Undertale: The Genocide Route CRT

[TheKingStrategist13]

In the Genocide Route dialogue, Mettaton states that these fuctions were never fully removed. This already means that these functions were mostly removed from him. This already means that the version of Mettaton NEO we see is definitely not anywhere near it's full capacity, and far from being at the same level as it would be if all the functions were still in it.​

The most Minute of Nitpick's, but, it'd be more accurate to say they were partially removed, as him saying they were not fully removed only means that the process wasn't fully followed through. That could mean she only took out a small portion of these capabilities, or that she could have removed a notable amount, or it could mean mostly, but beyond making a assumption based off a slight implication, we wouldn't really know to what degree these capabilities were removed. Anyways, uh, carry on, I'll go grab the popcorn-

 

[Psychomaster35]

Actually @ShionAH, I think that Sans can get back the "8-C+, possibly 7-C through Telekinesis" as it physically overpowered Chara and dealt physical damage to them, meaning you can make an argument for it being superior to Undyne and Asgore's physical power, thus even their Class 25 LS from MTT.

Wouldn’t that just mean anyone with 2 ATK and higher (Which is pretty much every Ruins and Snowdin monster) gets to 8-C as well since Sans has 1 ATK?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

Something being "not impossible" is not ground for a "possibly" key on any profile.​

---

Attack Potency Page on the term "Possibly"​

Possibly​

"Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly."

Here is the official standard on the termology. It needs to be notably possible, not just "technically possible" or "not impossible"

This should put an objectivity on this debate and end it.
Alphys just knows humans are powerful. We have no basis, which are necessary, to suggest she can create a robot that's sufficiently strong.​

Welp, there's some supporting evidence, like Geno Frisk being stated to be capable of eradicating humanity


We know Undyne is at least aware of the Waterfall Glyphs btw

Geno Frisk is capable of potentially tapping into a human's full power due to being a human themselves. Plus, it's pretty much their guesses or judgement of Geno Frisks.

Wouldn’t that just mean anyone with 2 ATK and higher (Which is pretty much every Ruins and Snowdin monster) gets to 8-C as well since Sans has 1 ATK?

"At most" means downscaling, not a rating that is given as a likely/possible situation that's not fully confirmed.

Possibly works just fine.

You should all read above.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Wouldn’t that just mean anyone with 2 ATK and higher gets to 8-C as well since Sans has 1 ATK?

Nah, it would be only from the TK, as it's the only attack that can harm Chara without KR. Chara got quite the upscaling from 8-C monsters after all.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Geno Frisk is capable of potentially tapping into a human's full power due to being a human themselves. Plus, it's pretty much their guesses or judgement of Geno Frisks.

Confidence scaling is a thing, both Undyne and Mettaton thought they could beat said Frisk

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

The most Minute of Nitpick's, but, it'd be more accurate to say they were partially removed, as him saying they were not fully removed only means that the process wasn't fully followed through. That could mean she only took out a small portion of these capabilities, or that she could have removed a notable amount, or it could mean mostly, but beyond making a assumption based off a slight implication, we wouldn't really know to what degree these capabilities were removed.

I supposed that's true. I guessed the term "fully" implied they were almost fully removed, but never finished.

Well anyway,
I guess I will skedadle.
If OP insists on the argument, I will just call in moderation to evaluate both arguments and give a veridict.​

Confidence scaling is a thing, both Undyne and Mettaton thought they could beat said Frisk

Mettaton was just wrong. Undyne could beat a Frisk which was weaker than their peak. Unless you want to argue Geno Frisk was at the peak of their determation when fighting Undyne because (???) even though Peak Determination Frisk can survive Asriel, I don't buy that!

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Mettaton was just wrong. Undyne could beat a Frisk which was weaker than their peak. Unless you want to argue Geno Frisk was at the peak of their determation when fighting Undyne because (???) even though Peak Determination Frisk can survive Asriel, I don't buy that!

I mean, I'm pretty sure Undyne doesn't know that humans gets stronger with LV/DT, she was most likely going with what she has seen Frisk accomplish

 

[StrymULTRA]

OP, this is a very HUGE leap in logic.
A form is just the physical appearance of one's self.
Just because he has the same physical form, does not mean he can fight at a capability that only existed before Alphys removed them.

