The Undertale CRT!! (Low to High Tiers ONLY)

[RethPo]

Electricity has a quantifiable speed like that?... anyway asriels speed id prolly leave unknown considering how far above everyone he is, unless youre just talking about ps flowey. Vulkins lightning doesnt function much like real electricity but ehhh idc. Guess the scalings fine beyond that...
Though you can totally argue for ps flowey being way higher considering he can attack directly with the human souls and has their power which is equivilent to the soul (which is most of the monsters physicality) of literally thousands of monsters living in the underground.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Electricity has a quantifiable speed like that?...

Crazy right? That's the lowest speed, it seems. Vulkin's electricity can hurt a wall level dura character, so it's likely higher. (Calc'ing it would be stacking though(

anyway asriels speed id prolly leave unknown considering how far above everyone he is,

Fair.

unless youre just talking about ps flowey.

On AP, yes. On Speed, nope. But he'd qualify for Hypersonic.

Vulkins lightning doesnt function much like real electricity but ehhh idc. Guess the scalings fine beyond that...

I mean, it has real lava (as per the game's dialogue) even though they are bullets, so it wouldn't be far fetched to say the electricity is real too. (as per it's own dialogue)

Though you can totally argue for ps flowey being way higher considering he can attack directly with the human souls and has their power which is equivilent to the soul (which is most of the monsters physicality) of literally thousands of monsters living in the underground.

True.

 

[Psychomaster35]

So if we agree with upgrading the high tier characters to 9-A, should we add an "At least 9-A, likely much higher" rating for Photoshop Flowey?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So if we agree with upgrading the high tier characters to 9-A, should we add an "At least 9-A, likely much higher" rating for Photoshop Flowey?

I mean, yes. Likely far higher is basically a requirement, as he has everyone's SOULs.

 

[KingPin0422]

I mean, yes. Likely far higher is basically a requirement, as he has everyone's SOULs.

That's Asriel. PS Flowey just has the six human SOULs, and we know that just one human SOUL is almost as strong as all monster SOULs put together. In fact, Asriel with a single SOUL already could wipe out a village of humans despite their killing intent (one of his weaknesses), only dying because he was unwilling to fight them (his other weakness), although you could simply attribute that part to Asriel being a monster, monsters being much better at magic compared to humans, and human SOULs having much stronger magic than what monster SOULs can offer.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's Asriel. PS Flowey just has the six human SOULs, and we know that just one human SOUL is almost as strong as all monster SOULs put together. In fact, Asriel with a single SOUL already could wipe out a village of humans despite their killing intent (one of his weaknesses), only dying because he was unwilling to fight them (his other weakness), although you could simply attribute that part to Asriel being a monster, monsters being much better at magic compared to humans, and human SOULs having much stronger magic than what monster SOULs can offer.

Oh... Yeah.
PS Flowey is far higher due to these reasons.
He might lose that weakness of intent having a human-SOUL too, which makes sense.

 

[RethPo]

He shouldnt to begin with. Pretty sure you could make an argument for flowey easily being tier 8 factoring in the number of monsters in the hotlands and core you encounter coupled with the waterfall ones and the thousands of others with unknown (prolly mostly wall level) strength.

Could this be applied though or any more staff needed?

 

[BlastX]

Isn't it possible to give Omega Flowey a rating based on his size?

 

[Psychomaster35]

Isn't it possible to give Omega Flowey a rating based on his size?

I mean, he’s already 9-A by the looks of it, both by AP and the fact he looks to be the size of a small building

 

[GodlyCharmander]

He shouldnt to begin with. Pretty sure you could make an argument for flowey easily being tier 8 factoring in the number of monsters in the hotlands and core you encounter coupled with the waterfall ones and the thousands of others with unknown (prolly mostly wall level) strength.

I mean, using genocide numbers alone... Yeah. But since we already got things resolved in scaling, we could argue that.

 

[RethPo]

Isn't it possible to give Omega Flowey a rating based on his size?

Most likely, even his weakened state would scale to that. Only issue is that most of his body isnt shown on screen. Most art of him shows it being just fucktones of those giant moving vines and tubes.

