to a different standard entirely
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A Review of the speed of Naruto (Verse)
- Thread starter Damage3245
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meanwhile talking amidst actions happens in every other fiction it would be weird to hold naruto to a different standard entirely
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Using talking speed to judge these things do seem pretty erroneous and inconsistent.
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- #323
If an author doesn't put an explicit timer or clock in the scene, is it impossible for time to be passing while a feat happens to be occuring in a scene?
I just think it's an extraordinary claim to believe that the whole scene takes place in less than 0.0029187 seconds and it requires more evidence to support that claim.
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This happen throughout fiction, it is just a narrative resource, an author does not create a story for Powerscaling, so Powerscaling adapts to the narrative, If we are going to take everything based on "I don't think it should be like this" then what are we doing here? Powerscaling ignores so many things in the narrative and this is just one of them, you can't choose when you want to ignore just to use it as an argument.
I'm wondering what the other ADM's opinion would be if I started arguing that talking in the middle of a fight would be proof that they are fighting below the speed of sound because "I just think it's an extraordinary claim to Believe that these characters voice is above sounds speed and it requires more evidence to support that claim".
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Well, UchihaSlayer96, LordGriffin amd LordTracer had no issue with that point in the OP from what I can tell.
I take your point that an author does not create a story for powerscaling; but ignoring every possible thing that could contradict a potential powerscaling assumption just seems to be way too selective about what the manga is showing us. It's like saying that Rock Lee's anti-feat against the Sound Ninja in Part 1 is irrelevant because it's just "narrative" that he can't keep up with them and that actually pure powerscaling would suggest he's really faster-than-light in that scene.
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This fact was precisely what made me stop being just a reader and made me create an account in this forum.
4 Adms chose to ignore the powerscaling logic. And I can bet that none of them stopped to calculate the TBB speed if the conversation time was considered.
You can Choose the time that you want this would break with powerscaling.
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Welcome to the wiki by the way
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Thanks
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- #329
It's not a rule on the wiki or a universally accepted "powerscaling logic" for every possible scene so far as I'm aware.
Is it impossible for our current powerscaling chains to be wrong?
Testarossa002
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V2 Ay being below a feat done by Kid Gaara does in fact, break narrative
Anyways
Since 4 (including OP) staffs agree with this and only 2 disagreement (Nierre and DDM I think), this should be applied and closed
I don't think there's anything else that hasn't been said yet and there are hardly any other staffs outside those 6 that have any special interest in the verse nor have they indicated such here
Unless Damage has other staffs he's willing to summon here
Anyways
Since 4 (including OP) staffs agree with this and only 2 disagreement (Nierre and DDM I think), this should be applied and closed
I don't think there's anything else that hasn't been said yet and there are hardly any other staffs outside those 6 that have any special interest in the verse nor have they indicated such here
Unless Damage has other staffs he's willing to summon here
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LordTracer and UchihaSlayer96 haven't commented since I updated the OP and changed the proposals, and US96 indicated to me that he'd be commenting soon so I'd prefer to leave the thread open to get their final votes in instead of rushing into it.
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I didn't say it was a rule in this wiki. And not even the most basic logic in the real world is universally accepted, there are always madmen who ignore logic. And yes, this is powerscaling logic accepted by the majority in this community, as well as "Voice can be FTL".
It is not impossible, but you can't prove that it is wrong using this type of argument arbitrary, you can't dictate if a conversation happened in 2 minutes based only because you think that's is it, you can read and choose to interpret that it is 2 minutes, another can interpret that it is 3, this is too much arbitrary to be considered an argument.
Now let's talk specifically from this wiki, if you choose to consider a conversation to calculate some events and other adms from other other verses do not, how could the wiki be fair? We will have Hypersonic Naruto only because an Adm chose to ignore the existence of narrative resources.
