The Undertale CRT!! (Low to High Tiers ONLY)

[Psychomaster35]

And at the Asriel fight, says that we didn't save in our whole game through

Pretty sure that was the Photoshop Flowey fight, not Asriel

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Pretty sure that was the Photoshop Flowey fight, not Asriel

Do you remember "Maybe with that little power, you can SAVE someone else"?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

By the way, Frisk can beat Asgore, Mettaton and Undyne WITHOUT saves and items. It's proved by Special Sans and Asriel dialogues.
At Sans call, he mentions that we didn't save and use just a stick with our basic defence.
And at the Asriel fight, says that we didn't save in our whole game through

It's fine, the protagonist gets DT through other means. But you're definitely going to SAVE in most cases, as the narrative makes more sense with it. Either way, using very unlikely scenarios to scale a character seems to be way too unreliable.

 

[Theuser789]

Yes, you can. The neutral ending does not aknowledges the lack of items, I don't know why you'd say that. Either way, my point is, you do negligible damage to said bosses, Undyne is clearly superior to Frisk during their fight is what I mean. Frisk does not scale to Undyne at that point. You're determined against Asgore so naturally his datamined stats are adapted accordingly.

How does Frisk not scale if they can kill her? And she isn't holding back or anything to justify it, also yes, it does aknowledge the lack of items

Neutral Route

Please... Young one...This war has gone on long enough.You have the power...Take my soul, and leave this cursed place. Asgore Dreemurr The Neutral Route is one of the three primary routes in Undertale. In this route, the final boss is Photoshop Flowey, though after fighting him once (without...

undertale.fandom.com

I don't know why you would say that

 

[GodlyCharmander]

How does Frisk not scale if they can kill her?

Because they do negligible damage without equipment. That's like scaling them to someone 100 levels higher because they've spent 8000 turns dealing 1 dmg. It's clearly different when they're fighting someone like Pyrope when both of them can fight each other equally, with Frisk being able to defeat them within a couple of turns. For Frisk to scale to Undyne, they'd have to be comparable to her, they're not.

And she isn't holding back or anything to justify it, also yes, it does aknowledge the lack of items.

You do realize I meant the lack of EQUIPMENT right? Why would consumable items matter in this debate?

 

[Theuser789]

Where did you get the idea Frisk does "negligible" damage? They do almost 100, the difference of damage between the stick and the shoes is 40 damage at best, plus without equipment they take like 5 damage instead of 3, this is what I meant by confirmation bias, you argue as if there's this huge gap that isn't proved/show.

You do realize I meant the lack of EQUIPMENT right? Why would consumable items matter in this debate?

...That ending is if you are at LV 1, kept the bandage (ergo didn't switch equipment) and never healed, it's explained in the video and the wikia, but since you don't seem to know much about the variation between each ending here's the ending where you always keep the bandage


And here's where you never heal


They aren't the same

 

[Theuser789]

Unrelated but monsters with 20 AT/DF should scale to Mettaton's wall feat since both Undyne and the Royal Guards have 30 AT or above but only have 20 DF and aren't treated as MTT NEO tier glass cannons

Edit: There's also Muffet and Whimsalot and although I am not super sure about the latter, the former is definitively not treated as a glass cannon, so either they downscale or stats are ignored

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Where did you get the idea Frisk does "negligible" damage? They do almost 100, the difference of damage.

Against Undyne they don't. With the book equipment, at LV 1, they do 29 damage, without it, they do about 10. As always, as the fight progresses, they do more damage as their killing intent rises, thus, weakening her. But they don't scale to Undyne normally, they would if they were capable of fighting Undyne on equal ground.

They only do about 90 damage at LV 10, with equipment.

They do significant damage against Toriel, but it's because of Monster's weakness, since she actively don't want to fight you for real, her defense drops, and Frisk's insistance in defeating Toriel makes their intent stronger, which also weakens Monsters. (1:31:00)

...That ending is if you are at LV 1, kept the bandage (ergo didn't switch equipment)

The bandage is defensive equipment, Undyne destroys you with a few hits in their fight. There is no ending addressing the lack of a weapon.

