Mephistus
Username Only- 939
- 700
The cosmology should hold infinite universes and those that scale would be Count Bleck, Super Dimentio as they scale to the Void's power and being durable enough to survive it and Paper Mario, Paper Luigi, Paper Peach, & Paper Bowser for overcoming their durability and their power source being comparably powerful when amplified by love energy from the Pure Hearts.
If we have character profiles for Luigi, Peach, or Bowser eventually being made for their paper counterparts then this tier upgrade would apply to them as well with a Pure Hearts key,
Foundation:
There exist as many Subcons for as many dreamers in existence as stipulated in-game during BS Super Mario Bros USA (this is the English translation of the Japanese audio):
"Narrator: Subcon, the land of dreams. A long time ago in this land [audio gap] thanks to the actions of these four. Wart had his mouth filled with many vegetables and was kicked out of Subcon. However, there was not just one Subcon. There are as many Subcons as there are people's dreams, and Wart was secretly moving from dream to dream, causing trouble."
Every Subcon is indicated to be a universe in its own right based on the individual Subcon dream world that Mario had actively brought back to its peaceful and normal state.
There are realistic cosmic stars held within these parallel Subcons, as indicated by the official game guide with levels without stars and a moon and shown for levels with a moon and stars.
Citations:
https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros._2_Inside_Out
https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia
Argument 1:
"Infinite ghosts exist (but it is not from the ScareScraper!)"
Going off the Super Mario Odyssey official Nintendo licensed guide, there is a secret location found via pipe in the Ancient Kingdom where there is an already existing infinite number of ghosts and one Chargin' Chuck populating it in the lore the book presents the reader.
Excerpt from this guidebook:
"Open the Moon Rock and a strange pipe emerges right next to the Odyssey. Duck into it to find a strange world populated with infinite Chinchos, and a Chargin' Chuck."
These Chinchos are said to be ghosts and this is noted by their ethereal appearance.
There are numerous sources that show that ghosts need sleep and do dream as naturally in the verse:
o In Mario Party 5; the Stars invite a regular Boo, a ghost, to the Dream Depot since it has the ability to dream.
o In the Luigi's Mansion series, ghosts want to sleep and do so naturally. Even getting annoyed when they can't sleep.
o In Super Mario Galaxy series, the ghosts are shown to sleep as well.
o In Bowser's Inside Story Yikk's ghost speaks of him sleeping and his dreams.
Another Official Super Mario Odyssey Nintendo licensed guidebook for the game supplements that the ghosts should have also dreamed during while they were still alive Tostarenans prior to becoming ghosts by dying.
Excerpt from this guidebook:
"Considerably less savvy in the world of tourism, the Moe-Eye possess an ability the Tostarenans can only dream of."
Citations:
"The Art of Super Mario Odyssey"
"Super Mario Odyssey Prima Collector's Edition Guide"
"Super Mario Odyssey: Kingdom Adventures Travel Companion Volume 1 Prima Guide"
Argument 2:
"Infinite dream(er)s & hope(r)s exist according to an alien in Super Paper Mario during World 4 when you come back to visit after defeating the final boss"
Excerpt of the English translation from the Japanese version of the game:
"A young alien from the planet Puranēn..."
"Without leaving this planet, he thinks of the infinite universe."
"The universe spreads infinitely...and it's filled with hopes and dreams..."
"Thank you very much for protecting the world together!" -Translation credits to ZeroTwo
Here are the English versions of the lines used in question as they pertain most to this topic.
By analyzing this quote made, one can simply interpret that the alien here references an infinite number of certain off-screen creatures already alive in order to literally fill up this space with beings that sleep and dream (You can observe a sleeping being of course) and them coming to that conclusion based on knowing life completely throughout this infinite universe has dreaming capable organisms.
To go on with this train of thought, this can be exemplified for another alien living in this space that Tippi can determine he is capable of dreaming when she scans him during his sleep (sleeping next to Mario), and he can be examined by her special tattle ability while he sleeps to demonstrate that he dreams a heartfelt thing while sleeping.