This is legit a very big nitpick, as in general "form" in fiction just means a whole ass power up with boosts and all. MTT obviosuly meant his true power with that one line.

That is just not true, it could be far higher before, we don't know how strong this original version would be.
The argument being, "It's so high, it's gotta be as strong as the original" is just a logical fallacy.
Yet another leap in logic.
There is no connection at all. Just because the ATK is high, doesn't mean it's equal to a version we never saw, which could be indefinitely higher.

Alphys also did not install anything back. As Mettaton says, these were the original function that were removed far before
the player showed up.
She just never removed it completely, which is why he can tap into a part of it.

Geno NEO does not scale to H.Eradication MTT.

The yours is as much as an assumption as much as mine. Nothing says to what degree those were removed, and nothing says that he got weakened too.

The problem is you never proved it's possible in the first place.

Yes, she supposedly knows about the power of a human.
Can you prove it's even remotely possible to make such a weapon with their technology?
Can you prove Alphys has the potential capacity of building such robot?

Knowing how strong a target is not the same as having the skill, resources or technology to stop it.

If you can't prove that, even the possibly key is a stretch, and I disagree with it.

This is just you being nitpicky again. Nothing says as well that she hadn't as well. You're just overthinking about this when the evidence is rather simple.

She doesn't have any experience with the human souls when she made Mettaton.
You missed the entire point of the argument.
Of course, she may have had the basic notion due to the glphys, but
she had no specialized lab where she could measure how much energy a monster soul generates
much less a human soul.

One also cannot prove Alphys read the glphys at the time too.

Everyone can read the glyphs tf? She's literally a royal scientist which worked to know why the humans were this strong in the first place. Her missing that doesn't make much sense.

Possibly​

"Should be used to list a statistic for a character with some basis, but inconclusive due to the justification being vague or non-definitive. The probability of the justification in question for being reliable should be notable, but mild. This term should be used sparingly."

Here is the official standard on the termology. It needs to be notably possible, not just "technically possible" or "not impossible"

This should put an objectivity on this debate and end it.
Alphys just knows humans are powerful. We have no basis, which are necessary, to suggest she can create a robot that's sufficiently strong.​

It is indeed notable enough, given who is Alphys here though. You're kinda missing my entire point buddy.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

The yours is as much as an assumption as much as mine. Nothing says to what degree those were removed, and nothing says that he got weakened too.

This is just you being nitpicky again. Nothing says as well that she hadn't as well. You're just overthinking about this when the evidence is rather simple.

I mean, you're not supposed to prove a negative

 

[StrymULTRA]

I mean, you're not supposed to prove a negative

It's actually with a kinda solid-ish basis given Alphys' whole character to be fair.

Though I should call more staff.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Nah, it would be only from the TK, as it's the only attack that can harm Chara without KR. Chara got quite the upscaling from 8-C monsters after all.

As we know from Papyrus, blue attacks from the skeleton brothers are gravity manipulation as well, thus saying Sans was "overpowering" them from sheer telekinetic force seems wrong.

Pretty sure the telekinetic volley at the end was also only by one HP point per impact, which seems more of a commentary on his attack value than anything else (and even then, if Chara is already at 1HP, the attack won't change their HP at all).

 

[StrymULTRA]

As we know from Papyrus, blue attacks from the skeleton brothers are gravity manipulation as well, thus saying Sans was "overpowering" them from sheer telekinetic force seems wrong.

Pretty sure the telekinetic volley at the end was also only by one HP point per impact, which seems more of a commentary on his attack value than anything else (and even then, if Chara is already at 1HP, the attack won't change their HP at all).

Fair enough. Should Sans at least be "At least Class 10, possibly 25" due to him still damaging them with TK similarly like Undyne does though?

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I mean, I'm pretty sure Undyne doesn't know that humans gets stronger with LV/DT, she was most likely going with what she has seen Frisk accomplish

Killing low tier monsters is what we have been doing this far.

This is legit a bery big nitpick, as in general "form" in fiction just means---

Fiction is not a standardlized universal dictionary.
Form means shape or appearance. It doesn't mean power.
That's the end of the argument. You can't just whataboutism using other fictional media using the word in a different way
and say "it applies to all fiction in existence because I want to".

