Juubito Speed Upgrade

[ZKillerz]

Same chapter, same setting, they use their combo attacks and then run upto reach that scene

There's like several pages worth of dialogue and two ten tails attack that could've warranted mifune moving from his previous position

They didn't change positions (no time or reason to do so+we see them standing still until they fly)

Who is them? Do you truly believe everyone was staying stationary as the ten tails attacked them?

multi slash scene >obito dialogue> they stand still and random hyuga talks about neji >and then they fly up ch617

There was also multiple ten tails attacks that would warrant people repositioning/moving to avoid rubble and debree

Read my OP

All we see in this panel is that the gyuki is behind an arbitrary amount of the shinobi alliance, you cant possibly assert he's standing behind all of them from this panel

Your entire argument has too many assumptions

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

There's like several pages worth of dialogue and two ten tails attack that could've warranted mifune moving from his previous position

It's not several pages it's just 2,
more panels =/= more time passes
some panels will show you the same event occurring through multiple sides and angles to give better understanding of the environment, same thing here, there's dialogue, a few shots of them standing still, some dialogue and then they move again

Who is them? Do you truly believe everyone was staying stationary as the ten tails attacked them?

why would you arbitrarily assume they would move when we see them standing in one spot glued? the blob used to represent the AS, if there's no reason we don't need to think that, especially if you see shots of them standing in one place, that makes the counter assumption the worse interpretation

There was also multiple ten tails attacks that would warrant people repositioning/moving to avoid rubble and debree

if we take a closer look and analyze the panels where they react
we see them standing still bracing and gazing at what's happening
this indicates there's no such movement, if running and movement was warranted it would get drawn with tiny motion lines, (the hyuga would be running and speaking instead of standing there bracing) so we can safely conclude no such thing happened due to having seen the direct opposite.

All we see in this panel is that the gyuki is behind an arbitrary amount of the shinobi alliance, you cant possibly assert he's standing behind all of them from this panel

nuh uh, it's a simple logical assumption, there's no visible people behind him in this panel. The background consists of smoke, debris, or environmental elements, if Bee was in the middle then pulling out gyuki would trample shinobi beside him and cause disturbance, if hyugas for example was behind him then his large size would get in the way of their attacks
when Bee fires it there are no orange glow beside him to indicate shinobi, but when the other three fire their attacks we always see several shinobi in groups indicating gyuki was alone at the back

So the opposite notions are untrue, sorry

Your entire argument has too many assumptions

assumptions aren't inherently bad, logical ones are necessary to draw conclusions, especially for powerscaling

 

[Apollonir.Scale]

if we do go with that route, then it seems everyone that was subrel would become FTL, I'm too not opposed to it, it'll just make the whole process rather long

Additionally, Hiruzen should also be upgraded to FTL. It is not stated in Hiruzen's Profile why he is scaled to Tobirama's speed.

 

[KaydeeX]

I agree with Sparkle as well.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Additionally, Hiruzen should also be upgraded to FTL. It is not stated in Hiruzen's Profile why he is scaled to Tobirama's speed.

Disagree because Hiruzen doesn’t deserve nice things

 

[Iabihs]

Agree with 8 Tails Scaling, and all those who scale, although im not sure if it can really downscale to as much people as they say. I should work for MKCM2 Naruto, EMS Sasuke near the end, Possibly Madara and hashirama? ten Tails and Juubito obviously, and maybe tobirama and minato, hiruzen as another user mentioned as well.

Neutral on everyone and their mother that is sub-rel scaling to this though..

 

[MinatoSparkle]

It's not as if every sub-rel character is KCM Naruto level

 

[Nierre]

Mifune's attack speed is light speed, it's called beam of light as well as stated as a light speed attack [1c]
(This is accepted as Light Speed in a past crt)

Obviously agree.

Mifune with Issen = 1c
Kurama Amped Mifune with Issen = at least 1.1c

When he striked, fodder Hyuga's Attacks, Temari's wind, Gyuki's Bijuudama all travelled in tandem and
attacked the ten tails, Gyuki's TBB traversed more distance than the beam of light. Thanks to Kurama's
chakra, fodder Hyugas and Temari had their attack speeds raised to ftl levels. As attack speeds are
power feats & rely on how much energy you exert into an attack that helps it propel forward, Kurama's
massively stronger than anyone he amps it would mean his TBB is much faster than FTL with his MKCM
Avatar, he also is relative/superior to Gyuki and would be comparable to his TBB speeds as the strongest
bijuu

I do agree that Kurama amped their speeds to FTL due to this.

Gyuuki wasn't amped by Kurama therefore his TBB must be at least 1.1c. The anime even shows that they all hit the Juubi together so that's good support.

