Murder Drones upgrade CRT/downgrade refutation CRT

[Arceus0x]

This is all that I will say now. You can argue against my points but I won't reply further since this is my final opinion that I won't be changing unless the later episodes confirm the stuff you are saying.
Since I sincerely doubt we are gonna give up on our points, I will stop and will wait for staff evaluation. I'll clarify anything they want to know but that's that.

I will call some staff here and I recommend that you do too (for reference, admins, bureaucrats and thread moderators can evaluate CRTs). Their opinion is always the final opinion so i'll let them decide in the end. That is all.

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Even if it is the rule that stuff JCJenson makes is durable doesn't mean that the walls are made by them without proof. All of the scaling comes from one feat and there's nothing that supports it beyond that, thus causing ridiculous stuff like 5-A pens. This essentially causes circular scaling since you try to explain away the anti-feat of MDs not breaking through walls by saying that it all backscales to them, when that isn't the case.

Two. Two planet level feats

Two planet level feats is a very good amount when every other anti feat could be addressed with the same umbrella argument.

The walls would have to be the same metal or any of the normal experiments there like 029 would have been able to break out, we already have explicit confirmation that the products are incredibly durable and that includes it’s drones, they could have broken through hefore Alice came to power if that was the case and they were locked in by flimsy normal walls.

Furthermore obviously the walls are made by them, we have never seen any other humans on the planet that we can see have any other job, in fact from what we’ve seen it is more likely that Cooper 9 was exclusively inhabited by JCJenson members and their families.

The walls are even part of an underground facility that is explicitly built to research the AbsoluteSolver. So yes, they’d use the same metal.

You could've just ignored it but ig being toxic about it was a better option for you

You are one to talk about toxicity. Seriously the whole reason this CRT is happening is because you got incredibly disrespectful in a debate for no reason when I was being respectful.

you relied on what I mentioned above for every anti-feat except for the Uzi gun thing on which I concede since it is a weird feat. Otherwise every counterfeat is basically "oh they are 5-A to cause JCJensons" despite having no evidence beyond assumptions that they make literally everything.

I used the same counter argument because literally your only arguments this entire time have been them being damaged with objects that are made by JCJenson, therefore falling under the same umbrella argument.

And no, it isn’t an assumption given that all of these things they’ve been hurt with all tie back to JCJenson in some way or another, such as being a pen made by them.

Being long and being detailed aren't mutually inclusive. You can make a proper argument with good details with a far better structure without relying on walls of text. You also seriously misunderstand how this site works. People often skim through arguments if there's too much text which ends up causing FRA trains and bad judgements. It is a thing that happens with smaller verses. It's also why some CRTs end up dying. If you were writing a proper paper or a thesis on something I'd agree with you wholeheartedly but here we're making arguments for others to judge on a verse with barely any supporters who care enough to comment on the matter.

If people skim through things then that’s not my fault, I’d argue it’s a horrible practice but regardless you specifically took issue with me breaking down each detail to fully prove my arguments which is by all means something that cannot be done in few words.

Also if there are FRA trains just because people won’t read then that’s sad and I genuinely don’t want that, but you also can’t claim that anyone who agrees is indeed doing such unless they admit to it, and in the end if FRA trains happen then the fault is on the people who didn’t read enough to form their own opinion and just went along with it.

That doesn't really prove that they are near each other though. This proves they are related but unless they're literally connected there's no reason to believe that this proves they are near each other

There was a dead drone with a picture of a Sentinel and the document had a Sentinel claw in it. That means that they had to have been able to make it to Camp 98.7 before they died, the Keybug was also right there which wouldn’t make sense if it wasn’t near given that the Keybug is the thing that controls the elevator.

.

I can and I will argue that it is far more presumptious. 5-A bots already relies on a feat we have never gotten clarifications for (which could very likely come out in the next episodes which is why I proposed waiting, though Ig that isn't something y'all like) and here we add another assumption which relies on even further assumptions. I cannot agree with that.