Not how it works. True form is not a valid point.​

The yours is as much as an assumption as much as mine. Nothing says to what degree those were removed, and nothing says that he got weakened too.

If his capabilities are not at their peak, you can't scale the two.
The negative is assumed to be true by default. There is not argument to be made unless you prove NEO is equal to H.E MTT.
And if you're admiting that your point is merely an assumption, we can move on because that's basically conceding.​

This is just you being nitpicky again. Nothing says as well that she hadn't as well. You're just overthinking about this when the evidence is rather simple.

OP,
I want you to please pay attention to what I have to say.
Calling my rebuttals "nitpicky" is not a valid way to responding to my reasoning.
"This is nitpick, so it's invalid" is the most basic form of Non-Sequitur
It's not important if the evidence is simple or complex.
You still need to prove your claims in either case. You haven't.
It's that simple. If you can't prove Alphys can do it even in possibility, then that
already means she can't.
Please read about Burden of proof fallacy
​

Everyone can read the glyphs tf?

"They can, therefore they have" is an association fallacy.

She's literally a royal scientist which worked to know why the humans were this strong in the first place. Her missing that doesn't make much sense.

She wasn't a royal scientist before.
It has been proved that she made Mettaton before becoming a Royal Scientist. Argumentum ad nauseum

It is indeed notable enough, given who is Alphys here though.

It's not notable at all.
"Alphys is smart and knows about X, therefore she can build something strong enough to destroy X"
This is again fallacy.

What is the evidence and basis that Alphys can make a robot.
"She is smart" isn't evidence of skill on a particular form of engineering, nor is it a basis to suggest she can do things she hasn't shown to do.
"She knows how strong it needs to be"
isn't evidence of skill on a particular form of engineering, nor is it a basis to suggest she can do things she hasn't shown to do.

It has no basis, saying its notable just because Alphys is smart is again, NLF

It's actually with a kinda solid-ish basis given Alphys' whole character to be fair.

Your basis for solice is,
"She has knowledge on it", which is a false analogy.



You managed to include a fallacy on each and every reply. I don't think this is a honest debate...​

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Killing low tier monsters is what we have been doing this far.

They also one-shotted Undyne and the latter has knowledge on how strong a FP Human is, so I don't think it's that far-fetched,
Also another thing that could support Alphys having knowledge on humans, is that she was part of the human fan-club

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

They also one-shotted Undyne and the latter has knowledge on how strong a FP Human is, so I don't think it's that far-fetched

So please do make a thread to scale Undyne the Undying to Asriel.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So please do make a thread to scale Undyne the Undying to Asriel.

I was more saying that Undyne has knowledge on the glyphs that put humans at 7-C

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

I was more saying that Undyne has knowledge on the glyphs that put humans at 7-C

I never doubted that, I was just arguing against confidence scaling. Monsters can't fight Frisk at peak determination because they have 2-C durability in that form.

 

[StrymULTRA]

Fiction is not a standardlized universal dictionary.
Form means shape or appearance. It doesn't mean power.
That's the end of the argument. You can't just whataboutism using other fictional media using the word in a different way
and say "it applies to all fiction in existence because I want to".

Not how it works. True form is not a valid point.

It kinda is, because we use fiction to decide in general things which are legit. For example FTL is generally not applicable for AP in fiction because how consistently is potrayed, same with Infinite power statements being hyperbole most of the time due to the contexts being similar.

If his capabilities are not at their peak, you can't scale the two.
The negative is assumed to be true by default. There is not argument to be made unless you prove NEO is equal to H.E MTT.
And if you're admiting that your point is merely an assumption, we can move on because that's basically conceding.

And yours is an assumption as much as mine is what I said. You cannot exactly prove he got so weakened that he's incomparable to his "prime", he said it clearly.

OP,
I want you to please pay attention to what I have to say.
Calling my rebuttals "nitpicky" is not a valid way to responding to my reasoning.
"This is nitpick, so it's invalid" is the most basic form of Non-Sequitur
It's not important if the evidence is simple or complex.
You still need to prove your claims in either case. You haven't.
It's that simple. If you can't prove Alphys can do it even in possibility, then that
already means she can't.
Please read about Burden of proof fallacy

I know this kind of attitude, and it never flies. You listing fallacies does not make your point any valid, I already listed the reasons why Alphys can indeed make a 7-C robot, based on her knownledge.

