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Trigon downgrade, and Nabu and The Batman Who Laughs upgrade

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Everything in the first post of this thread seems uncontroversial to apply, except for the tier with preparations increase for TBWL, as Mar Novu was presented as being very weak at the time of his captivity after just having reformed, so it seems too uncertain.
 
Antvasima said:
Everything in the first post of this thread seems uncontroversial to apply
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I think the change for Trigon is fine but his profile needs a larger revision. Nabu and Unbound Spectre are already the same tier and I don't support making any further changes like removing "superior to Nabu" from Corrigan or adding "possibly higher" to Nabu.
 
Antvasima said:
I thought that Nabu has "2-A" whereas Spectre has "At least 2-A, possibly higher" or "2-A, possibly higher".
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He does, but Spectre's possibly higher is based on the variability of his power (which comes from the Presence.) In the scene where he kills Nabu, Nabu directly implies that his power is being drained by Eclipso and that he should be able to crush Nabu in an instant.
 
Well, that the extra power that he absorbed should have enabled him to easily defeat Nabu unless it went somewhere else.

Noted about the variable power level though.
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, Corrigan can keep "superior to Nabu", but the two were presented as almost comparable, so I think that Nabu should have the same tier.

Trigon needs a bigger revision, yes.
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Nabu wasn't actually stated to be comparable to Jim, Kent on the other hand, who's significantly weaker than Nabu, was, and Deagon himself admitted this.

Deagon is arguing the evidence supports Spectre>Fate and Unbound>Nabu, which I agree to. My point is that they are relative, and I haven't seen Deagon write a counter against that.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, that the extra power that he absorbed should have enabled him to easily defeat Nabu unless it went somewhere else.

Noted about the variable power level though.
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He's hiding the context here. Please refer to this-
Transcending said:
That's not what happened. Before this fight, Spectre was killing all the Lords of Order and Chaos and killed everyone except Nabu. He took their magic. This is an amp to Spectre's usual power, and Eclipso drained this amp.
Click to expand...
 
Deagonx said:
The possibility of it being something does not negate the fact that he is implied to be affected
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Your interpretation doesn't have any more basis than mine. Your argument is based on a vague scan, which you yourself just admitted here. You would be Appealing to Possibility if you try to say your possibility is the truth over mine without any definitive evidence.
Deagonx said:
The circumstances are far too vague to assign tier 2. The "Unknown with prep" is sufficient for such a case
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The circumstances aren't vague, the only question is if Mar Novu was physically weakened when BWL beat him or mentally. Saying he was physically weakened to a significant degree is your claim. The comic neither mentioned him being physically weakened nor being significantly so. Your claim is what's vague, not mine.

I provided a few paragraphs to explain why the Monitor being weakened wouldn't affect his tiering above. You are claiming the Monitor got weakened to a significant degree, so his tiering must have been affected. But the comic never implied he got significantly weakened, even its implication of being weakened could be a reference to mentality.

So there's no reason for my claim to be invalid, your vague claim can be dismissed however.
Deagonx said:
Or your concept of how it works is fundamentally flawed. Stop writing headcanon
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Again, Ultima confirmed my concept. Saying mine is flawed would be saying Ultima's is flawed. Are you seriously asserting your understanding of the Tiering System is above his?
 
I would like to ask @Antvasima and others to wait a bit before giving their input. I am in the process of making a fairly important post and I would like everyone to see that first.
 
Deagonx said:
There's no information that indicates this. I agree with Ant on the matter. I don't feel the need to go in circles about it.
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What do you think about my other conclusions here?
Transcending said:
Yeah but he was still Tier 2.
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I don't think that we are able to properly gauge a specific tier for the extremely weakened Mar Novu.
 
Antvasima said:
Yes, Corrigan can keep "superior to Nabu", but the two were presented as almost comparable, so I think that Nabu should have the same tier.

Trigon needs a bigger revision, yes.
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So re: this, I agree. The only possible change is adding "possibly higher" to Nabu which I think isn't warranted here. Is there something else I'm missing?
 
Well, it seems straigthforward to add "possibly higher" to Nabu. Why is that a problem for you?
 
