The Undertale CRT!! (Low to High Tiers ONLY)

[Deleted member 16409]

Basically from what i see

8-A: Photoshop flowey (Either 8-B or 9-A dura when weakened)
8-B: Individual human souls

I guess it's only "At least" and likely far higher

9-A: Anybody with 29 stats or above (scaling to mettaton)

So Asgore and Toriel is.. 3 times stronger than base Mettaton?

 

[chosen]

I guess it's only "At least" and likely far higher

So Asgore and Toriel is.. 3 times stronger than base Mettaton?

Mettaton neo is
Asgore and toriel are 2,6666666666666 times

 

[BlastX]

Haha Devil number

Stats don't scale linearily like that, just determines who's stronger than who

 

[Deleted member 16409]

If stats would scale like that, Gaster would have absurd damage

 

[DaReaperMan]

We don't use data mining stats.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Gameplay mechanics in undertale are literally cannon

Nope. The Game Mechanics addressed by the game are canon. The remaining Game Mech is still just Game Mech. An example of this? Data Mined Stats, we literally don't use it despite the fact it's what the game mechanic uses. This would apply to Damage Calculation.

Wouldnt getting into a fight for survival be the main thing that makes your determination go up in any realistic scenario?

Frisk's DT goes up by doing literally nothing, so yeah. It increases every save point.

And its literally the only way frisk would suddenly fight on the level of every monster he encounters in the game without straight up ignoring the entire gameplay narrative.

They ignore narrative when it comes to stats, because the stats shown are the canon, but regardless, the data mined ones are adapted to be beaten at LV 1 because Frisk would have enough DT by then.

Its even referenced in fights with asgore and asriel and was the only thing increasing in the geno run (alongside lv) to make you stronger.

Exactly. You don't backscale a later Frisk to a former one, thank you for understanding.

Youre also using this logic of getting damaged by low tier enemies... yet youre scaling the monsters to frisk anyway... Your logic isnt consistent here...

I'm scaling Hotland Monsters to Hotland Frisk, as they are threated by them in the narrative itself, as Frisk is forced to get through them. You're scaling Ruins Monsters to Waterfall Frisk, you're the one being absurd here.

Its not even backtracking. You flat out fight and get hurt by the hotlands monsters after fighting undyne, despite undyne being flat out stronger than all of them.

How do I know how many enemies I need for the Genocide Route?

So, I have just completed the True Pacifist run in the game Undertale, and am now attempting a Genocide run. I understand that I need to kill everything, but I'm not sure if I've activated Genocide...

gaming.stackexchange.com

You can only encounter 40 (9-A) monsters in the core and hotlands combine before killing too many.

And??? That's not a representation of population, it never was.

The rest youd find are scattered across the overworld as random monsters. You still have yet to prove the population is the same level...

Froggits are found in the ruins. They are the major encounter in the area, so they should compose a decent amount of the population.
Snowdrakes are found in snowdin. They are the major encounter- Same thing.
The same appies to all areas.
Now, why would they have just a fesw
citizens tens to hundreds of times stronger than literally anyone else in the area? That's nonsense. Every Monster can use magic, and should be able to fight.

Even though we have examples of monsters like alphys and random shopkeepers living in the waterfall and hotlands yet

Weak Shopkeepers? Gerson was known as a warrior. Temmie is strong as ****, and why would a teenager like snowdrake be any stronger than a grown-ass adult rabbit lady from the same place?

being clearly weak physically.

Baseless claim, most monsters are "weak physically" per the game's own lore.

Also to back up the other point. Snowdin and the castle both have backgrounds with houses and cities and are clearly bigger than just the area we travel. The hotlands only has one hotel and some monsters dont even go there from how hot it is sooo it would make more sense for the other areas to be more densely populated. I dont even think anybody straight up lives in the core.

Frisk isnt hurt by the fall... chara as a child was (who just scales to being a human kid).

Yeah, SoG Frisk is different because...??? Yeah no. Frisk's fall was broken by the flowers.

But even then a high end wall level isnt exactly going to be unphased by falling head first onto solid ground. Also wasnt undyne hurt by an even lesser fall?

The fall was broken, and Frisk isn't Wall level+ before even getting any DT. Undyne loses an insignificant amount of HP from the fall.

Undertale is known for acknowledging options youre "never forced to do" and predicting things players do, even hacking the game. Why would it be a linear question when frisks canon stats dont make any form of linear progression whatsoever?

It makes no sense to scale Stats from a character who gets stronger through other means, not noted in the game, such as DT. It's not fair to say Frisk scales to anyone because of their stats alone.

Also you didnt read my point here. Frisks stats (which are in the narrative) do not increase at any point in the pacifist run without items.

You're expected to have items in this scene. Their stats are irrelevant to Determination and Narrative.

It makes no sense for him even from a narrative standpoint to be increasing in strength throughout the game.

They literally do. Frisk do it through Determination. Narratively, they get stomped by Asgore Level Monsters at the ruins, but they're eventually able to. They get from 9-B to 9-A with no overwhelming events required, stats are irrelevant for Frisk.

Stop bringing up random rpgs that have literally no relevance here.

"Stop bringing comparable scenarios from different games".
No. It's not done in FF, it's not gonna be done here.

Failed to knock over a tomato,

They did knock it over, actually.

did all of undynes tasks gently even with the options selected

You can do it fiercely too, this is literally optional, and does not define DT whatsoever.

Refused to hurt undyne to the point of dealing only one damage... yeahhh clearly not lacking in determination there!

That's unwillingness to hurt someone they like, how is that lack of Determination? I can just play Devil's Advocate and say they're determined to be friends with Undyne.

Still, if monsters from all different regions can appear in the castle, why assume monsters in all areas are equal in strength?

