A Review of the speed of Naruto (Verse)

[Suigetsuhyugs]

1. Sasuke had no way of knowing that
2. My statement is from the PoV of Sasuke. He wouldn't develop a jutsu as his trump card if its speed was something a 3T sharingan can track anyways. For all he knows, Itachi could have simply substituted away from the jutsu

Itachi was capable of tracking just not capable of reacting with body movement, so he blocked it with Susanoo.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

1. Sasuke had no way of knowing that
2. My statement is from the PoV of Sasuke. He wouldn't develop a jutsu as his trump card if its speed was something a 3T sharingan can track anyways. For all he knows, Itachi could have simply substituted away from the jutsu

tracking and using ninjutsu to do sth about it falls under reactions tho

Look at the panels again, the Bijuudamas barely travelled any distance from where they're shown flying at the Juubi to when the Juubi's Bijuudama intercepts them

Why is this objective?

yeah now prove using any line of logic that the beam needs to be comparable speeds other than interception because two attacks of different speeds can collide


because lets use mouth spitting as an analogy, the energy exerted for spitting one powerful blow cant be applied multiple times in one go, you'd need to recharge

 

[Damage3245]

I think we should see what some staff members make of this.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

yeah now prove using any line of logic that the beam needs to be comparable speeds other than interception because two attacks of different speeds can collide

Not addressing what I said at all. I don't think I'm gonna continue this point because it's getting pretty circular and I've made my point pretty clear.

because lets use mouth spitting as an analogy, the energy exerted for spitting one powerful blow cant be applied multiple times in one go, you'd need to recharge

That's not comparable to a ninjutsu. In this case it's portrayed more like a gun rapid firing, which doesn't reduce in speed with multiple shots.

 

[Godernet]

no lol
mirror to mirror = light speed
mirror to coming out physically for humans = mhs(scaling off of kakashi)

sasuke knowing where haku is headed, his directions and placements (ftl perception)
sasuke jumping and taking the hit = mhs feat

I don't agree with this but I'm not gonna get into why here and save it for a potential future CRT

I'll go along with this logic for now tho.

also iirc lee was fatigued during the sound speed anti feat

after the lotus yeah but the Sound Ninja had already seen his top Weighted speed by that point and still thought their jutsu was better because it was "Supersonic"

he did not think that
heck sasuke successfully took the hit so haku being massively above to the point of 25% of his speed being enough is just fanfiction
also even if he did think that as a ninja it would be in his best interest to not underestimate someone with growing power and ensure greater energy exertion that gives more security to his victory

He did hold back and he did want to end the fight immediately which is why he went to attack directly.

And we know there's a big gap in speed between LoW Sasuke and people like Haku, Zabuza, and Kakashi as the series goes on.

its stated LITERAL light speed, so its objectively light speed that ruins your "but its possible to " its stated possible to because it takes him to new heights not that his speed fluctuates during mirror reflection

No, it doesn't

because all that statement does is double down on the fact that Haku's mirrors can move at literal light speed, which no one is arguing against.

that statement isn't saying that the Mirrors are always light speed, and can't be any slower than that.

The same databook says that it's possible if anything implies that's not always the case.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

after the lotus yeah but the Sound Ninja had already seen his top Weighted speed by that point and still thought their jutsu was better because it was "Supersonic"

I brought this up as a reason why the P1 characters' speeds were being highballed but I got rejected

Also the raws say speed of sound not supersonic but I digress

 

[Godernet]

Change in tragectory always changes speed. he is no more moving through reflection if his tragectory changes since that's how reflection works, so Sasuke intercepts Haku's base speed.

sure

First I said words that came directly from the manga, you are making assumptions.

what part of that was an assumption

He started to fight Lee before he activates the sharingan, because he was unable to see his speed he activated the sharingan with the conviction it was a genjutsu or ninjutsu, when the sharingan didn't detect genjutsu or ninjutsu he knew it was taijutsu, but his body was incapable of reacting

I don't think you're acknowledging how big of a gap a 900,000 times difference in perception is to movement.

imagine if Sasuke was perceiving Lee like this video



you'd also have to argue Sasuke has the comprehension speed of a newborn turtle which we know just isnt the case

 

[MinatoSparkle]

I think it should be mentioned that Pre-Sharingan Sasuke was slightly perceiving Haku's movements and Base Guy perception blitzed this Sasuke

 

[Godernet]

I think it should be mentioned that Pre-Sharingan Sasuke was slightly perceiving Haku's movements and Base Guy perception blitzed this Sasuke

Not to mention, Base Guy ~ Kakashi ~< Itachi

who an older Sasuke intended Kirin for, a potentially Light Speed Jutsu.

A jutsu that was so "unavoidable" in his eyes, that he fully believed it could beat a better Sharingan user than his younger self.

 

[Damage3245]

I think it should be mentioned that Pre-Sharingan Sasuke was slightly perceiving Haku's movements and Base Guy perception blitzed this Sasuke

Mmm. I think we should defer the Haku talk a bit which would be more suitable for the upcoming Part 1 speed revisions.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Outlier Argument

I believe that even if we grant the Mifune section above, the scaling for Gyuki / Killer B still falls under the guidelines for an Outlier.

Yes. I think it's a significantly large jump; Killer B in his Biju mode was only reaching Sub-Relativistic before this new scaling. The next highest calc from comparable characters is the current Mach 7981 Kakashi calc, which is multiplied by 5 for some characters through Might Guy's Eight Gates scaling.

Yes. This is an exceptional incident; Killer B's Biju Bombs are never depicted this fast in any other scenes.

Bee is able to attack in tandem with KCM Naruto who scales to Jonin Minato who's Light Speed (木ノ葉の黄色い閃光●絶対不可避の光速の刃、戦場にて煌々と輝きを放つ術・技。呟きその名は、四代目火影のかつての通り名だ。) and fought Itachi who possesses Light Speed ninjutsu (水より生ぜじ光速の弾——死角より出で 敵を挟らん!!).

Yes. There is no explanation or justification so far as I'm aware for why Killer B's Biju Bombs would be this fast.

Bijuudamas are much faster than the user as they're Susanoo Arrow level (BSM Naruto and SEMS Sasuke are relative in combat speed, so their Bijuudama/Susanoo Arrow travelling at the same speed means they're comparable speed amps), BM Bee~>V2 Bee>>V1 Bee who's rated as likely Sub-Relativistic. AKA Bee's Bijuudamas>>BM Bee~>V2 Bee>>V1 Bee~/>likely 4.6% the SoL. That's a decent explanation. There's also V2 Bee hitting Kisame before he can react, while Kisame slightly reacted to 6th Gate Guy who's >>>1st Gate Guy~4.6% the SoL.

While those chains are of course not enough on their own to prove Bee's Bijuudamas are FTL, they are a justification for how it could be the case.

