Ultima_Reality

Unsure if you read OPM, but you were involved in the last thread where this topic was discussed. I'd appreciate your thoughts.

I hate to encumber you more but it seems you’re the only active one, who’s knowledge about this verse:

Please comment on this when you have time, it’s the only way it’ll actually get out of stasis

@Ultima_Reality May I have your input here, please?

I need your input on my CRT. As you can see I made a profile for Wiccan but he is a marvel tier 1. Antvasima already tagged you but it's been a while and I had no answer

Hi, can you take a look at my crt related to 3812?

Can you come here and state your ideas?

Sorry to disturb you.
Mind giving your opinion on this?

Hello. Apparently I need permission to post on this thread, so could I have some permission? The thread is very long and I'm not sure if something that's essentially the same as my take's been raised already, so here's mine, please tell me if it's good/I can post it. Theoretically you could give me permission without reading my take as well, but I would appreciate feedback:

/my take begins here
In my opinion, superiority to dimensionality as Ultima puts it is illogical and contradictory. For one example of how it can easily lead to contradictions, consider a character who is aspatial as opposed to being dimensional, and is inaccessibly more powerful than all dimensional beings and is superior to dimensionality as a whole in terms of power due to their aspatiality. This is something that is explicitly brought up by Ultima and is viewed as perfectly valid. Now take a character who is dimensional as opposed to being aspatial. This second character is treated as being inaccessibly superior to all aspatial beings in power due to their dimensionality. This in and of itself should not be a problem by Ultima's standards. To say otherwise is special pleading, as it is viewed to be perfectly fine for there to be "a character who has X characteristic, and is inaccessibly more powerful than all characters of Y characteristic due to having X characteristic (AKA the "mechanism attached to it that justifies its limitlessness" as Ultima called it)." Hopefully one can see the problem here. The two characters are completely contradictory, and there is no way of scaling the two if you take both descriptions as true. The first character would be stronger than the second character due to being stronger than all dimensional characters, with the second character being a dimensional character. However, the second character would also be stronger than the first character due to being stronger than all dimensional characters, with the first character being a dimensional character. This results in both characters being both inaccessibly stronger and inaccessibly weaker than the other. This is a contradiction.

From my understanding, this problem arises from allowing the arbitrarily decision of whether dimensionality or non-dimensionality is inaccessibly superior in power (or perhaps neither!) This is because one can arbitrarily decide that dimensionality is the more powerful end of the spectrum, whereas another can arbitrarily decide that non-dimensionality is more powerful. Allowing both decisions to be made inevitably allows for contradictions. These sorts of statements of "being superior to dimensionality" are essentially a category error (as mentioned by Ultima) of attributing "power" to "whether or not something is dimensional," an attribute which neither possesses power nor is it inherently connected to a certain level of power. The only solution is to either prohibit both of these arbitrary decisions (that is, to disregard both the idea of being "superior to dimensionality" and the idea of being "superior to non-dimensionality") or to prohibit one of them. The former must be implemented due to the latter being special pleading, as both arbitrary decisions are equally plausible. There is no logical reason to believe non-dimensionality is superior to dimensionality or vice versa other than "the author said so." Unfortunately, as demonstrated here, these would be author statements that inherently lead to contradictions and thus must be discarded.

/my take on RF transcendence begins here
The argument placed forth about reality-fiction vs quantitative superiority is likewise flawed. Reality-fiction differences are considered as being greater than dimensional differences due to the fact that the "RF-superior" (for lack of a better term) side views the "RF-inferior" side as literally being zero or nothing, and thus, no mathematical operation can possibly bring the "RF-inferior" side, which is zero, up to the level of the "RF-superior" side, which is non-zero. On the other hand, dimensional differences are said to simply be solved by infinite multiplication as a cube is said to be the sum of infinite squares. Since the former is such a large difference such that no mathematical operation can bridge the gap, whereas the latter can be bridged by simple infinite summation, the former ie RF transcendence must be treated as inherently greater than the latter ie dimensional transcendence, or so the argument goes. However, this line of argumentation causes a large problem considering a statement made later by Ultima, that being that "the square has 0 volume." Unlike what Ultima later said about a cube actually being the sum of infinite squares, a cube (which inherently has non-zero volume) CANNOT be formed from infinite squares (each of which is said to have zero volume). Ultima says in his post that "the principles behind operations on the empty set do not apply to it ["it" referring to the null set of the square]", but this just isn't true. It still holds for the null set of the square that multiplication of infinite zeros (zero volume) does not and cannot add up to a non-zero quantity (cube with non-zero volume.