Kurama is superior to Gyuki so he must be at least 1.1c including his TBB.

Juubito reacts to MKCM+SM Naruto's Bijuudama gaining FTL combat speed [1c]
and everyone that is scaled to Juubito's speed gets upgraded from subrel to ftl

And on that note I do agree that Juubito would scale for being able to react.


In terms of every character who would scale to this I'm not really sure, I'd have to re-read the whole fight which im not really interested in doing. so im neutral on everyone else ig

I will mention that I haven't been following this thread closely though, so if there's any consistency issues that've been brought up, I'm unaware of them. The logic itself is sound to me ATM though.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

Obviously agree.

1) LFG
2) Well Killer Bee technically was amped by mkcm chakra like everyone else and it did not neccessarily affect gyuki (we see bee with orange cloaks before, the avatar was his most superior state) but regardless the amp is only a huge buff for hyuga temari etc while bee didnt get much of a buff
3) I realised the others scaling would be an issue so I asked people to delay those arguments, I'll make a crt right after this detailing out the larger chain

 

[Nierre]

2) Well Killer Bee technically was amped by mkcm chakra like everyone else and it did not neccessarily affect gyuki (we see bee with orange cloaks before the avatar regardless was his most superior state) but regardless the amp is only a huge buff for hyuga temari etc while bee didnt get much of a buff

I did see B was amped, but was Gyuuki amped as well? I didn't see any chakra surrounding him

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I did see B was amped, but was Gyuuki amped as well? I didn't see any chakra surrounding him

He wasn't

I assume having it would show cloaks as everyone else did so not showing it likely means gyuki was unaffected


and Kurama gets credited for KCM2's AP as his own AP so since the wiki assumes these avatar forms only make use of the bijuu's power I think it is a safe assumption to say gyuki avatar is just gyuki chakra with bee's cooperation

 

[Nierre]

I assume having it would show cloaks as everyone else did so not showing it likely means gyuki was unaffected

Oh yeah then I agree.

and Kurama gets credited for KCM2's AP as his own AP so since the wiki assumes these avatar forms only make use of the bijuu's power I think it is a safe assumption to say gyuki avatar is just gyuki chakra with bee's cooperation

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I'll change Gyuki justification to straight up ftl tbb and cross out the kurama amp stuff

 

[karo_senpaii]

I'll change Gyuki justification to straight up ftl tbb and cross out the kurama amp stuff

Ten tails reacts to and swats away bee TBB at point blank range to his eye. Everyone from unstable juubito onwards would just upscale.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

d

btw could you help me list out the scaling chain for this

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Obviously agree.

Mifune with Issen = 1c
Kurama Amped Mifune with Issen = at least 1.1c

I do agree that Kurama amped their speeds to FTL due to this.

Gyuuki wasn't amped by Kurama therefore his TBB must be at least 1.1c. The anime even shows that they all hit the Juubi together so that's good support.

Kurama is superior to Gyuki so he must be at least 1.1c including his TBB.

And on that note I do agree that Juubito would scale for being able to react.


In terms of every character who would scale to this I'm not really sure, I'd have to re-read the whole fight which im not really interested in doing. so im neutral on everyone else ig

I will mention that I haven't been following this thread closely though, so if there's any consistency issues that've been brought up, I'm unaware of them. The logic itself is sound to me ATM though.

I agree with this post.

Oh yeah then I agree.

And later this one.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I agree with this post.


And later this one.

thanks Medeus I appreciate it

 

[Damage3245]

I'm wary of these upgrades without seeing how it will all shake out yet. We know that typically most characters can't endure moving at lightspeed, let alone FTL. Only the likes of the 3rd and 4th Raikage, and Tsunade who had to heal afterwards displayed that.

If we end up with a bunch of regular shinobi scaling to FTL speed, then it's going to go against the narrative.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

I don't really like these types of scaling, personal thoughts aside, while I share similar thoughts to Damage and David though the issue is if Mifune's attack was that much faster, it would have hit and dissipated before the others could get in the shot to my understanding. Now while I don't think they need to be it's exact speed, I do think the scaling is valid. Now I will state how on a scaling aspect in comparison to other jutsu and characters how ludicrous this seems but that is my opinion and has not impact on the feat itself, I'm just giving my general thoughts on that but as the OP mentioned, they aren't focusing on that scaling

Anyway I've got some other stuff to take care of. I can agree with the OP but I'm not in favor of it's impact (though again, that's my personal opinion and has no real barring).

I'm wary of these upgrades without seeing how it will all shake out yet. We know that typically most characters can't endure moving at lightspeed, let alone FTL. Only the likes of the 3rd and 4th Raikage, and Tsunade who had to heal afterwards displayed that.