Also if you guys are allowing ke scaling now then sans would prolly be wall level from that... got rejected before since its durability negating bones and less physical matter being made of magic.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

 

[Psychomaster35]

Bump

 

[RethPo]

Tbh i do lean towards disagreement on speed. The electric attacks functions literally nothing like electric (shot out as magical projectiles) and we actually see mettaton attack with real electrical currents which actually function how youd expect and frisk cant dodge.

For photoshop flowey though. 2000 times 0.0016 would be 3.2 tonnes or large building level. So at minimum flowey being able to attack with the human souls should make his full power that tier minimum.

The oven feat is something frisk with minimum determination outside of a fight can tank and scales to any monster that can hurt him.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Tbh i do lean towards disagreement on speed. The electric attacks functions literally nothing like electric (shot out as magical projectiles) and we actually see mettaton attack with real electrical currents which actually function how youd expect and frisk cant dodge.

It is called electricity, so I really see no reason to doubt it. And its lava is also referred as real lava by the narrator (which has real heat properties when Frisk hugs it).

Mettaton's electricity is far stronger than a non-lethal gun, so obviously it's faster.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

For photoshop flowey though. 2000 times 0.0016 would be 3.2 tonnes or large building level. So at minimum flowey being able to attack with the human souls should make his full power that tier minimum.

Why the arbitrary 2000x multiplier? There are far more than 2000 SOULs in the underground.

 

[RethPo]

Uhuh... even so i dont know why people believe "the shoot speed of a tesla gun being mach 1 makes any electricity at a minimum that speed"... since thats apparently the logic like where the hell is the basis for that being a minimum?

2000 is from the statement "thousands of people wishing together cant be wrong" refferring to the monsters making a wish to be free.
You could argue over 12000 going by mettatons quiz ratings being refferred to as viewers. Which would be 19.2 tonnes and city block level for flowey (just factoring one soul and not all 6)...

 

[chosen]

I found it funny how many monster there are in underground but tge kill count when you apparently killed them all ia nowhere near that number

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I found it funny how many monster there are in underground but tge kill count when you apparently killed them all ia nowhere near that number

You don't kill everyone, you kill enough to make yourself notorious.
Plus, we can blame game mechanics

 

[chosen]

You don't kill everyone, you kill enough to make yourself notorious.
Plus, we can blame game mechanics

I thought is stated frisk killed everyone and thw kill count was just game mechanics
Well that explains alot

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Uhuh... even so i dont know why people believe "the shoot speed of a tesla gun being mach 1 makes any electricity at a minimum that speed"... since thats apparently the logic like where the hell is the basis for that being a minimum?

Tesla Gun has a minuscule amount of voltage and thus, a very low drift speed (which is roughly dependent on amp, and volt). Any/Most fiction media that uses electricity as an offensive ability should scale above that, because there is no way their electricity is any weaker than a non-lethal one.

2000 is from the statement "thousands of people wishing together cant be wrong" refferring to the monsters making a wish to be free.
You could argue over 12000 going by mettatons quiz ratings being refferred to as viewers.

Uhhh, yeah, we can't multiply that by one calc alone. Different Monsters scales to different values. Mettaton's ratings are visual evidence for the number of people, and it fits the wording "thousands" from the first statement.

12000 is the number of to go.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I thought is stated frisk killed everyone.

Well, never heard of that. Snowdin Citizens clearly flee from you because you're a known killer.

 

[chosen]

Well, never heard of that. Snowdin Citizens clearly flee from you because you're a known killer.

O well

 

[KingPin0422]

Let's see... assuming the power of one human SOUL is 0.0016 tons x 12,000, that comes out to 19.2 tons. Multiply that by 6 as Flowey had that many human SOULs in his possession, and we get a value of 115.2 tons, which lands Photoshop Flowey in 8-A. It's not the best metric to use, but in lack of better options, it's good enough, I think. Don't know how viable the oven feat is for this scaling, though.

 

[RethPo]

The oven calc does factor in the objects being mostly unmoved so it probably can be used. Pyropes feat however isnt really useable beyond scaling to whatever a standard explosion would be due to the battle board being so inconsistent.

Weakened ps floweys durability would either be 9-A by size and scaling, or 8-B since well... frisk could take hits from the souls indivdually

(Whaddya think about the speed scaling derp?)

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Ahem.

1 Human SOUL is superior to 14600 Monster SOULs. But we have to take into account the multiple areas. (Wouldn't that scale to LV 20 Frisk?)