Yes. As explained by the above points, virtually nobody else possesses feats or statements on this level that are currently accepted. In fact characters don't properly exhibit FTL combat speed until Six Paths Sage Naruto who is just a bit above baseline FTL.

Already provided two other statements. They're not accepted, but they exist, and as this is a CRT about Light Speed Naruto, they are quite pertinent and should be discussed when talking about if LS Mifune and Bee scaling to him are outliers.

I'd also like to note that a literal no name ninja possesses a Light Speed knock off of Raikiri. You can also argue that the Water Gun jutsu is light speed but that's more contentious as the kanji isn't literal.
閃光が如き疾さで放ついって「一滴」必殺の水撃弾!!
"With a swiftness like that of a flash of light, it unleashes a single, lethal water bullet!"

 

[Suigetsuhyugs]

sure

what part of that was an assumption

That he wasn't able to see Lee's movements

I don't think you're acknowledging how big of a gap a 900,000 times difference in perception is to movement.

imagine if Sasuke was perceiving Lee like this video



you'd also have to argue Sasuke has the comprehension speed of a newborn turtle which we know just isnt the case

His perception increases because of Sharingan, Sasuke's base without sharingan still has perception comparable to his own speed. Before he activates sharingan he couldn't even see Lee's movements but after activating he could see them just not react.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Not to mention, Base Guy ~ Kakashi ~< Itachi

who an older Sasuke intended Kirin for, a potentially Light Speed Jutsu.

A jutsu that was so "unavoidable" in his eyes, that he fully believed it could beat a better Sharingan user than his younger self.

I wouldn't really say Kakashi<~Itachi but I get your point

Mmm. I think we should defer the Haku talk a bit which would be more suitable for the upcoming Part 1 speed revisions.

I thought the P1 speed revisions were already done

 

[LordTracer]

Mmm. I think we should defer the Haku talk a bit which would be more suitable for the upcoming Part 1 speed revisions.

I think you mean Part II, the Part I speed revisions already happened

 

[Damage3245]

I think you mean Part II, the Part I speed revisions already happened

Hmm, I thought there were more plans on the works. Okay.

 

[Nierre]

The Speed of Biju Bombs

Consequently to the previous threads, the speed of the Juubi's own Biju Bombs - being significantly more powerful than Gyuki's Biju Bombs - would also be faster than light, and yet there are scenes that would strongly indicate against that assumption.

In Chapter 613, the Juubi undergoes its evolution into its second form and begins spammning long-range Biju Bombs to rain down in distant locations. The last of these is aimed for the Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters located in the vicinity of Kumogakure. We then get an extensive sequence where the sensory shinobi realize the target of the Biju Bomb, relay it to the others, they discuss the situation and then Shikaku has the telepathic ninja relay his plan to beat the Juubi to everyone on the battlefield before the Biju Bomb lands. We can then see the explosion in the distance and Madara remarking "Finally got them."

For reference, the area where the Juubi is - where the alliance is fighting it - is indicated by the red arrow. The Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters is highlighted by a purple arrow.

Our currently accepted value approximating that distance is around 700 kilometers, and even with other methods it is at-most around a couple thousand kilometers.

Remember that lightspeed means a projectile could circle the Earth approximately 7.5 times in one second.

But here we have multiple characters conversing each other, being shown in contemplation, coming up with ideas... and then to end it off, Madara remarks that they 'finally' got them after waiting for the Biju Bomb to land. This is not the kind of remark one would make if he was just waiting for a hundredth of a second. There is significant travel time for that amount of distance.

While it's a common convention that "Talking is a Free Action" and characters can execute high-speed maneuvers while still speaking normally, this goes well beyond just a line or two. These are full-blown conversations that don't make any sense if an FTL projectile is crossing so short a distance.

The much stronger Juubi's Biju Bomb being this slow should call into question Gyuki's Biju Bomb being assumed to be so fast.

Disagree with this argument. I and everyone here have already talked extensively on this point, but using conversation as an argument is in pretty poor taste. I share the same opinions as Clover and Saqphire:

Furthermore, using dialogue to cap a certain speed has never and will never be consistent with an established speed narrative, that's why talking has been universally decided as a free action in literally every verse that's beyond Mach 1, otherwise if we use talking as a counterpoint, Naruto wouldn't even reach Transonic as he'd be too fast to communicate what he'd be saying with sound/his tongue otherwise, which is everything but narratively consistent.

I just want to say that there's no way that characters talking to each other should be an anti-feat for anything. This is the Flash talking to Superman all over again

Beyond that I got nothing to comment

What the statement in the databook is saying is that Mifune (who uses Iaido, a high-speed form of swordsmanship that is about drawing one's blade quickly and slashing), is slashing his sword at lightspeed and and releasing a flying slash at his enemy.

Even if we took the statement literally and assumed there was no databook hyperbole going on here, we could say that Mifune's sword stroke was executed at the speed of light, but the projectile sword-slash that is released by him is not necessarily travelling the quickly. The databook makes no actual mention of Mifune's flying slash being what is lightspeed.

Although Mifune's technique Issen, can be translated as Flash, or Beam of Light, this again doesn't mean the projectile has to be lightspeed. It's not a literal beam of light he's releasing, but a projectile of chakra released from his sword-swing. Same as all the other regular samurai who coat their blades in chakra and release slashes of chakra that Sasuke is able to react extremely casually to.

TBH I disagree with the beam not being the same speed of the slash of the sword. I haven't seen reason to assume that it'd be any slower, and the story nor does the databook say otherwise. We've never assumed Itachi's combat speed is faster than his shurikens, nor do we assume Sasuke's fireballs are faster than himself, unless specifically stated otherwise or feats say otherwise, we assume they are the same speed so I don't really get what the argument is here.

Not to mention that describing someone's attack as a "speed of light sword stroke" can easily be a figurative description rather than an absolutely literal measurement of their speed. It conveys the meaning that Mifune's attack is fast which is all that matters

Disagree with it being figurative. It's as literal as it can get in my eyes.

Assuming we disregard all that though and still insist that it is Mifune's flying slash that is lightspeed, the original argument depends on the assumption that all of the attacks were launched at the exact same time. There is no chance that the shinobi and Gyuki were able to coordinate their moves that precisely; even a microsecond of time between the different jutsu starting to move would be relevant when we're talking about matters of lightspeed. It seems far more likely to me that Kishimoto just wanted a scene of several characters through ranged attacks together and didn't put any serious thought into it of them all having to be exactly the same speed, and that the minimum speed they'd need to travel is lightspeed.

I think that's a fair argument to make, whether or not they actually attacked in tandem. I'm neutral leaning on agreeing on this but as I said above, I still disagree with assuming the actual chakra beam isn't the same speed of his initial strike.

Outlier Argument

I believe that even if we grant the Mifune section above, the scaling for Gyuki / Killer B still falls under the guidelines for an Outlier.