If we end up with a bunch of regular shinobi scaling to FTL speed, then it's going to go against the narrative.

This is my real concern.

 

[Iabihs]

I'm wary of these upgrades without seeing how it will all shake out yet. We know that typically most characters can't endure moving at lightspeed, let alone FTL. Only the likes of the 3rd and 4th Raikage, and Tsunade who had to heal afterwards displayed that.

If we end up with a bunch of regular shinobi scaling to FTL speed, then it's going to go against the narrative.

Where in the narrative does it say you need to be as sturdy as the raikages? It just says sturdy body on the scan you posted.
Does Base Tsunade even have any decent durability feats in base? i checked her profile and the only thing listed is headcanon for her scaling to her own attack power(straight up contradicted by some of the novels ) and her having offscreen fights with Hanzo.....

 

[Damage3245]

I don't really like these types of scaling, personal thoughts aside, while I share similar thoughts to Damage and David though the issue is if Mifune's attack was that much faster, it would have hit and dissipated before the others could get in the shot to my understanding.

I don't think that is necessarily the case. We've no reason to think that his chakra projectile would've dissipated in less than a millisecond. It could still be shown in the panel while all the other projectiles catch up too.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I'm wary of these upgrades without seeing how it will all shake out yet. We know that typically most characters can't endure moving at lightspeed, let alone FTL. Only the likes of the 3rd and 4th Raikage, and Tsunade who had to heal afterwards displayed that.

If we end up with a bunch of regular shinobi scaling to FTL speed, then it's going to go against the narrative.

this is travel speed, not combat speed
moving at high speed across the whole continent would put much more strain on the body than moving across your room at a certain speed
characters like ichigo is given lightning speed for their travel speed while their combat is allowed to be 6c or sth


Also this particular thread is giving ftl combat to ten tails juubito kcm2 naruto and ems sasuke that are way stronger than raikage tier characters

 

[Damage3245]

this is travel speed, not combat speed

That's a meaningless distinction in this case. Nowhere does it say there that moving at lightspeed is totally fine if you're swinging your arms but not if you're being transported as a whole.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

this is travel speed, not combat speed
moving at high speed across the whole continent would put much more strain on the body than moving across your room at a certain speed
characters like ichigo is given lightning speed for their travel speed while their combat is allowed to be 6c or sth

This ain't about Bleach, Ichigo isn't an example you can use. Even if it's travel speed, do you know how far you can get while move at Sub-Relativistic speed in even a simple short burst?

 

[Iabihs]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ggi8HIGXYAAKaRY?format=png&name=360x360


Theres Tsunade taking damage as soon as it starts up.... No travel speed required

We should probably agree on which characters get the rating instead of just everyone whos sub-rel now being rel.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't think that is necessarily the case. We've no reason to think that his chakra projectile would've dissipated in less than a millisecond. It could still be shown in the panel while all the other projectiles catch up too.

it's behind the wind scythes, it's not stuck there nor is it a physical object to stay stuck on the arms without inflicting damage
and we have anime for reference disproving your hypothetical scenario where they're literally moving in tandem with each other

This ain't about Bleach, Ichigo isn't an example you can use. Even if it's travel speed, do you know how far you can get while move at Sub-Relativistic speed in even a simple short burst?

I mean he was accepted by the wiki no? we can go very far with subrel but thats travel speed, being ftl when moving across a room just shortens the time it takes to cover the distance

That's a meaningless distinction in this case. Nowhere does it say there that moving at lightspeed is totally fine if you're swinging your arms but not if you're being transported as a whole.

im not giving it to characters like tsunade, i doubt the scaling would reach her unless you can point out a chain to me
reminder this is for Bee's TBB > Juubi > Juubito > Naruto Sasuke

all of them would crush tsunade easily

 

[KaydeeX]

I'm wary of these upgrades without seeing how it will all shake out yet. We know that typically most characters can't endure moving at lightspeed, let alone FTL. Only the likes of the 3rd and 4th Raikage, and Tsunade who had to heal afterwards displayed that.

If we end up with a bunch of regular shinobi scaling to FTL speed, then it's going to go against the narrative.

I’ve always found this particular technique absurd
it can transport objects at the speed of light but not Ninjas who are more study?
this is more of a Justu drawback than a physical effect

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I’ve always found this particular technique absurd
it can transport objects at the speed of light but not Ninjas who are more study?
this is more of a Justu drawback than a physical effect

exactly it can have properties that can harm the user

if it was genuinely ONLY because of high speed WHY did it start hurting tsunade immediately? (before transfer)
and tsunade isnt even scaled to raikages or madaras speed in the wiki so why the hell would this go against the higher ups getting it lol

 

[Samlex1234]

I'm wary of these upgrades without seeing how it will all shake out yet. We know that typically most characters can't endure moving at lightspeed, let alone FTL. Only the likes of the 3rd and 4th Raikage, and Tsunade who had to heal afterwards displayed that.