It's the capital, It has variety. It's not really a comparable scenario to other places where the citizens adapt to intense environment, as we do not know how the capital is structured. Plus, the capital is the rare exception to the rule, why should we consider IT the general rule?

...Whats that even supposed to mean? Hows that relevant here? Hes flat out listed as having the same stats as core monsters, theres no way around that. Stats are canon information given to tell us a monsters strength. Its part of the narrative isnt it?

Mettaton has 30 ATK, not 29 ATK. Stats are not linear, so having 29 ATK will not allow you to scale to Mettaton as the difference between both is unquantifiable.

I'll be quick, because I really don't feel like overexplaining shit.

Over Feat does not scale to anyone beside Waterfall Monsters because Frisk was literally filled with Determination just by being in Waterfall (18:47)

Black-Banana-Shaped People are the Monsters, but they DO appear as NPCs who live there. (7:48:55)

Frisk's Stats are irrelevant because we consider DT to increase their AP.

 

[RethPo]

Could we try making these a bit shorter? Maybe try quoting paragraphs and adressing each sentence instead of each sentence individually, just makes it easier to read lol.

Nope. The Game Mechanics addressed by the game are canon. The remaining Game Mech is still just Game Mech. An example of this? Data Mined Stats, we literally don't use it despite the fact it's what the game mechanic uses. This would apply to Damage Calculation.

They ignore narrative when it comes to stats, because the stats shown are the canon, but regardless, the data mined ones are adapted to be beaten at LV 1 because Frisk would have enough DT by then.

They address attack and defence stats in dialogue (which is all cannon, the narration and voice telling you everything being part of the story as well). Frisk getting physically hurt (in dialogue too) by monsters despite previously fighting undyne is cannon to the story. The unchanging stats frisk has are referenced in the story. Im not even talking about the data mined ones, im talking about the ones you see literally in game that are yknow, actually there to give a representations of a characters power and where they stand. Have you... actually played or even seen a playthrough of it?

Even then undertale is literally a self aware game that acknowledges most of its mechanics. Anything shown in game including stats and damage is cannon..

Exactly. You don't backscale a later Frisk to a former one, thank you for understanding.

Literally putting words in my mouth. He doesnt backscale no, he just scales. There is literally no proof of frisk in the waterfall or in undynes house being stronger than frisk in the ruins at all and its contradicted to hell.

I'm scaling Hotland Monsters to Hotland Frisk, as they are threated by them in the narrative itself, as Frisk is forced to get through them. You're scaling Ruins Monsters to Waterfall Frisk, you're the one being absurd here.

Okay so in that case why arent hotlands monsters by your logic backscaling to undyne then? Because youre saying frisk scales fully to the monsters he faces such as waterfall monsters making waterfall frisk > ruins frisk etc, yet frisk scales to undyne and glad dummy the waterfall.

And??? That's not a representation of population, it never was.

Strawman. Its a representation of the amount of 9-A monsters you fight in the hotlands/core. The actual population of that area is unknown.

Froggits are found in the ruins. They are the major encounter in the area, so they should compose a decent amount of the population.
Snowdrakes are found in snowdin. They are the major encounter- Same thing.
The same appies to all areas.
Now, why would they have just a fesw
citizens tens to hundreds of times stronger than literally anyone else in the area? That's nonsense. Every Monster can use magic, and should be able to fight.

Baseless claim, most monsters are "weak physically" per the game's own lore.

Well in the core it would make sense for only tens of monsters since yknow, no actual housing there. The hotlands causes some monsters to straight pass out and only has a labratory and a hotel, plus that place muffet lives.

Doesnt really matter though since well, alphys is blatantly treat as being weak physically even compared to other monsters and can barely keep up with papyrus or undynes training (something snowdin monsters can do). Gerson is a weak old man during the games events. Plus the burden is on you to prove that random npcs scale to the enemies you encounter in the hotlands... like seriously, when has "lives in the same area" ever been a justification for scaling...

Yeah, SoG Frisk is different because...??? Yeah no. Frisk's fall was broken by the flowers.

The fall was broken, and Frisk isn't Wall level+ before even getting any DT. Undyne loses an insignificant amount of HP from the fall.

More headcannon, Frisk gets determination at the start of the game. Its literally what makes chara awaken in him and the first save point is a burst of determination...

Frisk wasnt even implied to be badly hurt by their fall, chara was only dizzy from falling that far and hitting the ground head first. You know its the sudden stop of a fall that hurts you as well right? A high end wall level isnt going to be unphased by that like i said.

It makes no sense to scale Stats from a character who gets stronger through other means, not noted in the game, such as DT. It's not fair to say Frisk scales to anyone because of their stats alone.
You're expected to have items in this scene. Their stats are irrelevant to Determination and Narrative.

Scales to everyone because of their stats alone? No, youre missing the point completely. THE NUMBERS THAT LIST HIS PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES NEVER CHANGE THROUGHOUT THE STORY. What dont you get about that? He blatantly has no actual linear progression outside of killing intent and items.

Youre not expected to have items at all, thats headcannon. You have to go out of your way to even find them... even if you do theyre just addons in brackets and his base stats are unchanged. Youre literally just arguing with belief at this point.

No, his stats are relavant to either his bloodlust or physical attributes. His stats would increase if he actually kept the strength he gained from the determination fighting every person.

They literally do. Frisk do it through Determination. Narratively, they get stomped by Asgore Level Monsters at the ruins, but they're eventually able to. They get from 9-B to 9-A with no overwhelming events required, stats are irrelevant for Frisk.

Frisk doesnt get stomped by asgore level monsters in the ruins. He can fight and kill toriel in the ruins actually even faster than he can with asgore. Youre just lying man.

Narratively, someone having a linear progression from low tier to top tier, when they fight the top tiers evenly early on and in the middle of the game while getting explicitely hurt by weaker monsters at every other point including hotlands is completely contradictory. His determination is known to vary and its known to increase his strength, his strength also varies since he fights at the level of every monster he faces (fighting stronger then weaker foes). Occams razor makes it so that his strength varies depending on his determination.