Excerpt of the English translation from the Japanese version of the game:
"The alien child "Squirps", whose real name is "Squirp Korogaline Squirpina". Concerning his true identity, he was formerly the prince of the prospering Squirpia Kingdom of this universe...His dream is for the kingdom to someday be restored..." -Translation credits to LuckyEmile (Alice)
Argument 3:
"An Infinite number of pieces of paint make infinite dream worlds."
Side note here, I am just going off how paint is presented only in the Paper Mario verse since Color Splash paint isn't confirmed to be the exact same and share the same properties/source available outside of the Paper Mario verse such as for Regular Bowser Jr's paintbrush's paint making a sleepy Fat Boo and sleeping Petey Piranha in Super Mario Sunshine or the paint that is used to make Vincent Van Gore's ghost enemies in Luigi's Mansion; being washed by water in the former for Sunshine enemies.
The ending of Color Splash shows black paint makes up visible "outer space" as well for the Paper Mario verse, where even before this revelation we see a singular color fill in a paper background that starts as solid and becomes a hole.
Bowser forms Black Lava Bubbles solely from the black paint he spills off, which going by it being alike to all black paint that originated when coloring spaces like World 4 and bringing it into existence, black paint shows an equivalent physiology to the Lava Bubbles (a ghost species) that should be capable of dreaming individually as different sentient parts in its primordial form and even returns to be absorbed by Bowser as being simply referenced as still being simply black paint. Ghosts have proven to sleep and dream as I have repeatedly pointed out in Argument 1. The physiology of these same things can be affected in Paper Mario and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door by the sleep status effect.
Ignoring that, the Paint Stars are shown to sleep on their own being just a collection of specific paint colors and black paint is the result of mixing the paints they expel, which Antasma has (vaguely) indicated all sleeping beings simply make dreams when gathering dream energy regardless of species, which further hints that paint on its own would cause dream worlds to come into existence. Obviously, just sleeping on its own isn't perfect evidence that something dreams using our real-life examples of creatures, but that action strongly supports this idea that paints contribute to the number of existing dream worlds.
Argument 4:
"Infinite amounts of pieces of paper make infinite dream worlds."
In Color Splash, we are shown a scene of a paintless toad made only of blank regular, inanimate, and immobile paper being given paint by Mario and he states that he had a nightmare (in the Japanese version. In the English he outright states he had a whole deal with Wart showing up which is obviously a nod to Super Mario Bros 2)
So, it is presented that paper in the Paper Mario verse can dream on its own.
Space itself is made up of paper:
The sliced environment during Color Splash leaves a white void when paper is sliced.
The dimensional boundaries to outer space / World 4 from the Whoa Zone are constituted of paper.
Ending Notes:
Is that it? Not quite. Some notes on the dream cosmology as currently it works:
Dream Worlds are treated as being separately made and one cannot reach into another one conventionally, as shown with Luigi being normally unable to reach inside Bowser's dream from his dreams during Neo Bowser Castle events.
In SMB2 and Dream Team; dream people can be created inside the dreams, and falling asleep inside those dreams is possible and would correlate to more dream worlds coming into existence via those dream people dreaming as well.
There supposedly should exist a Subspace (called a dark mirror world) for every Subcon as well, with Merlon's counterpart alluding to there being a dark version of all things. Something seen with Flipside having Flopside, as well as what we are presented with there being a flipside world for Paper Mario's universe.
I'll be addressing some expected counter arguments in the form of questions to streamline some of the incoming discussion:
Why are you using the English version of Mario Odyssey?
Re: Mario says that this is the game version he officially stars in and even then, the localizations can take a secondary canon backseat in giving more info so as long as contradictions aren't made if the Japanese version is the original source material by date of release to the public and said version is supervised/collaborated in creation by the Japanese developers.
Why is this random alien's word an authority about World 4 and what if he's saying hyperbole?
Re: As the alien contextually says this knowledge confidently and as a way to praise the heroes after the Void goes away of who they saved, and with Tippi even backing up his own claim with also further accepting this knowledge of the state of World 4 not being finite when looking at the doorway to the dimension, this heavily leans to him having some unknown understanding of that universe that we should take at face value when it is said in an informal, respectful manner to the heroes on the lives they saved. Prior to this comparison of this space to what the heroes accomplished, he considers the universe to be infinite. Even Tiptron (a robot) gives the same adjective for her evaluation lines as Tippi when examining where the green dimensional door leads to, which would be redundant to repost. The conclusion from that statement fairly lends toward there being a correlated number of dream worlds spawned by these individuals.This wouldn’t be the first time we had a psychic alien that can examine outer space / the universe without moving. The other alternative I have heard is assuming he’s insane (and Tippi is too!) rather than lying, which I’m just going to ignore
How can the Paper Mario verse contribute to the dream worlds held in the overall cosmology?
