Skill Wars: The Skill Awakens

Ionliosite said:

>The Skill Awakens
So this is where the Mary Sue of Skill appears, heh.

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• Red Hare who has mastered every combat style that exists, even allowing him to engage in aerial and underwater combat despite being a horse. Moreover, despite Li's absolutely ludicrous skill advantage, Red Hare was still able to hold him off, and is considered on par with Morded or Seigfried. I should note that Red Hare is rather low-tier in the Servant skill meta.
• Li Shuwen, who, as a 170 year old human, matched Red Hare and nearly killed him after casually knocking out Tamamo Witch. He's also a master among masters in terms of Bajiquan, and for context Kirei Kotomine's Bajiquan is absolute garbage in comparision despite its obscene lethality. Even as a weaponless Lancer, which handicaps him by a lot since he can't use the vast majority of his ability, he still memed on Beowulf who's sword automatically make the most optimal slash possible, and with a weapon he was still considered equal to Hōzōin despite being handicapped by the class container itself.
• Scathath, who taught Cu everything he knows and has killed several Divine Spirits (read: Gods) through her martial skill alone. Additionally, her knowledge is such that she completely surpasses any human existence and can utilize almost any skill, lacking only ones that are unique to individual people like Gawain's Numeral of the Saint.
• Hōzōin Inshun, who's skill treads into the realm of Gods and the Buddha, and who's eleven techniques allow him to cope with and match people who are faster, stronger, more conventionally skilled, or who utilize bizarre attacks, weapons, or even magecraft. He's also considered to be one with his spear and his attacks are completely unreadable or able to be analyzed, similar to Sasaki but overall worse.
• Karna, who completely shit stomps Siegfriend when he attemps to abuse his armor, with Sieg himself having long since surpassed human possibility, with Karna himself treading into the territory of the Gods. He was also considered the single most dangerous Servant in his entire Grail War, with only Achilles, who is only surpassed as a student of Chiron by Hercules, coming anywhere close. Even while holding back, he matched Vlad III despite the latter being several degrees of bullshit.
• and way, way more than I could put in a post of reasonable length.

• Sasaki's skill is vastly superior to that of divine possibility and completely transcends human existence. He is vastly superior to Hercules as a Saber, who should outclass his Archer form which was Chiron's greatest student and surpassed even Arash, who casually breaks the limits of the bow as easily as he breathes. Moreover, Tsubame Gaeshi itself is his sheer dedication and form sublimated into a skill that replicates True Magic, distorting physics and causality, through his skill with a sword alone and that, even while he was still a human, became a Mystery on the level of a full fledged Noble Phantasm. Not even Gilgamesh, who is superior to Karna, has any chance against him in close combat.
  
  This is all base Sasaki, who is incomparably surpassed by his Infinity self. Rather than merely attacking with three strikes using Tsubame Gaeshi, Infinity answers with infinite strikes all at once, as it is a blade that accepts and creates all possibilities, creating a future that not even Gods nor Buddhas can escape.
• Musashi is much more obviously bullshit, as her skill was sublimated into her ability to cut fate, causality, karma, death, and outcomes. Absolutely no one other than Yagyu or Sasaki has any chance against her in a skill-based fight, as she has achieved Nothingness, an unreachable sky that not even True Magic cannot normally reach. Moreover, she can focus her entire existence towards accomplishing a task, be this mind, body, or soul, allowing her to bend time and space as she desires to make the perfect stroke. Musashi also defeated Sasaki at once point.
  
  As with Sasaki, this was merely base Musashi, who is absolute garbage compared to Zero Musashi. Zero is her own personal form of Suigetsu that allows her to shave existence down to a singular, definite outcome and even create new ones. This allowed her to counter a casual Yagyu's Suigetsu, which accounts for and counters all existence and possiblities simultaneously. She can also create outcomes that are inescapable even for Gods or Buddhas.

• Red Hare thing was more with mastering all Martial Arts iirc, which it isn't as impressive as it seems since a lot of martial arts aren't made to combat. It's really aerial and underwater combat that impressive? although it should be inferior to Fugil who can do aerial combat even with things that can't fly or frozen or paralyzed. I mean, if you are skilled enough you can fight in every kind of ground, doesn't matter if it is aerial or underwater, there is no need to have an style for everything, so no, knowing how to fight aerially and/or underwater isn't that impressive, it's more impressive the mastering all martial arts.

• Again, him being that age doesn't make it exactly more impressive, sure, he is old, but he still have great condition if he can fight againts a Servant. Bajiquian sounds very good, but it isn't something even Lux can make, Lux can literally cut parts of his opponent without damaging their skin, he doesn't need to see the attack or even perceive the attack to dodge or block it. Lux fights opponents 10x faster than him, so the 3x faster is not really that impressive when you compare them (I'm talking about if you compare them to the 10x, not that it isn't very impressive), even if you say Li Shuwen is superior to Kirei and that Yagyu is superior to both, you can't say it is even close to 10x withou feats. Again, I will take Lux as an example, he was memeing on three elite Drag-Knights even when massively handicapped by a lot of weight making him even slower than before (take into account that Lux's Drag-Ride is already slower than your regular Drag-Ride), none of them could even touch him despite the massive difference in speed.

