The Undertale CRT!! (Low to High Tiers ONLY)

[Psychomaster35]

To be fair, I also refer to Frisk as male, but you can call them whatever gender you want

 

[GyroNutz]

Also theres one little issue with your "saves increase frisks power" thing. And thats the fact that you can go through the entire game without saving once and the game will straight up acknowledge it. Sooo saves points being what gives frisk his power when he can do the exact same thing without it is sorta out the window.

I agree with this notion here. The save points = Frisk getting stronger seems like a weird way to explain discrepancies between the CHECK stats/lore and the battle system.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

-Can blatantly hurt and take hits from undyne with without any equipment or lv and ultimately kills or escapes from them, the arguably most bloodlusted opponent who is determined to kill you. Does the exact same thing with muffet.
-Clearly weaker than both
Sigh

I mean i guess, but we only see the amounts of power they truly have when they are in battle. The amount they have at save points in that moment is unquantifiable since its never really shown.

Also theres one little issue with your "saves increase frisks power" thing. And thats the fact that you can go through the entire game without saving once and the game will straight up acknowledge it. Sooo saves points being what gives frisk his power when he can do the exact same thing without it is sorta out the window.

Ive fully gone over how frisks just adapting to monsters when he fights them makes more sense from fighting monsters at varying levels and is blatantly proveable while youve been using complete headcannon like "clearly weaker than a character he fights evenly against in all scenarios" and being a specific level at save points, or just "nah it dont make sense", what are you even talking about? How the hell is any of the comparisons i brought up supporting evidence?

Ill rephrase. Frisks stats and their mechanics are cannon (and brought up in genocide) and are acknowledged. His stats never change throughout the story, which means his stats do not have a permanent change through the story.

If you want math the fall is actually 164 times weaker than the oven feat lol. Bout the gap between a high end street level and a normal human (even a chimpanzee is gonna feel something even if simply dizzy like chara, from having the full force of a human hit them directly on their head and exerted onto their spine. Theyre sure as hell not gonna react like its some kind of feather)

And yeah pressure. All that pressure is getting exerted onto charas head and likely her spine. Her insides arent going to magically be super durable or immune to that kind of shift in momentum. Along with the fact chara had no actual visible injuries and was even able to walk and just felt light headed, its barely even an anti feat assuming it isnt pis (like most falls in fiction are)
The fall itself isnt even the plot twist, it just happens in the scene... even if chara was unphased the story would have still played out the same with asriel finding them.

Again, none of this proves how much they get from these determination bursts at save points (especially when save points have no effect on how he fights enemies) or keeps that determination and strength permanantely when his strength blatantly drops. If i find myself getting angry at certain things through a journey, that doesnt mean im suddenly going to become permanentaly pissed off and never lose that emotion.

So no, him being either at his weakest in a situation where frisk has no reason to be determined, or any given higher level depending on who hes fighting or how much frisk has isnt nonsense. Youre just repeating the same things at this point.

Yes, Frisk is weaker than both Undyne and Muffet at that point. Hurting them on such a insignificant way isn't going to make you scale to their full strength.

The end point is that you cannot prove Frisk was at their weakest when the Oven feat happened.
In fact, you can't even prove they are at their weakest after a battle, because that's unquantifiable, as we agreed upon.
Obviously you can say SAVE are not a source to their power, but they still can get an amout of DT by such mundane things. You don't have to, but you can. So the celling of DT at the Oven feat is Waterfall DT, but the we don't know how much they had at the time.

Backscaling Frisk from the Oven feat to Ruins Monsters is unreasonable.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I agree with this notion here. The save points = Frisk getting stronger seems like a weird way to explain discrepancies between the CHECK stats/lore and the battle system.

Fair enough, would you like to vote for a scaling though? The details of said scalings are pointed out by me at the voting post, and by Reth themselves above. (I recommend you read my post for my scaling, and their post for theirs, as we might have bias against each other's scaling)

 

[RethPo]

Yes, Frisk is weaker than both Undyne and Muffet at that point. Hurting them on such a insignificant way isn't going to make you scale to their full strength.