Re: The dream world itself that Luigi / Bowser has in Dream Team is presented as not being tied to the "real world" via Dreambert's words as its scope even as it does tangibly exist and can be interacted with by real world beings, so that would indicate that the Subcons are not tied to the book nor within the book (even should we treat the book being opened as a portal) and established to have their separated dimensional spaces as shown in Mario and Luigi: Dream Team.
To involve the events of Super Mario Bros 2 directly with the existence of Subcon, there are paper versions of Shy Guys, and the Paper Mario verse setting is supposed to be parallel shown with Wendy's convo with her brother of having paper selves.
The official bio from Mario Superstar Baseball has them all be henchmen/creations of Wart as their origin, this would support the same narration posited rule of there being a Subcon for each and every being who dreams with paper counterparts of the characters seen within Super Mario Bros 2:
"A charming, masked soldier. Shy Guys used to serve an evil king named Wart, but they nowadays make a lot of cameo appearances as friendly rivals of Mario. That said, they aren't always good... On the baseball mound, Shy Guys are consistent players with a few weaknesses."
Does the Void actually affect the entire cosmology from beyond the Paper Mario verse?
Re: There are items that have entered the book from the outside of the Paper Mario verse; showing some dimensional travel interaction had already occurring prior to the events of the prophecy starting the end of "all worlds", "everything" as foretold in the dark prophecy book that could come true (if it weren't for those meddling heroes!). There's no reason that this "world" would be spared when the paper characters view it as such being simply another "world", using such same descriptors as other "worlds" for the different dimensions they visit during the events of Super Paper Mario. The assured accuracy of the prophecy promised by the book being correctly followed would be contradicted with the regular verse being spared, since it should be a part of "everything" and just "another world" in context of these events.
Fin.
If we have character profiles for Luigi, Peach, or Bowser eventually being made for their paper counterparts then this tier upgrade would apply to them as well with a Pure Hearts key,
Foundation:
There exist as many Subcons for as many dreamers in existence as stipulated in-game during BS Super Mario Bros USA (this is the English translation of the Japanese audio):
"Narrator: Subcon, the land of dreams. A long time ago in this land [audio gap] thanks to the actions of these four. Wart had his mouth filled with many vegetables and was kicked out of Subcon. However, there was not just one Subcon. There are as many Subcons as there are people's dreams, and Wart was secretly moving from dream to dream, causing trouble."
Every Subcon is indicated to be a universe in its own right based on the individual Subcon dream world that Mario had actively brought back to its peaceful and normal state.
There are realistic cosmic stars held within these parallel Subcons, as indicated by the official game guide with levels without stars and a moon and shown for levels with a moon and stars.
Citations:
https://nintendo.fandom.com/wiki/Super_Mario_Bros._2_Inside_Out
https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Mario_Bros._Encyclopedia
Argument 1:
"Infinite ghosts exist (but it is not from the ScareScraper!)"
Going off the Super Mario Odyssey official Nintendo licensed guide, there is a secret location found via pipe in the Ancient Kingdom where there is an already existing infinite number of ghosts and one Chargin' Chuck populating it in the lore the book presents the reader.
Excerpt from this guidebook:
"Open the Moon Rock and a strange pipe emerges right next to the Odyssey. Duck into it to find a strange world populated with infinite Chinchos, and a Chargin' Chuck."
These Chinchos are said to be ghosts and this is noted by their ethereal appearance.
There are numerous sources that show that ghosts need sleep and do dream as naturally in the verse:
o In Mario Party 5; the Stars invite a regular Boo, a ghost, to the Dream Depot since it has the ability to dream.
o In the Luigi's Mansion series, ghosts want to sleep and do so naturally. Even getting annoyed when they can't sleep.
o In Super Mario Galaxy series, the ghosts are shown to sleep as well.
o In Bowser's Inside Story Yikk's ghost speaks of him sleeping and his dreams.
