Undertale: The Genocide Route CRT

[Psychomaster35]

Shouldn't Photoshop Flowey's LS get a multiplier over MTT's LS? After all he restrained Asgore, Toriel, Undyne and Papyrus at the same time.

Yeah, that should be the case. I agree.

 

[ShionAH]

Shouldn't Photoshop Flowey's LS get a multiplier over MTT's LS? After all he restrained Asgore, Toriel, Undyne and Papyrus at the same time.

Bro is roasting sans

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bro is roasting sans

You're forgetting Alphys though.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Made a little calc and it gets at Class 50.

Oh well.

 

[ShionAH]

Made a little calc and it gets at Class 50.

Oh well.

Downgrade threads turning into upgrades is always nice

 

[StrymULTRA]

Downgrade threads turning into upgrades is always nice

Now it's how we argue Sans getting Class 25 lol.

 

[ShionAH]

Now it's how we argue Sans getting Class 25 lol.

If Flowey is Class 50 sans can upscale

 

[StrymULTRA]

If Flowey is Class 50 sans can upscale

PHOTOSHOP Flowey I said.

 

[ShionAH]

PHOTOSHOP Flowey I said.

Didnt flowey absorb the human souls later?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Didnt flowey absorb the human souls later?

No, he already did.

 

[ShionAH]

No, he already did.

Makes sense

 

[Jason_Courne]

Ok so using force = work / distance and accounting for friction, I got Mettaton's kicks to equal 1,028,456,630 newtons, which is Class M amounts of force

Might be fine since Mettaton can instantly dead stop his kicks

 

[StrymULTRA]

Ok so using force = work / distance and accounting for friction, I got Mettaton's kicks to equal 1,028,456,630 newtons, which is Class M amounts of force

Might be fine since Mettaton can instantly dead stop his kicks

Friction where though?

 

[Jason_Courne]

Friction where though?

You would use friction for pushing / pulling an object, whereas Mettaton is stopping an object

 

[StrymULTRA]

That sounds a bit of a reach tbh, otherwise a lot of characters get Class M.

But I am a bit neutral on it, so maybe you should ask to @Psychomaster35.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Hmmmm...
Gotta say....
I DISAGREE =)

​

..... I mean, in some places.​

TIME TO GET [$@%#]

⬤ WHAT I AGREE​

"Frisk gets a minor clean up in their speed."
I mean, sure! If it's just some clean ups, it's fine.

"Class 25 becomes Class 10"
Absolutely, that's just basic math, isn't it? No problems here.
​

---

⬤ WHAT I DISAGREE​

• DISCLAIMER: See, here is where things get a little toasty. I will share my opinion, but I will say ahead that I am not an advocate fighter against these upgrades. Please don't be needlessly prickly when addressing my points. [RESPECT]​
• Please read the entirety of the argument before replying, thank you.​

.......................Isn't that what you're normally supposed to do?​

---

"Undyne the Undying, Mettaton NEO and Chara in their new key get a 'possibly 7-C'"
So, the reason why I disagree with this is very simple. I will list them bellow, I hope I can get you to understand.​

• I believe you got the order of events confused. While it is true that Alphys stated that she just recently made Mettaton have anti-human combat features, we know that this was a big fat lie to convince the protagonist that she was a hero to their story.​

Let me make myself clear, I am not claiming that Mettaton was not a human eradication robot. I do believe he was.
This is an argument about the timeline of the events. Please pay attention.​

• While she did not lie about making Mettaton a human eradication robot, she did lie about making it just recently. In the Genocide Route dialogue, Mettaton actually revealed to us that he was originally made as a Human Eradication Robot! This, alongside the fact that we know Alphys made stuff up to make a narrative, proves she lied about the timeline of events.​

Now, listen.
If you don't know anything about the wonderous world of UNDERTALE,
OR, if you forgot about the story,
you might say
"Sure, she may have made Mettaton originally as a human eradication robot, but why does that matter? OP's still right"

I will now explain why making Mettaton originally as a Human Eradication is a problem to OP's claim!
​

• In the Neutral or Pacifist Routes, if you go to the alleyway to the right of the MTT Hotel, you will find the characters Catty and Bratty, who are former friends of Alphys, and there, they will reveal the story of how she became the Royal Scientist!​
  • It turns out, Alphys made Mettaton to impress Asgore! ("Oh no, she made Mettaton because--", both can be true, combining the useful with the enjoyable). She was THEN named the Royal Scientist, not before! Which means she made Mettaton as a human eradication robot without the knowledge she had when she was researching the human SOULs. This means we have no reason to believe she made Mettaton strong enough to destroy High-Tier Humans.​

To put the nail on the coffin, let me also point out one last thing.​

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀Yes, lord Guru?

I don't want to sound arrogant... Can we re-do this take?... No? [F$#%]​

• In the Genocide Route dialogue, Mettaton states that these fuctions were never fully removed. This already means that these functions were mostly removed from him. This already means that the version of Mettaton NEO we see is definitely not anywhere near it's full capacity, and far from being at the same level as it would be if all the functions were still in it.​
• Even then, saying Alphys is capable of creating a robot that matches high tier humans just because she knew how strong humans were is a major headcanon. Having knowledge about a threat doesn't equal having the capacity of overcoming said threat.​
• Just because Mettaton was made intended to eradicate humanity, does not mean that he can. We don't know if Alphys made him strong enough or not after all!!! ....​

TL;DR
Alphys installed these Human Eradication features before knowing how strong humans can potentially be.
Mettaton NEO is severely weaker than a hypothetical full power Human-Extintion Mettaton would be.
Even if Alphys knew about the potential human strength, we have no reason to believe she would be able to make a robot to fight it.
While the intention is to build a robot capable of killing humans, the intention wouldn't mean that she succeded.​

---

"Chara gets a new key for when they possess Frisk in Genocide"
Honestly, making the argument above made me really tired. I disagree with this because Chara was sharing a body with Frisk,
and did not take over until the very end where they attack without the player's command.

I would make a more grounded rebuttal, but I just don't have the energy at the moment.
Time to eat some Glamburgers. I hope I made my case.​

 

[ShionAH]

While the intention is to build a robot capable of killing humans, the intention wouldn't mean that she succeded.​

Disagree with this part. You literally said the reason it can be added as a possibly key. Both of them are possible = Possibly key.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Disagree with this part. You literally said the reason it can be added as a possibly key. Both of them are possible = Possibly key.

Oh yeah but: the rest of the argument.
Also

Not how it works, actually.
Possibly key is when you prove something is reliably possible but doesn't have solid evidence.

Alphys trying to make something does not mean she can.

One needs to have evidence to make a positive claim of any sort. We have no feats on the entirety of the game, that doesn't already involve the six souls, of monters or any sort of technology scaling to Full-Power Humans.

There is also no evidence that it's possible for Alphys to create such robots.
All we know is that she tried to. You still need to prove it's even possible.
Intention is not proof. It's wishful thinking!

It's possible that Alphys cannot make such robots, because a lack of ability is assumed by default when it hasn't been accomplished.
Is it possible that she could create such robots? There is no evidence that she can, so we can't claim it is.​

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The chronological argument seems pretty sound tho

 

[ShionAH]

Oh yeah but: the rest of the argument.
Also

Not how it works, actually.
Possibly key is when you prove something is reliably possible but doesn't have solid evidence.

Alphys trying to make something does not mean she can.

One needs to have evidence to make a positive claim of any sort. We have no feats on the entirety of the game, that doesn't already involve the six souls, of monters or any sort of technology scaling to Full-Power Humans.

There is also no evidence that it's possible for Alphys to create such robots.
All we know is that she tried to. You still need to prove it's even possible.
Intention is not proof. It's wishful thinking!

It's possible that Alphys cannot make such robots, because a lack of ability is assumed by default when it hasn't been accomplished.
Is it possible that she could create such robots? There is no evidence that she can, so we can't claim it is.​

I disagree so I will respond when I can after this stupid homework is done

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I disagree so I will respond when I can after this stupid homework is done

You disagree that you have to prove something is possible to give it a Possibly section? Or will you prove it's possible?
If it's the former, I really won't respond. If it's the latter, I am eager to see the evidence.

 

[ShionAH]

You disagree that you have to prove something is possible to give it a Possibly section? Or will you prove it's possible?
If it's the former, I really won't respond. If it's the latter, I am eager to see the evidence.