I tried undyne without weapons and it takes just over 30 hits to kill them and just over 20 before you suddently start dealing over 130 damage not counting her melting cutscene. So frisk does do significant damage even at some later point in the fight. Even outside of gameplay where frisk is blatantly taking hits, him being tens to hundreds of times weaker than bloodlusted opponents (mad dummy as well btw) yet surviving encounters one way or another is bullshit even ignoring the battleboard system being a part of the narrative and taking hits being so as well. Frisk would be getting one shotted by them constantly. And again, even with that equipment he gets hurt by later monsters.

Also doesnt him increasing in determination and dealing way more damage later in the fight straight up prove his determination can reach that point and not be the same later and that it happens more in combat? Seriously why are we even debating this? He literally fights stronger enemies and gets hurt by weaker ones later no matter how you look at it meaning he varies back and forth in strength and doesnt linearly progress in strength. Why is it so damn hard to get through your head man? At least try to come up with some theoretical explanation or whatever to it instead of outright refusing to acknowledge whats blatantly happening.

The end point is that you cannot prove Frisk was at their weakest when the Oven feat happened.
In fact, you can't even prove they are at their weakest after a battle, because that's unquantifiable, as we agreed upon.
Obviously you can say SAVE are not a source to their power, but they still can get an amout of DT by such mundane things. You don't have to, but you can. So the celling of DT at the Oven feat is Waterfall DT, but the we don't know how much they had at the time.

Backscaling Frisk from the Oven feat to Ruins Monsters is unreasonable.

After battles his stats are always unchanged unless lv is involved so his strength increase clearly doesnt stay with him when hes in the overworld (except when being chased by undyne though his stats cant be viewed while thats happening so...). The fact that hes never seen gain a boost in strength from the dt outside of an actual fight should be enough.

The main reason for frisk likely being at their lowest in determination there is for one not even having enough willpower to the point of barely knocking over a tomato or hurting anyone (but okay hes holding back on the second bit). But mainly, before sitting down you can check frisks stats and theyll be at zero if you havent already gained lv or equipped anything meaning he didnt have any determination at least the first half of his date.

 

[RethPo]

Undertale human soul scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

I also made this for scaling the human souls btw. Made a high and low end depending on who scales to the oven feat. (I think you also scaled snowdin monsters to ice wolf now that i think about it? Considering how buff ice wolf is and his strength being unknown, i dont think theres anything to exactly scale random monsters to him outside papyrus)

Honestly by the looks of it, considering theres no actual counter for frisk going back and forth in strength depending on DT, with his fights against mew mew, toriel, undyne, mad dummy, muffet etc proving it does, i dont think the entire scaling chain needs to be reworked.

Just deciding who should scale to frisks whole oven feat. Its likely either unquantifiable and nobody scales except those who are already 9-A, or frisk doesnt have enough dt to give him much greater strength and most monsters scale.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I tried undyne without weapons and it takes just over 30 hits to kill them and just over 20 before you suddently start dealing over 130 damage not counting her melting cutscene. So frisk does do significant damage even at some later point in the fight. Even outside of gameplay where frisk is blatantly taking hits, him being tens to hundreds of times weaker than bloodlusted opponents (mad dummy as well btw) yet surviving encounters one way or another is bullshit even ignoring the battleboard system being a part of the narrative and taking hits being so as well. Frisk would be getting one shotted by them constantly. And again, even with that equipment he gets hurt by later monsters.

Also doesnt him increasing in determination and dealing way more damage later in the fight straight up prove his determination can reach that point and not be the same later and that it happens more in combat? Seriously why are we even debating this? He literally fights stronger enemies and gets hurt by weaker ones later no matter how you look at it meaning he varies back and forth in strength and doesnt linearly progress in strength. Why is it so damn hard to get through your head man? At least try to come up with some theoretical explanation or whatever to it instead of outright refusing to acknowledge whats blatantly happening.

You're being ignorant on purpose.
Their damage increases because of killing intent and Undyne defense's weakning due to Monster's Weakness, which you blatantly ignore for the sake of your argument.

Frisk isn't "hundreds of times" weaker than Undyne. They're 13x weaker than Undyne. 30 hits counting with increased damage fits this nicely.

