Perpetua Downgrade

[Antvasima]

You need to stop this. You preface every single argument with "as a person who knows more than you uncultured swines my opinion is fact" and then you never provide a single shred of evidence for your claims.

I have done so in the past, but I am juggling at least 40-50 different discussion threads at the same time, along with handling most of the wiki edit patrolling work on my lonesome, and handling other Fandom duties, so my available time and focus are very limited.

Also, I am consistently making an effort to be respectful, helpful, and polite. Making toxic and false accusations is not appreciated. I am telling the truth as I perceive it based on my experiences. I am not a lying or manipulative sort. My problem is rather that I lack mental filters.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I have done so in the past, but I am juggling at least 40-50 different discussion threads at the same time, along with handling most of the wiki edit patrolling work on my lonesome, and handling other Fandom duties, so my available time is limited.

So don't expect anyone to consider your opinionn on these threads as a defining factor.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Agreed. I hate the Batman Who Laughs like I said earlier, but he should still be scaled accurately on the wiki. Does that mean I'll read anything Death Metal? No, of course not. Still not touching that. But, the character should still be scaled accurately.

If scaling were up to my preferences, Hibana from Fire Force would casually slap the Cthulhu Mythos.

 

[Deagonx]

To say that Hypertime is 2-B or that DC only has 52 universes IS to be biased and incorrect.

Well, it's certainly not incorrect, since I've objectively substantiated it with nearly 20 direct statements from DC's highest cosmic beings. As far as the word "biased" is concerned, it seems the issue is that you simply don't know what the word bias means.

Hypertime is Low 1-C as a minimum and there are dozens of statements clarifying that the DC Multiverse actually has infinite universes beyond the local 52.

Then post the scans of those statements? Likewise, Perpetua is the topic here, and her own description of her multiverse is that it has a finite 52 universes. Further, the 52 universes aren't "local" the multiverse itself is what is called local. The 52 are called the "known" worlds in Multiversity, but that can be chalked up to the Monitors refraining from concluding there were no more worlds even though they could only find 52. Perpetua rules the Multiverse, so she would know about all of them.

To say that the Sphere of the Gods realms aren't metaphysical when countless statements about that exist on literally every depiction is beyond bias its lying.

Again, a vague reference to some mountain of evidence that has not yet been provided. Countless statements? The only one that has ever been provided is Batman's statement, which is wrong in calling it platonic which already puts its validity into question. Likewise, cool your temper, there's no need to get emotional if the evidence is firmly on your side, as you claim it is.

New Gods come from a kind of Platonic, archetypal world. Everything you brought up would be contradicted, retconned or irrelevant (since a realm looking physical doesn't mean that it necessarily is.)

First, the world is decidedly not Platonic. Platonism emphasizes two main characteristics of it's concepts are that they are eternal and unchanging. This is not the case for any realm or being in the Sphere, as they were created by either Perpetua or belief itself, and they've changed over time in the case of the New Gods, being recreated by Nix. Further, it's one thing to "look" physical and another for interactions to be based on strictly physical concepts, for physical characters to visit the realm willy nilly.and fight allegedly metaphysical beings, and for the gods of these realms themselves to describe the realms in physical terms. This cannot be overridden by one single character statement or even a handful of them.

We had an entire thread to basically confirm that a timeline is essentially a space-time continuum. I can give you the quote from the guy who made the tiering system if you want.

I mean you can if you want, but you need to prove this is the case in DC comics. This is a purely fictional concept, therefore it's erroneous to apply a hard rule across all verses for how it works. In DC, decidedly not-universal characters have affected and destroyed timelines within a single universe, proving it does not work that way in DC.

Outliers for the league, let's hope they keep being outliers unless we want Low1-C/1-A Superman. In fact Pre-Crisis Supes doesn't even scale to 2-B Darkseid currently due to being considered an outlier.

On what basis is it an outlier for the league rather than a long series of antifeats for the Gods? We can't just call feats we don't like outliers. Many many instances exist of characters going to the Sphere and defeating its natives.

