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Perpetua Downgrade

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San-Kakarot said:
They got nothing, when is the downgrade happening?
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You know, your impatience and your inability to bring any meaningful points besides just hopping on the backs of others, isn't making you look very good. If I were you I wouldn't keep pushing my luck and rushing the thread.
 
ShivaShakti said:
You know, your impatience and your inability to bring any meaningful points besides just hopping on the backs of others, isn't making you look very good. If I were you I wouldn't keep pushing my luck and rushing the thread.
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I said I would bring someone her he is.
 
NotoriouSoda said:
You’re literally the most biased person in this entire thread, there will be no downgrade because 90% of people here disagree with the downgrades
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He has debunked all their desperate attempts to uphold the current tier. It's clear that amped Perpetua is High 3-A and the brothers massively downscale to that 3-B.
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
He has plenty of 2-A feats in Crisis from his wave rippling through every universe at every point in time
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I already addressed this in like, my 4th comment:

Anti-Monitor wasn't, at his base, able to instantly destroy infinite universes. Each universe that was destroyed increased his power, which only happened because Positive Matter and Anti-Matter can't exist together. It was because he tried to observe creation that anti-matter leaked into the positive matter multiverse:

OOEtfNA.png




voibiyU.png



XC4pjqO.png


And the thing is, even after the Antimatter wave destroyed all but five universes, in actual combat Anti-Monitor still had trouble contending with the heroes, which included two Supermans, Uncle Sam, Blue Beetle, and a couple of others.

So the evidence is quite clear, even during COIE Anti-Monitor does not fit the bill of 2-A, the Antimatter wave accomplished a pseudo 2-A feat, but that was due to the unique properties of positive matter and anti-matter not being able to coexist. In a fight, this "2-A" being was forced to flee by Supergirl.

He had a starlight collector which was forcing the remaining 5 universes together, and because positive matter and antimatter cant exist together, they would've been destroyed. Once they destroyed the machine, Anti-Monitor's plans were ruined. Anti-Monitor responded to this by creating an anti-matter cannon to finish off the last 5 universes, which makes no sense if he is 2-A, since he could just do it himself instantly.

This proves that Hypertime exists on an ontologically superior level to the lower level of existence where the universes are contained.
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How does it prove that? Explain your reasoning.

Matthew_Schroeder said:
your mountain of evidence is that they are depicted as looking three-dimensional because they exist in media made by three-dimensional people
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This was never my argument whatsoever. It was described in strictly physical terms and often took place in strictly physical contexts with physical concepts at play. Likewise, many physical characters have gone to the Sphere and hurt or even killed it's inhabitants.

Xearsay said:
1) She’s destroying 52 and then reshaping the universe. Already solidified by BWL.
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Again, what point are you trying to make here? This piece of information disproves your theory.

Xearsay said:
2) Rementioning the 52 universes being only the known universes proves nothing when Multiversity already solidifies the notion.
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Again, you have failed to address my argument. Why would she care which universes are known or not, and why would she refer to the multiverse in such terms? And again, if the Monitors are referring to these worlds as "known" why wouldn't Perpetua if that were the case?

Xearsay said:
3) Can you post the statement? Also I didn’t strawman you. You directly tried to imply that Perpetuas actions weren’t something to concern over.
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I did not, that's a strawman. And I've posted the statement like 4 different times in this thread alone, and it's in the OP.

Xearsay said:
Her victory will occur. Once she finishes destroying the 52 she’ll remake everything else. Directly said by the BWL.
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Again, this means the multiverse is not infinite. There is no reason she would need to destroy 52/infinity universes to accomplish her goal. She is wiping out all 52 that exist, which was stated multiple times. It was said directly on panel that there were only 6 left.
 
NotoriouSoda said:
You’re literally the most biased person in this entire thread, there will be no downgrade because 90% of people here disagree with the downgrades
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There will be no downgrade because people disagree despite the thread clearly having solid logical basis? Might as well make Goku tier 0 because I am sure people will agree with it
 
I'm going to say that while this might not be a rule violation, i'm sus as hell of this thread considering San-Kakarot's history and the fact he was supposedly the one who brought the OP to come downgrade the thread. I even checked the OP's profile, and literally this and one other thread having to do with Rick and Morty, nothing else. This thread does not seem to be made in good faith at all.
 