Durability via DT does not scale to AP at all. Example, Omega Flowey and Asriel fights. Frisk had Uni+ durability, but unknown ap. Tanking attacks from stronger Monsters means absolutely nothing, as that's not reasoning to scale Frisk to their AP. We're talking about AP.

After battles his stats are [...]

Boring tangent about unchanged stats, Frisk scaling is unrelated to their stats in all instances. They change their Durability at will via DT, and you barely address this in your reply.

"Lack of will to knock over a tomato", you're reaching hard.

 

[RethPo]

You're being ignorant on purpose.
Their damage increases because of killing intent and Undyne defense's weakning due to Monster's Weakness, which you blatantly ignore for the sake of your argument.

Forgot about that but fair point... Although ive seen frisk do 90 damage on neutral routes at lv 10 where he should have even more killing intent than he had in that instance... but take that as you will.

Frisk isn't "hundreds of times" weaker than Undyne. They're 13x weaker than Undyne. 30 hits counting with increased damage fits this nicely.

Yeah, good luck killing someone over 13 times your strength in real life with 30 punches. Even people who are relatively the same level in street fights and boxing matches can take that many hits without dying. Even ignoring the increased damage frisk starts doing that when undynes nearly a third way dead.

Durability via DT does not scale to AP at all. Example, Omega Flowey and Asriel fights. Frisk had Uni+ durability, but unknown ap. Tanking attacks from stronger Monsters means absolutely nothing, as that's not reasoning to scale Frisk to their AP. We're talking about AP.

Boring tangent about unchanged stats, Frisk scaling is unrelated to their stats in all instances. They change their Durability at will via DT, and you barely address this in your reply.

Omega floweys a bad example since flowey straight up one shot frisk at the end of their fight and was holding back. When fighting asriel whos infinitely more powerful than anything frisk can dish out frisks dura went beyond his ap and became a stonewall yeah, but in basically every other instance frisk hurts the enemies hes taking hits on and has nothing to suggest him being a stonewall

Can you explain why is frisks scaling unrelated to their stats exactly?

"Lack of will to knock over a tomato", you're reaching hard.

Doing all the tasks calmly does kinda display a lack of will yeah, not my main argument anyway.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Forgot about that but fair point... Although ive seen frisk do 90 damage on neutral routes at lv 10 where he should have even more killing intent than he had in that instance... but take that as you will.

Oh... I am sorry for the slightly aggressiveness. I was just frustrated at this point being brought up.

Yeah, good luck killing someone over 13 times your strength in real life with 30 punches.

Hey, hey, we're going to a very weird tangent now. Real Life? This is fiction, we've seen larger gaps being able to slightly hurt one another. Undyne can kill Frisk in 4 turns, Frisk needs 30 hits while abusing their opponent's weakness.

Claiming they're comparable just sounds astonishing, don't you think?

Omega floweys a bad example since flowey straight up one shot frisk at the end of their fight and was holding back.

Fair.

When fighting asriel whos infinitely more powerful than anything frisk can dish out frisks dura went beyond his ap and became a stonewall yeah, but in basically every other instance frisk hurts the enemies hes taking hits on and has nothing to suggest him being a stonewall.

This suggests Determination can boost an attribute without being universal to all their stats. After all, their main objective in most pacifist fights is survive. (And they have to build up their killing intent as the battle progresses)

Can you explain why is frisks scaling unrelated to their stats exactly?

Their stats never change directly, yet, they can continuously fight stronger people. Determination cares little about stat difference, and it's the only reason why Frisk is not wall level through the whole game. We don't use stats to scale Frisk, we use their DT, so the fact the stat number doesn't change is unrelated to scaling.

Doing all the tasks calmly does kinda display a lack of will yeah, not my main argument anyway.

Again, this is way too interpretative, no? If we can reach out so much, I could say Frisk is determined to be Undyne's friend.

The Oven backscaling is very unreliable in my opinion.

 

[Giannysmag]

Bump

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Oh... I am sorry for the slightly aggressiveness. I was just frustrated at this point being brought up.

Hey, hey, we're going to a very weird tangent now. Real Life? This is fiction, we've seen larger gaps being able to slightly hurt one another. Undyne can kill Frisk in 4 turns, Frisk needs 30 hits while abusing their opponent's weakness.