Ghostimuscrime
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We’re not ignoring every possible contradiction, I can promise you naruto has several consistent speed metas for this to be overridden (you don’t need ftl, even Subrel and mhs stuff is perfectly valid to bring consistency and out this as an outlier)
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This is exactly what I’ve been saying we’re being held to an absurd standard that other verses conveniently get a free pass on. There’s a clear and drastic disparity in consistency here, and it’s impossible to ignore. If this is the primary evidence being used to justify downgrading the speed, then this CRT should be submitted to a staff discussion where the majority of the wiki’s staff can weigh in. If free action is not accepted by the majority, then we can proceed with downgrades across multiple verses. That’s the only fair and consistent approach.
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What amazes me is that you haven't been banned yet. Judging by how arbitrary this is being. I don't know the limits of Adms so I better refrain from commenting on their attitude. lol
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The VSBW staff aren't so intolerant that they'd fly off the handle and arbitrarily ban anyone over posts like this. We do have rules, and discussion threads for reporting rule-breakers. Since you're relatively new it wouldn't hurt to over our rule pages on the wiki.
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I read it before I create the account, but rules are imposed by people according to their interpretation, you can judge Samlex's attitude to being disruptive to or subversive against this community since he is saying that the community are not being fairly. Remembering that I am not saying that there is any misconduct on the part of anyone. I was just surprised that he can express the thoughts he has about your conduct without being punished.
I know it's best to close this discussion as it's getting off topic, no need to warn.
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So is the next step re-calculating the False Darkness calc as agreed by two mods, after this is accepted?
I don't think high hypersonic is very logical.
I don't think high hypersonic is very logical.
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No. I've got some minor revisions for Part 1. Relatively tiny ones that shouldn't be controversial. (Assuming you're asking about next steps for me; I've got no ideas for what other people are doing)
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Mainly talking about LordTracer's suggestion on not trashing the False Darkness calc completely, and instead re-calculating it, which US69 is in agreement of.
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wdym by recalculating?
the current calc was aiming for accuracy not high values.
If it ended up that way, so be it.
Best thing is to decide on discarding the calc or using it the way it is.
I’m in favour of the latter.
the current calc was aiming for accuracy not high values.
If it ended up that way, so be it.
Best thing is to decide on discarding the calc or using it the way it is.
I’m in favour of the latter.
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"This, I would say to pump the brakes on. I would suggest trying to recalc False Darkness and/or making a calc group thread to compare the Sub-Rel calc to the previous Massively Hypersonic+ calc and any other potential recalcs before trying to remove it outright."
Is what LordTracer said, which Slayer agreed upon.
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Can staff members accept their own threads? It's kinda obvious they're going to agree with their own proposal
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Yes, staff can accept their own threads as long as they are not the only staff accepting it.
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Yeah, as DarkSouls said. There's nothing really stopping some other non-staff member from proposing the same revision.
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Pointing out inconsistencies is not a ban-worthy offence, provided no insults or disrespectful language is used. The wiki is not exclusively for moderators; it is a shared platform for both staff and regular members, who are entitled to express their opinions and question the integrity of the moderation when necessary. Moderators, like any other member, can be held accountable if their actions violate wiki standards, and in some cases where they are reported and found guilty, they might be banned or removed from their role.
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The current calculation was done with the goal of achieving the most accurate numbers possible. Attempting to recalculate False Darkness with the sole aim of obtaining a lower number to fit a particular narrative is not only misleading but also undermines the integrity of the process. Accuracy should always take precedence over convenience or bias.
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- #348
This is correct.
Anyway, I'm not interested in revising the False Darkness calculation. There are more speed revisions planned for Shippuden, not necessarily by me, but it won't be about revising calcs like that.
I'll try to get this thread wrapped up over the weekend.
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I was asked to give my thoughts again, and they haven’t really changed. I still agree with removing the FTL Bijuudama scaling from scaling to Issen.
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Did they say something after argument of kirin calc not having a upper limit which can just upscale it from FD calc?
Kirin being faster than lightning can explain why Zetsu's yapping on a jutsu that he hasn't seen (probably he compares it to real lightning). But if someone disagrees with that kirin calc still hasn't a value that proved to not be able to exceed by kirin.
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So, I wanna make something perfectly clear because I feel like what I said was maybe not perfectly understood, which may be my fault.