Now, this doesn't NECESSARILY have to invalidate Ultima's reasoning. We can simply view a square as having infinitesimal volume as opposed to zero volume. Then Ultima's point of cubes actually being the sum of infinite squares could make sense. I would actually view this as optimal considering the fact that higher dimensional beings in fiction, even when they are infinitely superior, often do NOT view lower dimensional beings as literal zero/nothingness. Additionally, it allows for compactification as an explanation for higher dimensional beings lacking infinite superiority to lower dimensional beings (that being that these higher dimensional beings practically only have infinitesimal extension in their extra dimension, or something like that, thus making them comparable in power to lower dimensional beings and vice versa).

However, there is still a problem with the approach to reality-fiction transcendence. In a verse where RF transcendence happens with RF-inferior beings are treated as zero, the RF-inferior humans for example are literally zero/nothingness. However, in verses where there is no RF transcendence, the human baseline of the verse is NOT zero. With Ultima's approach, the "zero-humans" would be viewed as equivalent to the "nonzero humans." It's arbitrary and quite ridiculous from a certain point of view to equate humans that are literally zero/nothingness to humans that are NOT zero and actually exist within the verse. We can equate them with our own arbitrary standards for the sake of having a fun matchup, but we should acknowledge that it is just as valid to simply equate RF-superior humans that actually exist in one verse to humans from another verse that does not have any form of RF transcendence, since they are both beings that actually exist and are non-zero within the verse rather than being zero (if the RF-superior beings aren't literal zero compared to even more RF-superior beings, that is). Ideally, this should be signified on the actual tier of the profile. For example: "0 if you use the RF-inferior beings as a baseline, 7-B if you use the RF-superior beings as a baseline" I can understand if this is too much of a hassle, but we should affirm the fact that it is just as valid to use the most RF-superior beings within a verse as the baseline as it is to use the beings that the story focuses on as the baseline.

Additionally, if this approach to RF transcendence really was to be taken, the standards for what is considered to be RF transcendence need to be MUCH stricter, along with the burden of proof being to actually prove that the allegedly RF-superior beings literally view the allegedly RF-inferior beings as zero/nothingness.

/my take on RF transcendence and my entire take in general end here

What do you think?

Hello Ultima!

In The One Above All/The One Below All's profile, it says:

Simultaneously, as The One Below All, it is also the lowest point of all,[15] the infinite abyss that lies underneath creation[23] as its bedrock,[24] encompassing the Qlippoth that serve as the dark reflections of each Sefirot in the Mystery)

and Hulk's profile says:

Immortality (Types 1, 3 & 4. Will end up in the Below-Place after dying from which he can quickly revive himself through the Green Door should he choose to do so)

my question is, would him reviving through the green door grant him any other form of immortality like Type 5 or any extra ability?

I want you to help me look at this.

If a single multiverse has uncountably infinite universes (simplifying the multiverses structure)

And we later get confirmation that their are infinite multiverses each with uncountably infinite universes

If a character can significantly affect the infinite multiverses.

What tier would you say this is?

Could you help us with this, please?

Anyway: I really hate making long posts like this, but some things need to be explained and clarified

Click to expand...

Bro woke up and decided to tell the biggest lie of the 21st century.

Hello! Would you mind briefly discussing DC cosmology here?

Following the thread you made about the DC Cosmology, I wanted to discuss more about it and the so-called "worlds within worlds."

I personally believe that each earth/universe spaws new possibilities according to the decisions of each living being and there are hundreds to infinite possible futures and pasts within Hypertime, all forged in the World Forge although not all rises and those deemed too unstable were destroyed by Barbatos. The Orrery of Worlds was meant to be finite and contained to fifty-two universes, walled off from the Greater Omniverse until the Hands removed those boundaries and where once there were fifty-two universes, isolated from the Omniverse, there are now countless universes growing with new multiverse integrating into the Omniverse. It is very possible that the new universes are in fact all universes outside of the fifty-two like the 53rd universe for example.