Claiming they're comparable just sounds astonishing, don't you think?

Fair.

This suggests Determination can boost an attribute without being universal to all their stats. After all, their main objective in most pacifist fights is survive. (And they have to build up their killing intent as the battle progresses)

Their stats never change directly, yet, they can continuously fight stronger people. Determination cares little about stat difference, and it's the only reason why Frisk is not wall level through the whole game. We don't use stats to scale Frisk, we use their DT, so the fact the stat number doesn't change is unrelated to scaling.

Again, this is way too interpretative, no? If we can reach out so much, I could say Frisk is determined to be Undyne's friend.

The Oven backscaling is very unreliable in my opinion.

Can we scale ruin monsters to Frisk falling?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Can we scale ruin monsters to Frisk falling?

That's what I did in my scaling.

 

[Imaginym]

Actually, 7 people would require us to call in more people, explain what's going on, and then ask them to vote. I can see Imaginym joining in, but most Staff I called didn't seem to care.

Since pretty much everyone directly involved with the thread voted, can we make a decision for now? (A thread can be made later to change the scaling, if you still disagree with it)

Lol. I'm not sure if I should appreciate this... "vote of confidence" for me. Though, frankly, I find this whole debate slightly confusing.

To be fair, I also refer to Frisk as male, but you can call them whatever gender you want

I find this a reasonable position.

Pardon me making such an unimportant post, please.
If it weren't clear right now, I'm not sure I have a stance any way regarding the matters of debate in this thread currently.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Lol. I'm not sure if I should appreciate this... "vote of confidence" for me. Though, frankly, I find this whole debate slightly confusing.

It's basically... uhh, scaling Frisk from the mid game to the earlier game, and then scaling them to the monsters there. Reth also suggested that the monsters we face are stronger than the citizens, rather than them just being the general population.

I am suggesting the opposite.

This debate happened so we can properly scale Omega Flowey and what-not.
That's pretty much it.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

It's basically... uhh, scaling Frisk from the mid game to the earlier game, and then scaling them to the monsters there. Reth also suggested that the monsters we face are stronger than the citizens, rather than them just being the general population.

I am suggesting the opposite.

This debate happened so we can properly scale Omega Flowey and what-not.
That's pretty much it.

Can we scale Barrier and Dog to Omega Flowey?
:troll:

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Can we scale Barrier and Dog to Omega Flowey?
:troll:

If the barrier didn't allow any City-Block level mf to leave just because they strong enough, it'd be a great place for sum' BFR

---

 

[Deleted member 16409]

If the barrier didn't allow any City-Block level mf to leave just because they strong enough, it'd be a great place for sum' BFR

---

Btw, are Barrier Universal+ via tanking Asriel?

 

[Theuser789]

Unrelated but monsters with 20 AT/DF should scale to Mettaton's wall feat since both Undyne and the Royal Guards have 30 AT or above but only have 20 DF and aren't treated as MTT NEO tier glass cannons

Edit: There's also Muffet and Whimsalot and although I am not super sure about the latter, the former is definitively not treated as a glass cannon, so either they downscale or stats are ignored

Small bump. I don't think anyone talked about this and it would change the scaling depending on which interpretation is taken

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Small bump. I don't think anyone talked about this and it would change the scaling depending on which interpretation is taken

Muffet and Whims a lot are already scaled to Mettaton, as they have more than 30 ATK.

I am failing to realize why their durability against Frisk matters?

 

[Theuser789]

My point is that their DEF is below 30 (20 for Undyne and Royal Guards, Muffet has 18.8, Whimsalot has 14), so monsters with similar stats should also be 9-A since they aren't glass cannons

 

[GodlyCharmander]

My point is that their DEF is below 30 (20 for Undyne and Royal Guards, Muffet has 18.8, Whimsalot has 14), so monsters with similar stats should also be 9-A since they aren't glass cannons

DEF doesn't scale to ATK. I don't know why you'd think that.

