Undertale: Photoshop Flowey-sized Revision

[StrymULTRA]

This is mad "Only my interpretation is right" vibes.

Cope.

Read it again, Flowey says they'll inherit the power once Frisk is gone, meaning you the weaker DT gives the stronger one their control, you can't do that to time powers that have nothing to do with this little transaction.

If a guy steals the rights from you from nulling these, then it's inherithed, lol.

The scan says the person with the highest Determination inherits the control of the timeline given by the ability, the scan literally proves Determination being the thing that gives you your power once you reach a certain threshold, you INHERENT this from the last user. Either a universe rule, or something determination does, the reason why someone else wouldn't fall under these rules is the simple fact their time hax don't operate on Determination. It's that simple.

See? Ignoring the whole wall of text, it's simple that only one interpretation is right: the one that DT allows either one or none to control the timeline, it can't allow two people at the same time to have control.

Allowing a non-Undertale guy to have time haxes in face of a UT one defeats the whole point of Determination granting control to the timeline only to the one with highest DT.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

If a guy steals the rights from you from nulling these, then it's inherithed, lol.

ME WHEN I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE WORD "INHENRIT"
No, that's not inhenriting anything.​

See? Ignoring the whole wall of text, it's simple that only one interpretation is right: the one that DT allows either one or none to control the timeline, it can't allow two people at the same time to have control.

DT inhenrits the power to control the timeline from the second highest DT, it doesn't nullify anything.
In a match, both characters would have their time haxes, unless it was another UT character

Your conclusion is right
but doesn't mean jack shit if you ignore the conditions that lead to it.
Also it's twisted, DT only allows one DT user controlling it at the time, it doesn't null time hax as address before. Travelling through time is still possible without using the SAVE and LOAD options.​

 

[StrymULTRA]

ME WHEN I DON'T UNDERSTAND THE WORD "INHENRIT"
No, that's not inhenriting anything.

Forcefully doing so it's a thing, duh.

DT inhenrits the power to control the timeline from the second highest DT, it doesn't nullify anything.

It's textbook power null, given he said their DT was strong enough to stop him.

In a match, both characters would have their time haxes, unless it was another UT character

Ergo you're basically defeating the point of only the highest DT having control of the timeline, making the whole Asriel fight pointless.

Your conclusion is right
but doesn't mean jack shit if you ignore the conditions that lead to it.

I'm not ignoring, I am simply using a valid approach through Verse Equalization to how DT would react to other time haxes, ergo layers of power null.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Forcefully doing so it's a thing, duh.

Good strawman!
It still wouldn't be inheriting the power and therefore your example is null!​

It's textbook power null, given he said their DT was strong enough to stop him.

I don't know what to tell you other than the truth.
It's not textbook power null.

You need to be actively rendering your target incapable of using their powers.
In this case, the second strongest Determination is bequeathing the power to the highest one, aka, inheriting it from the previous owner.​

Ergo you're basically defeating the point of only the highest DT having control of the timeline, making the whole Asriel fight pointless.

Of course
You're right!!
When we put two characters from different universes, the narrative of only one of these universes is not perfectly respect.
BECAUSE
the Asriel fight DOESN'T INVOLVE OTHER PROPERTIES

What a terrible refute.​

It's more-than-allowed to defeat the point of Undertale's writing, it's not entitled to that point. Universes where multiple time users are allowed should just bow down to Undertale's rules? Heck no.

I'm not ignoring, I am simply using a valid approach through Verse Equalization to how DT would react to other time haxes, ergo layers of power null.

We're not doing layers, we've been over this already. Overpowering hax doesn't grant layers, NO DON'T USE DRAGON BALL AGAIN. Ki, unlike DT, does grant the user resistance based on sheer power, DT has a hierarchy and doesn't grant resistances.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Good strawman!
It still wouldn't be inheriting the power and therefore your example is null!

Actually it does exist, so...

You need to be actively rendering your target incapable of using their powers.
In this case, the second strongest Determination is bequeathing the power to the highest one, aka, inheriting it from the previous owner.