 

[Theuser789]

Against Undyne they don't. With the book equipment, at LV 1, they do 29 damage, without it, they do about 10. As always, as the fight progresses, they do more damage as their killing intent rises, thus, weakening her. But they don't scale to Undyne normally, they would if they were capable of fighting Undyne on equal ground.

They only do about 90 damage at LV 10, with equipment.

So you just proved there's not a big gap? The difference is 3 times, and again, if they didn't scale they wouldn't even be able to harm her, like in her date, you seem to believe that downscaling exists, do you understand the difference between the tier you are claming Frisk are with the tier Undyne is? This is what I mean by confirmation bias, you are already assuming Frisk doesn't scale to Undyne without actually proving they don't and basing your argumentation on that fact being self evident

The bandage is defensive equipment, Undyne destroys you with a few hits in their fight. There is no ending addressing the lack of a weapon.

The Bandage gives 0 DF, it's not a defensive equipment, every monster can destroy Frisk in a few hits in pacifist because their HP is low, even with the best equipment Asgore can kill you in 4 hits, and yes, there is the first ending I showed you.

I can't believe I am playing through Undertale again just to see the damage post patch

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So you just proved there's not a big gap? The difference is 3 times, and again, if they didn't scale they wouldn't even be able to harm her,

3 times is not a big gap? Good that you think that. Frisk is still far weaker than Undyne is, and therefore doesn't scale.
The gap is still present, however. With or without equipment, the gap between the DAMAGE VS UNDYNE'S HEALTH is still insanely big.
Also, who was the hypothetical idiot who told you that minimally harming a character makes you scale to their full strength?
What kind of wild assumption is this? Do you think we scale characters who are FAR weaker than the ones they fight? No. Frisk scales to 7 Megajoules, Undyne scales to 99.6 Megajoules without being weakened, this is not contradicted by the fight at ALL.

like in her date, you seem to believe that downscaling exists, do you understand the difference between the tier you are claming Frisk are with the tier Undyne is?

Don't put words in my mouth, at this point, you're pretty much locked into the pacifist route until you leave her house. Frisk has zero fighting or killing intent, therefore she did 1 damage, it's that simple. (Which also effectively proves Frisk doesn't scale to her normally even with Waterfall DT)

This is what I mean by confirmation bias, you are already assuming Frisk doesn't scale to Undyne without actually proving they don't

I don't have to prove a negative. You're the one with said bias, as you assume the act of barely scratching a character (for example) means you scale to said character's full power. Frisk can only deal significant damage after dropping Undyne's defenses. You absolutely don't scale both characters.

The Bandage gives 0 DF, it's not a defensive equipment, every monster can destroy Frisk in a few hits in pacifist because their HP is low.

Frisk can equally destroy said Monsters at the point if their fight.

even with the best equipment Asgore can kill you in 4 hits, and yes, there is the first ending I showed you.

It does NOT address the lack of weapons. And yes, Asgore can stomp you. Frisk only scales to him when they have enough DT.

 

[Theuser789]

3 times is not a big gap? Good that you think that. Frisk is still far weaker than Undyne is, and therefore doesn't scale.
The gap is still present, however. With or without equipment, the gap between the DAMAGE VS UNDYNE'S HEALTH is still insanely big.
Also, who was the hypothetical idiot who told you that minimally harming a character makes you scale to their full strength?
What kind of wild assumption is this? Do you think we scale characters who are FAR weaker than the ones they fight? No. Frisk scales to 7 Megajoules, Undyne scales to 99.6 Megajoules without being weakened, this is not contradicted by the fight at ALL.

Who is this "we"? The wikia? Because I definitively have seen people downscaling characters because they can hurt them if the gap isn't a stomp, and I have been here for more posts than you , and you still do far more damage to Undyne in raw numbers than other Waterfall monsters, ignoring HP since that doesn't indicate a characters defense (MTT NEO has the most HP of all monster including PS Flowey lol). But like, whatever, we are moving the goalpost at this point, my initial stament was that you could kill Undyne with the stick, which you conceded and moved to say "it doesn't count because reasons", so at this point agree to disagree, if you believe that Frisk can harm, tank hits and even kill Undyne while being 13 times weaker than her than good for you, I didn't come to this thread to debate your scaling but just comment on that point, which I proved

Also I played through the game, and yeah, you do around 20-30 HP with the stick before she loses green mode, and she deals 5 damage if you have the bandage (which is less than Mettaton's 7 damage later in his fight, so I guess he is stronger than Undyne with this thread's logic)

I don't have to prove a negative.