Now there is Lex Luthor's statement that the idea of the Omniverse was a fabricated lie used by Pariah to disrupt the multiverse, but this statement was vague and was contradicted by Mister Terrific in Flashpoint Beyond, an event that took place after Dark Crisis on Infinite Earths.

What do you think?

Hello! Sorry to bother you, I know you are busy with the R>F thread, but I would really appreciate your input in this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/kingd...an-between-re-evaluation.160329/#post-6142153
Basically, a verse's Low 1-C value is getting re-evaluated after the new standards, and in the thread several users are saying that now a space (which is also called "hyperspace") that contains several 4-D structure, described and shown to be small compared to said space which is infinite in comparison, is not enough to get Low 1-C. All this seems extremely weird to me, especially considering that from what several users are saying it's basically impossible to get a quantitative superiority with the current standards. Your input to clarify this would be much appreciated!
Thanks in advance for the help and have a nice day!

I thought of an analogy for your tiering system argument:
Say there's a magical girl with tier 9 feats, and a small animal she can't harm because of some gimmick of her powers. Can we compare their strengths?

Two things:

1. I found a CRT that had this old blog of yours. Honestly, I think standard Strange should be "5-A to Low 1-A" even normally, not just with prep, mainly for the reasons in your sandbox, so if you ever want to revise Strange's tier sometime lemme know.

2. What would you say to making a Discord server of Marvel Comics revisions?

Yo ultima, (Ik you arent really advocating for a change but still keeping op title as this because i mean what did you think would happen)

So overall I think all points made are great, however an issue that I am having is where you would rank further hierarchical dimensions as weve currently defined them

So from what ive seen, it seems you are proposing a tier below 11c to account for qualitatively inferior layers, and that 1A and above would change from talk of higher infinity dimensions to qualitatively superior layers, and that all higher infinity dimensions would be a sort of "high 1b+.

However i dont think that what effectively acts as all of low 1a, 1a, high 1a, and 0 currently to be shoved into high 1b+. What i think should happen is these sorts of higher levels of infinities with regards to dimensions and such, like inaccessible as described with high 1a (and basically the whole range of either high 1b through 0 or low 1a through 0) to be its own tier.

I think that this topic has been delved into quite heavily in many fictional verses as we see with the many characters in this tiering range (even though many characters should be in different spots due to the issues you mentioned in your post. Not all of them change).

So i basically think there should be 14 tier ranges instead of the 12 now. A range below 11 as you said, all of the current ones, transfinite dimensional tier range (which is what the current low 1a to 0 is), and then the qualitatively superior range above this that you refer to in your post. Then 0 of course. Or maybe not its own entire section but you get the gist

Thoughts on this?

How does your proposed tiering system revision affect https://vsbattles.com/threads/delet...the-reality-fiction-interactions-page.144227/ and https://vsbattles.com/threads/removal-of-negative-theology-scaling.154924/?

Hi ultima, I've read this thread of yours and I don't have permission to comment but I have a question, what will happen to verses that get to outer using multiple r>f transcendences?

I read this thread, but I don't have permission to ask this as it is a staff discussion

But, where would Low 1-A be in all this? I haven't seen anything about it in the thread. Will it just be nuked?

Hey Ultima, this may seem like a bad time to send this given the revisions to the Tiering System going on, can you please check this Homestuck CRT out since I noticed you were on the supporters list https://vsbattles.com/threads/yet-a...for-base-form-and-low-1-a-depowered-le.147056

im just a random guy reading that interesting thread who want to point out my view
and after the back and forth, I can see 2 major thing

• first is your point, being we couldnt fill in non-reality into reality, making all mathematical/ dimensionality couldnt touch in untill 1A
• second is dt point, that, r>f didnt really have scans for it able to touch all dimensional either

So my suggestion is, just make them both not being able to interact until 1A, dimensional/ math and r>F will stay the same at the tiering system, however they will just get more property - in this case being not interact with eachother until either reach 1A, a l1c R>F will need 1A dimensional to interact with it, and a l1c dimensional will need 1A R>F to interact( unless theres feat prove otherwise)
In fact, dt said this

DontTalkDT said:

Technically, R>F and dimensional tiering should be on two separate power axis. Both being 5D and seeing a universe as fiction are being infinitely superior to it, but without feats neither should be able to affect the other. The 5D character can't punch something more real than it and the R>F character doesn't cover 5D space as part of the cosmology it transcends. I will say that, as usual, I consider assumptions that R>F should just be able to cover the dimensions because in real life dimensions don't matter for a writer as overextrapolation. It's too much enforcing our views on fictional verses.