First and foremost, I am NOT a CGM. This means that what I have to say regarding calcs is by no means law. I have no authority over calcs. I can't evaluate calcs. I can't axe calcs.
With that being said, my suggestion wasn't even to axe Floxy or KT's calcs. Nor was I saying that they intentionally inflated their results. Not in the slightest.
All I meant was that we've had many calcs over the years made by very competent people (and even some respected CGMs) that did not even come close to these results. So I was merely suggesting that, hey, maybe some knowledgeable CGMs should take a closer look at these new iterations of the False Darkness calcs to see if perhaps a mistake was made that resulted in them being so far above most other versions of the calc. My intention was BY NO MEANS to throw shade at Floxy and/or KT, nor was it to question their integrity in any way shape or form. And I apologize if my words came across as something they're not.
My concern is consistency, and nothing more. That's all I'll say on the matter.
I'm still pretty neutral on these points. I think Testarossa has made some solid arguments, but then again, so have you IMO. So, yeah, I'm kinda stuck in the middle at this time.The Speed of Biju Bombs
Consequently to the previous threads, the speed of the Juubi's own Biju Bombs - being significantly more powerful than Gyuki's Biju Bombs - would also be faster than light, and yet there are scenes that would strongly indicate against that assumption.
In Chapter 613, the Juubi undergoes its evolution into its second form and begins spammning long-range Biju Bombs to rain down in distant locations. The last of these is aimed for the Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters located in the vicinity of Kumogakure. We then get an extensive sequence where the sensory shinobi realize the target of the Biju Bomb, relay it to the others, they discuss the situation and then Shikaku has the telepathic ninja relay his plan to beat the Juubi to everyone on the battlefield before the Biju Bomb lands. We can then see the explosion in the distance and Madara remarking "Finally got them."
For reference, the area where the Juubi is - where the alliance is fighting it - is indicated by the red arrow. The Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters is highlighted by a purple arrow.
Our currently accepted value approximating that distance is around 700 kilometers, and even with other methods it is at-most around a couple thousand kilometers.
Remember that lightspeed means a projectile could circle the Earth approximately 7.5 times in one second.
But here we have multiple characters conversing each other, being shown in contemplation, coming up with ideas... and then to end it off, Madara remarks that they 'finally' got them after waiting for the Biju Bomb to land. This is not the kind of remark one would make if he was just waiting for a hundredth of a second. There is significant travel time for that amount of distance.
While it's a common convention that "Talking is a Free Action" and characters can execute high-speed maneuvers while still speaking normally, this goes well beyond just a line or two. These are full-blown conversations that don't make any sense if an FTL projectile is crossing so short a distance.
The much stronger Juubi's Biju Bomb being this slow should call into question Gyuki's Biju Bomb being assumed to be so fast.
Mifune's Issen
There is room for doubt as to whether or not Mifune's technique itself is a lightspeed projectile. The only basis for Mifune's technique being as fast as it is comes not from the manga itself, from a secondary source, the databook, which is only applied for the Naruto-verse on a case-by-case basis due to some discrepancies and hyperbolic statements such as Sasuke's power exceeding even that of the Akatsuki.
This has been translated by @Arc7Kuroi as:
What the statement in the databook is saying is that Mifune (who uses Iaido, a high-speed form of swordsmanship that is about drawing one's blade quickly and slashing), is slashing his sword at lightspeed and and releasing a flying slash at his enemy.
Even if we took the statement literally and assumed there was no databook hyperbole going on here, we could say that Mifune's sword stroke was executed at the speed of light, but the projectile sword-slash that is released by him is not necessarily travelling the quickly. The databook makes no actual mention of Mifune's flying slash being what is lightspeed.
Although Mifune's technique Issen, can be translated as Flash, or Beam of Light, this again doesn't mean the projectile has to be lightspeed. It's not a literal beam of light he's releasing, but a projectile of chakra released from his sword-swing. Same as all the other regular samurai who coat their blades in chakra and release slashes of chakra that Sasuke is able to react extremely casually to.