Yes. I think it's a significantly large jump; Killer B in his Biju mode was only reaching Sub-Relativistic before this new scaling. The next highest calc from comparable characters is the current Mach 7981 Kakashi calc, which is multiplied by 5 for some characters through Might Guy's Eight Gates scaling.


Yes. This is an exceptional incident; Killer B's Biju Bombs are never depicted this fast in any other scenes.


Yes. There is no explanation or justification so far as I'm aware for why Killer B's Biju Bombs would be this fast.


Yes. As explained by the above points, virtually nobody else possesses feats or statements on this level that are currently accepted. In fact characters don't properly exhibit FTL combat speed until Six Paths Sage Naruto who is just a bit above baseline FTL.


Yes. As shown by the section on the Ten-Tails Biju Bomb up above, I believe that the scaling implications from accepting Killer B's Biju Bombs to be this fast would break the narrative of the work.

Neutral as well. Mostly because of @MinatoSparkle's arguments. I'm not too certain how outlier-y Bijuu Bombs being FTL are, considering I do know there's a statement in a databook for Minato being Lightspeed, but I don't actually know the counter arguments to this (Minato is not my forte), so I'll wait to see your counter argument to Sparkle's recent comment before voting on this.

Mabui's Ethereal Transmission Jutsu and the Raikage

One thing to remember is that in the general shinobi world, not counting freaks of the past like Madara and the Hashirama, the Raikage is the fastest ninja alive. Even in his base form he's regarded as super-fast, and in Lightning Chakra Mode Version 1 and Version 2, he becomes even faster. When using the Shunshin (Body Flicker Technique) in this state, he can even accomplish the nigh-impossible feat of evading Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan visual prowess and escaping being ignited with the Amaterasu technique which ignites at whatever Sasuke is looking at.

This is important because when it comes to Mabui's Ethereal Transmission jutsu - which can transport objects across vast distances at the speed of light - the main drawback for trying to use it on living human beings is that their bodies cannot cope with the the immense speed and they become torn apart. Only freaks like the 3rd Raikage who have unique extra-tough physiques can endure it, and Tsunade who has the ability to heal herself after travelling. This weakness is reiterated in the databook which mentions the movement being too fast unless the target has a sturdy body.

Why is this important? Because if shinobi regularly fought and moved at faster-than-light speeds, then the speed of Mabui's technique would be trivial to them. Even for the 4th Raikage, the fastest shinobi alive, Mabui states that it may be possible for the 4th Raikage to successfully travel by this technique but only because he's the 3rd Raikage's son. As his secretary, Mabui would know the 4th Raikage's abilities better than most and even she only conjectures that it may be possible for him, rather than acknowledging that he regularly moves beyond lightspeed anyway.

I disagree with this in theory due to @Shadowbokunohero and @DavidTPPM's reasons but seeing how everyone agrees that anyone less durable than Ay don't scale anyway, I can concede on this point since it's not really relevant here.



TL;DR: I disagree with everything but Gyuki's Bijuu Bomb scaling to Mifune's Issen, which I'm currently neutral leaning towards agreeing to. Didn't bother with the "Old Arguments" sections since it was deemed unnecessary. Mabui's Jutsu section should be in that category too because Ghost's thread doesn't even conflict with the Jutsu anyway as his thread tackles characters above Ay which everyone here seems to agree on, but whatever.

 

[Damage3245]

Disagree with this argument. I and everyone here have already talked extensively on this point, but using conversation as an argument is in pretty poor taste. I share the same opinions as Clover and Saqphire:

It's not just conversation. There are multiple things happening that show passage of time. Not to mention Madara indicating that he was waiting more than a fraction of a second for the Biju Bomb to land.

And if talking was always a free action where no time took place, then why was Kakashi interrupted during his conversation with Shikaku and had to stop talking to him on this page? He should have all the time in the world to keep leisurely chatting with Shikaku.

Neutral as well. Mostly because of @MinatoSparkle's arguments. I'm not too certain how outlier-y Bijuu Bombs being FTL are, considering I do know there's a statement in a databook for Minato being Lightspeed, but I don't actually know the counter arguments to this (Minato is not my forte), so I'll wait to see your counter argument to Sparkle's recent comment before voting on this.

The databook statement MinatoSparkle found for Minato just sounds like hype text relating to his title of "Yellow Flash". We also know that part of the reason why Minato is considered so insanely fast is his ability to teleport instantly. I don't buy the statement for Itachi either which Sparkle admits isn't literal.

The statement also describes Minato as being "absolutely unavoidable" and we know that isn't true.

I disagree with this in theory due to @Shadowbokunohero and @DavidTPPM's reasons but seeing how everyone agrees that anyone less durable than Ay don't scale anyway, I can concede on this point since it's not really relevant here.

Okay, fair enough.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

The databook statement MinatoSparkle found for Minato just sounds like hype text relating to his title of "Yellow Flash". We also know that part of the reason why Minato is considered so insanely fast is his ability to teleport instantly.

This really isn't a refutation at all. A majority of light speed attacks are meant to be hyping the character up as that's a very high level of speed. Also light speed =/= instant, so no the statement isn't referring to FTG.

I don't buy the statement for Itachi either which Sparkle admits isn't literal.

No? I was talking about the Water Gun statement. The Itachi statement uses the kanji for literal light speed.

The statement also describes Minato as being "absolutely unavoidable" and we know that isn't true.

Come on. Are we gonna disregard all statements that have some sort of hyperbole/flowery language in them and ignore the actual meat of what they're saying? There are countless NLFish statements that are attached to objective descriptions of techniques, that shouldn't be used as an indicator of whether this is valid or not.

 

[Damage3245]

No? I was talking about the Water Gun statement. The Itachi statement uses the kanji for literal light speed.

Oh, sorry, I mixed that up with the Water Gun statement, my bad.

Come on. Are we gonna disregard all statements that have some sort of hyperbole/flowery language in them and ignore the actual meat of what they're saying? There are countless NLFish statements that are attached to objective descriptions of techniques, that shouldn't be used as an indicator of whether this is valid or not.

If it suggests that Minato being lightspeed is hyperbolic, then yeah, I have doubts.

This really isn't a refutation at all. A majority of light speed attacks are meant to be hyping the character up as that's a very high level of speed. Also light speed =/= instant, so no the statement isn't referring to FTG.

Okay.

 

[Nierre]

It's not just conversation. There are multiple things happening that show passage of time. Not to mention Madara indicating that he was waiting more than a fraction of a second for the Biju Bomb to land.