Arguing that there were two explosions and that Nori used a completely different one to kill all humans isn’t a presumption? I do not get how you are so set on using presumptions that have zero roots given that you are reluctant to agree to presumptions that have roots. [Null] black holes are a go-to move so it would make perfect sense for that to be what caused the hole.

but then we have a random undexplained hole. If the implosion caused it it would've blasted right through the entire building since it could blast through parts of it like its nothing. This also ruins the whole idea that the building is 5-A since it wouldn't make sense that parts of it would get disintegrated into nothing while the rest just magically survived, even though the explosion covered thousands of miles

Which is why my main argument was that Nori could have destroyed the roof otherwise via black holes, matter manipulation or telekinesis. Also implosions reduce volume occupied and concentrates matter and energy. It makes perfect sense that the implosion would cover a smaller space and actually break through.

Ok and? Just because a mcdonalds employee wears the same suit in US and UK doesn't make them come from the same place lol.

If we’ve never seen anyone else with that suit then it’s the most logical conclusion. Unless you think they were hazmat suits as standard uniforms everywhere, which wouldn’t make sense.

Actually you would see them very much. Your argument would make sense if we were on the surface, but we're not. On the surface we can't see faraway mountains due to curvature, but here the curvature not only doesn't exist but also isn't nearly big enough to make the rims invisible.

As you can see you need to be pretty much near the surface or on the level of the mantle to not see the rims and that is if we assume there is some curvature.
Without curvature there'd be even less of a chance to not see the rims since you would either be right next to the rims or at the very bottom of the hole with the holes extending forward.

Context for this image and how it proves anything? Is this some graph specifically showing the visibility from a crater of this exact size? Because if not then I don’t see why it would work here when different craters have different sizes.

Please understand that if we took every ocean on earth and placed it into the hole in the planet it would probably not fill it up even close to half way. Copper 9 has no confirmation of being filled with water more than earth and so even the strongest snow storms would take ages to fill up the hole to the extent that you're suggesting. Also, yet again, it is a big assumption and no, i very much disagree on it being in your favor.

That is as blatant of a lie as possible. Earth’s surface is almost entirely water. You could make a continent sized hole in the crust and an ocean would easily be able to fill it.

If it had nothing to do with the core then the core wouldn't be snuffed out and the planet wouldn't have been frozen over. Additionally a good amount of reason why humans died off is because the explosion caused the destabilization of the planet's atmosphere which caused a global ice age.

We never see the core being “snuffed out” that is you making an assumption because there was a second hole in the map Cyn sent J, which were very blatantly the floor-plans for the facility which would mean that the hole was also a naturally planned part. And the planet froze over because there was a nuclear winter, that’s standard stuff. Also the humans died instantly, so I don’t see how that is an argument.

I understand that Nori was the one who caused everything but it also doesn't make sense how she destroyed it. This would also conflict with your argument that the lab is at the bottom of the crater since the bottom of the crater is at the core.

If the floor plans of the lab show a crater then that means that the crater existed the last time they uploaded it. Cyn has never been to Copper 9 and wouldn’t have been able to add a crater to her map that she didn’t know was there. Nori’s methods of destruction make perfect sense, I’ve proven it over and over again

Oh so NOW they are weak heat-unresistant bots who would die to the earth's core?

One, that’s a trait from Nori, Doll, Uzi, Cyn, and the Disassembly Drones, it’s not a universal thing. And I think you are underestimating how hot a planet core is

This conflicts with your assumption that they survived the explosion since on average TNT explosions can reach temperatures of 3500 Kelvin which is more than enough to melt through even titanium. Here we have an explosion big enough to pulverize the moon. It might not reach temperatures of 100 million C like it does in Nuclear Explosions but it would reach high temperatures none the less and being even near it would cause heavy damage to metal. If Nori isn't heatproof enough to go to the planet core then she isn't heatproof enough to take a blast of that size.

The shockwave of the explosion froze humans on impact on episode 1. Clearly it’s not so hot.

It is better. If you called my arguments that then I'd be irritated but I wouldn't go and insult you personally. If you insulted me directly enough times I'd report you to the rule violations report thread and you'd get a warning for unnecessary rudenesss. A smart person can make a stupid argument and calling the argument stupid doesn't mean that the person is stupid. Calling a person stupid though is a direct insult.

That’s little more than an excuse to be disrespectful and yet get mad about lack of respect. That’s not valid justification at all.

we don't actually see the trees being dead btw. I never adressed that argument since it was irrelevant before but i think the perching part is more of a show of her physical strength rather a show of them being dead.

She wasn’t trying to destroy the tree, she just landed on it. It snapped right away, that’s nothing to do with strength. To begij with if the trees were alive and it was supposed to show strength then it would have bent first, rather than immediately snapping.

