Marvel Comics Astral Form and Telepathy revisions

[Eseseso]

Astral Form Physiology (Marvel Comics)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Above is my sandbox for Astral Forms and the Astral Plane in comics, such as the innate nature of Astral Forms, the Astral Plane's nature and status as a higher dimension within Marvel Cosmology, what powers Astral Forms possess (both innate and otherwise), and what powers one would have by affecting/damaging/destroying an Astral Form (including all the types of NPI one would get). The latter would also affect the potency of soul manipulation/destruction in Marvel comics, should Higher-Dimensional Existence be accepted.

For example, even basic magic can affect and destroy Astral Forms, so all magic users in Marvel will get the powers from affecting Astral Forms.

Also, as the sandbox explains, all telepathic battles take place on the Astral Plane, so all telepaths in Marvel (both normal telepathy and magic telepathy) would have their mind-hax potency/range scale to the higher-dimensional potency of the Astral Plane (aka Low 1-A). The best telepaths in marvel (Xavier, Doctor Strange, etc.) are already on this level, this just supports them and amps any other telepaths in Marvel.

Now, all the abilities and powers of Astral Forms will NOT affect the actual mortality of Marvel characters, as when people die in Marvel...they just die, with their Astral Forms just losing their body. This is supported by how Astral Forms are considered separate entities from their physical bodies, such as with this explanation.

However, this does greatly improve the resilience of minds and souls within Marvel due to the higher-dimensional nature and other innate characteristics of Astral forms as explained in the sandbox.

Staff near-full or full agreements (voting staff in bold): @M3X_2.0 (Fully Agreed in the Marvel discussion thread), @KLOL506 (Agrees with almost everything but is unsure on NEP, Limited Causality/Plot Manipulation, Resistance to Vector Manipulation, and BDE), @LephyrTheRevanchist

Staff Neutral and/or Partially Agree with OP (voting staff in bold): @LordGriffin1000 (Unsure on Higher-Dimensional Existence, Beyond-Dimensional Existence, Nonduality, and Nonexistent Physiology, but agrees on everything else), @UchihaSlayer96 (Same as LordGriffin1000), @Planck69 (Same as LordGriffin1000, but agrees with OP on Higher-Dimensional Existence), @Duedate8898 (Disagrees with BDE, ND, NEP, Concept Manipulation and Unsure on Abstract Existence, but Agrees with Acausality and Higher-Dimensional Existence), @LordTracer (Same as LordGriffin1000, but agrees with OP on Higher-Dimensional Existence and disagrees with the OP on Beyond-Dimensional Existence), @Theglassman12 (Disagrees with Nonduality and BDE Type 2 [is open to type 1], disagrees with NEP Type 3 and the aspects for NEP Type 2, but agrees with NEP Type 2 itself and everything else)

Staff disagreements (voting staff in bold): @Eficiente (Disagrees with everything outside of intangibility, mind manipulation, and soul manipulation. Agrees that Astral Plane = Mind/Telepathy potency/range, and with the Astral Plane being a higher dimension, but disagrees with Astral Plane potency scaling to the soul).

Edit:

Further statements of note which I found:

From Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #140:

• Consciousness is the blueprint by which all worlds and times were born, to control one's own consciousness is to control everything, is to become everything.
• Reality exists through consciousness, it is always changing, being shaped by our thoughts, the Weaver is a technology that creates realities coming from our consciousness, these realities created by consciousness are no less real than the primary realities from which they originate.

From Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #126:

• Mind and Soul are equals, within your soul/consciousness you find the realm of pure thought, which is boundless and formless, and which takes shape according to ourselves.
• There is no difference in the truthfulness of the worlds of the unconscious or the concrete reality, there are those who claim that all the universe is no more than a holographic projection.

From Silver Surfer Vol. 3 #133:

• Each soul harbors an entire universe of devils and angels.
• Those universes have layers, and there are a infinite number of demons.

From New Avengers Vol. 4 #2:

• Consciousness is shaping the universe, minds are expanding the universe itself and building physics and mathematics.
• When souls die, they unite with the universe, like diamonds sparkling in the landscape of the space-time, and souls exist in a higher dimensional frequency. Furthermore, to reach/see/affect the souls of the dead, one must interfere with a higher dimensional frequency.

From Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe A to Z #12 ; Mystic Dimensions - From the Journals of Ian McNee: The Inner Planes:

• The Astral Plane is the realm of the mind as well as an abstract dimension shaped by the minds of those present.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I think Efficiente post should also be copied here

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

I think Efficiente post should also be copied here

okay

I have issues with it.

• Having Intangibility when you already have Incorporeality is redundant.
• This is something everyone gets wrong about Abstract Existence, the page says "Embodying a concept is not enough to obtain this ability, an abstract needs feats or reliable statements proving that the concept they represent grants them Immortality/Regeneration or control over the abstraction" and we don't have that here.
  • Type 1 also says "affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars", and we have nothing of that here. You can hit a soul and you can hit anyone in this form.
• They absolutely don't have "possibly Infinite or Immeasurable speed", they are way too many times in which others can keep up with it, and way, way too many times the actions they do aren't infinitely fast (Almost every time, minus the parts where we don't know because we don't see anything else as a ref of how much time happened). I don't need to say this but all the statements that could give it those speeds can also be poetic rather than literal in the way that gives those speeds by our standards.
• On Higher-Dimensional Existence, Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1):
  • Even if they were to exist in a higher dimension, that's meaningless for this powers, the forms themselves need to be higher dimensional. Being inside =/= Being as big.
  • This is not a higher dimension in any way that we care about. It's "a substrate of Earth-616", sure, but that doesn't mean it's as big as it, anything could be of any size to be the substrate of anything. Being "higher" is pointless positioning. Any dimension outside the main universe is "beyond" it.
• On Gravity Manipulation: No, no. That just means he can fly in context, of course being incorporeal means gravity doesn't affect you, adding it as a resistance is redundant & wrong.
• Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) should be Limited Self-Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3), it only applies to the creation of their form.
• Memory Manipulation: Well we don't know if the soul "contains" memories, as far as we know the soul reflects upon and affects memories, which is not quite the same. Even then, this doesn't give them any Memory Manip.
• Mind Manipulation: Limited as well, it's not like they can do anything Mind wise to anyone not in the Astral plane.
• Nonduality (Nature 1, Aspect 2):
  • "The Astral Realm, where all Astral Forms reside, is described as "The edge of reality. The shores of oblivion. The realm of mind and spirit that exists between being and non-being"": Existing "between being and non-being" =/= Being neither being nor non-being. This is where they are, not necessarily what they are.
  • "One's astral form is their Ethereal Ego, which is one's conception of self as well as their conception of what is not themself.": This is completely disingenuous as both statements don't relate to each other at all. When the AO adds on how destroying his ego destroyed what he isn't, he is poetic, he refers to what he never came to be or how what he is by default limits what he isn't, not that everyone's ego has what they're not. Even IF that was the case (it isn't), that would mean the ego has both things, not a nonduality version of them. Loki comes from another comic just basically saying that a part of himself is that form.
• Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2 & 3; Aspect Types 1, 2 [Type 3 Concept], & 3):
  • "The Astral Realm, where all Astral Forms reside, is described as "The edge of reality. The shores of oblivion. The realm of mind and spirit that exists between being and non-being"": As said before, existing "between being and non-being" =/= Being neither being nor non-being. This is where they are, not necessarily what they are. Even then this is having one's cake & eat it too as they're not even fully "non-being".
  • "because Astral Forms are composed of not just one's soul, but also one's mind": I already give issues with the premise.
  • "their "idea, thought, and narrative", and the very essence of who they are, they thus exist between "being" and "not being" in regard to their minds, souls, and personal concepts, and information.": That's not true, "being" and "non-being" in that context only refers to a basic take on those words, you just made up that it has to refers to all the stuff the Astral realm deals with.
  • "One's astral form is their Ethereal Ego, which is one's conception of self as well as their conception of what is not themself.": Went over this before.
• "The stronger one's physical body is, the stronger their astral form will be.": Could be but that's not what the text says.

On Powers gained from affecting an Astral Form​

All of this part is wrong minus Soul Manip.