I forgot to respond to this in the OP but to me it didn't seem like he was saying "Finally" because it was traveling some time to reach Shikaku and the rest, it seemed like he was just saying "Finally" because the Juubi was hard for him to control so he wasn't able to direct where he wanted it to attack. Madara and Obito said they wanted to show them despair, which they almost do when they kill Shikaku and the rest, though thanks to the wills of Shikamaru and the Hyuga's efforts they Alliance is able to keep fighting. Hell, Madara says that he wanted to get rid of them before they started their speeches but because the Juubi is hard to control he wasn't able to. So in my eyes, it's not because it took a while due to it's speed, but because of how hard it was for him and Obito to control it.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

Oh, sorry, I mixed that up with the Water Gun statement, my bad.

If it suggests that Minato being lightspeed is hyperbolic, then yeah, I have doubts.

You seem to be viewing the statement with the lens that it's hyperbolic rather than looking at the statement's isolated merit.

 

[Damage3245]

I forgot to respond to this in the OP but to me it didn't seem like he was saying "Finally" because it was traveling some time to reach Shikaku and the rest, it seemed like he was just saying "Finally" because the Juubi was hard for him to control so he wasn't able to direct where he wanted it to attack. Madara and Obito said they wanted to show them despair, which they almost do when they kill Shikaku and the rest, though thanks to the wills of Shikamaru and the Hyuga's efforts they Alliance is able to keep fighting. Hell, Madara says that he wanted to get rid of them before they started their speeches but because the Juubi is hard to control he wasn't able to. So in my eyes, it's not because it took a while due to it's speed, but because of how hard it was for him and Obito to control it.

Okay, I can't fault you for this because it is just a matter of interpretation but for me personally the whole scene with Shikaku and the others realizing they're the target of the attack is meant to indicate that there is some more-than-an-instant amount of time before the attack reaches them. Since this is just a matter of personal stance then I won't argue about it with you.

 

[Testarossa002]

Our currently accepted value approximating that distance is around 700 kilometers, and even with other methods it is at-most around a couple thousand kilometers.

Remember that lightspeed means a projectile could circle the Earth approximately 7.5 times in one second.

But here we have multiple characters conversing each other, being shown in contemplation, coming up with ideas... and then to end it off, Madara remarks that they 'finally' got them after waiting for the Biju Bomb to land. This is not the kind of remark one would make if he was just waiting for a hundredth of a second. There is significant travel time for that amount of distance.

This also works as an anti-feat for lightning speed as it'll take lightning less than 2 seconds to cover 700km
So, it's not only an anti-feat for light speed, it's also one for lightning speed
Ergo, Juubi bomb is sub lightning speed

 

[Damage3245]

You seem to be viewing the statement with the lens that it's hyperbolic rather than looking at the statement's isolated merit.

That's just how it reads to me; you're proposing that Minato be lightspeed which is described as being "absolutely unavoidable" but as a consequence Minato and several other characters will be FTL which contradicts a lightspeed Minato being unavoidable. I believe the statement is likely referring to Minato's usage of the Flying Thunder God technique and the lightspeed isn't literal but just him being really, really fast that technique. The statement does say "a technique that shines brilliantly on the battlefield".

This also works as an anti-feat for lightning speed as it'll take lightning less than 2 seconds to cover 700km
So, it's not only an anti-feat for light speed, it's also one for lightning speed
Ergo, Juubi bomb is sub lightning speed

Yeah; I don't have a problem with that.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

I think that's a fair argument to make, whether or not they actually attacked in tandem. I'm neutral leaning on agreeing on this but as I said above, I still disagree with assuming the actual chakra beam isn't the same speed of his initial strike.

We still have Kn0 temari being faster than the issen while starting after mifune from the last thread (so people would still get scaling)

and given how the trio were stated to launch attacks simultaneously, I would believe this holds the same narrative portrayal of a unison attack, the differences are negligible (thats the point of a unison attack)

 

[Testarossa002]

Yeah; I don't have a problem with that.

Great
It should be added in the OP then
We can't have characters being MHS+ on the profiles while FTL is rejected even though they share the same anti-feat

 

[Damage3245]

Great
It should be added in the OP then
We can't have characters being MHS+ on the profiles while FTL is rejected even though they share the same anti-feat

Gotta work through the verse step-by-step. One thread at a time.

 

[Nierre]

Yeah; I don't have a problem with that.

 

[MinatoSparkle]

That's just how it reads to me; you're proposing that Minato be lightspeed which is described as being "absolutely unavoidable" but as a consequence Minato and several other characters will be FTL which contradicts a lightspeed Minato being unavoidable.

1. Databooks cover information during a certain timeframe of the manga (example being that Obito is stated to be Madara multiple times in the 3rd databook), so given that at the time, there were no known LS/FTL individuals in the 3rd war, I don't think this is the contradiction you think it is

2. You're just repeating a point that I already responded to. A flowery description doesn't overturn the part of a statement that's written literally. If the intention was for the statement to not be taken seriously, Kishimoto could've easily written a simile like he has for so many others.

I believe the statement is likely referring to Minato's usage of the Flying Thunder God technique and the lightspeed isn't literal but just him being really, really fast that technique. The statement does say "a technique that shines brilliantly on the battlefield".

This could just be referring to his common tactic of attacking in tandem with his FTG (which he's implied to have done dozens of times in a row in battle). The statement does call the "blade" unavoidable after all, and FTG itself is not a blade nor something that needs to be avoided; just the attack following it.

 

[Testarossa002]

You still haven't addressed ETJ (already LS. Except you think it's not) taking an almost similar time (both manga and anime agree) to travel to travel battlefield as the Juubi bomb to the Alliance HQ. Even though the latter was over a longer distance
Same ETJ that travelled nigh-instantly to Darui's location
Almost as if the author can take liberties when it comes to talking during action scenes

 

[Damage3245]

You still haven't addressed ETJ (already LS. Except you think it's not) taking an almost similar time (both manga and anime agree) to travel to travel battlefield as the Juubi bomb to the Alliance HQ. Even though the latter was over a longer distance
Same ETJ that travelled nigh-instantly to Darui's location
Almost as if the author can take liberties when it comes to talking during action scenes

I just don't think the scenes were perfectly sequential; it's what makes the most sense to me when reading the chapter. There was clearly some jumping around going on where Shikaku had a conversation with Genma, informing him to get set up with the Mizukage, then Tsunade and Ay were setup to go be transported. Meanwhile Genma and company had to be prepared for the moment Tsunade arrived on the battlefield.

I'm not saying the entire manga is without flaws when it comes to writing/pacing or that everyone is always speaking words in perfectly realistic real time. I'm saying there's more going on in the scene than just a lot of words being spoken that gives the distinct impression that time is passing.

If you disagree with me on that, then fine, we read the manga in different ways but we'd just be going in circles discussing it.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Looking at the OP again. Don't really agree with the Outlier argument but my opinion on the Juubi's Biju Bomb portion and Ethereal Transmission technique haven't changed.

 

[Damage3245]

Looking at the OP again. Don't really agree with the Outlier argument but my opinion on the Juubi's Biju Bomb portion and Ethereal Transmission technique haven't changed.