"Stop bringing comparable scenarios from different games".
No. It's not done in FF, it's not gonna be done here.

Despite final fantasy being a completely ******* different game in every way that functions nothing like undertales narrative with no self aware game aspects to it... Have fun making false equivilances i guess.

You can do it fiercely too, this is literally optional, and does not define DT whatsoever. That's unwillingness to hurt someone they like, how is that lack of Determination? I can just play Devil's Advocate and say they're determined to be friends with Undyne.

Yet him doing it feircly does hardly any damage to what undyne expects and again, doesnt to any kind of damage to undyne at all. Anddd, i guess you could?

The main reason besides that frisk likely doesnt have any is because the only times he actually is determined is either when being attacked by someone or during save points where its actually said when hes determined with a reason...

Even if he somehow did have determination despite being completely off guard and everything, why would this scale to waterfall monsters? His determination and strength isnt set in stone and theres no basis as to who would be able to damage frisk or not damage them in that instance. Since yknow, his determination actually varies?

Mettaton has 30 ATK, not 29 ATK. Stats are not linear, so having 29 ATK will not allow you to scale to Mettaton as the difference between both is unquantifiable.

Multiple core monsters who have 29 attack fight alongside other core monsters so yes, pyrope would scale

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Spoiler: Wordy Debate, meh

Huh.

They address attack and defence stats in dialogue (which is all cannon, the narration and voice telling you everything being part of the story as well).

You see, unlike me, you're not providing any evidence. So I will ignore your point entirely.

Frisk getting physically hurt (in dialogue too) by monsters despite previously fighting undyne is cannon to the story.

In the pacifist route, you're given a spear to defend yourself, and you literally flee from her. Does not scale.

The unchanging stats frisk has are referenced in the story.

False.

Im not even talking about the data mined ones, im talking about the ones you see literally in game that are yknow, actually there to give a representations of a characters power and where they stand. Have you... actually played or even seen a playthrough of it?

I did, and I'd like to know where you took all this headcanon from.

Let me bundle up your point: "Strawman"
I never said ATK or DEF ON SCREEN weren't canon, I said damage calculation isn't canon. I said data mined ATK and DEF aren't canon, not the ones on screen. You went on a different tangent, so this is likely red Herring as well. You never debunked those, so let's move on.

Even then undertale is literally a self aware game that acknowledges most of its mechanics. Anything shown in game including stats and damage is cannon.

Nope. Being self aware of some of the mechanics does not equal every little mechanic being part of the canon. You have to prove that specific mechanic to be canon, otherwise, it isn't.

Literally putting words in my mouth. He doesnt backscale no, he just scales. There is literally no proof of frisk in the waterfall or in undynes house being stronger than frisk in the ruins at all and its contradicted to hell.

It's not contradicted, you're literally just saying that.
Also, stop using "he" to refer to Frisk, it's confusing as ****.

They have more determination, therefore they should be stronger.
What's the evidence that Frisk is stronger against Asgore? Determination.
What's the evidence that Frisk was stronger against against Omega Flowey or Asriel?
Determination.

Every subsequent SAVE Point increases Frisk's Determination further, so they are progressively getting stronger.

What do you MEAN there's no evidence for Frisk getting stronger? They progressively fight Monster with far higher ATK and DEF throughout the entire game, you're asking to scale a Frisk who has enough Determination to fight ~20 ATK/DEF Monsters to 1 ATK/DEF Monsters. It doesn't ******* work.

Okay so in that case why arent hotlands monsters by your logic backscaling to undyne then?

Pacifist Frisk doesn't defeat Undyne, and doesn't come close to her even with the best gear. (Which they are dependent to deal any significant damage to Undyne, proving their DT alone wasn't enough to win against her at the time.)

Because youre saying frisk scales fully to the monsters he faces such as waterfall monsters making waterfall frisk > ruins frisk etc, yet frisk scales to undyne and glad dummy the waterfall.

I scale Post-Hotland Frisk to Undyne, even with their best gear at the time, they wouldn't come close.

Strawman. Its a representation of the amount of 9-A monsters you fight in the hotlands/core. The actual population of that area is unknown.

Fair, but get this:
Your point literally doesn't make any sense if you're not referring to population.

The amount of monsters you have to kill before becoming notorious is irrelevant to the number of monsters present in there.

Well in the core it would make sense for only tens of monsters since yknow, no actual housing there.

The CORE can be shuffled around like a puzzle, so we don't know.

Doesnt really matter though since well, alphys is blatantly treat as being weak physically even compared to other monsters

Oh yeah, the nerdy stereotype is physically weak. Well, GUESS THIS APPLIES TO EVERYONE

and can barely keep up with papyrus or undynes training

Says who?

(something snowdin monsters can do).

Says who?

Gerson is a weak old man during the games events. Plus the burden is on you to prove that random npcs scale to the enemies you encounter in the hotlands... like seriously, when has "lives in the same area" ever been a justification for scaling...

More headcannon, Frisk gets determination at the start of the game.

Its literally what makes chara awaken in him and the first save point is a burst of determination...

GREAT THAT YOU THINK THAT. The Chara part is absolute headcanon, there is ZERO evidence for that in the pacifist run.

Frisk wasnt even implied to be badly hurt by their fall

Flowers literally broke their fall.

chara was only dizzy from falling that far and hitting the ground head first.

Have you ever even touched this game?

You know its the sudden stop of a fall that hurts you as well right? A high end wall level isnt going to be unphased by that like i said.

Yes they are.

Scales to everyone because of their stats alone? No, youre missing the point completely. THE NUMBERS THAT LIST HIS PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES NEVER CHANGE THROUGHOUT THE STORY.

