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Time to fit the (literal) god of DC comics as well as the others in our new tiering system

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I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die

I'm_Blue_daba_dee_daba_die

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Time to get the big revisions of the god tiers:

Endless: Stays at 1-A, pretty much expected especially since they are very baseline and don't transcend and exceed the scale. Stays at 1-A

Mother Night/Father Time:

Stays at 1-A. Sure they may be stronger than the endless, but they don't exceed the 1-A DC hiearchy, they aren't even the big fish

The angels:

Stays at 1-A, stronger than the endless, but they don't transcend them. Plus, I doubt they are stronger than father time or mother night. I feel like this also applies to Lucifer and Micheal as well, since AT MOST they are merely the biggest fish in the DC semi abrahamic 1-A hiearchy (sans the presence), not infinitely exceeding them

The Presence:

Even IF his transcendence can count for infintely exceeding and being too large for the DC system. The Presence has WAY too many 1-A limitations, such as being killed a few times, characters who he can't kill like elaine, plus being WAY too limited by the Overvoid, speaking of which.

Overvoid:

I know many people disagree with me, but i feel like he should be at High 1-A.

I know what people will say:

"Reality-Fiction no longer counts, he only transcends one just like 1 step in the anime verses such as Umnieko"

answer: Here is a good description of how far the transcendence of the Overvoid is, even WITHOUT the reality fiction stuff.

Imagine DC as a tower. We have steps for various 1-A's and their power levels, the monitors, The endless, the weaker angels, Father time/mother night, Lucifer and Micheal,The Presence is at the top, but he is just the big fish at most.

The OVERVOID on the other hand. Is not just on a higher step, he is above the ROOF. His transcendence above DC is WAY beyond one mere transcendence such as characters like the presence. Even without the reality/fiction stuff, the overvoid is percieved as a being so beyond DC comics as a whole, that he exceeds the hiearchy to such a powerful degree. It views DC not just literally as fiction, but metaphorically, because the void is so exceeding DC as a whole

Now we get to the writer: Now there are 2 ways to view this.

view 1: The Writers relation to the overvoid is just as how we REALLY view in real life (like, the REAL REAL life, where I am making this CRT right now kind of reality). Then, I suggest a High 1-A rating for the writer.

Why?

Well, it's just that, if view the writer relationship to the overvoid like this, then the writer can be limited like the overvoid. The biggest thing that limits him is humanities ability to be harmed by paper (Since the void is viewed by the writer as the real world paper), think, we humans can get paper cuts from paper, can feel discomfort by spitballs or paper airplanes, etc

view 2: The relationship of the writer to the void is metaphorically like the paper, and it ISN'T as clear cut laws like our real life. Then, I suggest a tier 0 for the writer, for easily and vastly exceeding the whole High 1-A scale of the overvoid, not being able to be harmed or inconvenienced by this thing in the slightest.

Conclusion:

This is my opinion on how we should treat DC comics and their god tiers in our new tiering system. I can't wait for your opinions (and likely disagreements)

Note: Remember fella's. You may disagree, but let's keep things civil
 
You are just explaining where they would reach but not showing scans of ascending levels of infinity within the verse.
 
Despite it being an unpopular opinion, I think your explanation for high 1-A Overvoid makes sense. It's gonna need some scans like Hykuu said, but I can get behind it.
 
"Morrison: Yeah. Again, on the very edge of the art and the edge of the mind of God there are these two big concepts fighting ― Superman and Mandrakk, Predation and Protection, Greed and Preservation, Ugly and Beautiful, Youth and Age, Good and Evil, Black and White, Is and Isn't and all the others. Beyond that crumbling ledge in Monitor-World, those concepts don't exist and it's all non-dual Monitor mind, or God, or Kirby's Source, in which all contradictions are resolved into unity. It's funny, the more I talk about it, the more I'm getting into it! "

"The Multiverse map places Earth in the middle, but the other structures (including both Heaven and Limbo) "get more and more archetypal the further out you get into the void, and the void is also the white page where things are drawn," says Morrison. "It's kind of like in Buddhism where there's this pure consciousness that underlies everything, and you can call it god, you can call it the void. It contains everything—all good, all evil, all contradiction, all possibility. Just like the page of a comic. The first mark on the page could become anything. The mark is all possibility.""

