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Giving to Undertale characters powers they should've always had.

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Yeah, I won't make introductions because this is a relatively quick CRT and I am genuinely surprised of the verse having none of it at all.

Existence Erasure

This boils down to both the Player and Chara in short.

Chara describes their act of destroying the world as being "erasure" (and it kinda of fits given that the files of the game get all destroyed), and in Deltarune, when the Player erases a save file, the game describes it as destroying it in a similar way as Chara speaks.

Aka The Player and Chara should get both Existence Erasure, as Chara erased the cosmology and took the Player's Determination to do so, with the Player still having said ability in Deltarune.

Asriel should also get it, as himself also says in a similar way the act of destroying the cosmology, with the "world ending" after that he destroyed the timeline with the Hyper Goner, and he knows very well what is the act of erasure.

So what do I want to say here?

Chara and the Player should have EE, with Asriel also getting it because of having similar degrees of DT and him also having initially the same plan as Chara to destroy everything, meaning that his ability to destroy the timeline shouldn't be any different from Chara's.

Asriel and Frisk should also get a Resistance to Existence Erasure, as Frisk can still survive the destruction of the timeline from the Hyper Goner if they do not dodge it.

Why not Chara? We'll see now.

Low-Godly Regeneration gets changed to Resurrection

This should be pretty straightfoward. If what Frisk had was Regeneration, they wouldn't need the Dream to heal from Asriel's attacks during the fight, as they'd constantly heal from damage, as that's what Regeneration does.

Aka the Regeneration/Type 3 Immortality should simply be changed to Resurrection as Frisk can achieve that only when their HP get reduced to 0 and they can't use LOAD their SAVE due to having their DT matched/surpassed from someone else. The degree of it will be basically the same, but this has to be specified.

Chara however loses it due to them still being a NEP being as already said in their profile, making them having Regen bogus. Thus, they also lose Type 3 Immortality and have it replaced with Type 2 for the same reason Frisk and Flowey have.

Determination Users for some reason do not have Empowerment

This is genuinely the most confusing thing this wiki ever had. Because is the literal definition of Empowerment is to get powered up from their feelings, which is what happens all the time in the verse.

Frisk can literally fight essentially anyone in the verse in an equal manner, from a fodder Loox to a guy with literally infinite statistics right because of the amount of Determination they're feeling per each fight, as Determination is the supernatural will to get living and persist against death, and Asriel himself even says that is thanks to their DT that Frisk was able to get this far in their adventure.

Or another example is Undyne transforming in her Undyne form after being cut in half from Chara, and thus getting her stats jumped from 50 ATK/41 DEF to a whooping 99 ATK/99 DEF.

This is already accepted as being Supernatural Willpower on the wiki, so that being in the same category as Empowerment in-verse should kinda be common sense.

And by the way, Photoshop Flowey should already get these, as he could get back the control over the SAVE file thanks to his DT being superior to Frisk's.

Edit: I forgot about the Amalgamates, they'd get it too.

Asriel's 2-B key should have a clarification between his "base" and True Form

Alright, so saying that Asriel has just one form like the key implies is stupid, because he does not destroy the cosmology passively, nor has the passive paralysis when the battle starts, but only when he has the transforms in his True Power, and we have also a confirmation of his "regular form" being only a fraction of his real power.

So I guess the God of Hyperdeath key should be reworked, the stats would be something like "2-B, far higher when using his real power" and the Status Effect Inducement and Passive Paralysis Inducement instead will be placed in a new tabber called "While using his real power", with the other ones being instead in a tabber called "While holding back" or something.

(Maybe) Type 2 Information hax????

EDIT: IGNORE ALL THE CONCEPT STUFF MENTIONED HERE, I FORGOT A QUALIFIER FOR IT.

Alright, so bear with me here, as I am not even too sure of this myself (heck I was myself against this once). This is the most controversial part of the CRT, but let me try to cook here, okay?

So, we know that Undertale is very metafictional, right? Because the game world seems to play a bit with the fact that it is a .exe file.

The first example is Photoshop Flowey messing with the game's code, changing the SAVE File in his own and warping the game's title to FLOWEYTALE.

The second example is Chara. Remember when they destroy the game, even affecting the real files? Well, not even messing with the game is capable of reversing the damage, and Toby Fox originally planned to make the .exe file delete itself, so that already says something.

  • Absolute Chara, God of Hyperdeath Asriel and The Player will get Info Type 2 alongside EE, because of them being able to erase the game world.
  • Peak DT Frisk will get a "likely" Type 2 Info because of them using the TRUE RESET which is "probably" used from Chara to restore the game world after its destruction as said on their profile, though it's because of @Roachman40's blog says so currently. They can update it if they want to make it a straight up rating obviously.
  • Asriel and Frisk will get not only Resistance to EE, but also to Info Type 2 given that Asriel aimed to erase the timeline with Hyper Goner in a similar way Chara used their power.
  • Absolute Chara gets Type 1 NEP on also Aspect and 4.
And that's it?
 