• Memory Manipulation*: Same as before, it wasn't established that it "contains" it, you just assumed that to be the case. But even if it was, affecting an Astral Form wouldn't be Memory Manip in the same way that only being able to manipulate cardboard boxes doesn't mean one can also manipulate what's inside them. Made up out of sheer something =/= Have that something inside in a metaphysical way, here is the latter case.
• Mind Manipulation*: Same issues.
• Non-Physical Interaction* (Ghost, Spirit, Soul - Energy - Invisibility, Intangibility - Incorporeality - Abstract Minds, Emotions/Personality, Memory, Ideas, Narrative, Thoughts, Life Force - Concept Type 3 - Information Type 2 - Nonexistent Nature Type 2 & 3, Aspect 1, 2, & 3 - Nondual Nature 1, Aspect 2): Jesus some of this are even synonyms.
  • Ghost, Spirit and Soul are the same, that's correct.
  • Energy is correct.
  • Being able to affect invisible beings is not a thing at all.
  • Intangibility is again redundant when you have Incorporeality.
  • Being an "Abstract Mind" isn't proven to be in a way any more untouchable than anyone with regular intangibility.
  • Emotions/Personality, Memory: Same issues said above.
  • Ideas, Narrative: The realm itself has that gimmick but that doesn't mean the Astral forms are made up out of sheer that.
  • Thoughts, Life Force: Same issues said above.
  • Concept Type 3 is wrong as manipulating a concept to create a form isn't the same as being a sheer concept that can't be affected at all unless you can affect concepts.
  • Same issue with Information Type 2, they're formed by all that info, but they're not necessarily sheer info that can't be affected unless you can manipulate info.
  • Nonexistent Nature Type 2 & 3, Aspect 1, 2, & 3 & Nondual Nature 1, Aspect 2 I already disagree with.
• Empathic Manipulation*: Same as above.
• Limited Causality Manipulation/Limited Plot Manipulation* - Since the Astral Plane is the realm of narrative, to affect one's Astral Form is to affect their personal narrative.: I already said it but having that gimmick doesn't mean being there makes you made up of that. It just means that the realm itself has gimmicks about narrative.
• Information Manipulation (Type 2)*: As said before, they're formed by all that info, but they're not necessarily sheer info that can't be affected unless you can manipulate infom, that's not what the comic establishes.
• Life Manipulation*: As said before, being made up out of sheer something =/= Have that something inside in a metaphysical way, here is the latter case.
• I already disagree with "the higher-dimensional nature of Astral Forms".

 

[Eseseso]

I think Efficiente post should also be copied here

https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-revenant-marvel-comics-discussion-thread.120870/post-6246392

 

[Excellence616]

Bump

 

[Eficiente]

I imagine that some of the things I disagree with are based on things people get away with in other verses to the point where those (wrong) standards are normalized to be correct by a large amount of people, as that can often be the case. If anyone wants to disagree with me, know that there will be scrutiny, sheer momentum won't cut it.

 

[Eseseso]

I imagine that some of the things I disagree with are based on things people get away with in other verses to the point where those (wrong) standards are normalized to be correct by a large amount of people, as that can often be the case. If anyone wants to disagree with me, know that there will be scrutiny, sheer momentum won't cut it.

Btw, you didn't seem to say anything about the telepathy stuff (which is probably my bad for not highlighting it more in the sandbox and the OP).

Any thoughts on that?

 

[Eficiente]

That's not the case at all. I would already disagree with that by extension by disagreeing with Low 1-A but the fact that many or most telepathic battles take place there doesn't necessarily mean that all telepaths always use that, just that most often use that because they prefer to do so. The place having a gimmick with thought, minds, etc. doesn't necessarily mean that all mental stuff can only take place there.

 

[Eseseso]

but the fact that many or most telepathic battles take place there doesn't necessarily mean that all telepaths always use that, just that most often use that because they prefer to do so. The place having a gimmick with thought, minds, etc. doesn't necessarily mean that all mental stuff can only take place there.

The Astral Plane is the realm of thought, and is connected to other mind-based realms such as where Nightmare resides as well as the Dreamscape.

Also, it has been consistently shown in the comics (as shown in my many scans within the sandbox) that it is the realm where people telepathically interact.

 

[Eseseso]

That's not the case at all. I would already disagree with that by extension by disagreeing with Low 1-A

Our accepted cosmology blog puts the Astral Plane at Low 1-A due to it being at the very edge of Eternity.

I asked Ultima about this and he confirmed it.