Essentially the Overvoid encompasses all size, duality, contradiction, possibility and impossibility, truth and untruths, etc.

Not sure where this qualifies
 
Actually after rereading I was about to bring up potential refutes to his tower comparison, but looking at that makes me more secured to believe that Overvoid should be high 1-A.
 
Well, personally I think that it seems counter-intuitive that perceiving 1-A characters as fiction should receive a 1-A+ or High 1-A rating, and that it might set a very bad precedent, but I am not the best person to ask.

You should preferably ask Ultima Reality, DarkLK, Sera Ex, and DontTalkDT to comment here.
 
For any nay sayers let me put it like this. The gap between the Overvoid and the Presence is not the same as the gap between the Presence and the angels. Presence and the angels can normally interact with each other, but not Presence and the Overvoid. The Presence cannot even properly comprehend it. That is a humongous type of superiority. But high 1-A isn't just about how large the superiority is. It's the type as well.

"High 1-A = Above any recursions of size on any previous scale."

I'm no DC expert so you can call me out if the idea of the Presence not being able to comprehend Overvoid is false, but this definition seems to fit with how the Overvoid has been described to me. It is where everything in the DC cosmology minus the Writer has come from. This includes everything from the super heroes and the god tiers' hierarchies. It's the originator for all of this, so why should it be limited to the hierarchy present? It shouldn't. It exists completely outside of it as an abstract (somewhat since it's a paper) being that holds everything in the cosmology together. To the Presence or any hypothetical 1-A character in that verse, it's never gonna be able to be able to dethrone the Overvoid in any conventional means because no matter how many infinities you stack on yourself you're gonna still be bound to that same sheet of paper explaining that you are doing such an action in a speech bubble. You are still going to be bound to the Overvoid. I think this solidly falls in line with being above any recursions of size on any previous scale.
 
Antvasima said:
Well, personally I think that it seems counter-intuitive that perceiving 1-A characters as fiction should receive a 1-A+ or High 1-A rating, and that it might set a very bad precedent, but I am not the best person to ask.

You should preferably ask Ultima Reality, DarkLK, Sera Ex, and DontTalkDT to comment here.
Click to expand...
You are right on the subject that it can potentially lead into people getting the wrong idea and trying to get their characters high 1-A through illogical means. However, this is just then up to us explain to them the differences in what makes a high 1-A and what doesn't. Will it be difficult? Of course, but no pain no gain as they say. It's not like we never had these instances in the past before either.

Also I'm sure Ultima already explained that it was more then just a reality fiction difference that granted Overvoid a high 1-A status in the tiering revision.
 
The problem is that being incomprehensible to other 1-A beings, or perceiving them as fiction, should still not be enough to qualify, if I have understood the new standards correctly, but again, you should politely ask the people that I mentioned earlier to comment here. Please be specofic in the titles of your messages regarding what we need help with though.
 
I'm not saying that's the reason why Overvoid should qualify though. I whole heartily agree that the higher character's perception of lower beings should not be considered a solid consistent feat that we can automatically attach a tier to on how impressive it is. It's up to the fiction respectively to put into perspectives on how powerful that feat is.
 
I suppose, but again, you should ask all of the people that I mentioned earlier to give input here.
 
In Superman Beyond, The Overvoid views DC as infinitesimal bacterium. Not as a story. It examined the bacterium and then "saw" stories. However Grant Morrison says the Overvoid is paper which the Writer creates stories on. So it can either be an infinite transcendence (infinite in comparison; the equivalent of the microverse to the infinite universe in DC) or a fictional transcendence (viewing DC as fiction). I think those are the two options.
 
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
Overvoid:

I know many people disagree with me, but i feel like he should be at High 1-A.

I know what people will say:

"Reality-Fiction no longer counts, he only transcends one just like 1 step in the anime verses such as Umnieko"

answer: Here is a good description of how far the transcendence of the Overvoid is, even WITHOUT the reality fiction stuff.