But. This isn't proving a negative, in this case you need to disprove the positive claim that a character doesn't scale to the other even though they can harm and survive hits from each other, I stand by the confirmation bias comment because your points rely on many assumptions being automatically true to work, or at least more than the other opposition.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Who is this "we"? The wikia? Because I definitively have seen people downscaling characters because they can hurt them if the gap isn't a stomp, and I have been here for more posts than you.

That is irrelevant. People doing something dumb has no bearing on this thread.

and you still do far more damage to Undyne in raw numbers than other Waterfall monsters, ignoring HP since that doesn't indicate a characters defense (MTT NEO has the most HP of all monster including PS Flowey lol).

Relative damage numbers. 29 dmg from a 8000 HP Monster (example) is pathetic, while 20 to 100 HP Monster is 1/5 of its health.

But like, whatever, we are moving the goalpost at this point, my initial stament was that you could kill Undyne with the stick, which you conceded and moved to say "it doesn't count because reasons"

You simply do not scale a character which is clearly weaker by a significant portion than another because he is capable of scratching him.

so at this point agree to disagree, if you believe that Frisk can harm, tank hits and even kill Undyne while being 13 times weaker than her than good for you.

This consistently happens within games.

Also I played through the game, and yeah, you do around 20-30 HP with the stick before she loses green mode, and she deals 5 damage if you have the bandage (which is less than Mettaton's 7 damage later in his fight, so I guess he is stronger than Undyne with this thread's logic)

Which Mettaton?

But. This isn't proving a negative, in this case you need to disprove the positive claim that a character doesn't scale to the other even though they can harm and survive hits from each other.

That is not accepted as a fact, it never was. Harming one character in such an insignificant way fits a gap of +10 times pretty easily. It's a matter of basic logic, it's not something which has visual evidence.

Undyne's full strength is 99.6 Mettatons.
Is Frisk comparable to Undyne in a 1v1? No. Therefore Frisk does not scale to said value.

 

[Theuser789]

Which Mettaton?

All of them.

And since when do you dictate how people scale? You keep speaking your subjective interpretation as if it was a objective fact by itself, which isn't, but you do you

 

[KingPin0422]

For the record, there is a point where the difference in power between two characters is so great that nothing the weaker character can do can do any amount of damage to their opponent whatsoever. Frisk vs Asriel is a good example in Undertale, as Frisk legitimately cannot do anything to hurt Asriel at all, but there are other examples in other verses as well. Point is, when the gap is big enough, there's simply no way to harm your opponent, even minimally.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

For the record, there is a point where the difference in power between two characters is so great that nothing the weaker character can do can do any amount of damage to their opponent whatsoever. Frisk vs Asriel is a good example in Undertale, as Frisk legitimately cannot do anything to hurt Asriel at all, but there are other examples in other verses as well. Point is, when the gap is big enough, there's simply no way to harm your opponent, even minimally.

That changes from verse to verse, though. There are verses where a Solar System Level might scratch a Galaxy Level because the latter was distracted or something, or DBZ where characters over 20x weaker (kaioken multipliers) might hurt a stronger one.

It isn't a general rule, but it is clear that Frisk should not scale to Undyne's full strength by weakening her with her attacks+killing intent (aka exploiting her weakness).

 

[GodlyCharmander]

All of them.

He cuts Frisk's HP in half, so its actually (n/2) dmg. n being current HP.

And since when do you dictate how people scale?

I'm not dictating anything, pardon me. I'm trying to explain why it's not logical nor accurate to scale a character who is far weaker, to one that is far stronger, because the former can wear the latter down through small bits of damage plus an exploitable weakness.

 

[Theuser789]

He cuts Frisk's HP in half, so its actually (n/2) dmg. n being current HP.