• Scathach seems a bit superior to Red Hare, I guess. But Fugil literally taught everything to Lux and Fugil is far superior to Lux kinda in everything. And Fugil also masters everything every other Drag-Knight do and better (an example would be when he used Typhon to fight againts 5 of the Seven Dragon Paladins and Aeril by himself, despite Philuffy just has the skill to match one)

• Yeah, Lux's Three Hidden Techniques alows him to do the same thing to match people stronger, faster, durable, more skilled, with a bunch of different weapons, supernatural abilities (nd before you mention he does this because of Reload on Fire, its not, Reload on Fire isn't really that special in-verse) and stuff like that. Define "being one with the spear", becuase Drag-Knighs have to become one with their Drag-Ride too to even start using them. And their attacks being incapable to be readed is something Mishis does, she literally trained for her movements to not be readed, and this is just one of the things she does.

• So Mishis versus Fugil again? Mishis surpasses humanity and she can counter every type of Drag-Ride and she was stomped by Fugil extremely casually. I don't know what Vald does, so I can't argue here.

• Ikr, the post is long, but you still need more

• Trascending humans is something Mishis does, and she is completely outskilled by Fugil (not even taking into account the scale that is superior to her). Any feat with the bow? Because saying "casually breaks the limits of the bow as easily as he breathes" it's okay, but I think you need more feats rather than just saying that. Tsubame Gaeshi is just an inferior End Action, gg But really, he is breaking physics with his swor, even if you take the "can attack in three different places at the same time" it gets outdone by End Action. And the last part just seems Probability Manip, so I'm just going to skip that seems it isn't really skill.

• Ok, I guess? It seems more like hax, specially the second part.

• Its mainly impressive because Red Hare is, well, a horse. He doesn't have wings or anything like that to just conventionally fight in those situations. Being able to counter someone who constantly floats outside of your range or something similar solely with melee weapons, especially considering how skilled the vast majority of Servants are, is rather impressive.
• The age is there to show the sheer AP gap between the two, and yeah he was probably similar to Kaku Kaioh in this aspect. Tbh i never understood the 10x speed argument. Like, Fu Xiaoli doing that is obvious bullshit for various reasons, so can you post the scan of that? Simply countering faster opponents can make sense depending on the explaination, but that kind of gap is larger than the gap between me running and the top speed of most cars, so the signals your brain sends out will only barely be able to get to where they need to be in time if they can at all, much less be able to move as much as you need to.
• The skills, and yes these are actual skill-based abilities and not just called skills, that Scathath can just give herself because of her sublimated knowledge includes various forms of precog, seeing through obstacles, sniping people from dozens of kilometers away, Sasaki and Hozin's thing where you can't adapt to their shit, and more.
• I probably would've said it was RoF lol. Magecraft in Nasuverse is insanely varied, ranging from conceptual weapons, to mystic eyes, to Reality Marbles, to just straight up physics and law manip, to stuff that treads on True Magic. "One with the spear" means that he can use it with the same ease as his own body. It should be noted that Knowledge of Respect and Harmony also makes your attacks invisible to servants, who can see living concepts and conceptless voids.
• I see. It's also notable that, even as a Lancer, Karna can match Arjuna in terms of archery, and Arjuna is the most skilled Archer we currently know of bar none. Vlad can do stuff like force the state of "already pierced by stakes" onto you while you're in his territory, which actually bypassed Karna's K&K entirely.
• I'll post some more later, since this is the best stuff that I remembered off the top of my head.

• Arash is able to outright see the future, through objects, and even read people's minds due to his high rank of Clairvoyance. He also very easily uses Stella, which has a max range of 2,500 kilometers, and considers a 20km shot a warmup. There are literal scans for this on Sasaki's page, which basically say the same thing I did. End Action is not even remotely comparable to this unless Lux's page is missing literally everything related to it, because all the page says it is is cuing up commands. Tsubame Gaeshi does all three strikes at once. There is no time lag or anything, its entire purpose is to be three simultaneous attacks that block off all forms of escape. The hax is caued by his Infinity state, which is basically the culmination of his technique, so it is skill-based.
• Again, even if it is hax, it's still skill-based because Personal Skills are sublimations of things that the Servant achieved in life. Zero is like Infinity, its the culmination of Musashi's technique and therefore skill-based in addition to the aforementioned reasons.

• Yeah, neither did Fugil when he fought like that, he can fight with or without wings mid-air. In fact, I don't even need Fugil for this example, Philuffy is enough, she fights against opponents that can flight and she don't have the capacity to do that and she does it with melee weapons too. It's not like Drag-Knights are not skilled either.

• Lux has also faced opponents that can literally one-shot him by being 10x stronger than him and he wins via "I'm untouchable". Here is one of the quotes of Lux fighting against someone 10x faster:

• And I'm not doubting they are skill-based, I just don't have examples of them. And seeing living concepts and conceptless voids it's not really that impressive, about the living concepts because they are LIVING beings with flesh and blood, it's not like they are invisible, the same applies to Kama. There are attacks in Bahamut that makes you unperceivable even to people who can see invisible beings.