Imagine DC as a tower. We have steps for various 1-A's and their power levels, the monitors, The endless, the weaker angels, Father time/mother night, Lucifer and Micheal,The Presence is at the top, but he is just the big fish at most.

The OVERVOID on the other hand. Is not just on a higher step, he is above the ROOF. His transcendence above DC is WAY beyond one mere transcendence such as characters like the presence. Even without the reality/fiction stuff, the overvoid is percieved as a being so beyond DC comics as a whole, that he exceeds the hiearchy to such a powerful degree. It views DC not just literally as fiction, but metaphorically, because the void is so exceeding DC as a whole
Click to expand...
I mean the degree of transcendence matters here. He is beyond them yes but it's mostly described as "infinite" in comparison to them. So I don't think it's like "it's in another layer of the transcendence chain" or "beyond it entirely".
 
ER seems to make sense to me.
 
Limbo is a baseline 1-A realm.

It is where the Multiverse (space and time) stops.It was stated that Limbo is beyond time and stories.

Monitor Sphere is above and much bigger than Limbo, when TB looked at from Monitor Sphere to Limbo, Limbo was very small.It was stated that Monitor Sphere is beyond dualities.

Monitors are primal forms that exists in fundamental and archetypal Monitor World, which is above than Limbo, so they are above than baseline.

Mandrakk casually one shotted to Monitor Zillo Valla.It was stated that Mandrakk was the ultimate threat to entire existence.So Mandrakk and TB are well above than baseline, as they can one shot Monitors who are above than baseline Limbo.

Destiny's book contains the entire DC Multiverse (which has multiple 1-A realms). So he is much more above than Thought Robot and Mandrakk as his book encompasses the entire Monitor realm.

Death killed Destiny at the end of Creation.

It was stated that Lucifer is older and greater than Angel of Death and Dream stated that Lucifer is the most powerful being in creation, except his father.

The Presence is likely infinitely above than Lucifer and Michael as he created them and can easly erase them , though i'm unsure about this.
 
The problem is that such a hierarchy would still not be enough to reach 1-A+, as far as I am aware.
 
Doesn't for 1-A+ rating a character should be infinite times more powerful than a baseline 1-A character? i think Presence can qualify for this tier.
 
No, as far as I understand, a 1-A+ rating means transcending baseline 1-A characters an infinite number of times, in which each step is at least an infinite number of times higher than the preceding one. And this may be a serious understatement.
 
It was stated in Lucifer that any amount of 1-A Creations within the Void, ends up to 0. Take that statement with what you will.
 
Please provide a scan, so we can evaluate what was said.
 
What it seems to say is just that the void is infinitely large, so no matter how large multiverses you fill it with, they will never take up any room. No references were made to metafiction or structures that are already beyond scale.
 
ya but we already know even lucifer's creation was infinite and so was the primum mobile, also it doesn't really matter because we scale lucifer to those constructs anyway so by that same standard we would have to scale those creations the same aswell, it's pretty bizzare to scale Lucifer to the monitor sphere but not the creations in the void
 
I do not think that they qualify for anything beyond 1-A. No mentions are made of an infinite number of reality-fiction hierarchies, or similar degrees of qualitative superiority.

This seems extremely exaggerated to me.
 
Well the only thing they really have going for them is Lucifer and the Presence imposing their will on the void and Grant Morrison's Presence literally being the Void
 
It appears Monitor Mind and The Writer are the only ones that qualify for High 1-A.

The Eonymous should as well but that's a topic for another time.
 
Antvasima said:
You should preferably ask Ultima Reality, DarkLK, Sera EX, and DontTalkDT to comment here.
Click to expand...
^
 
I am not sure about the Overvoid anymore, admitedly, especially with the new Justice League stuff defining it as being more like a literal void of nothingness that can be interacted with, as opposed to it being defined as the literal blank page which the comic is drawn on (though I don't mind being corrected on this one). However, I do believe The Writer can qualify for being higher than 1-A, namely because of how literal-minded and extended DC's Metafictional Cosmology is.