 

[Theuser789]

Dude, you aren't understanding my argument, Undyne's DEF is 20, right? You argued in this same thread against me her dura was 9-A, correct? Which means that Undyne has 9-A dura while having 20 DEF, right? So monster with the same DEF stat should also have 9-A dura, this isn't hard to understand, unless you just aren't using stats for scaling anymore

DEF doesn't scale to ATK. I don't know why you'd think that.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Dude, you aren't understanding my argument, Undyne's DEF is 20, right? You argued in this same thread against me her dura was 9-A, correct? Which means that Undyne has 9-A dura while having 20 DEF, right? So monster with the same DEF stat should also have 9-A dura, this isn't hard to understand, unless you just aren't using stats for scaling anymore

No need to throw a tantrum, calm down.

Sure, this works. But you said "Monsters with 20 AT" too, that's what I replied against.

 

[Theuser789]

That's because monsters with 20 DEF (Ergo Papyrus) also have similar AT and they aren't stonewalls like base Mettaton

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's because monsters with 20 DEF (Ergo Papyrus) also have similar AT and they aren't stonewalls like base Mettaton

But they are weaker than Mettaton, that's a fact. The DEF stats just allows some very suspicious backscaling, as there are +30 ATK Monsters with ~14 DEF, or 12 DEF, which will backscale it even further.

I think the DEF stat shouldn't be the only factor, but rather how easily they are defeated regardless of said stat (aka, their HP). RG 01, Undyne, and Papyrus can tank far more attacks than Tsunderplane for example, despite the latter having a higher DEF stat than all of them.

 

[Theuser789]

Being weaker doesn't mean you can't scale to someone, backscaling is a thing. If Papyrus, for example, has the same DEF as Undyne, and isn't treated as being stonewalls, ergo their attack potency is comparable to their durability, then they scale, that simple. I don't know if you are against this or not

HP is just vitality, Undyne the Undying have more HP than Omega Flowey, and yet the latter is far more durable, Asgore and Toriel have equal stats, but Toriel has far less HP than the king. If you accept stats than you need some standards for which scale and which don't

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Being weaker doesn't mean you can't scale to someone, backscaling is a thing. If Papyrus, for example, has the same DEF as Undyne, and isn't treated as being stonewalls, ergo their attack potency is comparable to their durability, then they scale, that simple. I don't know if you are against this or not.

But you don't backscale to someone how is clearly stronger, and backscaling is only acceptable if you're somewhat comparable. Downscaling however, is acceptable. We can probably downscale them to baseline 9-A, but that's about it. What do you think?

HP is just vitality, Undyne the Undying have more HP than Omega Flowey, and yet the latter is far more durable, Asgore and Toriel have equal stats, but Toriel has far less HP than the king. If you accept stats than you need some standards for which scale and which don't

Relative Damage. You only do 1 damage to O.F, that's why their HP is contrasted as them being ridiculously durable.

 

[RethPo]

Hey, hey, we're going to a very weird tangent now. Real Life? This is fiction, we've seen larger gaps being able to slightly hurt one another. Undyne can kill Frisk in 4 turns, Frisk needs 30 hits while abusing their opponent's weakness.
Claiming they're comparable just sounds astonishing, don't you think?

Well being stronger than someone whos 13 times stronger than someone else is not comparable, its twice the gap it takes to one shot... being fiction isnt suddenly going to make characters fight people who are nearly tens of times stronger than them unless the series physics somehow runs on that rule. If you wanna go with how the wiki treats fiction then you have characters scaling to other characters for just scratching damage on another character. At most backscaling makes you a few times weaker.

This suggests Determination can boost an attribute without being universal to all their stats. After all, their main objective in most pacifist fights is survive. (And they have to build up their killing intent as the battle progresses)

Their stats never change directly, yet, they can continuously fight stronger people. Determination cares little about stat difference, and it's the only reason why Frisk is not wall level through the whole game. We don't use stats to scale Frisk, we use their DT, so the fact the stat number doesn't change is unrelated to scaling.

Uhuh. Where are you going with this durability point exactly?

We literally cant check his stats in instances when hes in a battle. Its the other way around in terms of caring. Stat difference cares about frisks strenght and power in the face of monsters. Why would stats suddenly just not change when its being increased from dt? We cant actually view his stats in battle so him going to his opponents level, lv and equipment functioning as add ons, and dropping back to base afterwards make sense. Unless you really wanna just say that his stats measure his strength n all but just dont care that he gets stronger progressively or doesnt factor in his determination boosts which is a bit of an assumption and stretch.