If it was like you say, both Asriel and Frisk would be able to, because both were the highest ones, but it's not, because of their DT nulling each other's RESET powers.

It's more-than-allowed to defeat the point of Undertale's writing, it's not entitled to that point. Universes where multiple time users are allowed should just bow down to Undertale's rules? Heck no.

Heck yes, because said verses do not have the context of Undertale. If in X verse has a hax which works against a thing that lacks said thing to affect (example soul hax that affects soulless beings) and it faces a soulless dude from Y verse which always was immune to soul stuff because of this, we assume that X's hax works.

Same here, other verses' time hax do not overpower the opponent's usage of it, meaning that Undertale can indeed, because of verse equalization, as the mechanics are the same and compatible.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Actually it does exist, so...

LMFAO
Sorry I can't take this serious, you didn't actually try to use a civil law to get inherance over a deceased person as an example.

And that's not stealing either, you just googled whatever was convenient and posted here, that's true desperation.​

If it was like you say, both Asriel and Frisk would be able to, because both were the highest ones, but it's not, because of their DT nulling each other's RESET powers.

None could inherent the reset power

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE POWER NULL
You speak like this is the absolute FACTUAL canonical explanation
You're wrong, Strym​

Heck yes, because said verses do not have the context of Undertale. If in X verse has a hax which works against a thing that lacks said thing to affect (example soul hax that affects soulless beings) and it faces a soulless dude from Y verse which always was immune to soul stuff because of this, we assume that X's hax works.

Undertale IS NOT ENTITLED TO IT'S CONTEXT during Vs Matches.
It has no authority, nor prority to get it's way.

I don't care if having two people using time hax contradicts the intentions of Undertale.
The intentions and context is of no importance to the match.​

Same here, other verses' time hax do not overpower the opponent's usage of it, meaning that Undertale can indeed, because of verse equalization, as the mechanics are the same and compatible.

Frisk overpowers Determination to inherent the time hax, they don't overpower other time hax at all. It's starting to become dishonest in my point of view, it seems to me you're making random claims to distract me from actually debating what matters.


I'm unfollowing.

Mostly agree with the proposals, neutral on the layers thing though.

Chill, you two. It's clear you ain't convincing each other. You've laid out your points, wait for staff evaluation.

Looks good.

Please read my points about power nullification, this will give an UNDOUBTEDLY unfair advantage for Frisk in VsMatches.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Sorry I can't take this serious, you didn't actually try to use a civil law to get inherance over a deceased person as an example.

And that's not stealing either, you just googled whatever was convenient and posted here, that's true desperation.

It does not make me wrong though?

None could inherent the reset power

IT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE POWER NULL
You speak like this is the absolute FACTUAL canonical explanation
You're wrong, Strym

As if you do not talk with the same arrogance. You're the one steaming off the "you're dumb, I am right" vibe.

Please read my points about power nullification, this will give an UNDOUBTEDLY unfair advantage for Frisk in VsMatches.

Not really. If the opponent has enough layers in power null or has things like erasing on a history, concept level and so on it could still be dealt with.

Plus you talk as if this is the first time, Jojo has busted Invisibility/Intangibility through Layers, Anos can overcome hax through layers too, so why can't Undertale have busted time hax too?

I'm unfollowing.

Bye bye.

EDIT I have forgot.

Frisk overpowers Determination to inherent the time hax, they don't overpower other time hax at all. It's starting to become dishonest in my point of view, it seems to me you're making random claims to distract me from actually debating what matters.

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Meaning that time travel/reversal of another verse will be equalized to SAVE and LOAD.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Basically what I am saying. They're shown to nullify other's hax, with just one being the one able to control the timeline due to how DT works.

If you don't call this overpowering an hax, then idk lol.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Bye bye.

If this goes through, I will attempt to downgrade it by compilling the arguments I've had here. It's easy to do whatever you see fit when staff might not see the counter arguments.