Okay, fair enough. Can I take that as an agreement with the general proposal?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

Okay, fair enough. Can I take that as an agreement with the general proposal?

Yes.

 

[Leloutchis134]

I think that it's time that we had a serious re-evaluation about the speed of the Naruto verse.

I don't bring up this topic lightly and I know that some of what I'll have to see in this OP will be seen as controverisal but certain recent threads have necessitated that this topic be at least brought up for discussion.

To give some background, recently in this revision thread, it was proposed and accepted that the attacks of multiple Kurama-enhanced characters including Gyuki, the Eight-Tails' Biju Bomb, should scale above Mifune's Issen technique which is accepted on the wiki as being lightspeed, which makes these characters' attacks but most importantly the Biju Bomb be treated as FTL.

This has far-reaching consequences with another follow-up revision thread here being made to upgrade a substantial portion of the Naruto cast to having FTL combat speed.

It is my view that for this to be the acceptable, you'd have to ignore a significant number of contradictions.

The Speed of Biju Bombs

Consequently to the previous threads, the speed of the Juubi's own Biju Bombs - being significantly more powerful than Gyuki's Biju Bombs - would also be faster than light, and yet there are scenes that would strongly indicate against that assumption.

In Chapter 613, the Juubi undergoes its evolution into its second form and begins spammning long-range Biju Bombs to rain down in distant locations. The last of these is aimed for the Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters located in the vicinity of Kumogakure. We then get an extensive sequence where the sensory shinobi realize the target of the Biju Bomb, relay it to the others, they discuss the situation and then Shikaku has the telepathic ninja relay his plan to beat the Juubi to everyone on the battlefield before the Biju Bomb lands. We can then see the explosion in the distance and Madara remarking "Finally got them."

For reference, the area where the Juubi is - where the alliance is fighting it - is indicated by the red arrow. The Allied Shinobi Forces' Headquarters is highlighted by a purple arrow.

Our currently accepted value approximating that distance is around 700 kilometers, and even with other methods it is at-most around a couple thousand kilometers.

Remember that lightspeed means a projectile could circle the Earth approximately 7.5 times in one second.

But here we have multiple characters conversing each other, being shown in contemplation, coming up with ideas... and then to end it off, Madara remarks that they 'finally' got them after waiting for the Biju Bomb to land. This is not the kind of remark one would make if he was just waiting for a hundredth of a second. There is significant travel time for that amount of distance.

While it's a common convention that "Talking is a Free Action" and characters can execute high-speed maneuvers while still speaking normally, this goes well beyond just a line or two. These are full-blown conversations that don't make any sense if an FTL projectile is crossing so short a distance.

The much stronger Juubi's Biju Bomb being this slow should call into question Gyuki's Biju Bomb being assumed to be so fast.

Mifune's Issen

There is room for doubt as to whether or not Mifune's technique itself is a lightspeed projectile. The only basis for Mifune's technique being as fast as it is comes not from the manga itself, from a secondary source, the databook, which is only applied for the Naruto-verse on a case-by-case basis due to some discrepancies and hyperbolic statements such as Sasuke's power exceeding even that of the Akatsuki.



This has been translated by @Arc7Kuroi as:



What the statement in the databook is saying is that Mifune (who uses Iaido, a high-speed form of swordsmanship that is about drawing one's blade quickly and slashing), is slashing his sword at lightspeed and and releasing a flying slash at his enemy.

Even if we took the statement literally and assumed there was no databook hyperbole going on here, we could say that Mifune's sword stroke was executed at the speed of light, but the projectile sword-slash that is released by him is not necessarily travelling the quickly. The databook makes no actual mention of Mifune's flying slash being what is lightspeed.

Although Mifune's technique Issen, can be translated as Flash, or Beam of Light, this again doesn't mean the projectile has to be lightspeed. It's not a literal beam of light he's releasing, but a projectile of chakra released from his sword-swing. Same as all the other regular samurai who coat their blades in chakra and release slashes of chakra that Sasuke is able to react extremely casually to.

Not to mention that describing someone's attack as a "speed of light sword stroke" can easily be a figurative description rather than an absolutely literal measurement of their speed. It conveys the meaning that Mifune's attack is fast which is all that matters.

Assuming we disregard all that though and still insist that it is Mifune's flying slash that is lightspeed, the original argument depends on the assumption that all of the attacks were launched at the exact same time. There is no chance that the shinobi and Gyuki were able to coordinate their moves that precisely; even a microsecond of time between the different jutsu starting to move would be relevant when we're talking about matters of lightspeed. It seems far more likely to me that Kishimoto just wanted a scene of several characters through ranged attacks together and didn't put any serious thought into it of them all having to be exactly the same speed, and that the minimum speed they'd need to travel is lightspeed.

Outlier Argument

I believe that even if we grant the Mifune section above, the scaling for Gyuki / Killer B still falls under the guidelines for an Outlier.



Yes. I think it's a significantly large jump; Killer B in his Biju mode was only reaching Sub-Relativistic before this new scaling. The next highest calc from comparable characters is the current Mach 7981 Kakashi calc, which is multiplied by 5 for some characters through Might Guy's Eight Gates scaling.



Yes. This is an exceptional incident; Killer B's Biju Bombs are never depicted this fast in any other scenes.



Yes. There is no explanation or justification so far as I'm aware for why Killer B's Biju Bombs would be this fast.



Yes. As explained by the above points, virtually nobody else possesses feats or statements on this level that are currently accepted. In fact characters don't properly exhibit FTL combat speed until Six Paths Sage Naruto who is just a bit above baseline FTL.



Yes. As shown by the section on the Ten-Tails Biju Bomb up above, I believe that the scaling implications from accepting Killer B's Biju Bombs to be this fast would break the narrative of the work.

Mabui's Ethereal Transmission Jutsu and the Raikage

One thing to remember is that in the general shinobi world, not counting freaks of the past like Madara and the Hashirama, the Raikage is the fastest ninja alive. Even in his base form he's regarded as super-fast, and in Lightning Chakra Mode Version 1 and Version 2, he becomes even faster. When using the Shunshin (Body Flicker Technique) in this state, he can even accomplish the nigh-impossible feat of evading Sasuke's Mangekyo Sharingan visual prowess and escaping being ignited with the Amaterasu technique which ignites at whatever Sasuke is looking at.

This is important because when it comes to Mabui's Ethereal Transmission jutsu - which can transport objects across vast distances at the speed of light - the main drawback for trying to use it on living human beings is that their bodies cannot cope with the the immense speed and they become torn apart. Only freaks like the 3rd Raikage who have unique extra-tough physiques can endure it, and Tsunade who has the ability to heal herself after travelling. This weakness is reiterated in the databook which mentions the movement being too fast unless the target has a sturdy body.