Another Official Super Mario Odyssey Nintendo licensed guidebook for the game supplements that the ghosts should have also dreamed during while they were still alive Tostarenans prior to becoming ghosts by dying.
Excerpt from this guidebook:
"Considerably less savvy in the world of tourism, the Moe-Eye possess an ability the Tostarenans can only dream of."
Citations:
"The Art of Super Mario Odyssey"
"Super Mario Odyssey Prima Collector's Edition Guide"
"Super Mario Odyssey: Kingdom Adventures Travel Companion Volume 1 Prima Guide"
Argument 2:
"Infinite dream(er)s & hope(r)s exist according to an alien in Super Paper Mario during World 4 when you come back to visit after defeating the final boss"
Excerpt of the English translation from the Japanese version of the game:
"A young alien from the planet Puranēn..."
"Without leaving this planet, he thinks of the infinite universe."
"The universe spreads infinitely...and it's filled with hopes and dreams..."
"Thank you very much for protecting the world together!" -Translation credits to ZeroTwo
Here are the English versions of the lines used in question as they pertain most to this topic.
By analyzing this quote made, one can simply interpret that the alien here references an infinite number of certain off-screen creatures already alive in order to literally fill up this space with beings that sleep and dream (You can observe a sleeping being of course) and them coming to that conclusion based on knowing life completely throughout this infinite universe has dreaming capable organisms.
To go on with this train of thought, this can be exemplified for another alien living in this space that Tippi can determine he is capable of dreaming when she scans him during his sleep (sleeping next to Mario), and he can be examined by her special tattle ability while he sleeps to demonstrate that he dreams a heartfelt thing while sleeping.
Excerpt of the English translation from the Japanese version of the game:
"The alien child "Squirps", whose real name is "Squirp Korogaline Squirpina". Concerning his true identity, he was formerly the prince of the prospering Squirpia Kingdom of this universe...His dream is for the kingdom to someday be restored..." -Translation credits to LuckyEmile (Alice)
Argument 3:
"An Infinite number of pieces of paint make infinite dream worlds."
Side note here, I am just going off how paint is presented only in the Paper Mario verse since Color Splash paint isn't confirmed to be the exact same and share the same properties/source available outside of the Paper Mario verse such as for Regular Bowser Jr's paintbrush's paint making a sleepy Fat Boo and sleeping Petey Piranha in Super Mario Sunshine or the paint that is used to make Vincent Van Gore's ghost enemies in Luigi's Mansion; being washed by water in the former for Sunshine enemies.
The ending of Color Splash shows black paint makes up visible "outer space" as well for the Paper Mario verse, where even before this revelation we see a singular color fill in a paper background that starts as solid and becomes a hole.
Bowser forms Black Lava Bubbles solely from the black paint he spills off, which going by it being alike to all black paint that originated when coloring spaces like World 4 and bringing it into existence, black paint shows an equivalent physiology to the Lava Bubbles (a ghost species) that should be capable of dreaming individually as different sentient parts in its primordial form and even returns to be absorbed by Bowser as being simply referenced as still being simply black paint. Ghosts have proven to sleep and dream as I have repeatedly pointed out in Argument 1. The physiology of these same things can be affected in Paper Mario and Paper Mario: The Thousand Year Door by the sleep status effect.
Ignoring that, the Paint Stars are shown to sleep on their own being just a collection of specific paint colors and black paint is the result of mixing the paints they expel, which Antasma has (vaguely) indicated all sleeping beings simply make dreams when gathering dream energy regardless of species, which further hints that paint on its own would cause dream worlds to come into existence. Obviously, just sleeping on its own isn't perfect evidence that something dreams using our real-life examples of creatures, but that action strongly supports this idea that paints contribute to the number of existing dream worlds.
Argument 4:
"Infinite amounts of pieces of paper make infinite dream worlds."
In Color Splash, we are shown a scene of a paintless toad made only of blank regular, inanimate, and immobile paper being given paint by Mario and he states that he had a nightmare (in the Japanese version. In the English he outright states he had a whole deal with Wart showing up which is obviously a nod to Super Mario Bros 2)
So, it is presented that paper in the Paper Mario verse can dream on its own.