I am talking about the actual Mettaton fight in the CORE, he does 7 damage with the bandage on, versus Undyne's 5

I'm trying to explain why it's not logical nor accurate to scale a character who is far weaker, to one that is far stronger, because the former can wear the latter down through small bits of damage plus an exploitable weakness.

The main problem is that this far stronger only exists to fit your scaling (the Frisk gets gradually stronger one) and it doesn't come naturally, which is my problem with that entire logic, I see it as having the game fit it, instead of the contrary, the narrative fitting the game, but at this point it's better to agree to disagree, maybe Reth will keep arguing idk

 

[GodlyCharmander]

The main problem is that this far stronger only exists to fit your scaling.

So... You think Frisk is comparable to Undyne during their fight? I just can't see that at all.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Btw, the point of this thread wasn't to have a debate about the scaling itself, but to upgrade the verse with the new feats. We will vote on the scaling we agree with, then we could probably do another thread focusing entirely on scaling afterwards.

 

[Theuser789]

So... You think Frisk is comparable to Undyne during their fight? I just can't see that at all.

Yeah, I do, when Toby wants to portray a character being massively above another he is usually explicit about it, for me I can't see they being 13 times weaker, hence agree to disagree and all

 

[RethPo]

Im just gonna focus on the response to me for now

Uhhh, no. Frisk does not beat Undyne without equipment, as they do negligible damage to her. Toriel is actively not trying to kill you, and her defense gradually lowers as the fight keeps going, and the same applies to Muffet. No matter how you see it, all these fights at LV 1 are incredibly difficult without any equipment to make it reasonably even, and the Boss Monsters are portrayed as massively stronger than Frisk is.

You fight on par with enemies later with the exact same items so i dont see your point here. Even if frisk needed items to beat undyne (which is headcannon), the game doesnt even expect you to have those items. You get them from hidden rooms and shops and its completely optional. Not to mention again undertales narrative is about the player exploring every possibility. Any argument of "the game expects you to do this" just goes against the entire narrative.

I disagree with your proposal.

The thought of Frisk's Determination fluctuating to extreme degrees throughout every scenario is just absurd to me.

The thought of: Frisk has Wall level DT, they get Small Building level DT by simply watching a waterfall, immediately, it drops to Wall level again by leaving the SAVE point, then it goes back to Small Bulding level DT when a Monsters shows up- It increases again for the next SAVE--

It just seems a far fetched and unsupported assumption, other than being redundant of course. I stand by my scaling.

The idea of someones emotions fluctuating because of the situation makes more sense than someones emotion remaining stagnant and rising over time, occasionally dropping yes.

They dont small building or high wall level from watching the waterfall. Its just a short burst of determination that lets them go back to that point. They only show that power in fights.

Assumption? Where are you getting the idea that its an assumption when its constantly backed up through the entire game and has way less contradictions to it?

Chara is talking to the player.

...So? She still brings up the statistics youve had throughout the game meaning theyre blatantly cannon sooo...

False. You just claimed they would get hurt, and never elaborated. A 7 Megajoule Durability Character wouldn't even feel a 48 Kilojoule fall, yet, Chara got injured by it.

In no moment you proved Frisk was at their weakest in the Oven feat, because that's not quantifiable, hence, your scaling depends on a very generous assumption.

I straight up explained the fact that its the rapid deceleration and sudden stop that kills you and not just the energy. Literally just look up "how does a fall kill you" or does the sudden stop of one kill you, and youll find out. Not to mention undertale (and fiction generally) has a lot of ridiculously powerful character getting hurt by falls pis, even undertale with undynes case.

I mean im fine with it being unquantifiable, but if it is then it means who scales to it is unknown.
Maybe its possible there could actually be "frisks determination could either be minimal or could be comparable to slightly higher tier monsters" and there could be a high and low end calc for the human souls... Thats if how much determination he had or what power he gained from it is unknown.

 

[RethPo]

Should mention too nothing really suggests monsters being leagues apart and there is a case of frisk fighting snowdin monsters evenly yet harming core level def jerry gradually (although jerry was off guard so his weakness is prolly exposed) and it is kinda weird for frisk who has more physical matter canonically making him stronger to be hundreds of times weaker than mid tier monsters but idk

 

[GodlyCharmander]

You fight on par with enemies later with the exact same items so i dont see your point here. Even if frisk needed items to beat undyne (which is headcannon), the game doesnt even expect you to have those items. You get them from hidden rooms and shops and its completely optional. Not to mention again undertales narrative is about the player exploring every possibility. Any argument of "the game expects you to do this" just goes against the entire narrative.