Why is this important? Because if shinobi regularly fought and moved at faster-than-light speeds, then the speed of Mabui's technique would be trivial to them. Even for the 4th Raikage, the fastest shinobi alive, Mabui states that it may be possible for the 4th Raikage to successfully travel by this technique but only because he's the 3rd Raikage's son. As his secretary, Mabui would know the 4th Raikage's abilities better than most and even she only conjectures that it may be possible for him, rather than acknowledging that he regularly moves beyond lightspeed anyway.

Old Arguments

I put the old arguments from the previous version of the OP in a spoiler section as they're unnecessary now.

Spoiler: Old Arguments

Sasuke's Kirin and Lightning Jutsu

There's more to take into consideration for the verse as a whole than just the Biju Bombs. A very important technique in Sasuke's arsenal is Kirin.

Kirin has been gone over enough times in this wiki's history that I'm sure almost all Naruto fans here will be familiar with it but I'll provide an overview of it just to illustrate my point at how the speed ratings we've introduced contradict the narrative.

After exhausting his chakra on Orochimaru's substitution technique and several fireballs he fired into the sky, Sasuke reveals that he has one last technique up his sleeve despite his lack of chakra. He used the fireballs to create stormclouds above, and he's going to use them to create a technique that 'lasts an instant' and 'cannot be blocked or evaded'. Sasuke doesn't supply his own chakra to power or speed up the technique (he can't; he's out of it as confirmed by Itachi); he just takes advantage of the enormous ambigent atmospheric energy to launch a Lightning Style jutsu by harnessing natural lightning. As Sasuke himself explains, the jutsu guides the lightning striking down from the clouds at a target of Sasuke's choice; he merely directs natural lightning towards Itachi.

This is the reason why Kirin cannot be evaded, according to Zetsu. It's speed enabling it to cross the distance in 0.001 seconds.The currently accepted calculation for Kirin's speed is Mach 8089, using that timeframe from the manga.

If a Massively Hypersonic+ attack (several hundred Mach off of being Sub-Relativistic) travelling across hundreds of meters is considered to be nigh-undodgeable by not just one but two sources commenting on the speed of the technique making it impossible to evade then a few things about the way we rank speed ratings on the wiki don't make sense and directly contradict the information presented to us in the primary source of the series.

Characters like the Sannin (who Sasuke and Zetsu are more than familiar with) aren't going around fighting at FTL speed. Jutsu like the Biju Bomb (which multiple characters have blocked or evaded) doesn't make sense being FTL if an MHS+ technique is considered impossible to evade.

While it is true that Sasuke's knowledge is limited; for example he was unaware that Itachi possessed the Susano'o that he could use to block the Kirin, and he is unaware of the speed of the upper echelons like Minato who could use the Flying Thunder God technique to teleport out of the way, the statement still remains a strong barrier for the vast majority of shinobi.

Lightning speed jutsu is never considered to be a joke in the series. The databook for Kakuzu's False Darkness jutsu states "It is exceedingly difficult to dodge a lightning bolt flying at high speed." Even in the final arc of the series Madara employs realistic lightning bolts created through Yin Release to attack Naruto and Sasuke. Whilst though both Naruto and Sasuke quite capably react to it without issue, it shows that it is still a potential threat.

This is why it is very hard to accept that most characters are regularly fighting at FTL speeds, or that someone like Kakashi is over twice as fast as Kirin is. By Hidan scaling to Kakashi, and Shikamaru scaling to Hidan, we end up in a scenario where Shikamaru is actually 6.3 times faster than the attack that blitzes him. If we go with the current FTL proposals then we end up in a situation where Kakuzu is "FTL, with MHS+ attack speed", and an FTL Shikamaru was helpless as an MHS+ attack crossed dozens of meters to reach him. It is too contradictory.

Pain's Shinra Tensei

An important drawback to Pain's Shinra Tensei (Almighty Push) is that it has a minimum cooldown of 5 seconds between every usage of it.

The characters do not treat this as a huge amount of time within which to act:

Choza: "And if his recharging period is really brief... we can't afford to get close."

Random Shinobi: "Only five seconds, huh..."

Katsuyu: "The minimum interval between his jutsu is about five seconds. So you must target and strike during that window."
Naruto: "Five seconds, huh...."
Fukasaku: "Our only hope is to trap 'em within Genjutsu."

It's pretty telling a "brief" recharging period of five seconds poses difficulties for these characters. Kakashi, with Choji and Choza, have to execute a pretty elaborate strategy to have to get around Pains' brief period of vulnerability, and Fukasaku doesn't see much hope for Naruto without defeating Pain indirectly through Genjutsu.

All of this is to say that it seems extraordinarily inconsistent for us to treat these characters as being able to move, fight and react at FTL levels of speed if a timeframe like this in combat poses difficulties for them.

Other Anti-Feats

This is less important than the other feats and anti-feats brought up above, but early on in Shippuden, Chapter 277 - 278, there is a scene of several characters being depicted as slower than an explosion created by Deidara. Might Guy is on par with Kakashi and yet Neji was certain that they wouldn't be able to escape the blast wave before it hit them, with them only actually being saved by Kakashi using the risky Kamui jutsu to warp away the explosion. While this scene would show that Kakashi has the reactions to activate his jutsu before the explosion could hit him, the speed of the characters at risk of being hit by the explosion certainly shouldn't be in the Sub-Relativistic to FTL range.

Another thing to bear in mind is that blinding opponents with bright flashes of light is a legit strategy throughout the series with nobody reacting until after they've already been blinded. Such as;

• C using his Flash Pillar technique to blind Jugo and Sasuke, following it up with a Genjutsu.
• Kabuto using Sage Technique: White Extreme Attack to create a flash of light blinding Itachi and Sasuke. Both of them were incapacitated by the attack, but they made no move to stop the light before it hit them? It shouldn't have taken them so off-guard if they were faster than the light it emitted.
• C and several other Shinobi using the Flash Pillar technique to blind Obito, Madara and the Juubi with a bright flash of light. Madara and Obito are shown casually reacting to and commenting on the movements of hundreds of attacking shinobi including Sage Made Naruto and 5th Gates Guy and Rock Lee, but a flash of light from much further distance was able to blind and surprise them? If everyone was FTL, the blinding attack would've taken relatively much longer to reach them. Even more tellingly, the Juubi could casually react to and flick away Gyuki's Biju Bomb at point-blank range earlier, yet it gets caught out by a flash of light from much further away?

TL;DR

People should really read the full text above if they want to get involved in the thread, but here's the points above summarized;

• Faster Biju Bombs than Gyuki's are depicted to be significantly slower than FTL.
• Mifune's flying slash is probably not lightspeed to begin with.
• Multiple scaling inconsistencies arise if we try to make as many characters as possible FTL.
• Killer B's Biju Bombs being that fast fulfils all the guidelines for being an Outlier.
• The Raikage, one of the world's fastest shinobi, is implied to be slower than lightspeed, which also hard caps a good portion of the verse.