Again, this is way too interpretative, no? If we can reach out so much, I could say Frisk is determined to be Undyne's friend.

The Oven backscaling is very unreliable in my opinion.

I guess. But like i said before, we dont really see frisk gain strength from determination outside combat situations sooo idk. Frisk being at his base does make more sense from what ive seen especially when youd be scaling his base hundreds of times weaker than mid tier monsters otherwise despite the lore giving humans better strength due to their physical matter, though im fine with just a vote on it. I still have my blog for both scaling

For that def debate thing. Defence is inconsistent as hell (even more than attack stats) and shouldnt really be used unless a characters explicitely a stone wall or glass cannon. Some hotlands monsters straight up have zero def.

 

[Theuser789]

But you don't backscale to someone how is clearly stronger, and backscaling is only acceptable if you're somewhat comparable. Downscaling however, is acceptable. We can probably downscale them to baseline 9-A, but that's about it. What do you think?

But they are comparable, Undyne doesn't one shot herself with her 20 DEF, Papyrus has the same DEF, ergo dura and his AP is comparable to his dura, baseline 9-A is a completely arbitrary number when Mettaton's feat was casual and how much stronger 30 AT is from 20 AT is unknown. I think they should just backscale because they are comparable, you are overestimating the strengh gap here. If, for some reason, this is controversial, just make them "likely" 9-A then, instead of putting a random AP on them

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Well being stronger than someone whos 13 times stronger than someone else is not comparable, its twice the gap it takes to one shot... being fiction isnt suddenly going to make characters fight people who are nearly tens of times stronger than them unless the series physics somehow runs on that rule. If you wanna go with how the wiki treats fiction then you have characters scaling to other characters for just scratching damage on another character. At most backscaling makes you a few times weaker.

Uhuh. Where are you going with this durability point exactly?

We literally cant check his stats in instances when hes in a battle. Its the other way around in terms of caring. Stat difference cares about frisks strenght and power in the face of monsters. Why would stats suddenly just not change when its being increased from dt? We cant actually view his stats in battle so him going to his opponents level, lv and equipment functioning as add ons, and dropping back to base afterwards make sense. Unless you really wanna just say that his stats measure his strength n all but just dont care that he gets stronger progressively or doesnt factor in his determination boosts which is a bit of an assumption and stretch.

I guess. But like i said before, we dont really see frisk gain strength from determination outside combat situations sooo idk. Frisk being at his base does make more sense from what ive seen especially when youd be scaling his base hundreds of times weaker than mid tier monsters otherwise despite the lore giving humans better strength due to their physical matter, though im fine with just a vote on it. I still have my blog for both scaling.

We can agree to disagree, then. Sounds like a reasonable conclusion to me.

For that def debate thing. Defence is inconsistent as hell (even more than attack stats) and shouldnt really be used unless a characters explicitely a stone wall or glass cannon. Some hotlands monsters straight up have zero def.

I absolutely agree with this.

 

[Theuser789]

The monsters with 0 Def always get one-shot no matter your equipment, they are glass cannons, but if this place thinks it's "inconsistent" than so be it

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Well being stronger than someone whos 13 times stronger than someone else is not comparable, its twice the gap it takes to one shot...

The "one shot" gap is only, and exclusively applied to Vs Matches, not scaling. Not an argument. Also, Frisk Durability deliberately deviates from their AP too.

being fiction isnt suddenly going to make-

Yes it is. Any gap is acceptable if the author so allows it.

Uhuh. Where are you going with this durability point exactly?

This durability feat wouldn't scale to earlier Monster's AP because Frisk DEF wildly varies in each occasion.
Undyne not one shotting Frisk isn't a valid point for the latter to scale in AP. Frisk had Wall Level+ AP and Small Building Dura during Undyne's fight, plain and simple.

Why would stats suddenly just not change when its being increased from dt?

We have no way of knowing that, therefore you shouldn't just claim it as being a reasonable argument. It isn't.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Question.
Is Toriel scaled to Mettaton and got 4x multiplier via 80 stats?