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Existence Erasure
I don't think ending someone's existence via destroying the very existence of everything counts as a hax, just the aftermath of their AP. Not sure if this should be a hax.

(Just like anyone with Tier 2 DC technically "erases" people from existence by destroying all the points in time which they exist via destroying time and space, they shouldn't really get EE as a hax)

Low-Godly Regeneration gets changed to Resurrection
The regeneration does trigger when the SOUL is split in half. It should be changed to limited Regeneration since it depends on a condition, and Resurrection should be added.

I agree with everything else expect this:

The second example is Chara. Remember when they destroy the game, even affecting the real files? Well, not even messing with the game is capable of reversing the damage, and Toby Fox originally planned to make the .exe file delete itself, so that already says something.

I think those can be enough for both Info Type 2 and Concept Type 2 (on the same basis how DDLC and Imscared got both of these powers as well, as the files here make up existence as well). If these get accepted, this will happen:
Nah. Since the files are the game's very existence, destroying the world causes the files to be "destroyed" as well. It's more of a chain reaction than an direct hax/manipulation of the files, unlike DDLC and Imscared. DDLC, Monika actually just deletes the files manually instead of physically attacking the cosmology and causing the end of the world.

This would then mean anyone with the same AP as Chara and Asriel would automatically get this hax, which is not really how it's supposed to work. I like your logic here, but it doesn't work.
 
Was planning to give him back 4th wall awareness coz of the Hacker Ending but @Roachman40 dislikes the idea so I had to stop about that 💀
Sans can attack you from the menu and recognizes the game's "turn system", isn't that enough to have Fourth Wall Awareness?

Edit: He also winks at the screen sometimes, lol.
 
The regeneration does trigger when the SOUL is split in half. It should be changed to limited Regeneration since it depends on a condition, and Resurrection should be added.
It would cause confusion though. Because they're essentially the same thing but with different names here. Plus Asriel says that Frisk dies when they do that thing, so... I don't think Regen fits.
This would then mean anyone with the same AP as Chara and Asriel would automatically get this hax, which is not really how it's supposed to work. I like your logic here, but it doesn't work.
To be fair, while this logic makes sense, there's also the fact that Flowey and the Player can indeed affect the files thanks to their DT, so I think that it's a bit more than just "lol AP negs it".

Plus the wiki accepts destroying Info Type 2 spaces as having Information Type 2,
 
I remember making a CRT similar to this but it drowned in obscurity.

I'll request it (my CRT) to be closed since it's pretty dead and this one handles it.
 
It would cause confusion though. Because they're essentially the same thing but with different names here. Plus Asriel says that Frisk dies when they do that thing, so... I don't think Regen fits.
Problem is we need to acknowledge the soul being split and reconnecting together. Ressurrection wouldn't do that.
We either say their soul has regeneration (but not their body), or we limit their regeneration and explain in the (parenthesis) why it's limited/conditional. I think it's the best compromise since you're not wrong about Frisk not having regen in-battle.
To be fair, while this logic makes sense, there's also the fact that Flowey and the Player can indeed affect the files thanks to their DT, so I think that it's a bit more than just "lol AP negs it".

Plus the wiki accepts destroying Info Type 2 spaces as having Information Type 2,
Well, if that's the case, Type 2 Info is fine. Type 2 Conceptual is iffy still. Flowey can affect the files thanks to DT, but the best he does is create a new intro and make a black room, which might be better suited as limited data/text manipulation, most, if not all, of the game is still intact after we defeat him.
 
Sans can attack you from the menu and recognizes the game's "turn system", isn't that enough to have Fourth Wall Awareness?

Edit: He also winks at the screen sometimes, lol.
The turn system and most of the game mechanics are actually canon and which is why Sans has Law hax

Winking was rejected for being too vague
 
Problem is we need to acknowledge the soul being split and reconnecting together. Ressurrection wouldn't do that.
Resurrection on wiki works based on Regen levels, you can have High Godly resurrection now (or Mid Godly like Bill Cipher's case).
Well, if that's the case, Type 2 Info is fine. Type 2 Conceptual is iffy still. Flowey can affect the files thanks to DT, but the best he does is create a new intro and make a black room, which might be better suited as limited data/text manipulation, most, if not all, of the game is still intact after we defeat him.
I think that if data in Undertale is indeed conceptual and Flowey can affect it to an extent, then it is indeed still conceptual manipulation because of him doing that, just that is very minor, but is still affecting concepts nontheless (I can't write).
 