"Scales to everyone because of their stats alone? NO, IT'S BECAUSE THE STATS NEVER CHANGE, SO IT SCALES TO EVERYONE"
The floor is made out of floor. Circular bullshit, nah.
Stats are irrelevant, Frisk scales to higher ATK/DEF Monsters via DT alone.

What dont you get about that? He blatantly has no actual linear progression outside of killing intent and items.

They do. They can fight higher tier monster without any equipment.

Youre not expected to have items at all, thats headcannon. You have to go out of your way to even find them... even if you do theyre just addons in brackets and his base stats are unchanged. Youre literally just arguing with belief at this point.

Fair 'nuff.

No, his stats are relavant to either his bloodlust or physical attributes. His stats would increase if he actually kept the strength he gained from the determination fighting every person.

Frisk doesnt get stomped by asgore level monsters in the ruins. He can fight and kill toriel in the ruins actually even faster than he can with asgore. Youre just lying man.

You're the one lying, TORIEL LITERALLY DOESN'T WANT TO FIGHT YOU. Her defenses break down (or Frisk willingness to kill is bigger), and she doesn't attack after you get down to 2HP. She can defeat you in two or three turns if she wanted to.

What, you want to scale ******* Ruins-Level Monsters to ASGORE? You're being delusional.

Narratively, someone having a linear progression from low tier to top tier, when they fight the top tiers evenly early on and in the middle of the game while getting explicitely hurt by weaker monsters at every other point including hotlands is completely contradictory.

You said a full paragraph of nothing. Frisk never fights Toriel evenly.

His determination is known to vary and its known to increase his strength, his strength also varies since he fights at the level of every monster he faces (fighting stronger then weaker foes). Occams razor makes it so that his strength varies depending on his determination.

"is known", it isn't. Frisk has higher DT the further you get into the game (as you can ignore your shitty stats and fight high tier Monsters) and there's zero narrative clues that their DT gets any lower after simply saving.
And yes, DT increases one's strength, good thinking. We don't scale a Frisk from further in the game after events which can trigger DT and multiple SAVE points which boosts their DT to earlier monsters.

Despite final fantasy being a completely ******* different game in every way that functions nothing like undertales narrative with no self aware game aspects to it... Have fun making false equivilances i guess.

It's far from a false equivalency. The fact Undertale is self aware to some of its mechanics means nothing to this comparison.

RPG Game Char has Universal+ feat, said Char can be damaged by earlier foes. Said earlier foes do not get backscaled because Damage Calculator isn't canon.

Yet him doing it feircly does hardly any damage to what undyne expects and again,

And? Human level Frisk!! Nah.

doesnt to any kind of damage to undyne at all.

Literally, ZERO INTENT TO HURT UNDYNE. They CAN do damage Undyne as proved earlier, but they don't feel like it.

The main reason besides that frisk likely doesnt have any is because the only times he actually is determined is either when being attacked by someone or during save points where its actually said when hes determined with a reason...

Getting Determination from hearing the Waterfall = Fair Game
Getting Determination by wanting to become friends with Undyne = ABSURD!!! RIDICULOUS!!!

Even if he somehow did have determination despite being completely off guard and everything.

This isn't ki, being off guard doesn't mean shit.

Why would this scale to waterfall monsters? His determination and strength isnt set in stone and theres no basis as to who would be able to damage frisk or not damage them in that instance. Since yknow, his determination actually varies?

It doesn't. Frisk has the same DT as they had in the Waterfall by the save points, which are still comparable to WF Monsters.

Multiple core monsters who have 29 attack fight alongside other core monsters so yes, pyrope would scale

Rather than removing said CORE Monsters, you decided to include this one from Hotland? No.

TL;DR: If Frisk can have larger DT by watching a Waterfall, or by playing with god damn leaves, they can get DT by cooking, absolutely.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

So, Undyne SURVIVED the explosion 9-A without having even an armor. So I think with armor she will be higher, same with Undyne form what a lot of time stronger that Undyne in armor.

And, can we scale Asgore&Toriel to Undyne?
(Btw, I don't think that sans would be updated to 9-A because of 1 stats)

 

[Psychomaster35]

So, Undyne SURVIVED the explosion 9-A without having even an armor. So I think with armor she will be higher, same with Undyne form what a lot of time stronger that Undyne in armor.

And, can we scale Asgore&Toriel to Undyne?
(Btw, I don't think that sans would be updated to 9-A because of 1 stats)

Probably, though she would have to upscale from the Waterfall scaling due to the armor

If you even read above, we are already scaling Toriel and Asgore to Mettaton’s feat

 

[GodlyCharmander]

TL;DR: If Frisk can have larger DT by watching a Waterfall, or by playing with god damn leaves, they can get DT by cooking, absolutely. d

Scaling from a Frisk who can fight ~20 ATK/DEF Monsters means you're also scaling said Monsters to 1 ATK/DEF Monsters. It doesn't work.

I will not be replying further (as a lot of it is circular scaling).

I stand by this statement, and I'd like to know opinions from everyone else.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Honestly, yeah I agree with Charmander. Frisk tanking Undyne’s explosion was only when he had grown determination, so his base form without it should only scale to the beginning of the game where he falls to the underground.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I'd like to add, do you think it's absurd to think the citizens scales to the monsters we fight when, for example, Snowdrake is considered to be just a teenager comedian, or Tsunderplane and Vulkin are treated as just random NPCs. Same applies to Froggit, and whatnot. Monsters we fight are considered and treated as just normal people, why would they scale so much higher? They're no superpowered monsters.

 

[RethPo]

Ill respond later but the royal guards are already trained to stop humans and so is papyrus. Aaron is basically an athlete etc. So basically the only people that scale to waterfall monsters, assuming that youre right, would be the ones we know about. The other 12000 would just scale to probably weaker snowdin monsters or ruins ones.