Obv the second one dont use latter and former my brain hurts from those

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Obv the second one dont use latter and former my brain hurts from those

I will act like a game show host from now on!
ARE YOU PICKING OPTION A
OR THE OPTION B?!?!

THE PEOPLE ARE WAITING FOR YOUR RESPONSE!!! COME ON NOW!!

Truth be told! If you don't disagree with the rest of the evidence, which actually just refutes the idea entirely... I think? I hope?
This debate will just further clog the thread. Can we have this debate in private messages? It changes nothing on the overall point
and
and
and...
...
I don't know, I don't want to bother anyone​

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Nah, I also wanna see it

 

[KingNanaya]

I should not be giggling this much
I don't have any immediate problems, but I like seeing this discussion

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Nah, I also wanna see it

You rn:

Here is a visual representation of the debate

​

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also, found more stuff that supports the fact that Mettaton NEO was the first body Alphys made,
Mettaton saying that Alphys included human murdering features to impress Asgore

Mettaton: WHY WOULD SOMEONE OUTFIT AN AMUSEMENT ROBOT… WITH BRUTAL COMBAT CAPABILITIES? SIMPLE. TO IMPRESS MR. ASGORE DREEMURR, OF COURSE!

Papyrus knew about Mettaton having “bishonen eyes” before Mettaton EX was revealed to the public

Papyrus: I JUST WANT TO HAVE HANDSOME, BISHONEN EYES. LIKE METTATON… SIGH…

 

[ShionAH]

​

It turns out, Alphys made Mettaton to impress Asgore! ("Oh no, she made Mettaton because--", both can be true, combining the useful with the enjoyable). She was THEN named the Royal Scientist, not before! Which means she made Mettaton as a human eradication robot without the knowledge she had when she was researching the human SOULs. This means we have no reason to believe she made Mettaton strong enough to destroy High-Tier Humans.​

Alphys is implied to have worked before with Sans irrc?

​

• In the Genocide Route dialogue, Mettaton states that these fuctions were never fully removed. This already means that these functions were mostly removed from him. This already means that the version of Mettaton NEO we see is definitely not anywhere near it's full capacity, and far from being at the same level as it would be if all the functions were still in it.​

Alphys tries to remove the functions but theres still a bit inside of Mettaton which he uses and transforms into Mettaton EX. In the genocide version Alphys this time starts working on Mettaton when we enter snowdin which means she had a lot of time to actually build Mettaton NEO better (You cannot say she spent time calling everyone since she failed to do so which might be the result from her working on mettaton instead of calling Asgore and etc)

• Even then, saying Alphys is capable of creating a robot that matches high tier humans just because she knew how strong humans were is a major headcanon. Having knowledge about a threat doesn't equal having the capacity of overcoming said threat.​
• Just because Mettaton was made intended to eradicate humanity, does not mean that he can. We don't know if Alphys made him strong enough or not after all!!! ...​

Yes this doesn't mean Mettaton can do that but Alphys is an extraordinary genius that is called to be actually nearly as smart as Gaster who created the CORE which is vastly above making a 7-C robot. Alphys def has the potential to do this and this means it is a reliable possibility

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Alphys is implied to have worked before with Sans irrc?

Unknown chronology and unimportant!​

Alphys tries to remove the functions but theres still a bit inside of Mettaton which he uses and transforms into Mettaton EX.

EX has nothing to do with that, it's just a new body Mettaton requested himself!​

In the genocide version Alphys this time starts working on Mettaton when we enter snowdin which means she had a lot of time to actually build Mettaton NEO better

Not a single ounce of evidence or implication that Alphys made alterations on Neo, or even Mettaton in general.​

Yes this doesn't mean Mettaton can do that but Alphys is an extraordinary genius that is called to be actually nearly as smart as Gaster who created the CORE which is vastly above making a 7-C robot. Alphys def has the potential to do this and this means it is a reliable possibility

Apples and Oranges.
CORE isn't above nor below making a 7-C robot, they are two entirely different skills in engineering.
Nuclear Factories are different than 7-C Automated Robots.​

We have no evidence that 7-C Robots can be made using the technology or intelligence level of Alphys.

 

[ShionAH]

Unknown chronology and unimportant!