PrinceOfTheMorning's blog. Where it is stated Hypertime does in fact connect all cosmologies/all parts of DC, which can also be seen in Flash War. You could even argue Hypertime binds The Sphere of The Gods, I am pretty uncertain

The canon creator of Hypertime literally debunks this notion on panel. The number of universes exists independent of Hypertime, proving the cosmologies do not stay forever within Hypertime after being destroyed.

This is further confirmed in the fight between Perpetua and TDK. The imminent end of the multiverse results in the hypertime possibilities dying out, which wouldn't be the case if hypertime maintained the universes despite their destruction in-verse. If it was ever the case, it's clearly been retconned on panel.

Also btw you claim that World Forger is entirely above Hypertime and y'know Perpetua scales to him due to being her son. Yet you also claim Perpetua has to destroy the universes that are a part of Hypertime one by one and that her going to the sixth dimension wouldn't help her get rid of the multiverse. So which is it, is World Forger superior to the multiverse that he created or would he too have to destroy universes one by one? (this isn't even accounting for higher realms)

He's above hypertime in the sense that his perception of the multiverse isn't limited to a single timeline, which means his perception of the multiverse collapsing to 52 universes accounts for the notion that Hypertime keeps the cosmology structures, and debunks it.

Further, Hypertime doesn't contain the multiverse, hypertime is the 4th dimension of the multiverse.

I also think that we are giving the Overvoid's single reality-fiction difference enormous special treatment compared to other fictions in terms of tiering

I would genuinely be hard pressed to support the argument that there is any reality-fiction difference presence in DC. Perpetua and the hands are from the Overvoid, yet clearly consider the lowest beings in DC as "real" and not fictional. The Overvoid literally encroached upon the multiverse when the Source Wall came down, which makes the idea that it is "real" to a "fictional" multiverse difficult to support.

just that the higher tiers of the cosmology remain unchanged. So anything under the Sphere of the Gods gets retconned by these writers and like Deagonx said we see what exactly gets retconned in the comic so we don’t have to guess

Realms from the Sphere and above have likewise decidedly been retconned. There's no reason to think they are immune to it. The Perpetua storyline made a huge retcon to the Sphere, establishing its origin as a realm Perpetua created, first inhabited by the embodiment of the Collective Unconscious -- Hecate -- which was then populated solely by religions and belief systems. Retcons happen at every single level.

Well, speaking as somebody who has actually read a massive amount of stories with these characters, several of the DC and Marvel cosmic entities that we give the highest statistics are not currently portrayed at anywhere near such levels as far as I am aware.

Absolutely agree, and for a good reason. DC writers are absolutely unconcerned with battle boarding or making sure high tiers are "competitive" against the more abstract works of fiction. Concept control and metaphysics quickly become incoherent and unworkable within a story that involves regular physical beings which is one of the reasons why Final Crisis (and much of Morrison's cosmology stories) are considered a slog to read.

A heavy level of emotion is brought to the table by battleboarding fans who are eager for their verse's "top dogs" to be competitive at tiers 0, 1, and 2, even if it requires ignoring tons of evidence to the contrary, and piecing together a handful of character statements across collective decades of continuity and dozens of writers, flying in the face of actual feats, storylines, and well established power systems in the comics.

Again, the notion that DC actually had infinite universes makes Perpetua's storyline incoherent, and if she can destroy infinite universes it makes the fact that she was destroying them one by one, and the fact that she herself said she couldn't, incoherent.

So why fight so hard? It's this simple: the comic both showed us and told us that Perpetua is universal to low multi-universal at best. Who cares if she can fight 3812 or not? Who cares if she can fight The One Above All? Who cares if she can beat Yog-Sothoth? Her storyline is good. That's why we read the comics.

 

[Tllmbrg]

I have done so in the past, but I am juggling at least 40-50 different discussion threads at the same time, along with handling most of the wiki edit patrolling work on my lonesome, and handling other Fandom duties, so my available time is limited.

Look man I understand you're busy but if you can't provide evidence due to a lack of time your voice shouldn't really eh count for much imo
You gotta be able to actually back what you say

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Absolutely agree, and for a good reason. DC writers are absolutely unconcerned with battle boarding or making sure high tiers are "competitive" against the more abstract works of fiction. Concept control and metaphysics quickly become incoherent and unworkable within a story that involves regular physical beings which is one of the reasons why Final Crisis (and much of Morrison's cosmology stories) are considered a slog to read.