How do I know how many enemies I need for the Genocide Route?

So, I have just completed the True Pacifist run in the game Undertale, and am now attempting a Genocide run. I understand that I need to kill everything, but I'm not sure if I've activated Genocide...

gaming.stackexchange.com

Going by the above link though youd have
12000 low tier monsters
18 waterfall monsters
40 hotlands/core monsters (mettaton themselves doesnt count to towards the soul count)
And papyrus, undyne, toriel and asgore

Which would make flowey large building instead

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ill respond later but the royal guards are already trained to stop humans and so is papyrus. Aaron is basically an athlete etc.

What? No. There are multiple Aarons, and a lot of Waterfall Monsters scale to Aaron without being athletes.
We're NOT using Genocide Numbers to totalize a type of monster.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So, we have two suggestions so far.
Mine, which puts Flowey at 8-A by scaling each Monster to its respective location, and not allowing Waterfall Frisk to scale to an earlier version of themself. (Which we will call scaling A)

And Reth, which puts Flowey at High 8-C by assuming the Monsters we fight to be far above the general population, and backscaling Waterfall Frisk to an earlier version of themself. (Which we will call scaling B)

Both arguments can be seen above, in the thread. Psycho agreed with Scaling A.

Scaling A: @Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @chosen, @Originlima, @FarerPurple

Scaling B: @RethPo, @Theuser789

Another Method:

 

[chosen]

I agree with scaling A

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Also, I need to fix the scaling a little because Rech brought up a good point. Not every Core Monster scales above or equally to Mettaton, so I'd have to take this into account. I'll edit it now.

Spoiler: Scaling A redone

We have 5 different locations.

Ruins Monsters (Scales to Chara's calc)

Snowdin Monsters (Scales to Ice Wolf's calc)

Waterfall Monsters (Scales to Oven's Explosion)

Hotland Monsters (Scales to Pyrope's Calc)

CORE Monsters (Scales to Mettaton's Calc)



The Underground have about 14600 Monsters (who have access to his show, could be more)



Snowdin, Waterfall and Hotland have the most citizens, as both Ruins and COREs are considerably small enclosed spaces, with the former being literally stated as such.



Let's say the three popular areas have 80% of the population. (11680 Monsters)

Snowdin: ~3893 Citizens

Waterfall: ~3893 Citizens

Hotland: ~3894 Citizens



Now, the rest of the population is located in the core, and Ruins.

Ruins: ~1460 Citizens

CORE: ~1460 Citizens



Now, we multiply the number of SOULs to their respective scaling calcs.



Ruins: (1460*40882 J) = 0,014265707457 Tons

Snowdin: (3893*64383 J) = 0,0599051192639 Tons

Waterfall: (3893*7 MJ) = 6,5131453154876 Tons

Hotland: (3893*8.5 MJ) = 7,9088193116635 Tons

CORE: (1460*99.6 MJ) = 28,56596558317399 Tons

One of the 5 monsters that live there scales to the 8.5 MJ feat.



292*8.5 MJ = 0,5932122370937 Tons



1168*99.6 MJ = 27,804206500956 Tons



Total Energy for all Monsters: 42.893554238 Tons (City-Block level)



Single Human SOUL ~42.893554238 Tons

6 Human SOUL = 257.361325 Tons (Multi-City Block)



Peak Frisk would Scale to the 42.9 Tons value, as they clearly couldn't deal significant damage to Omega Flowey. Omega Flowey scales above the 257 Tons value.

 

[RethPo]

Uhhhuhhhh, lemme finish my response and make a short summary before deciding on any scaling here.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Uhhhuhhhh, lemme finish my response and make a short summary before deciding on any scaling here.

Please, take your time. We are not going to take a decision until you reply, so you don't have to worry. Regardless, I will not be replying with another wall of text even if I don't agree with your reply, as I believe I made my stance clear here, so keep that in mind. (I will express myself by stating if I agree or not, still)

 

[RethPo]

Please, take your time. We are not going to take a decision until you reply, so you don't have to worry. Regardless, I will not be replying with another wall of text even if I don't agree with your reply, as I believe I made my stance clear here, so keep that in mind. (I will express myself by stating if I agree or not, still)

In that case ill try to cover what matters since a lot of it is redundant now.

For the 14000 number though i am kinda okay with it. Though 12000 is where the quiz is supposed to end (despite easily going higher). I dont know if theres an upper limit but ive never seen anybody go beyond 15000 sooo im kinda neutral there.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

I think that Asriel&Chara have Low 2-C because of "The Prophecy"

 

[Deleted member 16409]

So, we have two suggestions so far.
Mine, which puts Flowey at 8-A by scaling each Monster to its respective location, and not allowing Waterfall Frisk to scale to an earlier version of themself. (Which we will call scaling A)

And Reth, which puts Flowey at High 8-C by assuming the Monsters we fight to be far above the general population, and backscaling Waterfall Frisk to an earlier version of themself. (Which we will call scaling B)

Both arguments can be seen above, in the thread. Psycho agreed with Scaling A.

Scaling A: @Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @chosen

Scaling B: @RethPo

Another Method:

Let me say... "At least 8-A, likely far higher"

 

[Deleted member 16409]

ok I want to talk about Low 2-C Undertale

 

[BlastX]

Make another thread then

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Let me say... "At least 8-A, likely far higher"

I know. Either way, would you like to vote?
Nevermind, I'll let Reth finish their summary.

ok I want to talk about Low 2-C Undertale

No God Tiers allowed.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

I know. Either way, would you like to vote?

I mean, voting for "8-A, likely far higher" FloweyX.

No God Tiers allowed.

Ok, sure.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

By the way, can we upgrade his Information Manipulation via "Controller Removed" xbox screen where he threating us about deleting our data?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

By the way, can we upgrade his Information Manipulation via "Controller Removed" xbox screen where he threating us about deleting our data?