"They can, therefore they have" is an association fallacy.

You have to prove the positive that she never did. This is the thing, if someone like Undyne does, why wouldn't the Royal Scientist herself?

It has been proved that she made Mettaton before becoming a Royal Scientist. Argumentum ad nauseum

Yeah but MTT was still confident in beating Chara lol.

It's not notable at all.
"Alphys is smart and knows about X, therefore she can build something strong enough to destroy X"
This is again fallacy.

It's literally the whole ******* point. Why wouldn't she be able to? You're talking like she can't no matter what.

What is the evidence and basis that Alphys can make a robot.
"She is smart" isn't evidence of skill on a particular form of engineering, nor is it a basis to suggest she can do things she hasn't shown to do.
"She knows how strong it needs to be"
isn't evidence of skill on a particular form of engineering, nor is it a basis to suggest she can do things she hasn't shown to do.

It has no basis, saying its notable just because Alphys is smart is again, NLF

You do realize that this is fiction, thus it can indeed be possible them pulling stuff out of their ass correct? Now it's not the most correct way to say it, but we got already enough basis, which are vague enough, and you just said why they are vague, but not why are they objectively invalid.

 

[CosmicWreck]

I never doubted that, I was just arguing against confidence scaling. Monsters can't fight Frisk at peak determination because they have 2-C durability in that form.

That's assuming Genocide feats correlate with pacifist's, when there's no evidence they do. The Player character has only ever displayed that level of the durability at the Absolute.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I never doubted that, I was just arguing against confidence scaling. Monsters can't fight Frisk at peak determination because they have 2-C durability in that form.

Confidence scaling usually only goes with what Character A knows about Character B,
To list an example, Armored Boros is listed as "possibly High 6-A" for being confident in fighting Saitama even after he had seen him destroy High 6-A Structures despite the fact Saitama is actually 4-A

Triple Trouble

 

[CosmicWreck]

Fair enough. Should Sans at least be "At least Class 10, possibly 25" due to him still damaging them with TK similarly like Undyne does though?

No. You can't upgrade lifting strength by harming someone. They must either be superior in stature , more overpowering or able to physically contend with others.

It would be better to upgrade the Boss Monsters for being the de facto strongest characters in the Underground and Base Undyne would scale for being able to knock Asgore down during training.

Sans has gravity manipulation which makes it easier for him to throw Chara around like a rag doll so he doesn't scale, I don't think.

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

It kinda is, because we use fiction to decide in general things which are legit. For example FTL is generally not applicable for AP in fiction because how consistently is potrayed, same with Infinite power statements being hyperbole most of the time due to the contexts being similar.

Nope, you're comparing apples and oranges. Termonology does not fall under that criteria. Again the burden of proof falls on you.

And yours is an assumption as much as mine is what I said.

I can prove that his capabilities are partly removed.
That makes them different by definition.
You need to prove they're comparable,
otherwise they are not. Again, this is just you refusing the satisfy your burden of proof.​

I know this kind of attitude, and it never flies. You listing fallacies does not make your point any valid, I already listed the reasons why Alphys can indeed make a 7-C robot, based on her knownledge.

It makes your reasoning invalid, though. I am not making a point, I am asking you to prove yours.

Again, associating knowledge to capability and resources is a fallacy, it's not a basis.​

You have to prove the positive that she never did.

The positive "never",

the

POSITIVE

"never"


"Not doing" something is a negative. Why do you do this?
Why do you REFUSE to satisfy your burden of proof?
Why do you insist on using the inverse of burden fallacy on others?

What part of "the negative is true unless proven otherwise" do you not understand? Can you prove Alphys read them?
Yes or no?
If the answer is no, then we have nothing to discuss.​

Yeah but MTT was still confident in beating Chara lol.

Unimportant, and he was wrong, and weaker than Undyne who couldn't beat a weaker Chara.​

It's literally the whole ******* point. Why wouldn't she be able to? You're talking like she can't no matter what.