When trees die they always drop their leaves and if they don't at first then they will with any touch. These trees we see both near the labs and in the forest are very clearly full of their needles and leaves and are very much fine. This might be anecdotal evidence but last year we got a live christmas tree and put it up. By the end of winter it fully died and it would lose its needles at the tap of a finger, which made it a pain in the ass to remove it from the apartment without covering it in needles. The trees on this planet are under constant snowstorms and high winds which would've blown any dead leaves and needles away and yet they don't, which means they're still alive somehow. Also even if they are dead, being that close to the explosion that caused a crater of that size would have them vaporized. You are just assuming things to be something that they aren't shown to be so that it fits the narrative you're building even though it's not it.

One word. marcescence.

not everything they make, the products they make. Even then the durability can vary. This is proven by the fact that a pen could pierce J's face monitor even though both are made by JCJenson.

J’s sensors are hollow. The pen isn’t. The pen had momentum, J didn’t. Any metal can be damaged by a more dense concentration of that same metal with more momentum.

In short to prove that it is that durable you'd also need to prove that they were indeed made with the fines quality material that JCJenson have and that they are just as durable and more durable than the Murder Drones, though that kinda falls apart if we consider Nori pulverizing a hole in the labs but not getting pulverized herself according to your arguments.

Already debunked this argument on multiple levels.

She didn't just kill the humans. She caused an explosion which set off not only a shockwave but also an enviromental collapse which is why humans died off while non-biological drones were able to live.

That means nothing. The shockwave extended the range. That does nothing to change the explosion itself.

I can prove the explosion was at the core with the simple fact that the ground zero was clearly there. If she were to create that level of an explosion on the surface the crater wouldn't be so rugged since the explosion would equally affect all sides without any unequal interferance and it would also be flatter. Additionally we see the rugged area around the crater, pieces of the land essentially moving upwards due to the force moving upwards from the bottom.

Cabin Fever Labs is underground. Of course it would explode upwards. We have absolutely zero proof of the “ground zero” being underground, that is a lie and you know it.

We have an explosion that reaches the core of the earth, we have rugged terrain moving upwards with the explosion, we have the video with the explosion coming from inside the planet and we have the fact that the core was snuffed out and that's why everything is so cold and humans died off.

The core was not snuffed out. You just keep throwing that sentence around as if it means something, the core has nothing to do with it, that was the perspective from the Worker Drones who were ignorant of what happened,m(a point hammered home as early as ep 2)

Nori caused the explosion in the lab to escape, then left to the place which is directly connected to the core and there she caused an explosion. Option 2 is her creating what is essentially an escape path for herself so she can get out after she sets of the explosion. You are heavily relying on the assumption that the lab is at the bottom of the crater for my argument not to work.

You are heavily reliant on the pure speculatory argument(with zero statements or evidence that hasn’t been refuted) that the core was snuffed out for your point to work.

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

This is all that I will say now. You can argue against my points but I won't reply further since this is my final opinion that I won't be changing unless the later episodes confirm the stuff you are saying.
Since I sincerely doubt we are gonna give up on our points, I will stop and will wait for staff evaluation. I'll clarify anything they want to know but that's that.

I will call some staff here and I recommend that you do too (for reference, admins, bureaucrats and thread moderators can evaluate CRTs). Their opinion is always the final opinion so i'll let them decide in the end. That is all.

Alright. This debate admittedly got very heated and I do disagree with you heavily, but have a nice day.

 

[Arceus0x]

Alright. This debate admittedly got very heated and I do disagree with you heavily, but have a nice day.

You too. I tried calling over some staff and you should do too. Ask Antvasima or someone else to get people to check this out. If nobody comes then we're gonna be stuck at a very awkward situation.

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

@LordGriffin1000 @Lonkitt @DarkDragonMedeus @Planck69 @Armorchompy

Can you help here?

I can't take a proper in-depth look, but I supported the downgrades based on Arceusx thread, and am not seeing anything particularly compelling here with a cursory look.

 

[Propellus]

Both sides do seem pretty solid as well, could I use a summary?

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Both sides do seem pretty solid as well, could I use a summary?

You want me to summarize my argument?