He doesn't do it, so it's likely just him using Text Manipulation/Reality Warping alongside his 4th Wall Awareness.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

He doesn't do it, so it's likely just him using Text Manipulation/Reality Warping alongside his 4th Wall Awareness.

how strong is it?

 

[Deleted member 16409]

but, is black wall with no music after it just reality warping?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

but, is black wall with no music after it just reality warping?

Yes. It doesn't do anything offensively against the player or your game.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Yes. It doesn't do anything offensively against the player or your game.

(Can we use "ignore your save files stats, items and interaction" as information Manipulation?)

 

[RethPo]

Spoiler: Db8 thing

Okay half of this is literally just shoving words into my mouth, missing the point entirely or just saying "no u wrong"... I cant tell if you just cant comprehend anything people tell you from flipping out like this or just doing it on purpose to strawman

You see, unlike me, you're not providing any evidence. So I will ignore your point entirely.
False.

Well if me having to link everything will help calm your egotistical tantrum and help you actually read for once! Theres many instances of the battleboard being taken seriously including monsters acknowledging their own as well as memory head literally messing with the games data to make their stats your own stats plus ten and remove data on their check options.

Frisks stats being referenced in story is false... sure buddy

I did, and I'd like to know where you took all this headcanon from.

Let me bundle up your point: "Strawman"
I never said ATK or DEF ON SCREEN weren't canon, I said damage calculation isn't canon. I said data mined ATK and DEF aren't canon, not the ones on screen. You went on a different tangent, so this is likely red Herring as well. You never debunked those, so let's move on.

Damage calculation? You mean the damage dealt in numbers generally or the numbers shown on screen? I mean the numbers are technically cannon but i dont even know why you brought it up when im clearly talking about monsters simply damaging you. Which actually is cannon and even referenced in story like even you said yourself with the hotlands.

Nope. Being self aware of some of the mechanics does not equal every little mechanic being part of the canon. You have to prove that specific mechanic to be canon, otherwise, it isn't.

Undertale is literally aware of its entire battleboard system, its save and load system, its stats for both frisk and monsters, flowey and the player going back through loading and exploring to discover every possibility in the game (shown in floweys geno dialogue and one of the main themes of undertale), several other mechanics, and is pretty much known for acknowledging its own existence. Anything thats either directly shown in game or directly mentioned is cannon. Can we leave it there?

It's not contradicted, you're literally just saying that.. Also, stop using "he" to refer to Frisk, it's confusing as ****. They have more determination, therefore they should be stronger. What's the evidence that Frisk is stronger against Asgore? Determination. What's the evidence that Frisk was stronger against against Omega Flowey or Asriel? Determination.

Every subsequent SAVE Point increases Frisk's Determination further, so they are progressively getting stronger.

What do you MEAN there's no evidence for Frisk getting stronger? They progressively fight Monster with far higher ATK and DEF throughout the entire game, you're asking to scale a Frisk who has enough Determination to fight ~20 ATK/DEF Monsters to 1 ATK/DEF Monsters. It doesn't ******* work.

I explained why its contradicted by frisks lack of change in stats. What do you mean just saying that?

Aight so i see your point. Determination boosts strength (i agree) and save points increase his determination. What youre glossing over here is
1. Those specific save points only happen at specific instances of frisk having a huge amount of determination. Like the waterfall, save point in the village etc. Youre assuming he just keeps that determination which isnt proveable at all and why would he?
2. Frisk only has that determination when hes fighting the monsters. E.g. when he fights undyne he has enough determination to contend with them, later he can fight hotlands monsters evenly, then fights muffet, then fights core monsters evenly. Its nothing to do with "STAHP SCALING A FROOSK WHO CAN CONTEND WITH WATERFALL MONSTERS TO RUINS FRISK! IT DONT MAKE SENSE ". He is literally fighting at the same level as every monster regardless of strength due to the determination he has while doing so. In a situation where hes not determined even later in the game he would be ruins level, not waterfall level. If you cant comprehend that then theres no helping you.

Pacifist Frisk doesn't defeat Undyne, and doesn't come close to her even with the best gear. (Which they are dependent to deal any significant damage to Undyne, proving their DT alone wasn't enough to win against her at the time.)

I scale Post-Hotland Frisk to Undyne, even with their best gear at the time, they wouldn't come close.

You can literally kill undyne as a level one with no items. Dont even try to say its "not expected". Theres an actual ending for it.

Fair, but get this:
Your point literally doesn't make any sense if you're not referring to population.

The amount of monsters you have to kill before becoming notorious is irrelevant to the number of monsters present in there.

The CORE can be shuffled around like a puzzle, so we don't know.

Oh yeah, the nerdy stereotype is physically weak. Well, GUESS THIS APPLIES TO EVERYONE

Says who?

Says who?

This line (unless maybe you argue its her getting her

The royal guards? I mean theyre hired by undyne to fight, itd make sense for her to have trained them even a little.

GREAT THAT YOU THINK THAT. The Chara part is absolute headcanon, there is ZERO evidence for that in the pacifist run.

I have an old blog that goes over it under the link between chara and frisk part but tl;dr, frisk landed on the bed of flowers and that was literally the moment chara reincarnated into frisk and part of how frisk gets controlled. Thats just getting off topic though honestly.

Flowers literally broke their fall. Have you ever even touched this game? Yes they are.

I know. Frisk had there fall broken twice and didnt get hurt. Chara got hurt but didnt have there fall broken. What is your point here?

I just told you why a high end wall level would get hurt by the sudden stop of a fall and your argument is "theyd get hurt". Definitely not an argument from beleif or anything mister "I provide so much evidence so ill just ignore everyone else"

"Scales to everyone because of their stats alone? NO, IT'S BECAUSE THE STATS NEVER CHANGE, SO IT SCALES TO EVERYONE"
The floor is made out of floor. Circular bullshit, nah.
Stats are irrelevant, Frisk scales to higher ATK/DEF Monsters via DT alone.