You're right about the "game expecting" argument, though.
Point is, Frisk never fought equally with Undyne, they're clearly weaker.

The idea of someones emotions fluctuating because of the situation makes more sense than someones emotion remaining stagnant and rising over time, occasionally dropping yes.

They dont small building or high wall level from watching the waterfall. Its just a short burst of determination that lets them go back to that point. They only show that power in fights.

No? Each SAVE point increases Frisk's Determination further, they can gain Determination out of trivial things such as seeing a cute house, for example. My point is, DT is obviously something that increases Frisk's power, but it's not fair to say they have X or Y amounts based off if they are in battle or not. It's unquantifiable.

Assumption? Where are you getting the idea that its an assumption when its constantly backed up through the entire game and has way less contradictions to it?

It's not "backed up", a direct back up would be definitive evidence, you provided supporting evidence, yes, but it's still not something definitive.

Frisk growing in DT through the game is also severely "backed up" (using your version of the term, of course) by the fact they consistently fight stronger Monsters. It comes down to interpretation.

...So? She still brings up the statistics youve had throughout the game meaning theyre blatantly cannon sooo...

Chara, much like any other DT user, has 4th Wall Awareness. I know stats are canon, but this is not one of the evidences for it. Also, your point was "Frisk unchanged stats being aknowledged", why are you bringing up Genocide?

I straight up explained the fact that its the rapid deceleration and sudden stop that kills you and not just the energy.

That is kinetic energy, and pressure. You still won't feel a thing if you're over a thousand times stronger, though. Your explanation has no actual math behind it, so I have zero reason to just accept it.

Literally just look up "how does a fall kill you" or does the sudden stop of one kill you, and youll find out. Not to mention undertale (and fiction generally) has a lot of ridiculously powerful character getting hurt by falls pis, even undertale with undynes case.

With Undyne? Sure, PIS. It's an optional scene, with a character who scales way higher than that. But with Chara? It's literally the big plot twist of the entire game, the ending story! They got injured by their fall through sheer narrative.

I mean im fine with it being unquantifiable, but if it is then it means who scales to it is unknown.

Obviously it can't be any higher than the point they are in the game, which is the Waterfall. But it can't be at their weakest because they already had experiences that altered their DT, either throughout emotional experiences, or trivial things such as standing the cold of snowdin. It's fair to say Waterfall Monsters scale to that feat because that's the point where they are.

Maybe its possible there could actually be "frisks determination could either be minimal or could be comparable to slightly higher tier monsters" and there could be a high and low end calc for the human souls... Thats if how much determination he had or what power he gained from it is unknown.

"Either minimal or X" doesn't work, again, DT bursts can be from trivial things, so assuming they're back to their Ruins self is just absurd.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Yeah, I do, when Toby wants to portray a character being massively above another he is usually explicit about it, for me I can't see they being 13 times weaker, hence agree to disagree and all

You make it sound as if that's a common thing...?

 

[Theuser789]

You make it sound as if that's a common thing...?

I don't know what you are implying here, Toby explicitly portraying characters blantantly superior is a common thing

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[Comiphorous]

bump

 

[Deleted member 16409]

LET'S UPDATE UNDERTALE TO 0, LET'S GO
(joke)

 

[Comiphorous]

LET'S UPDATE UNDERTALE TO 0, LET'S GO
(joke)

YEAAAH BABY THATS I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT

WOOOOOOO

 

[Deleted member 16409]

YEAAAH BABY THATS I'VE BEEN WAITING FOR THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT

WOOOOOOO

HIGH 1-A UNDYNE BASE, 0 UNDYNE UNDYING.
0 ASRIEL
10-C sans
1-A FROGGIT
HIGH 1-A PAPYRUS
0 FLOWEY

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So, we have two suggestions so far.
Mine, which puts Flowey at 8-A by scaling each Monster to its respective location, and not allowing Waterfall Frisk to scale to an earlier version of themself. (Which we will call scaling A)

And Reth, which puts Flowey at High 8-C by assuming the Monsters we fight to be far above the general population, and backscaling Waterfall Frisk to an earlier version of themself. (Which we will call scaling B)

Both arguments can be seen above, in the thread. Psycho agreed with Scaling A.