If we end up with a bunch of regular shinobi scaling to FTL speed, then it's going to go against the narrative.

No regular shinobi is scaling to FTL from this.
Also, transportation across an entire continent at the speed of light is vastly different from combat speed or reaction speed. This distinction is why we have separate classifications and descriptions on the wiki.
A good analogy though not perfect would be imagining Usain Bolt sprinting at his top speed throughout a marathon. He clearly lacks the durability or endurance to sustain such speed for that distance.

Combat Speed
Travel Speed
Reaction Speed

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

To make it worse

as kaydee said, due to the properties it probably refers to LS transfer being an issue WITHIN the jutsu

cuz if you remember, they're not physically yeeted across the continent
they are transforming their bodies into light and sent by a jutsu made for objects

if it was genuinely ONLY because of high speed WHY did it start hurting tsunade immediately? (before transfer)

this makes more sense of it due to us seeing it hurting humans before they even started to teleport
so the only logical conclusion to draw is that using sth with unique properties other than speed made for object transfer is a more sound answer for why that happened

 

[Iabihs]

I dont think it matters too much if were only upgrading a few people that are 100% above tsunade, such as Juubito or the Ten Tails....
Speaking of that, we should get on that, who are we upgrading?

Ten Tails , Juubito , 8 Tails, Mastered Kcm 2 naruto , Minato in kcm 2 atleast , Ems Sasuke, 1 Rinnegan Madara pre juubi, who else?

 

[Nierre]

correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the characters that'll scale due to this, scale higher than the Raikage anyway?

 

[Damage3245]

To make it worse

as kaydee said, due to the properties it probably refers to LS transfer being an issue WITHIN the jutsu

cuz if you remember, they're not physically yeeted across the continent
they are transforming their bodies into light and sent by a jutsu made for objects

this makes more sense of it due to us seeing it hurting humans before they even started to teleport
so the only logical conclusion to draw is that using sth with unique properties other than speed made for object transfer is a more sound answer for why that happened

Except Mabui states that it is due to the speed being so fast, and the databook says "the high-speed transmission of human beings is possible, but since the body can't endure the overly fast movement, the target of the technique needs a sturdy body."

It's repeatedly said that the speed is the issue. But if the scaling chain doesn't end up touching any characters that may be a problem for this, it may not matter.

 

[Iabihs]

lets figure out the scaling chain first

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the characters that'll scale due to this, scale higher than the Raikage anyway?

yes, everyone who's getting this as of now physically bodies the raikage

Except Mabui states that it is due to the speed being so fast, and the databook says "the high-speed transmission of human beings is possible, but since the body can't endure the overly fast movement, the target of the technique needs a sturdy body."

It's repeatedly said that the speed is the issue. But if the scaling chain doesn't end up touching any characters that may be a problem for this, it may not matter.

you do realise I am not ignoring that? if it was ONLY speeds that cause this issue then other contradictions would not exist, you can't ignore them in favour of this, in cases like these we go with the interpretation that does not contradict anything aka such high speed movement in THAT light state requires a strong body, rather than literal physical light speed movement because that does not happen in the jutsu to begin with

you cant apply anti feats in a light like state transmission to anti feats of the physical body movement if it did not even happen


also again the overly fast movement across countries is travel speed it doesnt hurt anyone getting reaction or combat
you also have not shown me any scaling chains to connect tsunade whos MHS+ in the wiki

 

[Nierre]

We have Haku who moves SoL through Mirrors and he's way, WAY weaker than the Raikage so I don't really think that's a good debunk either tbh.

 

[Damage3245]

you also have not shown me any scaling chains to connect tsunade whos MHS+ in the wiki

I don't want to give out any ideas on that. I'll just see what the exact proposal is.

 

[Nierre]

Yeah since this has been accepted, you should make a new thread with listing all the characters who would scale to this.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I don't want to give out any ideas on that. I'll just see what the exact proposal is.

in that case this would be irrelevant to my crt because this is to upgrade naruto sasuke juubi juubito and gyukis attack speed

Yeah since this has been accepted, you should make a new thread with listing all the characters who would scale to this.

very wel, I'll apply the changes to the bolded character since this is accepted and make a new one after this to expand the chain

 

[KaydeeX]

very wel, I'll apply the changes to the bolded character since this is accepted and make a new one after this to expand the chain

no need to do that, unless you wanna edit twice
just create another crt for everyone who scales