Antvasima said:
Well, it seems straigthforward to add "possibly higher" to Nabu. Why is that a problem for you?
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Well the reason we have it for Spectre is because of his varying power level. Even throughout the fight the variability of his power is mentioned. He has to muster up enough energy with which to kill Nabu. It's possibly higher because he can keep gathering more magic (Nabu stated if he had access to the magic he'd been collecting throughout the event he'd have crushed Nabu instantly) but Nabu doesn't have that variability.
 
@Antvasima; I will try to summarize everything for you and others.

A) So in the beginning, Deagon gave some scans against my argument for Nabu~Unbound Spectre. This is his first scan. He's claiming because Kent said the power of Nabu was nothing to the Spectre's, Spectre is superior. First issue with this is that Kent wasn't referring to Nabu alone, he was referring to Nabu hosted by him. We know this because:

1: Kent was fighting Spectre, and he said this statement based on how he fought against Spectre. So it wouldn't make sense for him to refer to a hostless Nabu, as he has no knowledge over how Nabu would do. Kent says clearly-


image.png

It's as I feared! Even the power of Nabu is no match for the wrath of the Spectre!
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Kent is clearly saying Nabu's power is nothing for the Spectre, in the fight, because he can't fight properly. It wouldn't make sense for him to confirm Nabu alone cannot do anything, as Nabu was not even fighting. He could have only confirmed his fears based on how he is able to fight. So for this, Kent was referring to Nabu hosted by him.

2: Spectre says this clearly-

image.png

You are a Lord of Order, incarnated in the human form of Kent Nelson--and that is your weakness.
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Spectre explicitly and clearly says that Fate's weakness here was that he was hosted by a human and is not as powerful as True Nabu. So again, the scan was a reference to Fate(Kent) and not Nabu.

3: Spectre himself said Kent is nearly as powerful as him

7323781-5sf3ktk.jpg

So Spectre cannot be vastly above Fate, if Spectre was infinitely superior, he wouldn't have called Kent relative.

So in conclusion, Deagon's statement only applies to Fate, not Nabu.

B) Onwards to my next point, Deagon showed this scan, where Fate called Spectre the most powerful being in creation. The first issue is that, we have no evidence this "creation" refers to the Map. Creation could refer to the Orrery as well, and actually, I can't remember a single instance of "creation" being used to refer to the Map before the Metal era. We have evidence for creation referring to the Orrery though, plenty of times. The first example is the Multiversity Map, which also directly places the Lords of Order above Creation. If you cannot see it, WonderWorld was stated to orbit creation in the Map(WW orbits the Orrery) and Order was explicitly placed above it-

image.png

image.png

The second example of Creation=Orrery comes from Final Crisis-

image.png

That should be enough for now.

The second issue is that, I never argued Nabu is more powerful than Spectre, I only argued Nabu is relative to Spectre. So Spectre can be more powerful than him and my point stands.

So conclusion? Fate wasn't necessarily referring to Nabu, and even if he was, that wouldn't change my point. I will also add that by wiki rules, feats>statements. So the above statement, even if it supported Deagon, wouldn't go against me, as that's a statement which is contradicted by a feat supporting me.

C) Next up, he argued that because Nabu said "Why is it taking you so long to kill me, Spectre? You've devoured so much raw magic over the past few days, you should have been able to crush me in an instant. Ask yourself -- where did all that magic you captured actually go?", that Spectre can crush Nabu in an instant. The issue with this, is that the magic Nabu is referring to is an amp onto Spectre's base power. Before Nabu fought him, Spectre had been killing all the Lords of Order and Chaos. In the end, before his fight with Nabu, Spectre managed to kill everyone except Nabu, the most powerful Lord of the ninth age of magic

image.png

Onto Deagon's scan, Nabu was actually saying this magic, that he got from the Lords was absorbed by Eclipso. Nabu says clearly-
But you have devoured so much raw magic over the past few days. You should have been able to crush me in an instant.
Click to expand...
Spectre then says-
I destroyed it.
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Nabu was very explicitly talking about the amp in magic Spectre received. He talks about how much raw magic Spectre devoured over the past few days, which can only refer to the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre then says he destroyed that magic. So did he destroy his base form?

The conclusion is very simple. Nabu's statements have no relations to how they can fight in base. Nabu was only referring to how Spectre would crush him when Spectre had his own powers amped by the magic of the Lords of Order and Chaos. Spectre had his usual powers in his fight and yet Nabu was able to match him.