Verse equalization: Similar supernatural aspects of verses get equalized in a reasonable fashion. So a supernatural energy that almost everyone in a Verse has, which is necessary to fight the characters of said Verse, will be assumed to be the equivalent energy that the opponents use in their techniques so that a proper fight can happen.

Meaning that time travel/reversal of another verse will be equalized to SAVE and LOAD.

Furthermore, attacks that require a special type of energy to be effective, like anti-magic requiring magic, will be assumed to work against the energies of different Verses, as long as they are somehow similar and the mechanics are somehow compatible with the known mechanics behind the energies from different Verses. For example, mind control resistance by being a capable mind user would also work against other Verses, but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses. It is also important to note that characters won't lose or gain any abilities or resistances which they do or do not inherently possess. However, if an ability has a weakness, condition, caveat, or limitation, consistently shown throughout its use (such as not working on characters under a specific condition, like energy gap) or stated by a valid and uncontradicted statement, then it should be applicable after the equalization.

Funny how you ignored "but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses."
I don't need to explain how this example works for any hax right? I hope so, it would be funny to see you say "Well, it's not mind control so who cares".

We've literally debated this on Discord, and you know Flowey didn't actually do jack shit to Frisk's SAVE.
You couldn't hold your own there, you won't here, just drop it.

This is actually a major anti-feat, lmfao

 

[DaReaperMan]

Just saying, this would only apply to time travel, not general time Manipulation cause Sans has Time Stop.

 

[StrymULTRA]

If this goes through, I will attempt to downgrade it by compilling the arguments I've had here. It's easy to do whatever you see fit when staff might not see the counter arguments.

And it'll fail for the same reasons you'll be rejected here? Don't assume that Staff does not read just because they disagree with your bad points.

Funny how you ignored "but mind control resistance through a strong will would not necessarily work against mind control from other Verses."
I don't need to explain how this example works for any hax right? I hope so, it would be funny to see you say "Well, it's not mind control so who cares".

"Not necessairly" does not mean "it can't", it depends on the context.

We've literally debated this on Discord, and you know Flowey didn't actually do jack shit to Frisk's SAVE.

Please don't use the "the file0/9 are actually intact", because this is not DDLC where the game folder is canon.

Plus, people can change their mind, you know.

Just saying, this would only apply to time travel, not general time Manipulation cause Sans has Time Stop.

I was generalizing but yeah. Mettaton has some kind of time rewind too iirc.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I still think Styrm is making more sense here

 

[Greatsage13th]

I still think Styrm is making more sense here

Agreed

 

[Greatsage13th]

I was generalizing but yeah. Mettaton has some kind of time rewind too iirc.

What?

 

[StrymULTRA]

What?

Whatever is this I mean.

Regardless, the Power Null should be against Time Travel/Resets. Some profiles list it as simple Time Manipulation, so for simplicity's sake I'll list it as such lol (though obviously is not against ALL the forms of time manip).

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I still think Styrm is making more sense here

After I proved it's not even nullification that's happening?
After I proved layers cannot be added if the hax isn't overpowering a resistance?

Hell no, I'm done with Undertale on this wiki.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

That's a bit far, no? Like it's a single ability

 

[Greatsage13th]

After I proved it's not even nullification that's happening?
After I proved layers cannot be added if the hax isn't overpowering a resistance?

Hell no, I'm done with Undertale on this wiki.

Keep it down will ya? You can do another CRT to dismantle this one, once you have ample evidence.

 

[StrymULTRA]

After I proved it's not even nullification that's happening?
After I proved layers cannot be added if the hax isn't overpowering a resistance?

Hell no, I'm done with Undertale on this wiki.

Cope.

Keep it down will ya? You can do another CRT to dismantle this one, once you have ample evidence.

This would literally be a spite CRT

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

This would literally be a spite CRT

As long as you don't admit it was done out of spite, nothing can really be done

 

[StrymULTRA]

As long as you don't admit it was done out of spite, nothing can really be done

Ngl but a "no U" CRT is indeed spiteful, if it's made right after you failed to reject said CRT.

But it's not the place to discuss it, we've derailed enough.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Ngl but a "no U" CRT is indeed spiteful, if it's made right after you failed to reject said CRT.