I say this mainly because of these panels from Animal Man 26. Here, Grant Morrison's Writer Avatar is attacked and apparently killed by an enraged Animal Man, before casually respawning back to life and explaining that he wrote Animal Man into doing so, and even points out that to harm him, he would have to get into the Real World and attack the actual persona, as opposed to simply a construct made specifically for the story. More specifically, Grant says that he can always fake the Real World into the pages of the comicbook, but in the end, even this in-universe Real World would be just fiction and nothing more.

Latter on, Grant takes Animal Man to a walk, and eventually decides to just let him go home and forget all that has happened in the comic, which is represented by him dissolving into sketches alongside the entire world and writing Animal Ma back to his family. This pretty clearly shows that the Writer which appeared in the comic's events was just a construct, and we are then shown another Grant Morriso, seemingly in the real world, which then starts narrating the comic and making a personal statement.

Although, the fact that he literally includes the comic's "The End" panel into his own personal narratio pretty clearly showcases that what we are seeing is also merely fiction, which ties fairly well with his previous statement that, while fictional characters can always interact with in-universe author avatars and fictional representations of the real world, those two things would remain fictional nonetheless, and by extension still be under the Writer's control.

The point I am trying to get across is, while DC as a verse has yet to showcase something like "INfinIte fIckShUnal tRansCenDez", this is not particularly relevant to the Writer, who will always perceive all of it as nothing but a work of fiction to be directed as they please, and the subtext relating to multiple layers of fiction within fiction present in Animal Man 26, while pretty obtuse and hard to swallow for some, is undeniably present in the narrative nonetheless, and isn't something we should just ignore, imo.
 
The presence and belloc shouldn't be anything higher than 1-A. High 1-A is out of the question. I agree with ant (for once)

Sure the presence may be stronger than the other 1-A's. But it is clearly on a level that is nowhere NEAR infinite, which is shown by how the weaker 1-A's can still hold their own against him
 
EmperorRorepme said:
I'm Blue daba dee daba die said:
Overvoid:

I know many people disagree with me, but i feel like he should be at High 1-A.

I know what people will say:

"Reality-Fiction no longer counts, he only transcends one just like 1 step in the anime verses such as Umnieko"

answer: Here is a good description of how far the transcendence of the Overvoid is, even WITHOUT the reality fiction stuff.

Imagine DC as a tower. We have steps for various 1-A's and their power levels, the monitors, The endless, the weaker angels, Father time/mother night, Lucifer and Micheal,The Presence is at the top, but he is just the big fish at most.

The OVERVOID on the other hand. Is not just on a higher step, he is above the ROOF. His transcendence above DC is WAY beyond one mere transcendence such as characters like the presence. Even without the reality/fiction stuff, the overvoid is percieved as a being so beyond DC comics as a whole, that he exceeds the hiearchy to such a powerful degree. It views DC not just literally as fiction, but metaphorically, because the void is so exceeding DC as a whole
Click to expand...
I mean the degree of transcendence matters here. He is beyond them yes but it's mostly described as "infinite" in comparison to them. So I don't think it's like "it's in another layer of the transcendence chain" or "beyond it entirely".
Click to expand...
From what I remember, his "infinite" in comparison to them, was in the context of beyond the hiearchy entirely and exceeding the whole power of DC as a whole.

So I disagree
 
My explanation for the Overvoid worked because of my interpretation of it was that it was the literal originater for all things DC cosmology because of its nature as the blank page where characters are gonna first need to even be drawn in the first place. If the nature of Overvoid isn't like this, and can be interacted with, then I'll retract my statement and I'll agree that the idea of it being high 1-A is shaky. As at this point it can have a strong possibility of it being bound and superseded to other 1-As in the verse. Coupled in with the fact that it's technically the writer that is the one creating the cosmology as opposed to the Overvoid. But with that out of the way the next best thing I see is that the writer is high 1-A at least. But again I'm not a DC expert so I'm not sure.
 
It used to be how I described it. If the overvoid is now treated no longer as the exceeding, incomprehensible void, and more of a void which beings can interact with. Then I don't think High 1-A should apply to it sadly. Man, who do current western comic books like to downplay the characters
 
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