A heavy level of emotion is brought to the table by battleboarding fans who are eager for their verse's "top dogs" to be competitive at tiers 0, 1, and 2, even if it requires ignoring tons of evidence to the contrary, and piecing together a handful of character statements across collective decades of continuity and dozens of writers, flying in the face of actual feats, storylines, and well established power systems in the comics.

^^^

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I also want to add this: if people wanted to downgrade DC out of spite, and it's the most accurate scaling, we've still accomplished our goal of giving an accurate scaling for the verse. Granted, I'm not trying to justify downgrading or upgrading verses out of spite. I'm just saying that if the scaling is more accurate, the motive behind changing it to that more accurate scaling doesn't make it less accurate. Motives behind giving facts don't change the validity of the facts given.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I have a pretty coherent picture of how the continuities work after reading several thousand comicbooks while growing up. Even PrinceOfTheMorning considered me highly knowledgeable regarding these issues, but my interest in the franchises has faded considerably recently, and my attention is constantly severely divided, so I cannot focus properly on discussions anymore. As such, I have mainly tried to be attentive regarding when I find some highly knowledgeable members, such as PrinceOfTheMorning, Sandman31, ClassicNESfan, LuciferDC099, or likely Deagonx, and ask them to investigate how we can improve the reliability of our tiers.

Anyway, this is a thread that should be focused on the revisions, not on me defending myself from personal attacks, and I am extremely tired and have to go to bed now anyway.

 

[Xearsay]

What is the problem with this, exactly?

The problem is the reason for why she would need to gather enough energy.

The Crisis energy she was receiving from the Dark Multiverse. But even if that was their base power, thats still 2-C

She received that in response to being depowered off panel.

It proves that scaling above Mxy does not necessitate that she is multiversal.

If Mxy is rated as Multiversal on here how does scaling beyond Mxy not make you Multiversal?

 

[Antvasima]

I also want to add this: if people wanted to downgrade DC out of spite, and it's the most accurate scaling, we've still accomplished our goal of giving an accurate scaling for the verse. Granted, I'm not trying to justify downgrading or upgrading verses out of spite. I'm just saying that if the scaling is more accurate, the motive behind changing it to that more accurate scaling doesn't make it less accurate. Motives behind giving facts don't change the validity of the facts given.

I am not driven by spite in my wiki work. It would be very uncharacteristic for me. I want the wiki to be as reliable as possible.

That I want to fire the editorial managements of Marvel and DC Comics, and return the stories to similar high quality, relative coherence, respect for continuity, and overall sensibilities as the Jim Shooter respectively Paul Levitz eras, is not related to my professional wiki work. It is tied to nostalgia over beloved story settings and characters that have been disrespected so much, and turned so morbid in Marvel's case, that I do not recognise the franchises anymore.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, I am going to sleep now. Please try to remain polite and respectful while I am gone.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

I am not driven by spite in my wiki work. It would be very uncharacteristic for me. I want the wiki to be as reliable as possible.

That I want to fire the editorial managements of Marvel and DC Comics, and return the stories to similar high quality, relative coherence, respect for continuity, and overall sensibilities as the Jim Shooter respectively Post-Crisis eras, is not related to my professional wiki work. It is tied to nostalgia over beloved stories that have been disrespected so much, and turned so morbid in Marvel's case, that I do not recognise the franchises anymore.

Jim Shooter was that guy, ngl

 

[Xearsay]

I also want to add this: if people wanted to downgrade DC out of spite, and it's the most accurate scaling, we've still accomplished our goal of giving an accurate scaling for the verse. Granted, I'm not trying to justify downgrading or upgrading verses out of spite. I'm just saying that if the scaling is more accurate, the motive behind changing it to that more accurate scaling doesn't make it less accurate. Motives behind giving facts don't change the validity of the facts given.

How is trying to downgrade Perpetua to universal off one outlier presenting facts?

How is saying DC has 52 universes and opting to personally ignore Multiversity presenting to us that those are only the known universes, facts?