 

[Eficiente]

The Astral Plane is the realm of thought

Also, it has been consistently shown in the comics (as shown in my many scans within the sandbox) that it is the realm where people telepathically interact.

Already replied to this.

and is connected to other mind-based realms such as where Nightmare resides as well as the Dreamscape.

Of course it would. Being connected to=/=the same as.

Our accepted cosmology blog puts the Astral Plane at Low 1-A due to it being at the very edge of Eternity.

I asked Ultima about this and he confirmed it.

You did not understand one of my issues with it:

• Even if they were to exist in a higher dimension, that's meaningless for this powers, the forms themselves need to be higher dimensional. Being inside =/= Being as big.

And I do have issues with having the Astral Realm as 1-A based on that, idk if we can go over that in this thread.

 

[Eseseso]

And I do have issues with having the Astral Realm as Low 1-A based on that, idk if we can go over that in this thread.

No we can't.

Btw, it was accepted here. And also you would probably need to ask Ultima since he's the one who made the thread.

Also you need to bring actual scans and evidence to debunk something like that.

 

[Excellence616]

Already replied to this.

Of course it would. Being connected to=/=the same as.

You did not understand one of my issues with it:

• Even if they were to exist in a higher dimension, that's meaningless for this powers, the forms themselves need to be higher dimensional. Being inside =/= Being as big.

And I do have issues with having the Astral Realm as 1-A based on that, idk if we can go over that in this thread.

Low 1-A and abilities comes from Ultima revisions which has already accepted and used and if am not mistaking Ultima also supervised the blog.

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

Right, so, at the moment the profiles for the Marvel Comics Abstracts are all quite bad, and in pretty dire need to repairs. Not only in terms of tiering, but also of... everything, really. This thread will be Part 1 of an attempt at overhauling them. Beginning from the top (The tiers). About...

vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)

Hi all. Glad to see you all here after the previous thread. As the title suggests, this is a continuation of my ongoing revisions of Marvel's Cosmics, this time tackling the tiering of the Omniversal Abstracts. After this one, I plan to make a Part 2.5, which will deal with fixing... everything...

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[Eseseso]

Low 1-A and abilities comes from Ultima revisions which has already accepted and used and if am not mistaking Ultima also supervised the blog.

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 1 of ???) (STAFF ONLY)

Right, so, at the moment the profiles for the Marvel Comics Abstracts are all quite bad, and in pretty dire need to repairs. Not only in terms of tiering, but also of... everything, really. This thread will be Part 1 of an attempt at overhauling them. Beginning from the top (The tiers). About...

vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2 of ????)

Hi all. Glad to see you all here after the previous thread. As the title suggests, this is a continuation of my ongoing revisions of Marvel's Cosmics, this time tackling the tiering of the Omniversal Abstracts. After this one, I plan to make a Part 2.5, which will deal with fixing... everything...

vsbattles.com

Revising Marvel's Abstracts (Part 2.5 of ?????)

Well, ******* finally. As it stands, this thread will largely only discuss scaling and presentation of profiles, so, those who are not interested in this are free to ignore it. I'm also not terribly sure if this is controversial enough to warrant being moved to the Staff Discussion board, as...

vsbattles.com

His CRT for the cosmology blog (which explains all of this) is right here.

 

[Setsuna_tenma]

Agree with effi, it would be Low 1A range not Low 1A potency

 

[Gonzalo]

I will never stop saying it, but the astral plane is described as an archetypal world

Sauce: Dark Angel Vol 1 #15

From there on, I am just waiting for opinions on the matter
PD: I agree with revision
PD 2: I hadn't read the blog again, because that wasn't there before xd

 

[Roirr]

Astral Form Physiology (Marvel Comics)

vsbattles.fandom.com

Above is my sandbox for Astral Forms and the Astral Plane in comics, such as the innate nature of Astral Forms, the Astral Plane's nature and status as a higher dimension within Marvel Cosmology, what powers Astral Forms possess (both innate and otherwise), and what powers one would have by affecting/damaging/destroying an Astral Form (including all the types of NPI one would get).

For example, even basic magic can affect and destroy Astral Forms, so all magic users in Marvel will get the powers from affecting Astral Forms.

