Undertale: Photoshop Flowey-sized Revision

[StrymULTRA]

I wasn't arguing that they literally can't move during the other person's turn, Frisk always dodges attacks from Monsters in their turn, but they still get forced into turn-based combat when a FIGHT happens, otherwise Sans' "nothing" attack wouldn't make any sense

Problem is, monsters can't use it like Sans does. It's still out of their control, unlike Sans who can abuse the turn rule.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Problem is, monsters can't use it like Sans does. It's still out of their control, unlike Sans who can abuse the turn rule.

I mean, the fact that FIGHTs have a turn rule in the first place is probably enough to be indexed,
That kinda changes how most fights would go down

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Sans also isn't the only Monster that abuses it really, Gerson kinda does so as well

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, the fact that FIGHTs have a turn rule in the first place is probably enough to be indexed,
That kinda changes how most fights would go down

FIGHTs are assumed to be just the act in itself of attacking, given that when Undyne attacked you, no turn was really used.

Sans also isn't the only Monster that abuses it really, Gerson kinda does so as well

...because he's a shopkeeper if anything here.

I don't see how this would apply to every monster outside of these two, really. We don't see anything happening outside of Danmaku, and we're now blending game mechanics with P&A too much. Just because some monsters can, it doesn't mean that people literally can't do anything against them except dodging until it's their turn to FIGHT.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

FIGHTs are assumed to be just the act in itself of attacking, given that when Undyne attacked you, no turn was really used.

I could argue that the sequence was just a really long attack, or that Frisk didn't enter a FIGHT during that sequence, so the turn-based stuff doesn't apply, like the Mettaton cooking game-show, also it's like 2 scenes vs the turn-based combat of every fight in the game

...because he's a shopkeeper if anything here.

I kinda took it as that the player cannot kill him if they are not in a FIGHT, which suggests that fighting Monsters is inherently tied to the rules and mechanics of the turn-based system, otherwise nothing really makes Gerson anymore different than any monster we find in Waterfall

I don't see how this would apply to every monster outside of these two, really. We don't see anything happening outside of Danmaku, and we're now blending game mechanics with P&A too much. Just because some monsters can, it doesn't mean that people literally can't do anything against them except dodging until it's their turn to FIGHT.

The way they phrased it kinda implies that it's a fundamental rule of FIGHTs rather than like, their own unique abilities, which means that every monster would be capable of doing so if they tried. Plus, Gerson is an ancient turtle monster and Sans is a skeleton, the only thing they have in common would be their knowledge Ig

Another thing that supports the turn-based mechanics being canon, is well, the Instant Noodles.
Multiple bloodlusted monsters, who were either hired to kill you, or like the Amalgamates would just attack you out of instinct, wait for more than 5 minutes till Frisk finishes making the noodles, which really suggest that lads actually couldn't attack you while you were doing so

 

[StrymULTRA]

Another thing that supports the turn-based mechanics being canon, is well, the Instant Noodles.
Multiple bloodlusted monsters, who were either hired to kill you, or like the Amalgamates would just attack you out of instinct, wait for more than 5 minutes till Frisk finishes making the noodles, which really suggest that lads actually couldn't attack you while you were doing so

Alright this is goddamn weird.

Neutral on it now.

 

[Starsprite53]

I agree with the OP

 

[Andytrenom]

I disagree with layered power nullification, I will get that out immediately. I will look at the other stuff in a while

 

[Andytrenom]

Okay so infinite lifting strength I think is based too much on extrapolation to warrant a possibly rating

The AP revision makes sense

Speed revision is fine too

Adding additional scans for soullessness is also fine

I might be missing something, was True Reset agreed to be Frisk's ability instead of the Players' earlier?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I might be missing something, was True Reset agreed to be Frisk's ability instead of the Players' earlier?

Frisk probably also has it since they could rival Asriel's DT

 

[Andytrenom]

I don't see how that's evidence

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I don't see how that's evidence

The True Reset comes from DT ---> Asriel has enough DT to use it ---> Frisk has = amount of DT as Asriel ---> Frisk should be able to use the True Reset

 

[ShionAH]

The True Reset comes from DT ---> Asriel has enough DT to use it ---> Frisk has = amount of DT as Asriel ---> Frisk should be able to use the True Reset

Frisk has more DT than Asriel no?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Frisk has more DT than Asriel no?

Think they're about even, since neither could SAVE or LOAD during that fight

 

[Andytrenom]

I don't think we can assume a character has the same ability for working under the same power system and being equally powerful to another character

 

[ShionAH]

I don't think we can assume a character has the same ability for working under the same power system and being equally powerful to another character

Determination = Time Travel/Resurrection nothing more nothing less

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

After reading DarkGrath's comment, I agree with em fully.

 

[Andytrenom]

Also what is the nature of the player in the verse? Do we assume he even works on determination or is he different?

 

[ImmortalDread]

After reading DarkGrath's comment, I agree with em fully.

Same ^^

 

[ShionAH]

Also what is the nature of the player in the verse? Do we assume he even works on determination or is he different?