D) Deagon's next argument is that Spectre killed him in the fight, and so that he's superior. The issue with this is that Nabu purposefully died. He came there to let Spectre kill him so that the ninth age of magic ends and wouldn't linger on. This is so that the a fresh tenth age of magic begins, and because The Presence would give Spectre a new host, meaning he wouldn't continue rampaging across existence. And even during this incident, when Nabu wanted to die, Spectre didn't easily kill him, he had to grasp everywhere at once to get just the amount of magic needed to kill Nabu.

The alternative to Nabu dying was Nabu managing to convince Spectre to stop his rampage and make him see reason, after which they would both work together restore the ninth age. This actually only supports my point, as this shows Nabu was possibly holding back but definitely did not want to win or genuinely fight. If Nabu managed to beat Spectre, the outcome would overall be against the world, since a broken ninth age would continue to prevail. So Nabu wanted to either reason with Spectre or die. Neither options led him to victory. The reasoning part obviously failed though, so Nabu kept on angering Spectre, until he lost all reason and control-

image.png

It works! The last vestige of his reason and control snaps!
Click to expand...
Nabu throughout the fight was trying to trigger Spectre as much as possible so Spectre kills him, and even when Spectre pushed himself beyond to his utmost limits, Nabu didn't instantly die, rather, he continued talking, a LOT, and even managed to give away his helment. So Nabu is consistently relative to Spectre, and him dying doesn't prove anything.

E) He said Unbound Spectre has "possibly higher" because the Presence can give Spectre more power. However, where is it stated that's the reason Spectre has it? I would like to see evidence.

Alright, so that's all for the Nabu section. Now let's get to BWL!

F) Deagon is arguing Mar Novu was weakened when BWL fought him. For this, I don't feel like explaining again so I will just link to this-
Transcending said:
The only indication of the Monitor being weakened is him getting fragmented into Nil Monitors. That's all you have presented, and that's all there is to my knowledge. There's no indication something else weakened him, and to assume so would be just that, assuming.

So with that established, the Monitor could only have been weakened as much as the totality of the powers of the Monitors he was splitted into. If we split the number 10000 into 1000 and a 100, the value of the "new 10000" would be (10000-(1000+100)), that is, 8900. Similarly, we subtract the totality of the powers of the Monitors from normal Mar Novu to get the value of his power while weakened.

The Monitors are 4-B, and a finite number of them exists. So the totality of all their powers would also be finite, as 4-B itself is finite. Mar Novu on the other hand, is Tier 2. That's uncountably(uncountable infinity) above finity. So, we subtract finity from uncountable infinity, and this returns us uncountable infinity as any finite number subtracted from infinity returns infinity.

So the Monitor retains Tier 2. To be less than Tier 2, he had to have been weakened by an uncountably infinite amount, which is not possible when a finite number of Nil Monitors exist and each has a finite power.
Click to expand...
His response to this has problems like usual. For example, he responded to my second paragraph with-
Nope, total assumption. There is no indication of this whatsoever in the comic.
Click to expand...
However, my first paragraph was all about establishing why the comic does indicate this. Each of my paragraphs were a build-up to the next, they don't work if you ignore the previous paragraph. So his counter here makes no sense. If he's trying to suggest Mar Novu was weakened beyond the Monitors, he will need to explain what other than the Monitors fragmenting from him weakened him. If he cannot explain, assuming something other than the Monitors weakened Mar would be a total assumption. On the other hand, if he's saying the Monitors fragmenting from Mar weakened him more than the totality of their power, by an uncountably infinite amount, he will have to explain and prove that. It's an extraordinary claim. Using my previous analogy, if 10000 loses a 100 and a 1000, it's not going to reduce to 8000, it's going to reduce to 8900. The 900 doesn't go missing. If this is indeed Deagon's claim, I would like to know what happened to Mar's "900"(an uncountable infinity in his case, to be more precise)?

If he's claiming neither of these, I would like him to explain what exactly he's claiming. I will then write a suitable counter or concede.

I think that's the only counter for BWL he presented, if there's any counter I missed for BWL or Nabu other than the ones above, let me know and I will address it.