Spoiler: SOUL Scaling

We have 5 different locations.
Ruins Monsters (Scales to Chara's calc)
Snowdin Monsters (Scales to Ice Wolf's calc)
Waterfall Monsters (Scales to Oven's Explosion)
Hotland Monsters (Scales to Pyrope's Calc)
CORE Monsters (Scales to Mettaton's Calc)

The Underground have about 14600 Monsters (who have access to his show, could be more)

Snowdin, Waterfall and Hotland have the most citizens, as both Ruins and COREs are considerably small enclosed spaces, with the former being literally stated as such.

Let's say the three popular areas have 80% of the population. (11680 Monsters)
Snowdin: ~3893 Citizens
Waterfall: ~3893 Citizens
Hotland: ~3894 Citizens

Now, the rest of the population is located in the core, and Ruins.
Ruins: ~1460 Citizens
CORE: ~1460 Citizens

Now, we multiply the number of SOULs to their respective scaling calcs.

Ruins: (1460*40882 J) = 0,014265707457 Tons
Snowdin: (3893*64383 J) = 0,0599051192639 Tons
Waterfall: (3893*7 MJ) = 6,5131453154876 Tons
Hotland: (3893*8.5 MJ) = 7,9088193116635 Tons
CORE: (1460*99.6 MJ) = 28,56596558317399 Tons
One of the 5 monsters that live there scales to the 8.5 MJ feat.

292*8.5 MJ = 0,5932122370937 Tons

1168*99.6 MJ = 27,804206500956 Tons

Total Energy for all Monsters: 40,4816166 Tons (City-Block level)

Single Human SOUL > 40.48 Tons
6 Human SOUL = 242.8896996 Tons (Multi-City Block)

Peak Frisk would Scale to the 40.48 Tons value, as they clearly couldn't deal significant damage to Omega Flowey. Omega Flowey scales above the 242.8 Tons value.

What are your thoughts on this, everyone?

 

[Psychomaster35]

So this is 8-A, likely far higher for Photoshop Flowey?

Also, there is this video which got the ratings up to 14576.

And after further research, by equipping a piece of equipment after 20 turns, you would go up to 3000 points, so doing it at 11999 would go up to 14999, so we can round the underground population to being at least 15000.

 

[RethPo]

Both ruins and snowdin monsters scale to frisks oven feat, at least backscaling. Frisk doesnt get stronger through progression at all (outside of lv which is killing intent), he just adapts with determination. Frisk just has no determination at all in undynes house.

Also we dont really know how strong every hotlands and core monster is or how many live in those areas. Or if the random npcs even scale to anything beyond low tier ruins monsters. Which is why itd be better to just multiply the oven feat.

 

[KingPin0422]

Ahem.

1 Human SOUL is superior to 12000 Monster SOULs.

Humans are unbelievably strong. It would take the SOUL of nearly every monster just to equal the power of a single human SOUL.

TL;DR: <12,000 monster SOULs = 1 human SOUL.

Spoiler: SOUL Scaling

We have 5 different locations.
Ruins Monsters (Scales to Chara's calc)
Snowdin Monsters (Scales to Ice Wolf's calc)
Waterfall Monsters (Scales to Oven's Explosion)
Hotland Monsters (Scales to Pyrope's Calc)
CORE Monsters (Scales to Mettaton's Calc)

The Underground have over 12000 Monsters (who have access to his show, could be more)

Snowdin, Waterfall and Hotland have the most citizens, as both Ruins and COREs are considerably small enclosed spaces, with the former being literally stated as such.

Let's say the three popular areas have 80% of the population. (9600 Monsters)
Snowdin: ~3200 Citizens
Waterfall: ~3200 Citizens
Hotland: ~3200 Citizens

Now, the rest of the population is located in the core, and Ruins.
Ruins: ~1200 Citizens
CORE: ~1200 Citizens

Now, we multiply the number of SOULs to their respective scaling calcs.