Also, as the sandbox explains, all telepathic battles take place on the Astral Plane, so all telepaths in Marvel (both normal telepathy and magic telepathy) would have their mind-hax potency scale to the higher-dimensional potency of the Astral Plane (aka Low 1-A). The best telepaths in marvel (Xavier, Doctor Strange, etc.) are already on this level, this just supports them and amps any other telepaths in Marvel.

Now, all the abilities and powers of Astral Forms will NOT affect the actual mortality of Marvel characters, as when people die in Marvel...they just die, with their Astral Forms just losing their body. This is supported by how Astral Forms are considered separate entities from their physical bodies.

However, this does greatly improve the resilience of minds and souls within Marvel due to the higher-dimensional nature and other innate characteristics of Astral forms as explained in the sandbox.

ıts looks good

 

[Eseseso]

I will never stop saying it, but the astral plane is described as an archetypal world

From there on, I am just waiting for opinions on the matter
PD: I agree with revision
PD 2: I hadn't read the blog again, because that wasn't there before xd

Yeah I added it lol

 

[Eficiente]

And I do have issues with having the Astral Realm as 1-A based on that, idk if we can go over that in this thread.

No we can't.

Btw, it was accepted here. And also you would probably need to ask Ultima since he's the one who made the thread.

Also you need to bring actual scans and evidence to debunk something like that.

No need for saying the latter, I would give my reasons if I were to go over it.

 

[Eseseso]

Btw, I asked @Ultima_Reality and he did say that he would give his thoughts on this CRT, so I'm waiting for his response.

 

[LordGriffin1000]

For the powers and abilities of astral forms and projection...

Inorganic Physiology is unneeded since that's more for robots/inanimate objects, Incorporeality covers it since were dealing with souls/minds which aren't tangible. Same goes for Intangibility, it's mentioned that that's more for a physical object that can turn intangible, but astral forms are incorporeal so it's already covered by that as well but it's not a real issue.

For Abstract Existence, they seem to fit some of the stuff but I'm unsure on it. I can't speak on High-Dimensional Existence/Beyond Dimensional Existence and the same goes for Nonduality and Nonexistent Physiology as those are things that still confuse me so I'd rather leave that to Marvel Comics experts and members knowledgeable on those abilities.

Everything else their seems fine in my opinion, I think Immeasurable for speed works but I don't know everything about Astral Forms to say if it's consistent or proper.

As for the powers gained from effecting Astral Forms...

I think Non-Physical Interaction of some of those types are a given but I'm unsure if they'd get everything simply due to the astral forms containing them. Obviously soul, abstract (if accepted), Nonduality and Nonexistent interactions work, maybe a few others but I'm not sure on ones like causality or plot effecting.

Weakness stuff seems fine. Overall though, I can't really help here. It's going to be up to the more knowledgeable staff/users who understand Marvel Comics better than me.

 

[Duedate8898]

Looking over this, I see a lot of redundancy with powers that could be taken out.

I would get rid of Inorganic Physiology, Intangibility, Beyond Dimensional Existence, Nonduality Type 1, Nonexistence Physiology Type 3, Conceptual Manipulation and remove those resistances in the section with the Acausality section. Most other powers in there cover these and help cut down on the bloat.

I'm unsure of Abstract Existence since I don't fully get it myself so I'll leave it up to others.

If the Astral Plane is already accepted as Low 1-A that's cool, but if it isn't I'm not sure if everything present here is good enough for it to qualify.

Otherwise, I think everything else looks good.

 

[Eseseso]

Looking over this, I see a lot of redundancy with powers that could be taken out.

I would get rid of Inorganic Physiology, Intangibility, Beyond Dimensional Existence, Nonduality Type 1, Nonexistence Physiology Type 3, and remove those resistances in the section with the Acausality section. Most other powers in there cover these and help cut down on the bloat.

I'm unsure of Abstract Existence since I don't fully get it myself so I'll leave it up to others.

If the Astral Plane is already accepted as Low 1-A that's cool, but if it isn't I'm not sure if everything present here is good enough for it to qualify.

Otherwise, I think everything else looks good.

Thank you for your feedback!

I removed the Inorganic and Intangible stuff but will wait to hear on the other stuff.

 

[Eseseso]

Bump (even though we're all just waiting for Ultima right now).