We assume he works on determination. The whole Low 1-C thing was gonna change it but it got rejected

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think we can assume a character has the same ability for working under the same power system and being equally powerful to another character

In Undertale we literally do lmfao.

Asriel wanted to use the TRUE RESET, and he said later that Player can do it too.

Chara even used it to restore the game world after its destruction, and Frisk prevented Asriel from using it.

Meaning that Frisk can do it too because their DT prevented Asriel from using it.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Frisk has more DT than Asriel no?

No.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Though I might add a calc for Photoshop Flowey's size.

It's still gonna be Type 1 but I got around 14 m tall last time.

 

[Andytrenom]

At best I can agree with a possibly 2B rating since Frisk never demonstrated having that ability iirc

 

[StrymULTRA]

At best I can agree with a possibly 2B rating since Frisk never demonstrated having that ability iirc

I mean it'd be at best Environmental Destruction regardless.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I assume that everything outside of Layered Power Null and Infinite LS is accepted, right?

 

[Andytrenom]

I don't think the attack potency should be in tabbers for Chara's profile.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think the attack potency should be in tabbers for Chara's profile.

We do already for Asriel though.

Plus would be more readable in tabbers.

 

[ShionAH]

I hate tabbers in AP or other stats. It looks ugly…real ugly

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Frisk probably also has it since they could rival Asriel's DT

I don't see how that's evidence

For the record, Undyne the Undying had enough Determination to overpower Frisk/Chara during the genocide route, yet still didn't have any time hax.

 

[StrymULTRA]

For the record, Undyne the Undying had enough Determination to overpower Frisk/Chara during the genocide route, yet still didn't have any time hax.

So?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

So?

Having comparable Determination doesn't necessarily mean you get time hax. I agree with Andy's possibly rating.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Having comparable Determination doesn't necessarily mean you get time hax. I agree with Andy's possibly rating.

I'll still add a full given that all the staff agreed with that kek.

Besides, Undyne did not have comparable DT at all, she only was physically stronger at most.

 

[StrymULTRA]

I don't think the attack potency should be in tabbers for Chara's profile.

I assume that everything outside of Layered Power Null and Infinite LS is accepted, right?

You did not answer my question tho

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

For the record, Undyne the Undying had enough Determination to overpower Frisk/Chara during the genocide route, yet still didn't have any time hax.

Did she? If she had enough DT to rival a human SOUL, then she'd actually be like 8-A

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Anyway, how should the monster's Law Manip be worded, maybe something like,

• Law Manipulation: When one encounters a monster they enter a FIGHT, with turn-based combat being its most defining feature. This is acknowledged and demonstrated by various monsters. For instance, Sans is capable of extending his turn indefinitely, effectively stalemating Frisk and preventing their actions by exploiting these rules. Additionally, ruthless monsters, whether hired or driven by instinct, adhere to these rules, allowing Frisk to complete their turn even when consuming the Instant Noodles, which take over 5 minutes to prepare. Gerson's inability to be killed can be attributed to the fact that he never enters a FIGHT encounter with Frisk.

Could probably mention Royal Guard 1 & 2 following these rules, not only in the Genocide Route, but even if you kill one of them, that's probably one of the bigger ones

 

[StrymULTRA]

turn-based combat

This is from the demo guide, right?

whether hired or driven by instinct,

You should add links instead of just profiles. Mettaton saying he hired them works.

Could probably mention Royal Guard 1 & 2 following these rules, not only in the Genocide Route, but even if you kill one of them, that's probably one of the bigger ones

Link? Too lazy to check rn.

 

[Andytrenom]

You did not answer my question tho

Most of it is fine. Just the attack potency shouldn't be in tabbers for Chara's profile

 

[StrymULTRA]

Most of it is fine. Just the attack potency shouldn't be in tabbers for Chara's profile

Why shouldn't it be? Because Asrielalready does, and Chara's 2nd key makes things a bit harder to read. Besides not just Undertale does this.

Anyway, how should the monster's Law Manip be worded, maybe something like,

• Law Manipulation: When one encounters a monster they enter a FIGHT, with turn-based combat being its most defining feature. This is acknowledged and demonstrated by various monsters. For instance, Sans is capable of extending his turn indefinitely, effectively stalemating Frisk and preventing their actions by exploiting these rules. Additionally, ruthless monsters, whether hired or driven by instinct, adhere to these rules, allowing Frisk to complete their turn even when consuming the Instant Noodles, which take over 5 minutes to prepare. Gerson's inability to be killed can be attributed to the fact that he never enters a FIGHT encounter with Frisk.

Could probably mention Royal Guard 1 & 2 following these rules, not only in the Genocide Route, but even if you kill one of them, that's probably one of the bigger ones

There's also this now.

Plus I made a calc on Photoshop Flowey size.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is from the demo guide, right?

Ye

You should add links instead of just profiles. Mettaton saying he hired them works.

Will do so, here's the link

Link? Too lazy to check rn.