Ruins: (1200*40882 J) = 0,0117252390057 Tons
Snowdin: (3200*64383 J) = 0,0492413001912 Tons
Waterfall: (3200*7 MJ) = 5,35372848948375 Tons
Hotland: (3200*8.5 MJ) = 6,50095602294455 Tons
CORE: (1200*99.6 MJ) = 28,56596558317399 Tons

Total Energy for all Monsters: 40,4816166 Tons (City-Block level)

Single Human SOUL > 40.48 Tons
6 Human SOUL = 242.8896996 Tons (Multi-City Block)

You do realize that the Ruins are still large enough to hold an entire city, right? Meanwhile, the CORE is literally just the underground's generator. It is much more of an enclosed space than the Ruins are, as its map shows. I don't see how monsters could have a civilization with a population of over 1,000 there.

Both ruins and snowdin monsters scale to frisks oven feat, at least backscaling. Frisk doesnt get stronger through progression at all (outside of lv which is killing intent), he just adapts with determination. Frisk just has no determination at all in undynes house.

Also we dont really know how strong every hotlands and core monster is or how many live in those areas. Or if the random npcs even scale to anything beyond low tier ruins monsters. Which is why itd be better to just multiply the oven feat.

Hmm? The CORE monsters have ATK stats higher than base Mettaton's (or very close to it, in Madjick's case). Do we not scale monsters based on Check stats anymore? I thought that was the whole premise behind determining who scales to what.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

TL;DR: <12,000 monster SOULs = 1 human SOUL.

Fair. But at the sams time, no. 1 human SOUL is relative to 12000 Monster SOULs.
12,000 is not the total population, it's the largest number we have backed up with evidence. The population is definitely higher than that.

You do realize that the Ruins are still large enough to hold an entire city, right?

The ruins are abandoned per the game's own words. We also do not know how large said City is, so 1200 citizens is still fair game. (Likely less, as the word "abandoned" wouldn't really apply to a place holding 1200 monsters)

Meanwhile, the CORE is literally just the underground's generator. It is much more of an enclosed space than the Ruins are, as its map shows.

You don't judge the size of a place based off in-game maps, otherwise the 12,000 population will seem absurd rapidly. The CORE is actually relatively big when looked at a distance, plus, Geothermical Generators in real life can reach 3km deep, or even more so I imagine one that powers the whole underground is beyond that

I don't see how monsters could have a civilization with a population of over 1,000 there.

Well, same applies to a lot of places, such as Hotland.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Both ruins and snowdin monsters scale to frisks oven feat, at least backscaling. Frisk doesnt get stronger through progression at all (outside of lv which is killing intent), he just adapts with determination.

No. Frisk won't be backscaled to anything.

Frisk just has no determination at all in undynes house.

That's an assumption, events that affect their determination already happened. Any event after a boss fight cannot be backscaled before said boss fight occured

Also we dont really know how strong every hotlands and core monster is or how many live in those areas. Or if the random npcs even scale to anything beyond low tier ruins monsters.

The beings who live in the CORE are the same as the ones we fight. Same applies to virtually any other location we visit, as we can Interact with said citizens in the overworld after fighting.

Which is why itd be better to just multiply the oven feat.

The premise doesn't justify the conclusion. The Over Feat applies to Waterfall Frisk, and nothing else before that.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

So this is 8-A, likely far higher for Photoshop Flowey?

Also, there is this video which got the ratings up to 14576.

Oh boy, oh boy. Is there a cap?
This is a 20% increase, so now it's 49,2 Tons per SOUL, and 295 Tons for Omega Flowey.

And after further research, by equipping a piece of equipment after 20 turns, you would go up to 3000 points, so doing it at 11999 would go up to 14999, so we can round the underground population to being at least 15000.

His limbs fall during these 20 turns, so you couldn't really go up to 11999, as the battle ends at 10k. (Boasting would prob do it, but we need visual evidence)

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Ok guys, let's see.
1. Mettaton show is Family show, that means that whole family can watch Mettaton but only from 1 TV.
2. There's HUGE chance of group of fans watching from 1 TV because we saw that Mettaton have fanbase.
3. There IS overpopulation like in every location.
4. Ruins couldn't watch Mettaton for like a lot of reasons

 

[Deleted member 16409]

And snowdin doesn't fully connected to Mettaton show according to Papyrus television.