You do realize that this is fiction, thus it can indeed be possible them pulling stuff out of their ass correct? Now it's not the most correct way to say it, but we got already enough basis, which are vague enough, and you just said why they are vague, but not why are they objectively invalid.

If you're getting aggressive over videogames, I am not debating you, dude.

Go get some water.

I refuse to explain the basics of debating to you again,
sincerely.

If you cannot prove something is true, then it is false.
Alphys can't be assumed to be able to make something she never did.
The answer to your angry "why couldn't she do it?"
is again, a simple "because you can't prove she can"

It's such an Ad Nauseum.
I'm tired.
OP, please rest, you seem angry.
If you don't abide by burden of proof, then just drop the argument, or go do something fun.

I refuse to engage on this angry manifestation any longer, it makes me uncomfortable.
Have a nice day.​

 

[The_Yellow_Topaz]

That's assuming Genocide feats correlate with pacifist's, when there's no evidence they do. The Player character has only ever displayed that level of the durability at the Absolute.

It's the same character through both timelines. The player is completely seperate from the game universe, saying it's different when they have the same conditions on both ends is the assumption here.

 

[CosmicWreck]

It's the same character through both timelines. The player is completely seperate from the game universe, saying it's different when they have the same conditions on both ends is the assumption here.

Frisk identified as Chara near the beginning of the genocide route, they aren't the same character and there's no evidence to say their determination levels were as high or higher than when Frisk was fighting the universe destroying Asriel Dreamur.

Contextually, your argument really doesn't have a leg to stand on.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

The game makes it explicitly clear that Frisk AND Chara are working as partners on the Genocide route, it isn't one or the other.

I don't think scaling Mettaton and Undyne to Human Souls works either, wouldn't they scale to humans physically rather than the power of their souls?

The rest seems fine tho

 

[StrymULTRA]

You know, this is just getting circular and I am getting myself tired, because you've just said the same thing as before.

We'll just going to wait staff votes, because I am getting a bit tired of this.

Sans has gravity manipulation which makes it easier for him to throw Chara around like a rag doll so he doesn't scale, I don't think.

Actually, given that Undyne finds Papyrus "pretty freaking tough", shouldn't Papyrus downscale to some degree from her? After all lifting is one of the things she values the most.

The game makes it explicitly clear that Frisk AND Chara are working as partners on the Genocide route, it isn't one or the other.

The player and Chara are partners, not Frisk. The entire thing of "Chara was talking to Frisk" has been debunked like 30 times and I feel like making a discussion rule about this.

I don't think scaling Mettaton and Undyne to Human Souls works either, wouldn't they scale to humans physically rather than the power of their souls?

But the SOUL power literally scales to physicals lol.

 

[CosmicWreck]

The game makes it explicitly clear that Frisk AND Chara are working as partners on the Genocide route, it isn't one or the other.

We have never seen from Frisk's first person perspective. Chara was not talking to Frisk, but the Player.

I don't think scaling Mettaton and Undyne to Human Souls works either, wouldn't they scale to humans physically rather than the power of their souls?

Topaz makes a compelling argument to this point.

 

[CosmicWreck]

Actually, given that Undyne finds Papyrus "pretty freaking tough", shouldn't Papyrus downscale to some degree from her? After all lifting is one of the things she values the most.

I'm fine with this.

 

[StrymULTRA]

We have never seen from Frisk's first person perspective. Chara was not talking to Frisk, but the Player.

Pretty much this. Instead of "you" the game uses Chara in 1st person, and Flowey recognizes them as Chara since the start, implying very heavily that from a high enough killing count, Chara takes control. After all it's a deal between Chara and the Player, with both getting power from the killings, and Chara gives up control if the Player does not collaborate anymore for the Genocide.

 

[ShockingPsychic]

As someone firmly in the camp of "the player isnt nearly as involved as most give them credit for", I wholeheartedly believe Chara was talking to Frisk. I've seen "Chara is talking to the player" debunked many times as well.

They mention "your human soul", which the Player doesn't have, but Frisk does. I could go on but this doesn't seem like the place for it (I could go to the general discussion maybe?)

We have never seen from Frisk's first person perspective.