 

[RethPo]

@Theuser789 I tested it out on vulkin and its true for them. For shyren as well as others though it isnt. Though theres also instances of floweys def being zero and

The "one shot" gap is only, and exclusively applied to Vs Matches, not scaling. Not an argument. Also, Frisk Durability deliberately deviates from their AP too.

Yes it is. Any gap is acceptable if the author so allows it.

This literally sounds like a "scaling is illogical" argument youd find browsing fictional battle omniverse... "exclusively applied to vs matches" only means you cant say a character who one shots another is seven times stronger and make them an entire tier higher from it. The one shot gap is still the wikis way of saying "a character cant contend with someone over 7 times their strength".

Because the author allows it? Dude where are you getting this from? Nothing in undertale implies a character is magically able to beat the hell out of someone who is tens of times more durable than your ap (bar weaknesses). Youre out here saying that killing someone over 13 stronger than what you can dish out in 30-70 hits when actual physics contradict it and then saying "its possible cuz its fiction" despite toby not even giving a damn about scaling.

Youre making up logic from absolutely nowhere man. Literally all your arguments are based on "could be like this". This is entirely argument from beleif. If you beat the shit out of someone to half death with your punches, you are comparable to their durability, human to mid street level gap is not comparable at all. Denying that is crazy.

This durability feat wouldn't scale to earlier Monster's AP because Frisk DEF wildly varies in each occasion.
Undyne not one shotting Frisk isn't a valid point for the latter to scale in AP. Frisk had Wall Level+ AP and Small Building Dura during Undyne's fight, plain and simple.

Well youve conceded to frisk varying back and forth via determination, just in durability although his ap blatantly is undynes level... and frisk has never shown to be a stonewall outside the asriel fight... Why are we arguing this?

We have no way of knowing that, therefore you shouldn't just claim it as being a reasonable argument. It isn't.

Through basic logical reasoning? Stats factor in frisks strength and his strength is in no way suggested to become invalid if its from determination. His stats when he gets those power boosts arent even visible. So theres no way to prove theyd be invalidated unless you could check his stats while facing those enemies. The burdens on you to prove it.

Im not sure why were arguing this since it is originally a way to refute frisk getting progressively stronger through the story with his durability being the focus, and you basically conceding to his durability doing that... with frisk trading blows with everyone and showing no signs of being a stone wall beyond the asriel fight... Im prolly gonna stop this bit soon.

 

[RethPo]

Question.
Is Toriel scaled to Mettaton and got 4x multiplier via 80 stats?

No, stats not linear. Thought its been said

 

[RethPo]

So since i have the blog for both scaling chains i think we should have a vote. Anybody tagged feel free to change it if you wish.

A. Frisks has minimal determination and at his weakest when tanking the oven, scaling to majority of monsters (Souls become 8-B, flowey becomes 8-B: @RethPo @Theuser789

B. Frisk isnt at his weakest or at some unquantifiable level making anyone outside of already 9-As scaling to it unreliable (Souls become 8-C+, flowey high 8-C+): @Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @chosen, @Originlima, @FarerPurple

C. At least (Scaling A, possibly scaling B for souls and flowey)

D. Idunno, dio brando scales.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So since i have the blog for both scaling chains i think we should have a vote. Anybody tagged feel free to change it if you wish.

A. Frisks has minimal determination and at his weakest when tanking the oven, scaling to majority of monsters (Souls become 8-B, flowey becomes 8-A): @Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @chosen, @Originlima, @FarerPurple

B. Frisk isnt at his weakest or at some unquantifiable level making anyone outside of already 9-As scaling to it unreliable (Souls become 8-C+, flowey high 8-C+): @RethPo @Theuser789

C. At least (Scaling A, possibly scaling B for souls and flowey)

D. Idunno, dio brando scales.

You inverted both.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

This literally sounds like--

Oh please, save me from these nasty remarks. If you're not going to be proper and respond to an argument like a reasonable person, don't expect me to either.
Energy levels and one shot gaps we use EXCLUSIVELY in Vs Matches are absolutely not usable in scaling, and that's final.
Also, also, we DON'T scale people objectively stronger to weaker ones because of baby damage. We downscale them to the nearest level, or use the highest feat available for them.