Scaling A: @Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @chosen, @Originlima

Scaling B: @RethPo, @Theuser789

Another Method:

I'd like for one of the Top Tiers scalings to reach 7 votes, then we can probably apply the scaling. This is only a tangent for Omega Flowey, as Frisk and the rest will still scale to their respective feats.

 

[Comiphorous]

I'd like for one of the Top Tiers scalings to reach 7 votes, then we can probably apply the scaling. This is only a tangent for Omega Flowey, as Frisk and the rest will still scale to their respective feats.

Aight, then i'll vote for scaling A

 

[Deleted member 16409]

let's make Annoying Dog page again, but not Low 2-C, just stream intro version

 

[Comiphorous]

let's make Annoying Dog page again, but not Low 2-C, just stream intro version

Outside of the game, beyond fiction, tier 0

:troll:

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Outside of the game, beyond fiction, tier 0

:troll:

Funny, but in the stream and interview Toby Fox confirmed that dog is Toby Fox, and he created Undertale&Deltarune and easily making the code
:troll:

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So, we have two suggestions so far.
Mine, which puts Flowey at 8-A by scaling each Monster to its respective location, and not allowing Waterfall Frisk to scale to an earlier version of themself. (Which we will call scaling A)

And Reth, which puts Flowey at High 8-C by assuming the Monsters we fight to be far above the general population, and backscaling Waterfall Frisk to an earlier version of themself. (Which we will call scaling B)

Both arguments can be seen above, in the thread. Psycho agreed with Scaling A.

Scaling A: @Psychomaster35, @GodlyCharmander, @chosen, @Originlima, @FarerPurple

Scaling B: @RethPo, @Theuser789

Another Method:

Actually, 7 people would require us to call in more people, explain what's going on, and then ask them to vote. I can see Imaginym joining in, but most Staff I called didn't seem to care.

Since pretty much everyone directly involved with the thread voted, can we make a decision for now? (A thread can be made later to change the scaling, if you still disagree with it)

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Actually, 7 people would require us to call in more people, explain what's going on, and then ask them to vote. I can see Imaginym joining in, but most Staff I called didn't seem to care.

Since pretty much everyone directly involved with the thread voted, can we make a decision for now? (A thread can be made later to change the scaling, if you still disagree with it)

k

 

[RethPo]

You're right about the "game expecting" argument, though.
Point is, Frisk never fought equally with Undyne, they're clearly weaker.

-Can blatantly hurt and take hits from undyne with without any equipment or lv and ultimately kills or escapes from them, the arguably most bloodlusted opponent who is determined to kill you. Does the exact same thing with muffet.
-Clearly weaker than both
Sigh

No? Each SAVE point increases Frisk's Determination further, they can gain Determination out of trivial things such as seeing a cute house, for example. My point is, DT is obviously something that increases Frisk's power, but it's not fair to say they have X or Y amounts based off if they are in battle or not. It's unquantifiable.

I mean i guess, but we only see the amounts of power they truly have when they are in battle. The amount they have at save points in that moment is unquantifiable since its never really shown.

Also theres one little issue with your "saves increase frisks power" thing. And thats the fact that you can go through the entire game without saving once and the game will straight up acknowledge it. Sooo saves points being what gives frisk his power when he can do the exact same thing without it is sorta out the window.

It's not "backed up", a direct back up would be definitive evidence, you provided supporting evidence, yes, but it's still not something definitive.

Frisk growing in DT through the game is also severely "backed up" (using your version of the term, of course) by the fact they consistently fight stronger Monsters. It comes down to interpretation.

Ive fully gone over how frisks just adapting to monsters when he fights them makes more sense from fighting monsters at varying levels and is blatantly proveable while youve been using complete headcannon like "clearly weaker than a character he fights evenly against in all scenarios" and being a specific level at save points, or just "nah it dont make sense", what are you even talking about? How the hell is any of the comparisons i brought up supporting evidence?