Literally every single battle in the game is Frisk first person POV

To get back on topic though, Papyrus' LS thing seems fine

 

[StrymULTRA]

As someone firmly in the camp of "the player isnt nearly as involved as most give them credit for", I wholeheartedly believe Chara was talking to Frisk. I've seen "Chara is talking to the player" debunked many times as well.

The accepted Player profile says otherwise, same with Chara's current profile. If you want to get rid of this make a separate CRT, thank you.

They mention "your human soul", which the Player doesn't have, but Frisk does. I could go on but this doesn't seem like the place for it (I could go to the general discussion maybe?)

Frisk still has their SOUL in soulless runs. Meaning that Chara took it from someone else.

Literally every single battle in the game is Frisk first person POV

Wow didn't know that Frisk refers themselves as Chara and recognizes Asgore's old sweater.

 

[CosmicWreck]

As someone firmly in the camp of "the player isnt nearly as involved as most give them credit for", I wholeheartedly believe Chara was talking to Frisk. I've seen "Chara is talking to the player" debunked many times as well.

Happy to hear that. You still have to make an argument as to why you think this is the case though. Makes no sense to rely on others to argue for you.

They mention "your human soul", which the Player doesn't have,

Deltarune, a direct sequel, disagrees and Nintendo Switch, a canon update disagrees.

but Frisk does. I could go on but this doesn't seem like the place for it (I could go to the general discussion maybe?)

If you want. Just tag me.

Literally every single battle in the game is Frisk first person POV

They are usually represented by a sprite or, during battles, a SOUL, neither of which show up in the ending of the genocide route, so false equivalence.

Meanwhile, a similar thing happened when Flowey was talking to the Player at the end of the Pacifist route.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Now, let's say hypothetically, Toby reveals that the Chara's SOUL absorbed Asriel had 250 ATK and DEF, and makes a Spamton Sweepstakes style event, where it's revealled that Mettaton's Box Form was also built as a Human Eradication Robot and "the perfect defense against humans"
Would that give Box Mettaton the "possibly 7-C" thing? Or is his invulnerability enough for him to be considered as such?
It also gets revealled that Box Mettaton was made after the DT experiments btw

 

[StrymULTRA]

Now, let's say hypothetically, Toby reveals that the Chara's SOUL absorbed Asriel had 250 ATK and DEF, and makes a Spamton Sweepstakes style event, where it's revealled that Mettaton's Box Form was also built as a Human Eradication Robot and "the perfect defense against humans"
Would that give Box Mettaton the "possibly 7-C" thing? Or is his invulnerability enough for him to be considered as such?
It also gets revealled that Box Mettaton was made after the DT experiments btw

Tbh him being literally invulerable seems more an hyperbole to describe how big his defense is, due to Frisk being completely unable to harm him.

Plus... it seems more too much in hypteticals here.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Pretty sure he's called invulnerable even by a Post-DT experiments Alphys tho
We use similar logic with Illumination Mario to scale his durability above the Bomber Bill's explosion

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Hmmmm...
Gotta say....
I DISAGREE =)

​

..... I mean, in some places.​

TIME TO GET [$@%#]

⬤ WHAT I AGREE​

"Frisk gets a minor clean up in their speed."
I mean, sure! If it's just some clean ups, it's fine.

"Class 25 becomes Class 10"
Absolutely, that's just basic math, isn't it? No problems here.
​

---

⬤ WHAT I DISAGREE​

• DISCLAIMER: See, here is where things get a little toasty. I will share my opinion, but I will say ahead that I am not an advocate fighter against these upgrades. Please don't be needlessly prickly when addressing my points. [RESPECT]​
• Please read the entirety of the argument before replying, thank you.​

.......................Isn't that what you're normally supposed to do?​

---

"Undyne the Undying, Mettaton NEO and Chara in their new key get a 'possibly 7-C'"
So, the reason why I disagree with this is very simple. I will list them bellow, I hope I can get you to understand.​

• I believe you got the order of events confused. While it is true that Alphys stated that she just recently made Mettaton have anti-human combat features, we know that this was a big fat lie to convince the protagonist that she was a hero to their story.​

Let me make myself clear, I am not claiming that Mettaton was not a human eradication robot. I do believe he was.
This is an argument about the timeline of the events. Please pay attention.​