"its possible cuz its fiction" despite toby not even giving a damn about scaling.

First off, Death of the Author, don't claim stuff you objectively don't know.

Oh yeah, because Toby cares about Energy Levels now, huh? No, expect he most likely DOESN'T. Stop this absolute nonsense.

Frisk is weaker than Undyne by a significant margin. THAT is the only fact the game supports in the battle.


ANYTHING we interpret after this undeniable fact has ZERO, NOTHING, NADA to do with what Toby thinks. After this point, we give zero ***** about it, it's i r r e l e v a n t.

It can be by any gap necessary as long as it's not absurd. (Which is interpretative)


By the way, this whole argument is a waste of time, and space, Frisk durability is absolutely unrelated to their Attack Potency. The fact they can tank Undyne means NOTHING.

Youre making up logic from absolutely nowhere man.

Alright Mr. "Determination changes stats because yes".

Through basic logical reasoning?

Determination literally is never even REMOTELY implied to have any effect in stat changes. Therefore it simply doesn't. You can't make shit up just because "it'd fit what happens on screen" and say it's true.

There is no point in insisting, you don't have an argument, nor do you have definitive evidence. We are not applying that.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So since i have the blog for both scaling chains i think we should have a vote. Anybody tagged feel free to change it if you wish.

A. Frisks has minimal determination and at his weakest when tanking the oven, scaling to majority of monsters (Souls become 8-B, flowey becomes 8-A): @Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @chosen, @Originlima, @FarerPurple

B. Frisk isnt at his weakest or at some unquantifiable level making anyone outside of already 9-As scaling to it unreliable (Souls become 8-C+, flowey high 8-C+): @RethPo @Theuser789

C. At least (Scaling A, possibly scaling B for souls and flowey)

D. Idunno, dio brando scales.

You also blatantly lied about my scaling on the blog. I DON'T consider the monsters we fight to be some kind of super-beings in their society, we NEVER came to an agreement on that, and we never will because that is the stupidest thing I've ever read about Undertale scaling.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Enough of this biased bs.

Scaling A: @Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @chosen, @Originlima, @FarerPurple

Spoiler: Scaling A redone

We have 5 different locations.

Ruins Monsters (Scales to Chara's calc)

Snowdin Monsters (Scales to Ice Wolf's calc)

Waterfall Monsters (Scales to Oven's Explosion)

Hotland Monsters (Scales to Pyrope's Calc)

CORE Monsters (Scales to Mettaton's Calc)



The Underground have about 14600 Monsters (who have access to his show, could be more)



Snowdin, Waterfall and Hotland have the most citizens, as both Ruins and COREs are considerably small enclosed spaces, with the former being literally stated as such.



Let's say the three popular areas have 80% of the population. (11680 Monsters)

Snowdin: ~3893 Citizens

Waterfall: ~3893 Citizens

Hotland: ~3894 Citizens



Now, the rest of the population is located in the core, and Ruins.

Ruins: ~1460 Citizens

CORE: ~1460 Citizens



Now, we multiply the number of SOULs to their respective scaling calcs.



Ruins: (1460*40882 J) = 0,014265707457 Tons

Snowdin: (3893*64383 J) = 0,0599051192639 Tons

Waterfall: (3893*7 MJ) = 6,5131453154876 Tons

Hotland: (3893*8.5 MJ) = 7,9088193116635 Tons

CORE: (1460*99.6 MJ) = 28,56596558317399 Tons

One of the 5 monsters that live there scales to the 8.5 MJ feat.



292*8.5 MJ = 0,5932122370937 Tons



1168*99.6 MJ = 27,804206500956 Tons



Total Energy for all Monsters: 42.893554238 Tons (City-Block level)



Single Human SOUL ~42.893554238 Tons

6 Human SOUL = 257.361325 Tons (Multi-City Block)



Peak Frisk would Scale to the 42.9 Tons value, as they clearly couldn't deal significant damage to Omega Flowey. Omega Flowey scales above the 257 Tons value.

Scaling B: @RethPo, @Theuser789

Another Method:

Scaling A is what I what I stated above, NOT what Reth tried to present. His scaling can be seen by him, where no bias from me can influence.