This is not facts. This is cherry picking and intentionally ignoring context out of personal bias.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

How is trying to downgrade Perpetua to universal off one outlier presenting facts?

How is saying DC has 52 universes and opting to personally ignore Multiversity presenting to us that those are only the known universes, facts?

First off, I'm neutral on the thing. Second, my post was addressing the claim that this was showing bias against comics.

 

[Antvasima]

For the record, I disagree with DC only having 52 universes, given that it was established in Multiversity that there were infinite clusters with universes, if I remember correctly.

 

[Axxtentacle]

Honestly, i’d never seen Ant seem like a person till some of these one piece/DC threads. It’s actually pretty cool to see.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Honestly, i’d never seen Ant seem like a person till some of these one piece/DC threads. It’s actually pretty cool to see.

Bruh lol

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I usually make an effort to be professional, and am a workaholic obsessive-compulsive autistic perfectionist in general, but I really love One Piece, and am rather depressed over how many of the other things that I loved in media have been disrespected, twisted and distorted just to serve personal ideological agendas.

 

[Deagonx]

The problem is the reason for why she would need to gather enough energy.

Why is this a problem? It's not like it's inconsistent.

If Mxy is rated as Multiversal on here how does scaling beyond Mxy not make you Multiversal?

Simple, he's not multiversal.

How is trying to downgrade Perpetua to universal off one outlier presenting facts?

Off one outlier? It's consistent throughout her entire storyline. The outlier is creating a multiverse, which is explained by the fact that she says it was power entrusted to her.

How is saying DC has 52 universes and opting to personally ignore Multiversity presenting to us that those are only the known universes, facts?

Because even if Multiversity established had that there were more outside of those known 52, it was clearly retconned by the Perpetua storyline. Why would one line from Multiversity be more important to understanding Perpetua's storyline than what Perpetua herself said multiple times in her own storyline, and what numerous other characters said in her own storyline?

That's cherry-picking

 

[Axxtentacle]

I hope One Piece stays as good as it has been.

 

[Rikimarox2]

Well, this thread became heated as shit quite quickly.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Well, this thread became heated as shit quite quickly.

Unfortunately...

 

[Antvasima]

Well, let's return back to the main discussion please. I think that Deagonx has largely done a great job so far.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Well, let's return back to the main discussion please. I think that Deagonx has largely done a great job so far.

Agreed. We kind of derailed there for a bit.

 

[First_Witch]

Just quickly read through this trainwreck (Because i love controversal CRT's) but is there any reason why we can't just make Keys/Pages depending on the writers version of cosmology? If those cosmology's differ so widly between each other that a character can be tiered between 1a and 2c, why do we try to hamfist them into a composite cosmology, or why do we pick a specific version of it, when all version only differ (when it comes to legitmacy) in how recent they there? Just make a Snyder and Morrison version of perpetua (Dunno if what i wrote made sense, never touched a comic book)

 

[Tllmbrg]

Just quickly read through this trainwreck (Because i love controversal CRT's) but is there any reason why we can't just make Keys/Pages depending on the writers version of cosmology? If those cosmology's differ so widly between each other that a character can be tiered between 1a and 2c, why do we try to hamfist them into a composite cosmology, or why do we pick a specific version of it, when all version only differ (when it comes to legitmacy) in how recent they there? Just make a Snyder and Morrison version of perpetua (Dunno if what i wrote made sense, never touched a comic book)

Wouldn't we need to do that to all DC pages then tho?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Whether of not DC writers are unconcerned with battleboarding is a meaningless argument, and it can be used to justify high ratings too. Most of the arguments thrown against are built on authority and not factual evidence. It comes from the person personally believing in a lower version more over the opposite and ignoring all contrary evidence.

 

[First_Witch]

Wouldn't we need to do that to all DC pages then tho?

Arent we doing something similar with Superman? Where we have different profiles for him depending on media and era(?)?

Because, in all honesty, how we treat DC (And probably Marvel) has always confused me. Why ARE we actually hamfisting versions with wildly different interpretations into singular profiles? I always heard of those insane scaling problems due to different writers, but why are we scaling characters between different characters like this in the first place?