Now as for my last words-

1: Corrigan cannot keep his "superior to Nabu" under any circumstance. He was never shown to be on Nabu's level and we have actually seen Kent being relative to him and Nabu being relative to Unbound Spectre.

2: Deagon wrote this counter-
Well the reason we have it for Spectre is because of his varying power level. Even throughout the fight the variability of his power is mentioned. He has to muster up enough energy with which to kill Nabu. It's possibly higher because he can keep gathering more magic (Nabu stated if he had access to the magic he'd been collecting throughout the event he'd have crushed Nabu instantly) but Nabu doesn't have that variability.
Click to expand...
As I explained before, the extra magic he had gathered was an amp to his base power. So that wouldn't count, we don't give characters a higher rating just because they can gather extra power from others. We would just give them Absorption hax or something. If it's a permanent amp, we would give them a separate key or remove their unamped form from the page entirely if it only lasted for a few small time(like in the case of The Darkest Knight, we removed his "Pre-Crisis Energy" key).

That's all!
 
All three of those scans directly confirm that Nabu is weaker than Spectre, and Spectre soloed Nabu. They're already the same tier, but there's no reason to add a possibly to Nabu because it's based on Spectre's varying powers.

As for the Mar Novu thing, as Ant already said, he was greatly weakened and the situation is too vague for such an upgrade.
 
Deagonx said:
All three of those scans directly confirm that Nabu is weaker than Spectre, and Spectre soloed Nabu. They're already the same tier, but there's no reason to add a possibly to Nabu because it's based on Spectre's varying powers.

As for the Mar Novu thing, as Ant already said, he was greatly weakened and the situation is too vague for such an upgrade.
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That's literally just an Argument from Pigheadness
 
Well, Deagonx just makes an argument that the "possibly higher" part of The Spectre's tier is there solely due to that his power depends on how much of it that The Presence affords him at the time. It is a valid viewpoint. Meaning, Nabu scales from fighting The Spectre when the latter was at a 2-A power level.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, Deagonx just makes an argument that the "possibly higher" part of The Spectre's tier is there solely due to that his power depends on how much of it that The Presence affords him at the time. It is a valid viewpoint. Meaning, Nabu scales from fighting The Spectre when the latter was at a 2-A power level.
Click to expand...
He did say that's why Spectre has the "possibly higher", but we don't have any confirmation, do we? Generally in situations like this, people get a variable tier than a possibly higher.
 
What do you mean? Do you want to downgrade The Spectre in that regard?
 
Antvasima said:
What do you mean? Do you want to downgrade The Spectre in that regard?
Click to expand...
If Unbound Spectre has "possibly higher" just because the Presence can give him more power, without any evidence of the Spectre actually having ever wielded such a power, then yeah, I would support a downgrade.
 
Well, I do recall that in Neil Gaiman's Books of Magic story, John Constantine mentioned something regarding that The Spectre's power varies depending on how much that The Presence affords him at the time, but I may misremember the details.

Has it not been mentioned elsewhere as well?
 
Antvasima said:
Has it not been mentioned elsewhere as well?
Click to expand...
It has. It even came up in the fight against Nabu.


Transcending said:
That's literally just an Argument from Pigheadness
Click to expand...
No it isn't. Don't fling insults about simply because you are disasstified with how the argument meant. All your giant essay did was rehash the argument we just had.

The evidence is very clear. You writing a giant text wall about why we shouldn't interpret the evidence a certain way does not mean I am being "pigheaded" for not being persuaded by your attempts to paint over what the scans actually say
 
Antvasima said:
Well, I do recall that in Neil Gaiman's Books of Magic story, John Constantine mentioned something regarding that The Spectre's power varies depending on how much that The Presence affords him at the time, but I may misremember the details.

Has it not been mentioned elsewhere as well?
Click to expand...
I won't deny it being stated, but if that's the case he should get a variable tier rather than a possibly higher. This also means he could be any tier below High 1-A really, if we go by this logic. I just don't think we should rate Spectre higher when there's no evidence of him having ever wielded that much power. We would also have to give different ratings to people like Perpetua as her power depends on the amount of Crisis Energy she has.
 
Transcending said:
We would also have to give different ratings to people like Perpetua as her power depends on the amount of Crisis Energy she has.
Click to expand...
Crisis energy is explicitly an amp and she had said she was nearly full power before ever receiving any crisis energy.
 
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