EX has nothing to do with that, it's just a new body Mettaton requested himself!

Not a single ounce of evidence or implication that Alphys made alterations on Neo, or even Mettaton in general.

Apples and Oranges.
CORE isn't above nor below making a 7-C robot, they are two entirely different skills in engineering.
Nuclear Factories are different than 7-C Automated Robots.​

We have no evidence that 7-C Robots can be made using the technology or intelligence level of Alphys.

Genius levels can build Tier 7 stuff why cannot Extraordinary geniuses do that? Its very likely Alphys has this capacity tbh. I will wait for further opinions though

 

[StrymULTRA]

Alright, going from the simpliest one:

"Chara gets a new key for when they possess Frisk in Genocide"
Honestly, making the argument above made me really tired. I disagree with this because Chara was sharing a body with Frisk,
and did not take over until the very end where they attack without the player's command.

This is pretty much a pretty big fat lie, as Chara did in fact take over Frisk multiple times before, such as them bypassing Papyrus' puzzles, threatening Monster Kid or walking towards Sans on their own. Again, I have listed this blog with all the evidences, because what you said about "Chara never takes over Frisk" is a pretty big fat lie.

• It turns out, Alphys made Mettaton to impress Asgore! ("Oh no, she made Mettaton because--", both can be true, combining the useful with the enjoyable). She was THEN named the Royal Scientist, not before! Which means she made Mettaton as a human eradication robot without the knowledge she had when she was researching the human SOULs. This means we have no reason to believe she made Mettaton strong enough to destroy High-Tier Humans.​

​

You do realize that Asgore's original intent was to exterminate humanity, and it was literally said from MTT himself, correct? That's literally what he wanted to do with 7 Souls after breaking the barrier.

Asgore would have been impressed for sure if you bring to him an anti-human weapon, given that was literally his original intent.

• In the Genocide Route dialogue, Mettaton states that these fuctions were never fully removed. This already means that these functions were mostly removed from him. This already means that the version of Mettaton NEO we see is definitely not anywhere near it's full capacity, and far from being at the same level as it would be if all the functions were still in it.​

But he then says that the NEO was his "True Form", meaning that he was fighting at his fullest capabilities. With the "fully removed" at most he meant the defenses, as Alphys did in fact forget to install them back. But the fact that his ATK was so damn high is an indicator that MTT has likely indeed the same offensive power as before.

• Even then, saying Alphys is capable of creating a robot that matches high tier humans just because she knew how strong humans were is a major headcanon. Having knowledge about a threat doesn't equal having the capacity of overcoming said threat.​

The entire reason why the "possibly" reason is given in the first place. Alphys must know about the Human SOUL's capabilities, hence an anti-Human robot should overcome those no matter what according to the current knownledge she had. I know it's not the most solid evidence, but Alphys is still knownledgable after all.

• Just because Mettaton was made intended to eradicate humanity, does not mean that he can. We don't know if Alphys made him strong enough or not after all!!! ....​

Yeah, but it's not an impossibility, given her experience with human SOULs before.


Was pretty long and annoying given how many messages were made, but here we go kek.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I thing the biggest counter is that Mettaton NEO was made before Alphys started researching human SOULs, she might have read the Waterfall Glyphs, but nothing really indicates she did

 

[StrymULTRA]

I thing the biggest counter is that Mettaton NEO was made before Alphys started researching human SOULs, she might have read the Waterfall Glyphs, but nothing really indicates she did

I have seen the Catty and Bratty clip and yes, nothing is said about what was done before and after. Though, even if Alphys did MTT after that, the Glphys were already telling about the power of the Human SOULs, meaning that Alphys had indeed a reference in mind for how powerful a FP Human is.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Actually @ShionAH, I think that Sans can get back the "8-C+, possibly 7-C through Telekinesis" as it physically overpowered Chara and dealt physical damage to them, meaning you can make an argument for it being superior to Undyne and Asgore's physical power, thus even their Class 25 LS from MTT.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I mean, she started the DT experiments after becoming the Royal Scientist, which she only became after making the Mettaton NEO body,
Alphys knowning a human SOUL's full-power is way more doubtful now since she wasn't actively researching it, but I guess it's not impossible
Maybe an "At most 7-C" would work?