The problem at hand is most definitly more nuanced than that, else SOMEONE would have brought up a solution like that already. As a filthy weeb who never came closer to a DC/Marvel book than 5 meters, all im seeing is an attempt to fix a ship with paper and bandages and trying to sail instead of just building it anew from the ground up.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

This would create a terrible precedent and its nonsense. You are acting like one story isn't canon to another when they absolutely are simply because you cannot reconcile outliers.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally favour using different statistics keys based on different writer cosmologies for relevant cosmic entity characters, yes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I personally favour using different statistics keys based on different writer cosmologies for relevant cosmic entity characters, yes.

I don't. And you just apply this to comics and not other similarly long-running verses with hundreds of writers out of bias. Imagine trying to apply this to Dr. Who. Ridiculous.

 

[Antvasima]

Can you permanently stop with the toxicity and false accusations please? I am not your wastebasket, and do not know Doctor Who very well. I liked the David Tenant version, and found what I saw of the rest boring, and that's it.

That said, there is nowhere near the sheer enormity of different interpretations for Doctor Who as for Marvel and DC, given the much lesser amount of material and writers, but I have been told that it also suffers from serious continuity inconsistencies.

 

[Antvasima]

It is very late where I live in any case, and I have to go to sleep now.

 

[First_Witch]

This would create a terrible precedent and its nonsense. You are acting like one story isn't canon to another when they absolutely are simply because you cannot reconcile outliers.

Sorry Matt, but how many verses do you think will try to bandwagon off of changes like that happening to DC and Marvel? Both of those franchises clearly need the special treatment, we have barely anything close to their scope. Literally 99% of fiction on this website are simple series, shows and books spanning over a couple hour of fiction, written by one author. You DONT NEED anything more than 1 profile per character in those cases.

Like, obviously im not saying to chop them into Keys for EVERY author that has worked on Supes. If there is a contiuity there is a continuity, cant change that. But let me remind you that we ARE already doing something similar with different adaption of the SAME story like Dragon Ball etc. Its not the same cookie cut issue, but it is similar in nature enough. No one is opposed to that, why should they? More accurate profiles are possible this way.

 

[Ghost59]

Well, it's certainly not incorrect, since I've objectively substantiated it with nearly 20 direct statements from DC's highest cosmic beings. As far as the word "biased" is concerned, it seems the issue is that you simply don't know what the word bias means.



Then post the scans of those statements? Likewise, Perpetua is the topic here, and her own description of her multiverse is that it has a finite 52 universes. Further, the 52 universes aren't "local" the multiverse itself is what is called local. The 52 are called the "known" worlds in Multiversity, but that can be chalked up to the Monitors refraining from concluding there were no more worlds even though they could only find 52. Perpetua rules the Multiverse, so she would know about all of them.


Again, a vague reference to some mountain of evidence that has not yet been provided. Countless statements? The only one that has ever been provided is Batman's statement, which is wrong in calling it platonic which already puts its validity into question. Likewise, cool your temper, there's no need to get emotional if the evidence is firmly on your side, as you claim it is.


First, the world is decidedly not Platonic. Platonism emphasizes two main characteristics of it's concepts are that they are eternal and unchanging. This is not the case for any realm or being in the Sphere, as they were created by either Perpetua or belief itself, and they've changed over time in the case of the New Gods, being recreated by Nix. Further, it's one thing to "look" physical and another for interactions to be based on strictly physical concepts, for physical characters to visit the realm willy nilly.and fight allegedly metaphysical beings, and for the gods of these realms themselves to describe the realms in physical terms. This cannot be overridden by one single character statement or even a handful of them.



I mean you can if you want, but you need to prove this is the case in DC comics. This is a purely fictional concept, therefore it's erroneous to apply a hard rule across all verses for how it works. In DC, decidedly not-universal characters have affected and destroyed timelines within a single universe, proving it does not work that way in DC.


On what basis is it an outlier for the league rather than a long series of antifeats for the Gods? We can't just call feats we don't like outliers. Many many instances exist of characters going to the Sphere and defeating its natives.