They do. They can fight higher tier monster without any equipment.

Fair 'nuff.

You're the one lying, TORIEL LITERALLY DOESN'T WANT TO FIGHT YOU. Her defenses break down (or Frisk willingness to kill is bigger), and she doesn't attack after you get down to 2HP. She can defeat you in two or three turns if she wanted to.

What, you want to scale ******* Ruins-Level Monsters to ASGORE? You're being delusional.

You said a full paragraph of nothing. Frisk never fights Toriel evenly.

Well your point of toriel outright stomping frisk never happens either. But toriel does want to fight you, just not kill you. She actually has an instance of when she doesnt want to fight you at which point she gets one shotted. Its only that point shes vulnerable, the rest shes trying to weaken frisk to make him flee and/or test his strength.

Im not scaling ruins level monsters to asgore, youre delusional for even believing that shit when ive clearly never made that statement. Youve got the idea a "fact" embedded so far into your head that you think that "they are absolutely growing in power and keeping it, and are ruins level at the start and anybody who argues otherwise must surely be scaling them" which is why youre not reading a damn thing im saying and refuse to be convinced on anything. So imma cut it here and summarise both our points and the logic behind them. I can do the same thing and claim youre scaling hotland monsters to undyne and core monsters to muffet based on your own proposal

Alright so tl;dr to sum both these arguments up

For the scaling:

Current scaling chain on the profiles where frisks power varies and he fights on the level of whoever hes engaged with, being at his weakest in a situation where hes not determined:
-Frisk beating undyne, toriel, mad mew mew (switch version), muffet and others at lv 1 and going on to fight evenly with far weaker monsters makes sense since his power varies between different levels.
-Frisks stats focus on how dangerous frisk is to monsters based on lv, boosts gained through items or his general strength and make sense all around. His strength doesnt grow through the story so it makes sense for them to be unaffected (till you factor in actual fight scenarios where you cant really check them if im not mistaken).
-Frisks strength varies with his determination. Save points are just temporary bursts of determination that allow him to go back. Being less determined will make frisk weaker, being more so will make him stronger.

Scaling charmanders proposing where frisk gets more powerful throughout the story with determination and keeps said power:
-Frisk beating undyne, toriel, muffet etc and being hurt later by far weaker monsters is either somehow all an outlier, or he just drops his determination and strength later (which disproves him keeping permanentaly keeping his strength from determination to begin with). Either that or hotlands monsters somehow backscale to undyne.
-Frisks strength increase throughout the story just means nothing towards his attack and defence despite them being cannon and only lv and item boosts do while other physical strength just doesnt matter.
-Frisks power that he gains from determination is (mostly?) permanent and his determination almost never drops as a result of any event that makes him so until he reloads. His emotion just never changes...

For the oven feat. Under the first scenario frisk either has no determination meaning hes at his weakest which ruins monsters scale to. Or he has some determination, but how much he has in that moment is unknown which means theres no real telling who it scales to.

Under the second scenario..... im not sure how thats even supposed to work but assuming he has determination the feat would either scale anywhere between waterfall monsters or undyne and toriel themselves since hes already weilded both levels of determination. Either that or how much he has in that specific moment is unknown again so it could be any level.

Though I still do think he more likely has less determination since like i said, he only shows to have it at save points or in actual combat, the latter being the only point where his strength actually increases and pmuch auto adapts depending on who hes fighting.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Spoiler: Db8 thing

Okay half of this is literally just shoving words into my mouth, missing the point entirely or just saying "no u wrong"... I cant tell if you just cant comprehend anything people tell you from flipping out like this or just doing it on purpose to strawman

Well if me having to link everything will help calm your egotistical tantrum and help you actually read for once! Theres many instances of the battleboard being taken seriously including monsters acknowledging their own as well as memory head literally messing with the games data to make their stats your own stats plus ten and remove data on their check options.

Frisks stats being referenced in story is false... sure buddy

Damage calculation? You mean the damage dealt in numbers generally or the numbers shown on screen? I mean the numbers are technically cannon but i dont even know why you brought it up when im clearly talking about monsters simply damaging you. Which actually is cannon and even referenced in story like even you said yourself with the hotlands.

Undertale is literally aware of its entire battleboard system, its save and load system, its stats for both frisk and monsters, flowey and the player going back through loading and exploring to discover every possibility in the game (shown in floweys geno dialogue and one of the main themes of undertale), several other mechanics, and is pretty much known for acknowledging its own existence. Anything thats either directly shown in game or directly mentioned is cannon. Can we leave it there?

I explained why its contradicted by frisks lack of change in stats. What do you mean just saying that?

Aight so i see your point. Determination boosts strength (i agree) and save points increase his determination. What youre glossing over here is
1. Those specific save points only happen at specific instances of frisk having a huge amount of determination. Like the waterfall, save point in the village etc. Youre assuming he just keeps that determination which isnt proveable at all and why would he?
2. Frisk only has that determination when hes fighting the monsters. E.g. when he fights undyne he has enough determination to contend with them, later he can fight hotlands monsters evenly, then fights muffet, then fights core monsters evenly. Its nothing to do with "STAHP SCALING A FROOSK WHO CAN CONTEND WITH WATERFALL MONSTERS TO RUINS FRISK! IT DONT MAKE SENSE ". He is literally fighting at the same level as every monster regardless of strength due to the determination he has while doing so. In a situation where hes not determined even later in the game he would be ruins level, not waterfall level. If you cant comprehend that then theres no helping you.

You can literally kill undyne as a level one with no items. Dont even try to say its "not expected". Theres an actual ending for it.