 

[Eseseso]

Also, in case it isn't clear, this would affect the potency of Soul Manipulation for all those who can affect/destroy astral forms, assuming that Higher Dimensional Existence for them is accepted.

 

[Eficiente]

Personally I don't really like how you put confidence on that after you were told how it is that it's wrong and with you not having argued against that. It reads to me that you're just vaguely hoping for the most broken things to be taken in as a possitive rather than building accuracy being the priority. It's bad faith on my part of course, but I consider it an observation worth having.

 

[Eseseso]

Personally I don't really like how you put confidence on that after you were told how it is that it's wrong and with you not having argued against that. It reads to me that you're just vaguely hoping for the most broken things to be taken in as a positive rather than building accuracy being the priority.

I mean, the sandbox has a dozen statements on Astral stuff being HDE. Not even Low 1-A, just higher-dimensional.

And I think I found a few more that I might add to the sandbox eventually.

Also, it seems that most if not all of the staff besides you are neutral on it.

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

For the powers and abilities of astral forms and projection...

Inorganic Physiology is unneeded since that's more for robots/inanimate objects, Incorporeality covers it since were dealing with souls/minds which aren't tangible. Same goes for Intangibility, it's mentioned that that's more for a physical object that can turn intangible, but astral forms are incorporeal so it's already covered by that as well but it's not a real issue.

For Abstract Existence, they seem to fit some of the stuff but I'm unsure on it. I can't speak on High-Dimensional Existence/Beyond Dimensional Existence and the same goes for Nonduality and Nonexistent Physiology as those are things that still confuse me so I'd rather leave that to Marvel Comics experts and members knowledgeable on those abilities.

Everything else their seems fine in my opinion, I think Immeasurable for speed works but I don't know everything about Astral Forms to say if it's consistent or proper.

As for the powers gained from effecting Astral Forms...

I think Non-Physical Interaction of some of those types are a given but I'm unsure if they'd get everything simply due to the astral forms containing them. Obviously soul, abstract (if accepted), Nonduality and Nonexistent interactions work, maybe a few others but I'm not sure on ones like causality or plot effecting.

Weakness stuff seems fine. Overall though, I can't really help here. It's going to be up to the more knowledgeable staff/users who understand Marvel Comics better than me.

I'm in the exact same boat as Griffin here, and my thoughts are pretty much the exact same as his.

 

[Eseseso]

I'm in the exact same boat as Griffin here, and my thoughts are pretty much the exact same as his.

Thank you very much, Uchiha.

 

[Eseseso]

In a nutshell, it seems, the main points of contention are:

1. Nonduality
2. NEP
3. HDE
4. Acausality Type 4 (though tbf this power is basically useless since it definitely does not give their bodies type 4 Acausality).

 

[Antvasima]

What currently needs to be evaluated here, and what are the staff conclusions here so far?

 

[Eseseso]

What currently needs to be evaluated here, and what are the staff conclusions here so far?

The main issues (which most if not all of the staff besides Efi are neutral on) are Acausality Type 4 (which is admittedly useless since it does not affect the body), Higher-Dimensional Existence, Nonexistant Physiology, and Nonduality, which are described with scans in the sandbox.

Also, there is how this would affect the potency/range of telepathy in Marvel, since the Astral Plane, where all telepathic battles take place in Marvel, is a Low 1-A plane as explained in the sandbox (which itself is from Ultima's already-accepted cosmology blog).

 

[Eficiente]

I mean, the sandbox has a dozen statements on Astral stuff being HDE.

No, it doesn't, you're using standards from like 10 years ago, wordings that mean stuff other than that you're using them for. If it had a dozen statements for it 1 alone would cut it, maybe you know none of them does anything on its own and put it as a whole to try to see if by doing so you can push the highest possible meaning in what they say, which is not how it works.

 

[Eseseso]

No, it doesn't, you're using standards from like 10 years ago, wordings that mean stuff other than that you're using them for. If it had a dozen statements for it 1 alone would cut it, maybe you know none of them does anything on its own and put it as a whole to try to see if by doing so you can push the highest possible meaning in what they say, which is not how it works.

I have no clue what you are talking about. These are a dozen statements that, from what I can tell, either directly indicate or support HDE (not even including the Low 1-A stuff). And I might add a few other statements I found since we're still waiting for Ultima.