I think that if data in Undertale is indeed conceptual and Flowey can affect it to an extent, then it is indeed still conceptual manipulation because of him doing that, just that is very minor, but is still affecting concepts nontheless (I can't write).
(You're okay)
Yeah but he's not manipulating the very concept of the data, he is just manipulating what the data is saying, you know?

Let's take time for an example. Time is conceptual, but just manipulating what time does isn't conceptual manipulation unless you alter what time literally is. I think this is the case, Flowey is adding some context and information into the games data, but it's conceptually the same thing. A good data manipulation is better than an iffy conceptual manip ihmo.

Resurrection on wiki works based on Regen levels, you can have High Godly resurrection now (or Mid Godly like Bill Cipher's case).
Yeah, but that's Resurrecting "up to X level of damage", it wouldn't make the original soul, body or mind regenerate on the spot like Frisk's SOUL. I think we should make both abilities co-exist, like the Res page says:

"When in the hands of a character who uses resurrection on themselves, giving them some degree of Immortality, this ability often co-exists with Regeneration, though the process can take some time."

My proposition is:

  • limited Regeneration and Resurrection (Low-Godly; Even in the event of Frisk's SOUL being obliterated, it possesses the ability to regenerate itself and thereby resurrect Frisk's physical form)
Or something along these lines
 
You know what, I agree fr

Could also include the fact that Chara block ESC, making it not possible
 
(Maybe) Type 2 and Concept 2 Information hax????

Alright, so bear with me here, as I am not even too sure of this myself (heck I was myself against this once). This is the most controversial part of the CRT, but let me try to cook here, okay?

So, we know that Undertale is very metafictional, right? Because the game world seems to play a bit with the fact that it is a .exe file.

The first example is Photoshop Flowey messing with the game's code, changing the SAVE File in his own and warping the game's title to FLOWEYTALE.

The second example is Chara. Remember when they destroy the game, even affecting the real files? Well, not even messing with the game is capable of reversing the damage, and Toby Fox originally planned to make the .exe file delete itself, so that already says something.

I think those can be enough for both Info Type 2 and Concept Type 2 (on the same basis how DDLC and Imscared got both of these powers as well, as the files here make up existence as well). If these get accepted, this will happen:
  • Absolute Chara, God of Hyperdeath Asriel and The Player will get Info Type 2 and Concept Type 2 alongside EE, because of them being able to erase the game world.
  • Peak DT Frisk will get a "likely" Type 2 CM and Type 2 Info because of them using the TRUE RESET which is "probably" used from Chara to restore the game world after its destruction as said on their profile, though it's because of @Roachman40's blog says so currently. They can update it if they want to make it a straight up rating obviously.
  • Asriel and Frisk will get not only Resistance to EE, but also to Info Type 2 and Concept Type 2 given that Asriel aimed to erase the timeline with Hyper Goner in a similar way Chara used their power.
  • Absolute Chara gets Type 1 NEP on also Aspects 2 and 4.
  • Photoshop Flowey gets a "limited" on those due to him being able to just change them on a minor scale, but not warp it enough to get a full rating instead.
And that's it?
I can see type 2 information since the characters literally mess with the game files, which make up the game.

But type 2 concept? I can not see anything. I even got confused after I finished reading because I didn't see anything conceptual in my opinion.
 
Let's take time for an example. Time is conceptual, but just manipulating what time does isn't conceptual manipulation unless you alter what time literally is. I think this is the case, Flowey is adding some context and information into the games data, but it's conceptually the same thing. A good data manipulation is better than an iffy conceptual manip ihmo.
Whatever, I am neutral.

Still think that the God Tiers should have it alongside Type 2 info.
But type 2 concept? I can not see anything. I even got confused after I finished reading because I didn't see anything conceptual in my opinion.
You're not forced to make it namedrop the name "concept" to make it concept hax. DDLC, Imscared and Chrono have gotten concept hax despite that word was never mentioned once, because of them manipulating/destroying the thing/element that makes up reality/existence itself, and UT is on a similar case.
 
You're not forced to make it namedrop the name "concept" to make it concept hax. DDLC, Imscared and Chrono have gotten concept hax despite that word was never mentioned once, because of them manipulating/destroying the thing/element that makes up reality/existence itself, and UT is on a similar case.
But that's what type 2 information is.

This is fundamental information that makes up reality.

In this sense, everyone who destroys type 2 information should gain a type 2 concept, since they destroy fundamental components of reality. Something I don't see happening out there.
 