The canon creator of Hypertime literally debunks this notion on panel. The number of universes exists independent of Hypertime, proving the cosmologies do not stay forever within Hypertime after being destroyed.

This is further confirmed in the fight between Perpetua and TDK. The imminent end of the multiverse results in the hypertime possibilities dying out, which wouldn't be the case if hypertime maintained the universes despite their destruction in-verse. If it was ever the case, it's clearly been retconned on panel.

He's above hypertime in the sense that his perception of the multiverse isn't limited to a single timeline, which means his perception of the multiverse collapsing to 52 universes accounts for the notion that Hypertime keeps the cosmology structures, and debunks it.

Further, Hypertime doesn't contain the multiverse, hypertime is the 4th dimension of the multiverse.


I would genuinely be hard pressed to support the argument that there is any reality-fiction difference presence in DC. Perpetua and the hands are from the Overvoid, yet clearly consider the lowest beings in DC as "real" and not fictional. The Overvoid literally encroached upon the multiverse when the Source Wall came down, which makes the idea that it is "real" to a "fictional" multiverse difficult to support.


Realms from the Sphere and above have likewise decidedly been retconned. There's no reason to think they are immune to it. The Perpetua storyline made a huge retcon to the Sphere, establishing its origin as a realm Perpetua created, first inhabited by the embodiment of the Collective Unconscious -- Hecate -- which was then populated solely by religions and belief systems. Retcons happen at every single level.


Absolutely agree, and for a good reason. DC writers are absolutely unconcerned with battle boarding or making sure high tiers are "competitive" against the more abstract works of fiction. Concept control and metaphysics quickly become incoherent and unworkable within a story that involves regular physical beings which is one of the reasons why Final Crisis (and much of Morrison's cosmology stories) are considered a slog to read.

A heavy level of emotion is brought to the table by battleboarding fans who are eager for their verse's "top dogs" to be competitive at tiers 0, 1, and 2, even if it requires ignoring tons of evidence to the contrary, and piecing together a handful of character statements across collective decades of continuity and dozens of writers, flying in the face of actual feats, storylines, and well established power systems in the comics.

Again, the notion that DC actually had infinite universes makes Perpetua's storyline incoherent, and if she can destroy infinite universes it makes the fact that she was destroying them one by one, and the fact that she herself said she couldn't, incoherent.

So why fight so hard? It's this simple: the comic both showed us and told us that Perpetua is universal to low multi-universal at best. Who cares if she can fight 3812 or not? Who cares if she can fight The One Above All? Who cares if she can beat Yog-Sothoth? Her storyline is good. That's why we read the comics.

Nice hate bonner

 

[Xearsay]

I would say because she has other displays of power that go higher than this. However you completely disagree with that. So I might as well drop this and address that first.

How is Mxy not Multiversal?

I’m pretty sure a universal being cannot threaten the whole multiverse during a fight.

Lol here we go again. You never proved the notion was retconned. You just spammed a bunch of scans mentioning 52 universes as if that removes them from contextually being the 52 known universes.

 

[Xearsay]

Can you permanently stop with the toxicity and false accusations please? I am not your wastebasket, and do not know Doctor Who very well. I liked the David Tenant version, and found what I saw of the rest boring, and that's it.

That said, there is nowhere near the sheer enormity of different interpretations for Doctor Who as for Marvel and DC, given the much lesser amount of material and writers, but I have been told that it also suffers from serious continuity inconsistencies.

You’ve been saying this the whole thread and provided literally no evidence to support it.

 

[Sera_EX]

I do not see how DC's continuity issues have anything to do with absurdly downscaling Perpetua to Low 2-C.

 

[Hasty12345]

I disagree with splitting up the works.

Just because different writers have different interpretations, doesn't mean they randomly become non-canon to one another to the point of requiring different profiles.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Sorry Matt, but how many verses do you think will try to bandwagon off of changes like that happening to DC and Marvel? Both of those franchises clearly need the special treatment, we have barely anything close to their scope. Literally 99% of fiction on this website are simple series, shows and books spanning over a couple hour of fiction, written by one author. You DONT NEED anything more than 1 profile per character in those cases.

I disagree, several verses that have been going on for decades are just as inconsistent.