Space itself is made up of paper:
The sliced environment during Color Splash leaves a white void when paper is sliced.
The dimensional boundaries to outer space / World 4 from the Whoa Zone are constituted of paper.
Ending Notes:
Is that it? Not quite. Some notes on the dream cosmology as currently it works:
Dream Worlds are treated as being separately made and one cannot reach into another one conventionally, as shown with Luigi being normally unable to reach inside Bowser's dream from his dreams during Neo Bowser Castle events.
In SMB2 and Dream Team; dream people can be created inside the dreams, and falling asleep inside those dreams is possible and would correlate to more dream worlds coming into existence via those dream people dreaming as well.
There supposedly should exist a Subspace (called a dark mirror world) for every Subcon as well, with Merlon's counterpart alluding to there being a dark version of all things. Something seen with Flipside having Flopside, as well as what we are presented with there being a flipside world for Paper Mario's universe.
I'll be addressing some expected counter arguments in the form of questions to streamline some of the incoming discussion:
Why are you using the English version of Mario Odyssey?
Re: Mario says that this is the game version he officially stars in and even then, the localizations can take a secondary canon backseat in giving more info so as long as contradictions aren't made if the Japanese version is the original source material by date of release to the public and said version is supervised/collaborated in creation by the Japanese developers.
Why is this random alien's word an authority about World 4 and what if he's saying hyperbole?
Re: As the alien contextually says this knowledge confidently and as a way to praise the heroes after the Void goes away of who they saved, and with Tippi even backing up his own claim with also further accepting this knowledge of the state of World 4 not being finite when looking at the doorway to the dimension, this heavily leans to him having some unknown understanding of that universe that we should take at face value when it is said in an informal, respectful manner to the heroes on the lives they saved. Prior to this comparison of this space to what the heroes accomplished, he considers the universe to be infinite. Even Tiptron (a robot) gives the same adjective for her evaluation lines as Tippi when examining where the green dimensional door leads to, which would be redundant to repost. The conclusion from that statement fairly lends toward there being a correlated number of dream worlds spawned by these individuals.This wouldn’t be the first time we had a psychic alien that can examine outer space / the universe without moving. The other alternative I have heard is assuming he’s insane (and Tippi is too!) rather than lying, which I’m just going to ignore
How can the Paper Mario verse contribute to the dream worlds held in the overall cosmology?
Re: The dream world itself that Luigi / Bowser has in Dream Team is presented as not being tied to the "real world" via Dreambert's words as its scope even as it does tangibly exist and can be interacted with by real world beings, so that would indicate that the Subcons are not tied to the book nor within the book (even should we treat the book being opened as a portal) and established to have their separated dimensional spaces as shown in Mario and Luigi: Dream Team.
To involve the events of Super Mario Bros 2 directly with the existence of Subcon, there are paper versions of Shy Guys, and the Paper Mario verse setting is supposed to be parallel shown with Wendy's convo with her brother of having paper selves.
The official bio from Mario Superstar Baseball has them all be henchmen/creations of Wart as their origin, this would support the same narration posited rule of there being a Subcon for each and every being who dreams with paper counterparts of the characters seen within Super Mario Bros 2:
"A charming, masked soldier. Shy Guys used to serve an evil king named Wart, but they nowadays make a lot of cameo appearances as friendly rivals of Mario. That said, they aren't always good... On the baseball mound, Shy Guys are consistent players with a few weaknesses."
Does the Void actually affect the entire cosmology from beyond the Paper Mario verse?
Re: There are items that have entered the book from the outside of the Paper Mario verse; showing some dimensional travel interaction had already occurring prior to the events of the prophecy starting the end of "all worlds", "everything" as foretold in the dark prophecy book that could come true (if it weren't for those meddling heroes!). There's no reason that this "world" would be spared when the paper characters view it as such being simply another "world", using such same descriptors as other "worlds" for the different dimensions they visit during the events of Super Paper Mario. The assured accuracy of the prophecy promised by the book being correctly followed would be contradicted with the regular verse being spared, since it should be a part of "everything" and just "another world" in context of these events.
Fin.
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