Conclusions

My proposal that follow from the observations I've made above are this:

• Remove the scaling that is based upon the assumption of a lightspeed flying slash, and Killer B's attack being comparable to it.

Trying to revise more of the verse at this time is outside the scope of this thread.

Votes

Agree: LordGriffin1000, Damage3245

Neutral:

Disagree:

I've just registered here so I don't know basic things like quotes or how to post scans, so I'm going to argue in a rudimentary way.

1- There are several representations throughout fiction where characters is talking in situations that would be impossible due to the speed at which something is supposed to be happening. Anyone who has watched The Flash will have seen many scenes where Flash is supposedly doing something very fast and his friends are talking normally between them and making jokes and even understanding what is happening in the Flash side and giving quicks commands, which would be impossible.

In the Naruto manga itself there is this type of situation, just remember Minato formulating a plan and talking to Kakashi, Gaara and Lee while Guy is at high speed going to attack Madara. If you use that as an argument then all stories with really fast characters are doomed, with only one or two escaping this, that's why "Talking is a free action" is a consensus.

There has already been a discussion thread about this and the majority voted not to use spoken words to measure timeframe and some voted for it to only be done in last resort, but this is not either case, we do not need this calculation to the verse and making that calculation would destroy the narrative.

As I don't know I'm being understood so I'll summarize: this argument should not be used/accepted because it is a narrative device used in all fiction, which is accepted by the majority in this wiki.

Regarding the interpretation of Madara's speech, it is clear that it has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the TBB, it is rubbed in the reader's face that he intended to destroy the HQ of the alliance from the beginning, he just had not too much control over the Juubi. To say that this was because of the delay in TBB speed requires frightening mental gymnastics, let's exercise our brains just a little, why would Madara say that to a long-range attack that he knows the speed of? Before this attack he had already carried out other attacks with the same speed, so the only acceptable interpretation is that he said this because he finally managed to achieve his goal, this is independent of the speed of the TBB.

I propose you (reader) calculate the speed at which TBB was, you have the distance: 700 KM. The time? You choose the time you believe would make sense for a character that's been planning for decades to say "finally got them", the time you believe would make sense to "multiple characters conversing each other, being shown in contemplation, coming up with ideas..." Good luck with that while trying to keep the narrative intact. hypersonic Naruto verse is real?


3- I really wanted to post some scans here of Bee's speed feats, but I don't know how to do that so I'll just mention a few events, Bee managed to react and save Ay in his fight against Minato, in the manga it's implied that Ay was travelling at high speed and Minato appears above him ready to hit him when Bee manages to be faster than the two of them, which is an incredible feat, since we're talking about the two supposedly fastest people in the world, after this scene we have another incredible feat which is to react and counter Minato's Hiraishin. Sasuke asking Karin to help him track Bee and tell him where he is because they weren't able to keep up with his movements, just in this fight Kishimoto showed how fast he wanted Bee to be, Sasuke EMS not being able to see Bee's attack even looking at him says a lot.


There are more feats in the war arc that puts him above Ay, but I don't want to expand on that point, what I want to say is that an FTL Killer Bee certainly doesn't would break the narrative of the verse, quite the contrary, Mifune SOL would break the narrative if those who are stronger than him were so much slower than him. For me it's strange that this Wiki accepts Mifune SOL and has so many characters that scale above him being so slow compared to him. Even if we argue that Mifune is only SOL with the Kurama amp, we will still have a narrative problem, Base Bee speed > Base Mifune speed, Mifune with Kurama amp speed > Bee V2 speed. I don't believe anyone here thinks Kurama can amplify so many people with his cloak too much more than Gyuki can amplify Bee.


4- The jutsu was created to transport objects, without specifying durability, but this is different for the human body, which makes it clear that the jutsu works differently when transporting human beings, this shows that there is a problem with the jutsu itself and not just the speed. You ignored this argument because it ends with your interpretation that Ay does not regularly move beyond lightspeed by Mabui. I know that Mabui and the databook says, but there's an interpretation that explains it: the human body during that jutsu doesn't support such speed. That doesn't mean that such speed can't be achieved by physical means or Chakra Manipulation.

There's the argument that the jutsu requires purely the physical characteristics of whoever is being teleported, not allowing the use of a physical amplifier during the jutsu, since we don't see Ay using his amp even though Mabui warned him that he could die, this means that with chakra amplifiers a ninja would be able to reach this speed without taking damage.

There's also the distance argument, a character weaker than Ay fighting at the speed of light doesn't have to travel the same distance Ay did, which means the damage to his body will be less.

To who thinks that Ay is a Cap: Ay can't be a cap because he was simply unharmed.

Explanation: an ordinary bike can reach a certain speed and brake 1-2 seconds later, but a bike specialized in reaching great speeds can reach the same speed and not break even after hours. But you're saying that an ordinary bike can't reach that speed based on the capacity of a specialized bike, which is complete nonsense. It is not a fair comparison to say that a bike cannot travel 1 cm at high speed just because we know that a specialized bike had slight tension when traveling 1000 km.

Going back to the shinobi world, we're talking about people who can instantly go in and out of such speed, being basically unharmed afterward with the Body Flicker Technique and the Body Replacement Technique. So what is the logic in placing Ay, who has traveled a great distance, as a cap for those who have not? I know that the distance Ay covered at the speed of light is tiny for there to be a big difference between that and the shinobi in combat, but as I said, in the shinobi world have special techniques that can meet the physical need to reach the speed of light, techniques that cannot be used during Mabui's jutsu. It doesn't make any sense to say that the character A wouldn't survive an attack because the character B who is stronger than him survived. This statement would only be correct if there was something that indicated that character B was close to death. Tsunade would be a better cap.

 

[Samlex1234]

I've just registered here so I don't know basic things like quotes or how to post scans, so I'm going to argue in a rudimentary way.

1- There are several representations throughout fiction where characters is talking in situations that would be impossible due to the speed at which something is supposed to be happening. Anyone who has watched The Flash will have seen many scenes where Flash is supposedly doing something very fast and his friends are talking normally between them and making jokes and even understanding what is happening in the Flash side and giving quicks commands, which would be impossible.

In the Naruto manga itself there is this type of situation, just remember Minato formulating a plan and talking to Kakashi, Gaara and Lee while Guy is at high speed going to attack Madara. If you use that as an argument then all stories with really fast characters are doomed, with only one or two escaping this, that's why "Talking is a free action" is a consensus.

There has already been a discussion thread about this and the majority voted not to use spoken words to measure timeframe and some voted for it to only be done in last resort, but this is not either case, we do not need this calculation to the verse and making that calculation would destroy the narrative.

As I don't know I'm being understood so I'll summarize: this argument should not be used/accepted because it is a narrative device used in all fiction, which is accepted by the majority in this wiki.