Not to mention that describing someone's attack as a "speed of light sword stroke" can easily be a figurative description rather than an absolutely literal measurement of their speed. It conveys the meaning that Mifune's attack is fast which is all that matters.
Assuming we disregard all that though and still insist that it is Mifune's flying slash that is lightspeed, the original argument depends on the assumption that all of the attacks were launched at the exact same time. There is no chance that the shinobi and Gyuki were able to coordinate their moves that precisely; even a microsecond of time between the different jutsu starting to move would be relevant when we're talking about matters of lightspeed. It seems far more likely to me that Kishimoto just wanted a scene of several characters through ranged attacks together and didn't put any serious thought into it of them all having to be exactly the same speed, and that the minimum speed they'd need to travel is lightspeed.
I'm usually not a huge fan of the Outlier argument, because I believe that it's often misused, but in this case I can kinda see it. I don't think the Shippuden Mid-High tiers have any accepted SoL scaling that adds any consistency to this meta. This is why if it were me proposing Issen scaling, I'd have maybe used some Possibly ratings and limited the scaling to those who explicitly need to scale, but alas, I'm not at present. Perhaps a well-made comprehensive thread that aims to establish more consistency and get some of those SoL statements people feel strongly about accepted is warranted, but that's a discussion best reserved for another thread.
I've already commented on this, but it should be noted that this doesn't really have much crossover with the FTL Bijuudama stuff, since base Ay really only scales to Bijuu level in the durability department and nothing else.
Again, I already commented on all of these, so yeah.
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@UchihaSlayer96 Thanks for getting back to this thread and re-evaluating it.
I believe I have enough agree votes in order to implement this, so I will put in the changes from this thread through tonight.
I believe I have enough agree votes in order to implement this, so I will put in the changes from this thread through tonight.
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Before you go can you give your opinion on this? Regarding etherial transmission jutsu
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Honestly, what is the point? I promise you nothing will change, Let it go, man.
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I know but I want to know opinion on it, think about it, can you really guarantee that Shikamaru new era who is FTL has a tought body?
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I mean, it's something I've flip-flopped on many times over the years, and I don't necessarily have a super rigid stance on it one way or the other.
But, like, I really think it's kinda hard to dismiss the Databook very explicitly asserting that a certain level of durability is need to withstand an explicitly stated level of speed. It makes no mention of any nuance like "oh, maybe it's just the Jutsu's mechanics or how it interacts with organic matter", no, it just says "you need to be this tough to withstand being transported at SoL". Does it make perfect sense? No, not really, but it is what it is.
Regardless, though, it's not like anyone below Tsunade has any legitimate or solid SoL scaling regardless, so I don't think this "cap" really has much impact one way or the other tbh.
Nor do I think that in a hypothetical situation where characters of that level have a greater preponderance of evidence for being SoL or above that said "cap" would be valid reason to not scale them to that level. It would just be a low-end outlier in that case, much like the Pain stuff.
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It's fine
but no other CGM seems to be interested from ones I know so I'm just waiting for Damage to gain at least 2 votes.
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Shikamaru is currently scaled as City+ and FTL+ while the "minimum" to survive FTL speed would be Island so... Either that's not a cap or shikamaru needs changeI mean, it's something I've flip-flopped on many times over the years, and I don't necessarily have a super rigid stance on it one way or the other.
But, like, I really think it's kinda hard to dismiss the Databook very explicitly asserting that a certain level of durability is need to withstand an explicitly stated level of speed. It makes no mention of any nuance like "oh, maybe it's just the Jutsu's mechanics or how it interacts with organic matter", no, it just says "you need to be this tough to withstand being transported at SoL". Does it make perfect sense? No, not really, but it is what it is.
Regardless, though, it's not like anyone below Tsunade has any legitimate or solid SoL scaling regardless, so I don't think this "cap" really has much impact one way or the other tbh.
Nor do I think that in a hypothetical situation where characters of that level have a greater preponderance of evidence for being SoL or above that said "cap" would be valid reason to not scale them to that level. It would just be a low-end outlier in that case, much like the Pain stuff.
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I mean, if Shikamaru needs to be changed, then so be it, I don't really mind or care about that.
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