This line (unless maybe you argue its her getting her

The royal guards? I mean theyre hired by undyne to fight, itd make sense for her to have trained them even a little.

I have an old blog that goes over it under the link between chara and frisk part but tl;dr, frisk landed on the bed of flowers and that was literally the moment chara reincarnated into frisk and part of how frisk gets controlled. Thats just getting off topic though honestly.

I know. Frisk had there fall broken twice and didnt get hurt. Chara got hurt but didnt have there fall broken. What is your point here?

I just told you why a high end wall level would get hurt by the sudden stop of a fall and your argument is "theyd get hurt". Definitely not an argument from beleif or anything mister "I provide so much evidence so ill just ignore everyone else"

Well your point of toriel outright stomping frisk never happens either. But toriel does want to fight you, just not kill you. She actually has an instance of when she doesnt want to fight you at which point she gets one shotted. Its only that point shes vulnerable, the rest shes trying to weaken frisk to make him flee and/or test his strength.

Im not scaling ruins level monsters to asgore, youre delusional for even believing that shit when ive clearly never made that statement. Youve got the idea a "fact" embedded so far into your head that you think that "they are absolutely growing in power and keeping it, and are ruins level at the start and anybody who argues otherwise must surely be scaling them" which is why youre not reading a damn thing im saying and refuse to be convinced on anything. So imma cut it here and summarise both our points and the logic behind them. I can do the same thing and claim youre scaling hotland monsters to undyne and core monsters to muffet based on your own proposal

Alright so tl;dr to sum both these arguments up

For the scaling:

Current scaling chain on the profiles where frisks power varies and he fights on the level of whoever hes engaged with, being at his weakest in a situation where hes not determined:
-Frisk beating undyne, toriel, mad mew mew (switch version), muffet and others at lv 1 and going on to fight evenly with far weaker monsters makes sense since his power varies between different levels.
-Frisks stats focus on how dangerous frisk is to monsters based on lv, boosts gained through items or his general strength and make sense all around. His strength doesnt grow through the story so it makes sense for them to be unaffected (till you factor in actual fight scenarios where you cant really check them if im not mistaken).
-Frisks strength varies with his determination. Save points are just temporary bursts of determination that allow him to go back. Being less determined will make frisk weaker, being more so will make him stronger.

Scaling charmanders proposing where frisk gets more powerful throughout the story with determination and keeps said power:
-Frisk beating undyne, toriel, muffet etc and being hurt later by far weaker monsters is either somehow all an outlier, or he just drops his determination and strength later (which disproves him keeping permanentaly keeping his strength from determination to begin with).

Uhhh, no. Frisk does not beat Undyne without equipment, as they do negligible damage to her. Toriel is actively not trying to kill you, and her defense gradually lowers as the fight keeps going, and the same applies to Muffet. No matter how you see it, all these fights at LV 1 are incredibly difficult without any equipment to make it reasonably even, and the Boss Monsters are portrayed as massively stronger than Frisk is.

This is just me replying to a misrepresented point of mine.


I disagree with your proposal.

The thought of Frisk's Determination fluctuating to extreme degrees throughout every scenario is just absurd to me.

The thought of: Frisk has Wall level DT, they get Small Building level DT by simply watching a waterfall, immediately, it drops to Wall level again by leaving the SAVE point, then it goes back to Small Bulding level DT when a Monsters shows up- It increases again for the next SAVE--

It just seems a far fetched and unsupported assumption, other than being redundant of course. I stand by my scaling.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Huh, you were dishonest in some of these replies, I'll be brief.

Frisks stats being referenced in story is false... sure buddy

Chara is talking to the player.

I just told you why a high end wall level would get hurt by the sudden stop of a fall and your argument is "theyd get hurt".

False. You just claimed they would get hurt, and never elaborated. A 7 Megajoule Durability Character wouldn't even feel a 48 Kilojoule fall, yet, Chara got injured by it.

In no moment you proved Frisk was at their weakest in the Oven feat, because that's not quantifiable, hence, your scaling depends on a very generous assumption.

 

[Theuser789]

Frisk does not beat Undyne without equipment, as they do negligible damage to her.

You can absolutely defeat Undyne without equipment, in fact you can beat ASGORE without equipment and healing, you can beat the entire game like that actualy, something I did awhile ago, read this post even linked the neutral ending where Sans aknoweldges that, no idea why you are saying such an objectively false statment as an argument

Anyways, if that means anything I completely agree with Read this post on the scaling, the counter arguments just reek of confirmation bias imo

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You can absolutely defeat Undyne without equipment, in fact you can beat ASGORE without equipment and healing, you can beat the entire game like that actualy, something I did awhile ago, read this post even linked the neutral ending where Sans aknoweldges that, no idea why you are saying such an objectively false statment as an argument.

Yes, you can. The neutral ending does not aknowledges the lack of items, I don't know why you'd say that. Either way, my point is, you do negligible damage to said bosses, Undyne is clearly superior to Frisk during their fight is what I mean. Frisk does not scale to Undyne at that point. You're determined against Asgore so naturally his datamined stats are adapted accordingly.

Anyways, if that means anything I completely agree with Read this post on the scaling, the counter arguments just reek of confirmation bias imo

I assume you mean Reth. Counted.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Yes, you can. The neutral ending does not aknowledges the lack of items, I don't know why you'd say that. Either way, my point is, you do negligible damage to said bosses, Undyne is clearly superior to Frisk during their fight is what I mean. Frisk does not scale to Undyne at that point. You're determined against Asgore so naturally his datamined stats are adapted accordingly.

By the way, Frisk can beat Asgore, Mettaton and Undyne WITHOUT saves and items. It's proved by Special Sans and Asriel dialogues.
At Sans call, he mentions that we didn't save and use just a stick with our basic defence.
And at the Asriel fight, says that we didn't save in our whole game through