• While she did not lie about making Mettaton a human eradication robot, she did lie about making it just recently. In the Genocide Route dialogue, Mettaton actually revealed to us that he was originally made as a Human Eradication Robot! This, alongside the fact that we know Alphys made stuff up to make a narrative, proves she lied about the timeline of events.​

Now, listen.
If you don't know anything about the wonderous world of UNDERTALE,
OR, if you forgot about the story,
you might say
"Sure, she may have made Mettaton originally as a human eradication robot, but why does that matter? OP's still right"

I will now explain why making Mettaton originally as a Human Eradication is a problem to OP's claim!
​

• In the Neutral or Pacifist Routes, if you go to the alleyway to the right of the MTT Hotel, you will find the characters Catty and Bratty, who are former friends of Alphys, and there, they will reveal the story of how she became the Royal Scientist!​
  • It turns out, Alphys made Mettaton to impress Asgore! ("Oh no, she made Mettaton because--", both can be true, combining the useful with the enjoyable). She was THEN named the Royal Scientist, not before! Which means she made Mettaton as a human eradication robot without the knowledge she had when she was researching the human SOULs. This means we have no reason to believe she made Mettaton strong enough to destroy High-Tier Humans.​

To put the nail on the coffin, let me also point out one last thing.​

⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀⠀Yes, lord Guru?

I don't want to sound arrogant... Can we re-do this take?... No? [F$#%]​

• In the Genocide Route dialogue, Mettaton states that these fuctions were never fully removed. This already means that these functions were mostly removed from him. This already means that the version of Mettaton NEO we see is definitely not anywhere near it's full capacity, and far from being at the same level as it would be if all the functions were still in it.​
• Even then, saying Alphys is capable of creating a robot that matches high tier humans just because she knew how strong humans were is a major headcanon. Having knowledge about a threat doesn't equal having the capacity of overcoming said threat.​
• Just because Mettaton was made intended to eradicate humanity, does not mean that he can. We don't know if Alphys made him strong enough or not after all!!! ....​

TL;DR
Alphys installed these Human Eradication features before knowing how strong humans can potentially be.
Mettaton NEO is severely weaker than a hypothetical full power Human-Extintion Mettaton would be.
Even if Alphys knew about the potential human strength, we have no reason to believe she would be able to make a robot to fight it.
While the intention is to build a robot capable of killing humans, the intention wouldn't mean that she succeded.​

---

"Chara gets a new key for when they possess Frisk in Genocide"
Honestly, making the argument above made me really tired. I disagree with this because Chara was sharing a body with Frisk,
and did not take over until the very end where they attack without the player's command.

I would make a more grounded rebuttal, but I just don't have the energy at the moment.
Time to eat some Glamburgers. I hope I made my case.​

This post gave me a seizure and cataracts simultaneously. That said...

I agree with the basis for the argument against Mettaton's upgrade. Even if it is possible for Mettaton to be higher tiered, this reaches into the realm of outright unlikelihood given the evidence against it. I would like it to be known to all that even a "possibly" rating requires significant implications, and a lack of significant counter-evidence, which this particular upgrade does not have.

The most Minute of Nitpick's, but, it'd be more accurate to say they were partially removed, as him saying they were not fully removed only means that the process wasn't fully followed through. That could mean she only took out a small portion of these capabilities, or that she could have removed a notable amount, or it could mean mostly, but beyond making a assumption based off a slight implication, we wouldn't really know to what degree these capabilities were removed. Anyways, uh, carry on, I'll go grab the popcorn-

I think this is a good point, and may be due some consideration, but in my opinion the amount of evidence against Mettaton scaling, even as a possibly, well outweighs the evidence supporting scaling.

It is my opinion, then, that Mettaton ought not scale in the proposed way, even as a "possibly" rating.

 

[Roachman40]

forgot about commenting on this thread lol, I disagree with the 7-C rating for NEO as we already discussed strym, seems theres more stuff but am too lazy to read the whole thread snore mi mi mi

 

[Eseseso]

Seems fine

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This post gave me a seizure and cataracts simultaneously. That said...

You know what they say, what not kill make stronger

 

[StrymULTRA]

Well, I'll leave the NEO talk for later on and just focus on the rest before returning to it.