 

[ShionAH]

Actually @ShionAH, I think that Sans can get back the "8-C+, possibly 7-C through Telekinesis" as it physically overpowered Chara and dealt physical damage to them, meaning you can make an argument for it being superior to Undyne and Asgore's physical power, thus even their Class 25 LS from MTT.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, she started the DT experiments after becoming the Royal Scientist, which she only became after making the Mettaton NEO body,
Alphys knowning a human SOUL's full-power is way more doubtful now since she wasn't actively researching it, but I guess it's not impossible
Maybe an "At most 7-C" would work?

"At most" means downscaling, not a rating that is given as a likely/possible situation that's not fully confirmed.

Possibly works just fine.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

You do realize that Asgore's original intent was to exterminate humanity, and it was literally said from MTT himself, correct? That's literally what he wanted to do with 7 Souls after breaking the barrier.

Asgore would have been impressed for sure if you bring to him an anti-human weapon, given that was literally his original intent.

I never challenged this intent and this does nothing to refute the point that I was trying to make.
That Mettaton was made before Alphys was a Royal Scientist with research.

You're really arguing a strawman here. I know the intent behind it, I am arguing she had no research on human souls, thus a much lesser ground to make Mettaton that strong.​

But he then says that the NEO was his "True Form", meaning that he was fighting at his fullest capabilities.

OP, this is a very HUGE leap in logic.
A form is just the physical appearance of one's self.
Just because he has the same physical form, does not mean he can fight at a capability that only existed before Alphys removed them.​

With the "fully removed" at most he meant the defenses, as Alphys did in fact forget to install them back. But the fact that his ATK was so damn high is an indicator that MTT has likely indeed the same offensive power as before.

That is just not true, it could be far higher before, we don't know how strong this original version would be.
The argument being, "It's so high, it's gotta be as strong as the original" is just a logical fallacy.
Yet another leap in logic.
There is no connection at all. Just because the ATK is high, doesn't mean it's equal to a version we never saw, which could be indefinitely higher.

Alphys also did not install anything back. As Mettaton says, these were the original function that were removed far before
the player showed up.
She just never removed it completely, which is why he can tap into a part of it.

Geno NEO does not scale to H.Eradication MTT.​

The entire reason why the "possibly" reason is given in the first place. Alphys must know about the Human SOUL's capabilities, hence an anti-Human robot should overcome those no matter what according to the current knownledge she had. I know it's not the most solid evidence, but Alphys is still knownledgable after all.

The problem is you never proved it's possible in the first place.

Yes, she supposedly knows about the power of a human.
Can you prove it's even remotely possible to make such a weapon with their technology?
Can you prove Alphys has the potential capacity of building such robot?

Knowing how strong a target is not the same as having the skill, resources or technology to stop it.

If you can't prove that, even the possibly key is a stretch, and I disagree with it.​

Yeah, but it's not an impossibility, given her experience with human SOULs before.

She doesn't have any experience with the human souls when she made Mettaton.
You missed the entire point of the argument.
Of course, she may have had the basic notion due to the glphys, but
she had no specialized lab where she could measure how much energy a monster soul generates
much less a human soul.

One also cannot prove Alphys read the glphys at the time too.​

I have seen the Catty and Bratty clip and yes, nothing is said about what was done before and after.

It is said.
She made the robot to impress Asgore,
then he called her to do the science for him.​

The chrolonogy is crystal clear:

1. Meets MTT
2. Creates a body to help them and impress Asgore
3. Becomes Royal Scientist
4. Has experience on human souls

You cannot argue that she made a robot with the accurate amount of AP when she has never shown the capability to do so, and her lack of experience with souls at the time of creation further cements this point. It's currently impossible for Alphys to create a 7-C Robot.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

But I guess it's not impossible.

Those are not ground to index a rating on a profile.
"not impossible" does not mean "possibly".​

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Welp, there's some supporting evidence, like Geno Frisk being stated to be capable of eradicating humanity

Undyne: This isn’t just about monsters anymore, is it? If you get past me, you’ll… You’ll destroy them all, won’t you? Monsters… Humans… Everyone…

Mettaton: After our first meeting, I realized…something ghastly. You’re not just a threat to monsters…but humanity, as well.

We know Undyne is at least aware of the Waterfall Glyphs btw