 

[RethPo]

That's an assumption, events that affect their determination already happened. Any event after a boss fight cannot be backscaled before said boss fight occured

Its not an assumption at all. The boosts frisk gets dont stay with him. Otherwise hed be stomping nearly every monster he encounters since he already fought undyne. Even in the switch version frisk fights mad mew mew yet still fights snowdin monsters with the same difficulty he would if he chooses not to. Its blatantly not a linear progression.

The beings who live in the CORE are the same as the ones we fight. Same applies to virtually any other location we visit, as we can Interact with said citizens in the overworld after fighting.

....What? The npcs you see in the core before the end of the game never fight you at all. Saying that every monster who lives in the core is the same level is headcannon

The premise doesn't justify the conclusion. The Over Feat applies to Waterfall Frisk, and nothing else before that.

What? There is literally no proof waterfall frisk without any determination is any stronger than ruins frisk and its blatantly contradicted. None of his base stats increase at all, he clearly gets hurt by monsters weaker than ones he previously fought and nearly always fights at the level of his enemies besides some stone walls and flowey.

Also you do realise that by making all monsters not scale to minimally determined frisks oven feat and changing how the verse is treat entirely youd be arguing for all the monsters combine to be small building level or building if your hotlands and core population falls flat right?

Which it does... theres even tonnes of normal froggits and different types of monsters living in the castle area so monsters who just generally live in those areas dont all scale (especially to core monsters who are straight up assassins)

Also isnt pyropes 29 stats already comparable to some core monsters? He should scale to 9-A on his own from that

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Its not an assumption at all. The boosts frisk gets dont stay with him. Otherwise hed be stomping nearly every monster he encounters since he already fought undyne. Even in the switch version frisk fights mad mew mew yet still fights snowdin monsters with the same difficulty he would if he chooses not to. Its blatantly not a linear progression.

Nope. That's clearly a misuse of Game Mechanics, Frisk has no reason to tank a Pyrope's 8.5 Megajoule attacks when they're hurt by Monsters in the Kilojoule range in snowdin. Nothing justify their determination going up during a random battle either.
Any RPG will have you get damaged by low tier enemies if you backtrack, but you're literally not supposed to do so. (Fast Travels are there for a reason).
So you can't use that as an argument, since the narrative straight up does not take backtracking into consideration.

....What? The npcs you see in the core before the end of the game never fight you at all. Saying that every monster who lives in the core is the same level is headcannon.

Literally every other area was populated by the ones we fight, if you want to claim it's any different, then that's your burden of proof

What? There is literally no proof waterfall frisk without any determination is any stronger than ruins frisk

Ruin Frisk-Level characters are hurt by a 40 Kilojoule fall.

and its blatantly contradicted.

By the narrative? No, it's literally never contradicted.

None of his base stats increase at all, he clearly gets hurt by monsters weaker than ones he previously fought and nearly always fights at the level of his enemies besides some stone walls and flowey.

They never fight Flowey without the SOULs absorbed again, and the game never forces you to fight weaker monsters, therefore it's not part of the narrative. RPGs are entitled to a damage calculator that literally does not take narrative into consideration, the same factor happen multiple times in the Final Fantasy Games, and the weaker enemies are NOT backscaled from the main cast feats under the narrative.

Also you do realise that by making all monsters not scale to minimally determined frisks oven feat

You have yet to prove Frisk was minimally determined.

and changing how the verse is treat entirely youd be arguing for all the monsters combine to be small building level or building if your hotlands and core population falls flat right?

I don't care about results when making an argument.
"You shouldn't argue that because it might downgrade the verse" also isn't an argument.

Which it does... theres even tonnes of normal froggits and different types of monsters living in the castle area so monsters who just generally live in those areas dont all scale (especially to core monsters who are straight up assassins)

Castle Area isn't the CORE, it's an entirely separate city.
CORE monsters are not assassins, the two black banana-shaped people are.

Also isnt pyropes 29 stats already comparable to some core monsters? He should scale to 9-A on his own from that

Not linear, so no.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Btw, are Undertale upgrades to 9-A?

 

[chosen]

Bassically anyone who is base mettaton level and up will be 9a

 

[RethPo]

Nope. That's clearly a misuse of Game Mechanics, Frisk has no reason to tank a Pyrope's 8.5 Megajoule attacks when they're hurt by Monsters in the Kilojoule range in snowdin. Nothing justify their determination going up during a random battle either.
Any RPG will have you get damaged by low tier enemies if you backtrack, but you're literally not supposed to do so. (Fast Travels are there for a reason).
So you can't use that as an argument, since the narrative straight up does not take backtracking into consideration.