• Ok, it's not like fighting against hax somehow makes you more skilled, its practically even more unquantifiable. Then yes, Drag-Knights does the exact same thing of becoming one with their Drag-Ride since they have to learn how to move it as if it were they own body.

• I still don't get feats from Arjuna, I don't know what the guy does. Facing someone who can bypass your protection is pretty common in Bahamut, for example, Iblis' Mental Pollution simply bypasses your barriers.

• Yeah, Lux can also see into the future and make people act like if he was controlling them by his predictions and iirc Lux also reads the chain of thoughts of his opponents. Yeah, he's shooting from far away, then? I don't really have much to say about that since I don't think that's a big deal. You totally don't understand End Action if you say is just cuing commands, its whole purpose is to make hundreds to thousands of slashes with minimal lag between them causing it to have simultaneous slashes (of course, not one thousand slashes happen at the same time, it takes a few seconds for that, but it can make several dozen of them simultaneously). And it's not like Tsubame Gaeshi cannot be countered, End Action counters it perfectly fine. No, hax is hax, it doesn't matter if it comes from your skill, it's the same as cutting concepts via skill, you can't logically do that.

• Again, it is illogical to create all possibilities by making a sword slash, no matter how you look at it, no matter if it's said in verse that it's made via skill. Then I guess I can say Reload on Fire counts as skill because it's stated that you need skill to use the Divine Raiments of the Drag-Rides.

• Well, all Servants are someone who was notorious enough for their exploits to be sublimated into definite skills by the Throne of Heroes. Even if they aren't combat focused, like Mata Hari, they are all extremely skilled in their own ways.
• That's about the same as Fu Xiaoli actually. Evading an attack that's far faster than the nerve signals in your own body via s k i l l. It makes about as much sense.
• Ah yes, because living concepts are made of flesh and blood. That makes all of the sense. Also, Servants seeing Kama is considered a feat for them, not an antifeat for Kama.
• Being able to effectively fight in a space that literally does whatever the **** the caster wants is definitely up there feat-wise.
• Arjuna's basic shots are so accurate that they're compared to outright homing attacks and he stomps Billy the Kid with some issues, whose skill with a gun is such that he can see an opponent draw, draw himself, and fire with time to spare even without Thunderer and is called a once-in-a-century genius in regards to gunplay, being one of the most skilled Archers despite his very low Mystery.
• Vlad's thing is a combo of concept and causality manip, so well above Bahamut stuff i'd say.
• The skill is him having the accuracy to actually hit people at that range, which he does for obvious reasons and rather easily at that. I'm understanding End Action from what is on Lux's page, which states approximately **** all of the stuff you're saying it does and that is still ludicrously inferior to Tsubame Gaeshi. Even your version of End Action has some time lag, Tsubame Gaeshi doesn't. Tsubame Gaeshi > End Action. Case closed. Also, tell that to damn near everyone on the list.
• It is also highly illogical to dodge attacks faster than the nerve impulses in your body that would let you dodge said attacks, learn someone's entire personality by seeing them hold a sword, and god knows what other insanely shit is on this list. My point is that your argument doesn't work unless you want to disqualify damn near every skill feat used here. Ah yes, nice big brain strawman. "It takes skill to use this thing that lets you do another thing, so the other thing is skill-based!!!!11!!!!one"

• Drag-Knighs aren't focused in only one thing, they are more variated, but I take that Servants are hyperspecialized in that thing they are good at, so it is really difficult to say what's better.

• Meh, if you think it makes as much sense ok, I won't try to change your oppinion about it.

• Yes, living concepts are living for a reason, and Kama doesn't even have insibility or something similar in that note, so its not a feat nor an anti-feat.

• And how do they beat that? Or it is just as stupid as Ikki defeating Amane?

• Ah, so just like Krulcifer. For example, here is a small example of what Krulcifer does:

• Above in hax? Yes. Above in skill? Not really quantifiable, dealing with hax is not a quantifiable skill feat, its like Captain America facing Galactus or something like that. And how do they beat that if she couldn't stop it? Just for curiosity.

• End Action are dozens of attacks at the same time, it doesn't have a time lag between that dozen, and the time lag between the hundreds it makes is minimal, Tsubame Gaeshi also doesn't have it but it is just three atacks. Agin, End Action counters Tsubami Gaeshi perfectly fine, Tsubame Gaeshi is attacking from three different directions at the same time, End Action makes several dozen of attacks at the same time, it blocks all of them and still can continue fighting with that.

Firephoenixearl said:

Ohoho? So i can argue against fugil? Noice.

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Hl3 or bust said:

Your sarcasm is unnecessary, as the only reason Yagyu isnt objectively #1 is because the goalposts have bottle rockets attached to them.

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Creaturemaster971 said:

@Fire
Yes I did. Your point about the different fighting styles countering each other is something I hadn't considered. Either way, the feats in Knight Run seem to be above most of the Carter feats. The main thing Carter and his compatriots have going for them is their insane learning speed. What does Knight Run have in that regard?

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Hl3 or bust said:

Dunno bout that chief, Ikki and Edel got there just fine...

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