But it's not the place to discuss it, we've derailed enough.

One could call it spite if it was simply the same exact evidence plus different interpretation of what it was originally.

 

[StrymULTRA]

One could call it spite if it was simply the same exact evidence plus different interpretation of what it was originally.

Doubt it'd be any different from here ngl.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I'd need just one more staff vote, correct?

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump

 

[StrymULTRA]

Bump (help)

 

[DarkGrath]

• Chara gets a new key for when they have possessed Frisk in Genocide and an Unknown in intelligence

I'm mostly okay with this. There is some vagueness around how exactly you're supposed to interpret the presence of Chara in the Genocide route, but the interpretation provided in the OP is a more than reasonable one given the evidence. Considering that we have to make a choice how to interpret it one way or the other, this should be fine.

• Class 25 LS becomes Class 10, with Photoshop Flowey being >x4 that and Asriel being "possibly Infinite"

Reduction of Class 25 LS down to Class 10 seems fine.

Photoshop Flowey... I'm contentious on the fact that, depending on the mechanism, restraining 4 people wouldn't necessarily need 4x the lifting strength of restraining 1 person. However, as an estimate, I don't particularly mind it - one way or the other, Photoshop Flowey's lifting strength is clearly substantially above each of the other characters. Where my problem comes from is that, given the rough and intangible nature of exactly how much extra force it would take to restrain all 4 of them in that situation, we don't have a good precedent for using an exact multiplier; increasing Photoshop Flowey's lifting strength to an exact statistic by multiplying from the other character's lifting strengths could therefore be considered akin to calc stacking. I'd personally prefer if Photoshop Flowey's lifting strength was listed as "At least Class 10, likely higher", or something along those lines.

Asriel being given "possibly Infinite" lifting strength seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I do see the logic behind it, but it's a huge inference; we see on one occasion that an increase in power co-occurs with an increase in lifting strength, yes, but how do we know that this pattern would be maintained? How do we know that Flowey further increasing his power will indefinitely increase his lifting strength? I would be okay with "possibly Infinite" lifting strength if this was a consistently demonstrated pattern, but as it stands, we only have one notable example. One instance of co-occurrence is not a pattern.

• 9-A+ and 8-C become 9-A

Seems fine.

• Flowey gets more scans to him lacking a SOUL / The Player gets more info about their existence as a note

Nothing wrong with just adding more evidence for what is already there.

• Monsters get a physiology page

This seems warranted. The unique physiology of monsters in Undertale is an important point in the plot, and one that could theoretically influence versus matches. I'm almost surprised we don't already have one.

• Frisk gets a "2-B via TRUE RESET"

This is, to be clear, environmental destruction? I don't see this as scaling to Frisk's stats, but it is a relevant feat nonetheless.

• DETERMINATION becomes a layered hax which is a combo between Time Travel/Rewind and Power Null

The controversial one, apparently. Frankly, this is kind of a weird situation, and I don't mind how we choose to phrase this on the profiles; in the end, it doesn't result in a whole lot of differences for indexing or for versus matches. However, if it were up to me, I do not think DT warrants being listed as a form of Power Null. Simply put, the user of DT is not "power nulling" anyone; what we perceive as power null is just an indirect consequence of the fact that only one person can use the powers that come with DT at a time. They are not doing anything that causes other people's powers to be nulled, they are just using the powers themselves that other people would've otherwise had. To give a rough analogy; if we think of DETERMINATION as "bids" on a product, where the person who makes the highest bid gets the product, then the person who makes the highest bid has done nothing to every other bidder. They just got the product, and the consequence of that is that other people don't get to have the product. I don't see this kind of indirect claim on power as meaningful to list as Power Null, and I further don't see how it would be relevant outside of the very specific context that Undertale exists in.