Click to expand...

Ifit's not too much to ask, could you participate in my crtIf

Would your new tiering system revision upgrade Cthulhu Mythos in anyway?

Hello Ultima and sorry for bothering you. How would characters that interact with reality be viewed in this new system? Like Popeye can jump out of the cartoon and fight the writer. Of course that is a gag feat but generally such feats would be 1-A or just antifeat for reality?

hello i have question. I saw your thread regarding Qualitative and Quantitative superiority https://vsbattles.com/threads/on-th...es-of-the-tiering-system.159803/#post-6111278

1. So even the cosmology use berkeley cardinal, it would be still High 1-B+ ?
2. If The cosmology only has Qualitative superiority but no quantitative superiority, is it enough to reach 1-A ?

Thanks

Hi Ultima, I have a question about the thread revision issue you created. this


1. If a fiction applies type 4 multiverse in its story as a cosmological structure without further explanation, will this downgrade its tier from 1-A to High 1-B?

2.Just by having proof of qualitative superiority and that qualitative superiority only applies to 12 layers, is that enough to tier 1-A?

3. If there is a verse that has a transcendence of reality>fiction that is very clearly visible in the story of that verse, such as Demon King Daimao, The Unwritten, Marvel Comics, etc, will it have a big impact if this revision is accepted?

I assume a well defined or proper context Absolute Infinity would now be 1-A instead of high 1-A if the thread were to pass?

Wow.... I have question how would we give tier to a verse like The Unwritten, if all thing in your thread went through?
From recent The Unwritten Downgrade thread, the justification for Hierarchy of Stories is suggested to be changed, and there was one feat at the end of the "The Unwritten Apocalypse" where Wilson Taylor to save the world turn the whole "The Unwritten" into a Stories that he write, which made it that a Writer in The Unwritten could add an Hight 1B R>F hierarchy in their books.

Could you allow me permission to post here? I was asked by Lawyer to post on your thread, however it got transformed into a staff discussion, and content mods have no perms to grant rights.

Good evening, you seem to be one of the go-to staff members when it comes to potentially higher dimensional content. Would you help with evaluating this?

Excellent write-up on the perceived issues with the tierlist. As I am busy at the moment, I couldn't read it entirely (I stopped on Counterpoint 3) and I plan to resume my reading after I conclude some work. It really reminds me of several years ago when those questions were very much a concern for the nascent Liber Proeliis, a brazilian wiki I helped start - although in a much less complex situation and manner, of course - and makes me miss a bit on the discussions I had.

I really thank you for the insight you provided, and I hope that the discussion, if nothing else, promotes debate and reflection on the tiering. There is nothing I can add onto the discussion, so I'll just say I am in full agreement with the points made. What little contention there may be, as far as I read, were very minor.

outerversal neco-arc sama

Could you take a look?

Hi, are you interested in stopping by this thread? https://vsbattles.com/threads/jibaku-shounen-crt.159733/

Hello dear mod. If you have a single minute or two to spare, I need your rough stance on something regarding the tiering system standards that's been subject to controversy recently.

Spoiler

So there's been a lot of discussion regarding the standards for higher additional/higher dimensions. Through these two statements from DDT and yourself, it was established that overarching timelines aren't automatically Low 1-C because spatiotemporal separation doesn't inherently introduce new axes/dimensions of time, and a single time dimension can service a construction of a timeline encompassing a multiverse. With all the debate over technicalities of when overarching timelines could qualify for Low 1-C, I have to summarize my concerns into a simple yes/no question.

Click to expand...

Are overarching timelines Low 1-C when there is confirmation for the lesser timelines it encompasses harboring their own time dimensions/axes?

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Hello Ultima, can you please address the Nasuverse High 1B thread thats been left unattended to for months? Everyone is waiting for your reply you said you would make. Thanks.