If you have issues with some of the statements, directly explain which statements you don't agree with for HDE and properly explain why.

 

[Oliver_de_jesus]

Everything is fine, however, I believe that Nep falls as type 1 and 3, not type 2 and 3, since while it is said to exist between being and non-being, this seems to be something like 0.5, with 1 (existence) and 0 (non-existence) , so it would exist in a paradoxical state

 

[AlphaOmegaV1]

Pretty good overall. There are only a few things that I would change here.

Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 1): This actually sounds more like Type 2, since this Astral Plane is described as a "Higher Frequency" of reality without Space and Time present which makes me think it superior to regular Space-Time, but I could be wrong.

Nonexistence Physiology: I'm unsure about the NEP, if being between "Being" (Existence) and Not Being (Non Existence) means you're still associated with both, but aren't fully either one then it would just be Type 3. If being between means that you aren't associated with either one, it would be Type 2. It's kinda hard to say since Types 2 and 3 are pretty much the polar opposites of one another, and the description doesn't really paint a clear picture of it being one or the other.

Nonduality (Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 2): I don't if there's more to this that I missed, but just going by the description, the aspect seems more like Type 1 with Being and Non Being as well as what is and isn't who they are, which are specific dualities (Type 1). Aspect Type 2 means you have to embody literally every single duality that encompasses a reality (At least that's what it says on the Nonduality page).

Invisibility: The description sounds like it would give a limited resistance of some sort, don't know what for though. Sounds like a similar vein to Dragon Ball's God Ki where it can't be sensed by beings lesser than a god. Where as here the Astral form can't be sensed by beings that lack the magic necessary to detect them.

 

[Gonzalo]

Agree with AlphaOmegaV1 because it makes quite a bit of sense that the astral plane due to its existence makes quite a bit of sense to me due to the "Higher Frequency" of reality without Space and Time present which makes me think it superior to regular Space-Time.
As for the rest, I think I will be neutral until a little more evidence of non-duality and NEP is brought forth.
Type 4 Acausality and Beyond-Dimensional Existence are pretty clear to me.

 

[Eseseso]

Pretty good overall. There are only a few things that I would change here.

Beyond Dimensional Existence (Type 1): This actually sounds more like Type 2, since this Astral Plane is described as a "Higher Frequency" of reality without Space and Time present which makes me think it superior to regular Space-Time, but I could be wrong.

Nonexistence Physiology: I'm unsure about the NEP, if being between "Being" (Existence) and Not Being (Non Existence) means you're still associated with both, but aren't fully either one then it would just be Type 3. If being between means that you aren't associated with either one, it would be Type 2. It's kinda hard to say since Types 2 and 3 are pretty much the polar opposites of one another, and the description doesn't really paint a clear picture of it being one or the other.

Nonduality (Nature Type 1; Aspect Type 2): I don't if there's more to this that I missed, but just going by the description, the aspect seems more like Type 1 with Being and Non Being as well as what is and isn't who they are, which are specific dualities (Type 1). Aspect Type 2 means you have to embody literally every single duality that encompasses a reality (At least that's what it says on the Nonduality page).

Invisibility: The description sounds like it would give a limited resistance of some sort, don't know what for though. Sounds like a similar vein to Dragon Ball's God Ki where it can't be sensed by beings lesser than a god. Where as here the Astral form can't be sensed by beings that lack the magic necessary to detect them.

Agree with AlphaOmegaV1 because it makes quite a bit of sense that the astral plane due to its existence makes quite a bit of sense to me due to the "Higher Frequency" of reality without Space and Time present which makes me think it superior to regular Space-Time.
As for the rest, I think I will be neutral until a little more evidence of non-duality and NEP is brought forth.
Type 4 Acausality and Beyond-Dimensional Existence are pretty clear to me.

Thank you both for responding.

Btw, what do you two think for Higher-Dimensional Existence?

 

[Gonzalo]

Thank you both for responding.

Btw, what do you two think for Higher-Dimensional Existence?

The evidence is quite aware that the astral plane is a higher dimensional structure that reaches the Low 1-A level, at least I feel it is somewhat obvious that souls have a higher dimensional existence.

 

[Planck69]

Like UchihaSlayer96, I largely agree with LordGriffin1000's analysis, although I think that Higher-Dimensional Existence and Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1) are fine.