Chara, much like any other DT user, has 4th Wall Awareness. I know stats are canon, but this is not one of the evidences for it. Also, your point was "Frisk unchanged stats being aknowledged", why are you bringing up Genocide?

Ill rephrase. Frisks stats and their mechanics are cannon (and brought up in genocide) and are acknowledged. His stats never change throughout the story, which means his stats do not have a permanent change through the story.

That is kinetic energy, and pressure. You still won't feel a thing if you're over a thousand times stronger, though. Your explanation has no actual math behind it, so I have zero reason to just accept it. With Undyne? Sure, PIS. It's an optional scene, with a character who scales way higher than that. But with Chara? It's literally the big plot twist of the entire game, the ending story! They got injured by their fall through sheer narrative.

If you want math the fall is actually 164 times weaker than the oven feat lol. Bout the gap between a high end street level and a normal human (even a chimpanzee is gonna feel something even if simply dizzy like chara, from having the full force of a human hit them directly on their head and exerted onto their spine. Theyre sure as hell not gonna react like its some kind of feather)

And yeah pressure. All that pressure is getting exerted onto charas head and likely her spine. Her insides arent going to magically be super durable or immune to that kind of shift in momentum. Along with the fact chara had no actual visible injuries and was even able to walk and just felt light headed, its barely even an anti feat assuming it isnt pis (like most falls in fiction are)
The fall itself isnt even the plot twist, it just happens in the scene... even if chara was unphased the story would have still played out the same with asriel finding them.

Obviously it can't be any higher than the point they are in the game, which is the Waterfall. But it can't be at their weakest because they already had experiences that altered their DT, either throughout emotional experiences, or trivial things such as standing the cold of snowdin. It's fair to say Waterfall Monsters scale to that feat because that's the point where they are.

"Either minimal or X" doesn't work, again, DT bursts can be from trivial things, so assuming they're back to their Ruins self is just absurd.

Again, none of this proves how much they get from these determination bursts at save points (especially when save points have no effect on how he fights enemies) or keeps that determination and strength permanantely when his strength blatantly drops. If i find myself getting angry at certain things through a journey, that doesnt mean im suddenly going to become permanentaly pissed off and never lose that emotion.

So no, him being either at his weakest in a situation where frisk has no reason to be determined, or any given higher level depending on who hes fighting or how much frisk has isnt nonsense. Youre just repeating the same things at this point.

 

[RethPo]

Current scaling chain on the profiles where frisks power varies and he fights on the level of whoever hes engaged with, being at his weakest in a situation where hes not determined:
-Frisk beating undyne, toriel, mad mew mew (switch version), muffet and others at lv 1 and going on to fight evenly with far weaker monsters makes sense since his power varies between different levels.
-Frisks stats focus on how dangerous frisk is to monsters based on lv, boosts gained through items or his general strength and make sense all around. His strength doesnt grow through the story so it makes sense for them to be unaffected (till you factor in actual fight scenarios where you cant really check them if im not mistaken).
-Frisks strength varies with his determination. Save points are just temporary bursts of determination that allow him to go back. Being less determined will make frisk weaker, being more so will make him stronger.

Scaling charmanders proposing where frisk gets more powerful throughout the story with determination and keeps said power:
-Frisk beating undyne, toriel, muffet etc and being hurt later by far weaker monsters is either somehow all an outlier, or he just drops his determination and strength later (which disproves him keeping permanentaly keeping his strength from determination to begin with). Either that or hotlands monsters somehow backscale to undyne.
-Frisks strength increase throughout the story just means nothing towards his attack and defence despite them being cannon and only lv and item boosts do while other physical strength just doesnt matter.
-Frisks power that he gains from determination is (mostly?) permanent and his determination almost never drops as a result of any event that makes him so until he reloads. His emotion just never changes...

These are the two scaling chains in more detail btw, top one is b and bottom one is a

 

[RethPo]

(Oh and sorry for calling frisk he all the time btw. Frisks a boi in my headcannon >_<... just the name sound more boyish)