 

[Propellus]

In a way that I can understand, yes

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

In a way that I can understand, yes

Alright. My argument is basically that the initial calc for the Copper 9 explosion(the large planet level one) should be reinstated because the main arguments for both the country level and building downgrade were distance from Uzi’s colony.

With this post I provided my evidence for the explosion happening at Cabin Fever Labs, being created by Nori, and normal Worker Drones surviving it.

 

[Propellus]

Weren't they 6-B before? What are you really proposing for if I may ask? And can you link some of the evidence?

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

yeah, they were 6B before this recent downgrade, and 5-A before that downgrade. I’m proposing the restoration of the 5-A stats via new information.

now I’ll post the evidence.
Here is the explosion that killed all humans(which was initially calced at 6 ronnatons) , here’s the statement that reveals Nori was behind that explosion(Alice here was there and is unharmed, as were others)

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

i should clarify where she says “Though” that is a subtitle error. In the scene she said “Thought”

 

[Propellus]

Alright, I'll be pointing out my thoughts later. But is okay if I can ping Psychomaster to see if he has any thoughts on this?

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Alright, I'll be pointing out my thoughts later. But is okay if I can ping Psychomaster to see if he has any thoughts on this?

Of course(as long as he himself doesn’t mind being pinged)

 

[Propellus]

@Psychomaster35

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

My hands are tied up atm, but I might be able to look at this later. But would be a good idea to have a TLDR summary.

 

[Arceus0x]

In a way that I can understand, yes

My proposal was that the labs in which Nori was located weren't in the crater and never were due to several inconsistencies like not visible crater rims and trees growing inside.
I believe that Nori escaped the labs, casually destroying them with attacks since her maximum output IS 5-A, and then got out, went to the core and destroyed a chunk of the planet from the inside, thus, nothing that existed in the labs, nor the labs themselves actually tanked it.

I believe she did that in that sequence due to how it is shown in the series, the fact that it was stated even if the other Arceus thinks that was misinformation, and there's the specifics of how the crater looks such as damaged landmass on the rims rising upwards as in the explosion was coming from the inside, there also being the fact that the crater looks too rugged to be destroyed from the surface.
The other part why I believe this fits is the fact that there's an unexplained hole in the labs that clearly goes upwards and it is never explained. The other Arceus thinks it is the explosion getting funneled through the labs and outside due to durability and this relies on the labs being IN the crater which I disagreed with above. I also think that contradicts the walls being more durable than the Murder Drones power output which are here proposed to be 5-A. This would also be contradicted by human buildings being affected at the rims of the explosion and it would also be contradicted by the buildings above the explosion getting nuked, even though they are supposed to be able to tank them.

Some of the other points I brought up is that this CRT relies on association fallacy since my doppelganger believes he can scale anything made by JCJenson to the supposed tanking of the 5-A explosion, which includes revolvers, walls, pens and more. You can see the counter arguments from both sides above.

The final two points that I had were
1. The feat would be a massive outlier since the highest fests we have beyond the 5-A feats exclusive to Absolute Solver Drones are all below 9-A+ which is a big problem.
2. The 5-A would scale to Tessa, who is a human. She has shown some superhuman characteristics but she is still a human, which would be weird since no other human tanked the explosion.

If you need scans you can get them in my messages above. If you want specific scans, ask me and I'll send them later.
I kinda woke up with a massive fever and thought I might as well respons while I'm waiting for it to settle down. See ya.

 

[Arceus0x]

If y'all need an even shorter TL;DR then mention it, I'll do it once I wake up

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

My hands are tied up atm, but I might be able to look at this later. But would be a good idea to have a TLDR summary.

Oh, does that mean that my TLDR summary for Propellus was bad? If so I can try to do a better one

 

[Arceus0x]

Oh, does that mean that my TLDR summary for Propellus was bad? If so I can try to do a better one

Nah I think it's good enough they might've not noticed it at first. Like i said in an earlier message, while details are important, one of the most important parts of every CRT is making them short and easy to understand so that people don't get lost in messages.
If DD wants another summary then sure though.

 

[Propellus]

I still need a TLDR summary from you as well

 

[Arceus0x]

I still need a TLDR summary from you as well

Me?

 

[Propellus]

Yes.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes.

Ig my summary wasn't short enough even though it covers all points? I'll add it later

 

[Psychomaster35]

I'm neutral to this at this moment.

 

[Arceus0x]

Yes.