Dear god were seriously not still bringing in the gameplay mechanics arguments here are we?
Gameplay mechanics in undertale are literally cannon and enemies damaging frisk is as a result, its not misuse.
Wouldnt getting into a fight for survival be the main thing that makes your determination go up in any realistic scenario?
And its literally the only way frisk would suddenly fight on the level of every monster he encounters in the game without straight up ignoring the entire gameplay narrative. Its even referenced in fights with asgore and asriel and was the only thing increasing in the geno run (alongside lv) to make you stronger.

Youre also using this logic of getting damaged by low tier enemies... yet youre scaling the monsters to frisk anyway... Your logic isnt consistent here...
Its not even backtracking. You flat out fight and get hurt by the hotlands monsters after fighting undyne, despite undyne being flat out stronger than all of them.

Literally every other area was populated by the ones we fight, if you want to claim it's any different, then that's your burden of proof

How do I know how many enemies I need for the Genocide Route?

So, I have just completed the True Pacifist run in the game Undertale, and am now attempting a Genocide run. I understand that I need to kill everything, but I'm not sure if I've activated Genocide...

gaming.stackexchange.com

You can only encounter 40 (9-A) monsters in the core and hotlands combine before killing too many.
The rest youd find are scattered across the overworld as random monsters. You still have yet to prove the population is the same level... even though we have examples of monsters like alphys and random shopkeepers living in the waterfall and hotlands yet being clearly weak physically.

Also to back up the other point. Snowdin and the castle both have backgrounds with houses and cities and are clearly bigger than just the area we travel. The hotlands only has one hotel and some monsters dont even go there from how hot it is sooo it would make more sense for the other areas to be more densely populated. I dont even think anybody straight up lives in the core.

Ruin Frisk-Level characters are hurt by a 40 Kilojoule fall.

Frisk isnt hurt by the fall... chara as a child was (who just scales to being a human kid). But even then a high end wall level isnt exactly going to be unphased by falling head first onto solid ground. Also wasnt undyne hurt by an even lesser fall?

They never fight Flowey without the SOULs absorbed again, and the game never forces you to fight weaker monsters, therefore it's not part of the narrative. RPGs are entitled to a damage calculator that literally does not take narrative into consideration, the same factor happen multiple times in the Final Fantasy Games, and the weaker enemies are NOT backscaled from the main cast feats under the narrative.

Undertale is known for acknowledging options youre "never forced to do" and predicting things players do, even hacking the game. Why would it be a linear question when frisks canon stats dont make any form of linear progression whatsoever?

Also you didnt read my point here. Frisks stats (which are in the narrative) do not increase at any point in the pacifist run without items. It makes no sense for him even from a narrative standpoint to be increasing in strength throughout the game. Stop bringing up random rpgs that have literally no relevance here.

You have yet to prove Frisk was minimally determined.

Failed to knock over a tomato, did all of undynes tasks gently even with the options selected, refused to hurt undyne to the point of dealing only one damage... yeahhh clearly not lacking in determination there!

Castle Area isn't the CORE, it's an entirely separate city.
CORE monsters are not assassins, the two black banana-shaped people are.

Still, if monsters from all different regions can appear in the castle, why assume monsters in all areas are equal in strength?
The two black banana shaped people being overworld sprites to represent the core monsters attacking you in game.

Not linear, so no.

...Whats that even supposed to mean? Hows that relevant here? Hes flat out listed as having the same stats as core monsters, theres no way around that. Stats are canon information given to tell us a monsters strength. Its part of the narrative isnt it?

 

[RethPo]

Basically from what i see

8-A: Photoshop flowey (Either 8-B or 9-A dura when weakened) Edit: Also im not sure if there is a cap for mtts ratings but 12000+ is where it stopped, so oven stats times that number times 6 souls would make for a lowball
8-B: Individual human souls
9-A: Anybody with 29 stats or above (scaling to mettaton)
At least 9-B: Waterfall monsters, tsunderplane and vulkin, papyrus
9-B (oven scaling): Snowdin monsters and ruins monsters

For speed though, depends on whether the electricity thing gets fully accepted or not