As mentioned, though, I don't particularly mind how we choose to acknowledge this on the profiles. I don't believe it warrants convoluted layered hax, and I don't believe indirect, circumstantial consequences of a power should be listed as a part of that power. But as long as we're listing it in a way that enables it to be accurately represented in the context of versus matches, I don't mind how we choose to describe it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Asriel being given "possibly Infinite" lifting strength seems like a bit of a stretch to me. I do see the logic behind it, but it's a huge inference; we see on one occasion that an increase in power co-occurs with an increase in lifting strength, yes, but how do we know that this pattern would be maintained? How do we know that Flowey further increasing his power will indefinitely increase his lifting strength? I would be okay with "possibly Infinite" lifting strength if this was a consistently demonstrated pattern, but as it stands, we only have one notable example. One instance of co-occurrence is not a pattern.

You're forgetting that the SOUL boost is an exponential one, as one SOUL makes a monster 8-A from 9-B/9-A, but 7 makes them 2-B. This is why I'm suggesting such a jump.

This is, to be clear, environmental destruction? I don't see this as scaling to Frisk's stats, but it is a relevant feat nonetheless.

Yeah.

As mentioned, though, I don't particularly mind how we choose to acknowledge this on the profiles. I don't believe it warrants convoluted layered hax, and I don't believe indirect, circumstantial consequences of a power should be listed as a part of that power. But as long as we're listing it in a way that enables it to be accurately represented in the context of versus matches, I don't mind how we choose to describe it.

Would a "likely" suffice here then? Because the staff vote tally is split.

Besides I said it's power null against other Time Travel abilities given that only the one with highest DT can do it, unless the opponents has feats of countering such abilities as well.

 

[Jason_Courne]

Wait a minute Papyrus's recalc is just friction force alone, not including the actual push force

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wait a minute Papyrus's recalc is just friction force alone, not including the actual push force

The push force it's already in Newton though.

 

[Jason_Courne]

The push force it's already in Newton though.

No, friction force is just the amount of force that "resists" movement of an object
Push force is the force behind actually moving that object

Push force should always be significantly greater than friction force

 

[StrymULTRA]

No, friction force is just the amount of force that "resists" movement of an object
Push force is the force behind actually moving that object

Push force should always be significantly greater than friction force

This not how friction based calcs work here.

 

[Jason_Courne]

This not how friction based calcs work here.

That's just kinda how pushing calcs work, you need to find the actually pushing force and then add the frictional force

Friction wouldn't make it easier to push an object

 

[StrymULTRA]

That's just kinda how pushing calcs work, you need to find the actually pushing force and then add the frictional force

Friction wouldn't make it easier to push an object

I am literally following the standard format what the hell?

 

[ImmortalDread]

Just quote him the standard, smh

 

[StrymULTRA]

Just quote him the standard, smh

I'm not on PC rn, would get calcs easier.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

The Monsters page should probably also get Law Manip for the same reason Sans has it tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

The Monsters page should probably also get Law Manip for the same reason Sans has it tho

Nah, the "turn" thing is more interpreted as act of attacking, rather than them literally standing in place.

After all, Asgore does indeed dodge Undyne.

Besides, even if is a different game, Deltarune has shown fights being more than turn based in cutscenes, with Undertale just not showing it as much because of the graphics limitation compared to DR.

 

[DaReaperMan]

BTW I can't recall, is the Papyrus bone Calc the big ass one he YEETS at you?

 

[StrymULTRA]

BTW I can't recall, is the Papyrus bone Calc the big ass one he YEETS at you?

Both the small and big one.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Nah, the "turn" thing is more interpreted as act of attacking, rather than them literally standing in place.

After all, Asgore does indeed dodge Undyne.

I wasn't arguing that they literally can't move during the other person's turn, Frisk always dodges attacks from Monsters in their turn, but they still get forced into turn-based combat when a FIGHT happens, otherwise Sans' "nothing" attack wouldn't make any sense

Besides, even if is a different game, Deltarune has shown fights being more than turn based in cutscenes, with Undertale just not showing it as much because of the graphics limitation compared to DR.

Ehh. Deltarune probably doesn't follow the same rules as UT, Monsters don't have magic and everyone has DT, so I don't think we can use the former to prove anything in the latter