Ok here is an even shorter summary.
I disagree with the re-upgrade because i think some points brought up are wrong. I think the lab from which the 5-A character escaped was not in the middle of the crater as OP suggests because we can't see the rims of the crater when we're right outside of the labs.
Here's how the crater looks


Here's how it looks outside of the lab


We can even see trees there and not nearly enough time passed for a crater to get foreststion. No rims visible, thus it isn't in the crater. What does this mean?

It means that the point OP makes about the labs and the drones in the labs surviving the 5-A explosion doesn't work since they were not even near it as there's no solid evidence supporting it.

Now for the shorter part
-the feat is an outlier since every other feat is below 9-A+
-The argument OP makes that everything made by JCJenson scales to 5-A like the drones relies on the association fallacy since it's the only supposed feats that fits the idea
-JCJenson products being 5-A is contradicted by the fact that everything got destroyed by the explosion and left only a crater, which would suggest that even from a distance it could destroy human made structures and JC structures.
-The drones would end up scaling to Tessa who is a human who, while is somewhat above the average human, is not shown to be special in any way. 5-A humans makes no sense since they got killed in the explosion.

Idk how else to summarize it, there were a lot of arguments

 

[Propellus]

My apologies for the very late response.

Okay so, a little moment of truth is that just because every other feat that is calced that is ranked below 5-A doesn't necessarily make them outliers nor really assign their tiers for that matter. For most of the arguments I parse through, it occurs to me that most of these arguments are calc-related rather than logic based so I would recommend calling over some CGMs to review these kinds of feat. Other than that, I'm still not to quite sure. So I'm just gonna be neutral on this for now

 

[Arceus0x]

My apologies for the very late response.

Okay so, a little moment of truth is that just because every other feat that is calced that is ranked below 5-A doesn't necessarily make them outliers nor really assign their tiers for that matter. For most of the arguments I parse through, it occurs to me that most of these arguments are calc-related rather than logic based so I would recommend calling over some CGMs to review these kinds of feat. Other than that, I'm still not to quite sure. So I'm just gonna be neutral on this for now

.... They're not calc related they're about who can and has tanked what... Whatever rows your goat ig

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Welp I guess I’ll bump it again

 

[TRAE_is_arceus]

Does anyone know who I can ask to look at this since it’s still not being approved or disapproved?

 

[Livinmeme]

the feat is an outlier since every other feat is below 9-A+

That is not how it works, goddamit. Tell me the definition of outler (from the wiki btw), and explain me how it fis

-JCJenson products being 5-A is contradicted by the fact that everything got destroyed by the explosion and left only a crater, which would suggest that even from a distance it could destroy human made structures and JC structures.

We accept 4-B pipe, do you think that isn't more stupid???

 

[Arceus0x]

That is not how it works, goddamit. Tell me the definition of outler (from the wiki btw), and explain me how it fis

We accept 4-B pipe, do you think that isn't more stupid???

I've said already that I will not be replying to anything else. The staff shall pass judgement

 

[Arceus0x]

Does anyone know who I can ask to look at this since it’s still not being approved or disapproved?

I've suggested some people already. Just looks through the list of staff and hit up the people who are thread mods or admins

 

[Livinmeme]

I've said already that I will not be replying to anything else. The staff shall pass judgement

I...What? You can't just do a statement that goes against the definition of the wiki, and then shrug any and all attempts of discussion

 

[Arceus0x]

I...What? You can't just do a statement that goes against the definition of the wiki, and then shrug any and all attempts of discussion

We've already discussed it before and the staff aren't dumb, if they find my concerns lacking they'll favor the other side. If we go on arguing endlessly we'll just never get a proper evaluation

 

[MrCricket8464]

So did the staff ever come to a conclusion for this post? Is it approved? Disapproved?

 

[Arceus0x]

So did the staff ever come to a conclusion for this post? Is it approved? Disapproved?

Neutral Ig
You can try to call someone over

 

[MrCricket8464]

Neutral Ig
You can try to call someone over

Who should I call over?

 

[Arceus0x]

Who should I call over?

There are many staff options, just look through them on the members tab.

 

[MrCricket8464]

@JustSomeWeirdo @LephyrTheRevanchist @Eficiente @Flashlight237

Can you guys help with this?

This CRT has been open for a few months now and it's still unclear whether or not it's been approved or not.