In this sense, everyone who destroys type 2 information should gain a type 2 concept, since they destroy fundamental components of reality. Something I don't see happening out there.
Mate, DDLC and Imscared got both Info and Concept on the same basis, as in these cases data makes up literally everything in the verse, even space-time, so I think you're missing something here.
 
Mate, DDLC and Imscared got both Info and Concept on the same basis, as in these cases data makes up literally everything in the verse, even space-time, so I think you're missing something here.
Or are these verses wrong? He knows?

Data that makes up all reality including space-time is type 2 information because it is literally information/data.

Otherwise, by this logic we could give a type 2 concept to all those who manipulate type 2 information, because they manipulate/destroy/absorb fundamental data that makes up reality. And that's not something I see happening a lot out there.
 
Or are these verses wrong? He knows?
Nah, they're not. They clearly did set a precedent apparentely.
Data that makes up all reality including space-time is type 2 information because it is literally information/data.
Which also fits Type 2 concept. I think it qualifies as both due to in both cases because of datas here extending to the whole cosmology rather than simply making a small part of reality, I suppose.
Otherwise, by this logic we could give a type 2 concept to all those who manipulate type 2 information, because they manipulate/destroy/absorb fundamental data that makes up reality. And that's not something I see happening a lot out there.
If said datas make up all the cosmology, then sure, go ahead and make the upgrade.
 
Which also fits Type 2 concept. I think it qualifies as both due to in both cases because of datas here extending to the whole cosmology rather than simply making a small part of reality, I suppose.
If said datas make up all the cosmology, then sure, go ahead and make the upgrade.
Does it literally make no difference if it makes up the entire cosmology?

Because that's literally what type 2 information is.
Fundamental: These characters can manipulate information, which serves as fundamental building block of reality.

It's not "A small part of reality" it's reality itself. It literally makes no difference.
 
To be fair, if those two things were accepted as both CM 2 and Info 2, I believe is because of those things making up all the cosmology, unlike the "regular" cases of Info 2, I think.

This is why this wiki accepts those two verses as having both of these abilities.
 
To be fair, if those two things were accepted as both CM 2 and Info 2, I believe is because of those things making up all the cosmology, unlike the "regular" cases of Info 2, I think.

This is why this wiki accepts those two verses as having both of these abilities.
No, I literally just asked @Theglassman12 and he said no, destroying a cosmology made up of type 2 information would not give a type 2 concept, and one power is not even related to the other. Unless it is specified in the verse that the two are related.
 
No, I literally just asked @Theglassman12 and he said no, destroying a cosmology made up of type 2 information would not give a type 2 concept, and one power is not even related to the other. Unless it is specified in the verse that the two are related.
Cool, make a downgrade against both or something.

Because either he's wrong, or the staff missed something twice.
 
I still don't think we should say both Regeneration and Resurrection, feels very, very wrong.

Plus I want to make it High Godly but I don't have a good argument lmfao.
 
Average VBW's double standards.
It's better to logically assess a reasoning to give this verse CM Type 2 rather than using other verses. Go through the threads, see why it was accepted there, does the logic and arguments apply to undertale? I know the ones for DDLC certainly doesn't.
 
It's better to logically assess a reasoning to give this verse CM Type 2 rather than using other verses. Go through the threads, see why it was accepted there, does the logic and arguments apply to undertale? I know the ones for DDLC certainly doesn't.
I already did say that for UT it technically can be argued as the datas do compose existence entirely as implied from both the Photoshop Flowey stuff and Chara destroying the game (though I admit again that I am not that sure).

Though I think I should call the staff who came for both DDLC and Imscared so we'll decide on what will happen, already got a headache so I got a bad mood lol.
 
to clarify for imscared, it has concept type 2 because files makeup the world of the game. files are not physical things but they link to objects in the game world, modifying a file linked to an object modifies the object, deleting the file deletes the object, etc etc.

considering this, the files (for imscared) act like type 2 concepts

2. Dependent Concepts: Such concepts are abstract and govern all reality within their area of influence. These concepts shape everything, and changing them would either require the alteration of every object of the concept or, if manipulated directly, change all objects of the concept alongside the concept itself. These concepts, however, exist simultaneously with and are bound by the object of the concept. In this way, an abstract dependent concept can be destroyed by destroying all objects of the concept, restored by re-making an object of a previously existent concept, or changed by changing all objects of the concept across reality. This, however, does not qualify for this form of conceptual manipulation, and is rather treated as a by-product of another action akin to a "domino effect". This type of conceptual manipulation can only be obtained if the abstract concept itself is changed directly, and not by indirect methods. For example, destroying humanity and thus "ending the concept of humanity" would not qualify, while directly "ending the concept of humanity" and thus destroying humanity would qualify.
 
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