Regarding the interpretation of Madara's speech, it is clear that it has absolutely nothing to do with the speed of the TBB, it is rubbed in the reader's face that he intended to destroy the HQ of the alliance from the beginning, he just had not too much control over the Juubi. To say that this was because of the delay in TBB speed requires frightening mental gymnastics, let's exercise our brains just a little, why would Madara say that to a long-range attack that he knows the speed of? Before this attack he had already carried out other attacks with the same speed, so the only acceptable interpretation is that he said this because he finally managed to achieve his goal, this is independent of the speed of the TBB.

I propose you (reader) calculate the speed at which TBB was, you have the distance: 700 KM. The time? You choose the time you believe would make sense for a character that's been planning for decades to say "finally got them", the time you believe would make sense to "multiple characters conversing each other, being shown in contemplation, coming up with ideas..." Good luck with that while trying to keep the narrative intact. hypersonic Naruto verse is real?


3- I really wanted to post some scans here of Bee's speed feats, but I don't know how to do that so I'll just mention a few events, Bee managed to react and save Ay in his fight against Minato, in the manga it's implied that Ay was travelling at high speed and Minato appears above him ready to hit him when Bee manages to be faster than the two of them, which is an incredible feat, since we're talking about the two supposedly fastest people in the world, after this scene we have another incredible feat which is to react and counter Minato's Hiraishin. Sasuke asking Karin to help him track Bee and tell him where he is because they weren't able to keep up with his movements, just in this fight Kishimoto showed how fast he wanted Bee to be, Sasuke EMS not being able to see Bee's attack even looking at him says a lot.


There are more feats in the war arc that puts him above Ay, but I don't want to expand on that point, what I want to say is that an FTL Killer Bee certainly doesn't would break the narrative of the verse, quite the contrary, Mifune SOL would break the narrative if those who are stronger than him were so much slower than him. For me it's strange that this Wiki accepts Mifune SOL and has so many characters that scale above him being so slow compared to him. Even if we argue that Mifune is only SOL with the Kurama amp, we will still have a narrative problem, Base Bee speed > Base Mifune speed, Mifune with Kurama amp speed > Bee V2 speed. I don't believe anyone here thinks Kurama can amplify so many people with his cloak too much more than Gyuki can amplify Bee.


4- The jutsu was created to transport objects, without specifying durability, but this is different for the human body, which makes it clear that the jutsu works differently when transporting human beings, this shows that there is a problem with the jutsu itself and not just the speed. You ignored this argument because it ends with your interpretation that Ay does not regularly move beyond lightspeed by Mabui. I know that Mabui and the databook says, but there's an interpretation that explains it: the human body during that jutsu doesn't support such speed. That doesn't mean that such speed can't be achieved by physical means or Chakra Manipulation.

There's the argument that the jutsu requires purely the physical characteristics of whoever is being teleported, not allowing the use of a physical amplifier during the jutsu, since we don't see Ay using his amp even though Mabui warned him that he could die, this means that with chakra amplifiers a ninja would be able to reach this speed without taking damage.

There's also the distance argument, a character weaker than Ay fighting at the speed of light doesn't have to travel the same distance Ay did, which means the damage to his body will be less.

To who thinks that Ay is a Cap: Ay can't be a cap because he was simply unharmed.

Explanation: an ordinary bike can reach a certain speed and brake 1-2 seconds later, but a bike specialized in reaching great speeds can reach the same speed and not break even after hours. But you're saying that an ordinary bike can't reach that speed based on the capacity of a specialized bike, which is complete nonsense. It is not a fair comparison to say that a bike cannot travel 1 cm at high speed just because we know that a specialized bike had slight tension when traveling 1000 km.

Going back to the shinobi world, we're talking about people who can instantly go in and out of such speed, being basically unharmed afterward with the Body Flicker Technique and the Body Replacement Technique. So what is the logic in placing Ay, who has traveled a great distance, as a cap for those who have not? I know that the distance Ay covered at the speed of light is tiny for there to be a big difference between that and the shinobi in combat, but as I said, in the shinobi world have special techniques that can meet the physical need to reach the speed of light, techniques that cannot be used during Mabui's jutsu. It doesn't make any sense to say that the character A wouldn't survive an attack because the character B who is stronger than him survived. This statement would only be correct if there was something that indicated that character B was close to death. Tsunade would be a better cap.

Wowow this is long. I will take my time to read it later today.. Going to bed

 

[Testarossa002]

This is going to be my last post here unless I'm summoned
It isn't necessary for Damage to respond. Neither of us is going to budge anyways. This post is directed towards evaluating staffs as something for them to ponder on

---

In Chapter 613, the Juubi fired 4 bombs. The first 3 reached their "targets" rather quickly. These targets were just as far, if not farther than the Allied headquarters. In fact, the currently accepted calc for the first of the four puts the distance between the juubi and its target at 865.6852606 km (farther than the 700km quoted the OP). It's likely farther as the Allied HQ notes that even nations as far away as Suna/Konoha were within its range. This assertion was made after observing the first three bombs.
In all of these instances, the bombs took, at most, 2 panels to get to its target.
It would be highly inaccurate to base the overall speed of the bomb on the one instance where narrative focus was placed on the conversations between Shikaku and the Allied Forces, disregarding the bomb's actual speed in favor of its narrative importance. Especially when we've seen it cover farther distances instantly
In addition, if we're utilizing the actions taken during the bomb's flight to AHQ, over a minute would have passed. That will give us around High Hypersonic speed. A value less than a feat done by Kid Gaara. That is as much an outlier as the Deva Path cooldown timeframe. We can't take an outlier and use it as anti-feat against higher end feats. Unless the OP is proposing that everybody from KCM 2 to V2 Ay should be downgraded to High Hypersonic, this (anti)feat should be dismissed.

 

[Ghostimuscrime]

i genuinely do not see why we can’t chalk it up to something authors don’t think of

Kishi deadass didn’t care and just wanted to write a tension focused scene, something as minor as that should never override direct statements

 

[Damage3245]

i genuinely do not see why we can’t chalk it up to something authors don’t think of

Kishi deadass didn’t care and just wanted to write a tension focused scene, something as minor as that should never override direct statements

If we can always just write it off as 'the author doesn't care about speed' then the whole notion of powerscaling the speed to make Gyuki's attack FTL in the first place falls apart. Nothing is actually telling us it is that fast, you're judging if of the depiction of other things happening at the same time as his Biju Bomb being in flight.

 

[Damage3245]

In Chapter 613, the Juubi fired 4 bombs. The first 3 reached their "targets" rather quickly. These targets were just as far, if not farther than the Allied headquarters. In fact, the currently accepted calc for the first of the four puts the distance between the juubi and its target at 865.6852606 km (farther than the 700km quoted the OP).

That isn't for the first one. That looks like it is for the one that destroyed the Shinobi Alliance HQ.