Xearsay said:
Facts. The only other person who agreed was Ant who gave 0 evidence for any of his arguments.
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For real, I’m so tired of the argument “Well I read a ton of comics and Consistency matters!” Like it stops discussion and upgrades for both Marvel and Dc
 
Btw for obvious reasons, I disagree with the thread. I find the arguments to be thus far quite weak, not to mention the "These metaphysical realms are designed like cities" point is very questionable.
 
Darksmash said:
There will be no downgrade because people disagree despite the thread clearly having solid logical basis?
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Yeah it's not like we're taking a vote lmao. That would literally just result in dedicated fandoms dictating upgrades unilaterally. The better evidence and logical reasoning should prevail, as determined by the mods.
 
Wait, wasn't the reason the AM had to destroy the Universes one by one was because of his brother? Like the Monitor himself is stated (even on our page) to be powered by the matter of infinite universes flowing through him, and that AM destroying them over time was gaining him even more power but slowing draining the Monitors.

Fair enough, i may be remembering wrong (I will do a complete redo of COIE in case i'm completely wrong before i comment on this again) but it seems to me the story implies that the Monitor was keeping the AM at bay and the AM destroyed the Positive Universes to slowly gain power over the Monitor himself. But the Monitor was matched 1v1 with AM when he was powered by the power of infinite universes. So shouldn't that alone show that AM was at least 2-A in base form?
 
No it doesn’t because destroying the 52 known universes =/= destroying the infinite universes.

And you’ve failed to address my response. Why would we need Perpetua to remention the 52 universes only being the known universes when Multiversity already solidifies the notion?

Theres 0 statements by Alpheus in your OP. Only by Perpetua who I’m assuming you’re mistaking for Alpheus when referencing the statement.

Also references to the 52 known universes does not prove the amount of universes in the whole multiverse is finite. We already went over this. Also there is a reason. She needs to make her apex army that will overthrow her brothers and sisters.
 
Also, and i mean no disrespect, but i think @Ant acting like there is no bias here is a bit suspect. Ant, you have repeatedly gone against DC upgrades and outright told me certain characters wouldn't reach certain tiers because you don't feel they SHOULD be there. You've shut down threads on me mid discussion, only for Eficiente to open them up just to get the last word in, then closing them again before i had a chance to discuss these matters any further with him.

Multiple people talking about their dislike of new DC comics or new characters, in a downgrade thread of all places, is absolutely bonkers and unneeded. We don't need to hear why you like or dislike a character in this thread, that has nothing to do with what tier they should be or why you're arguing against them, it seems pretty suspect that a lot of people in this thread seem to have a weird distaste for DC or are outright giddy to see it downgraded for very personal reasons.

There being a genuine argument against downgrading DC is fine, whatever, but if you're gonna act professional you need to stop letting your personal feelings for DC get in the way of your judgement, on both sides. I don't agree with Matt on a lot of things, and i'm sure he doesn't agree with me either, plus i think he's too combative at times... but in my opinion, he's right with their being an aura of bias in the downgrades being presented.
 
@Deagonx He has presented clear evidence that amped Perpetua by the Source could only destroy one universe at a time. Yet, somehow she has a Low 1-C rating and the 1-A rating is ridiculous.
 
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This is the guy who made a meme-tier Rick and Morty thread where he said Rick Sanchez had "expressed feats beyond cosmic armor superman". This guy is not a fan of DC like he is pretending to be here, he is intentionally trying to downplay as much out of personal bias. Potentially even trolling.
 
I'm going to point out a few discrepancies in the OP's interpretations really quickly.

So one of his prevalent points was "This realm cant be tier 2 or tier 1 because its not abstract enough" pretty much. He claims that a realm with buildings and humanoids in it or anything resembling any form of human or otherwise non-abstract architecture isn't even close to a metaphysical realm, and caps at 3-D.

This shows me that the OP doesn't have a full grasp of how the tiering system actually works.

Not to mention this thread: https://vsbattles.com/threads/rick-sanchez-rick-and-morty-upgrade.82829/

Normally I wouldn't bring up past stuff statements like this, but keep in mind this is the only other thread he's made, and the discrepancies of him not really understanding the tiering system show here. He is using 4th wall breaks and meta fiction showings to justify Rick and Morty being above beings such as Azathoth and Featherine, with no other evidence to suggest this that actually applies and appeals to the tiering system we use.

I get the impression that OP isn't someone who really knows what the tiering system is and what it entails or how we use it.
 
Xearsay said:
No it doesn’t because destroying the 52 known universes =/= destroying the infinite universes.
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Again, this breaks the story. Why would she only need to destroy 52 of infinite universes to reshape the multiverse?

Xearsay said:
Why would we need Perpetua to remention the 52 universes only being the known universes when Multiversity already solidifies the notion?
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This question is not a response to the problem of "why would Perpetua care which universes are known or not?" And "why would she refer to the multiverse in such terms?"

Xearsay said:
Theres 0 statements by Alpheus in your OP.
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Yes there is, it is literally in the first set of scans, 3rd from the bottom.

Xearsay said:
Also references to the 52 known universes does not prove the amount of universes in the whole multiverse is finite.
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Except there are no references to 52 "known" universes in the story. That phrase was only ever used in Multiversity and doesn't apply to Death Metal automatically without actual reasoning as to why Perpetua or Alpheus would refer to the multiverse by which universes are "known" or not.

ShivaShakti said:
I mean... You kinda were going along with his comments just a few minutes ago?
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I responded to a comment about 1 character being stronger than another and confirmed it, that's not the same as what I was asking him to stop.
Matthew_Schroeder said:
This is the guy who
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This is textbook ad-hominem.

ShivaShakti said:
So one of his prevalent points was "This realm cant be tier 2 or tier 1 because its not abstract enough" pretty much. He claims that a realm with buildings and humanoids in it or anything resembling any form of human or otherwise non-abstract architecture isn't even close to a metaphysical realm, and caps at 3-D.
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This is a strawman and a misrepresentation of my argument. I never claimed that a realm with buildings and humanoids in it couldn't be metaphysical. What comment did I say such a thing in?
ShivaShakti said:
I'm going to point out a few discrepancies in the OP's interpretations really quickly.
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Your discrepancies were 1 single misrepresentation of my arguments and bringing up that I made a joke thread 8 months ago, arguing for a "-1 tier" and liking my own comments.

If you don't mind, lets actually just focus on the argument at hand. Saying I have sinister intentions or bias is meaningless, because I have no way of disproving them, nor would anyone else in my circumstance, and again: If my arguments are sound, then my intentions are irrelevant. If they are not, explain why they arent.
 
So, I skimmed through this for a bit.

The collapse of the multiverse was due to a singularity/black hole at the center, not because of the presence of Darkseid's true form. That was damaging the multiverse and he was trying to pull the multiverse into the black hole, but it wasn't simply that the Multiverse couldn't handle his truee form.
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That isn't very relevant, considering Darkseid's fall is still stated and shown to have damaged the structure of the Orrery of Worlds. Said structure itself contains the Bleedspace, which is explicitly defined in Multiversity as a 5-dimensional membrane in which all of the universes are embedded, and, if we go by the interpretation that Snyder's Dimensions are separate from physical dimensions, could also feasibly contain Hypertime, too. Brief reminder here that the basic definition of Hypertime is that it is the 3-dimensional analogue of time (Which would intermingle with three-dimensional space to form a six-dimensional reality, overall), which we would have to use, given how I've seen you and a few others talking about prioritizing Morrison's cosmology over others.

By extension, the very fact that Perpetua and The Darkest Knight's battle was threatening to destroy Bleedspace should already tell you that them being only 2-C is pretty ridiculous. I'd also like to point out that the scans you've showed that supposedly say that Perpetua creating the Multiverse was only possible through a one-time amp don't actually support that at all: They just state that she was supposed to dissolve back into The Source, and thus, return the power that was given to her to its origin, something which she refused to do, unlike the other Hands; if anything, they imply that she kept her power instead.

Again, I asked for evidence of this and you did not provide any, so I'll just repeat the earlier response:

Again, a vague reference to some mountain of evidence that has not yet been provided. Countless statements? The only one that has ever been provided is Batman's statement, which is wrong in calling it platonic which already puts its validity into question.
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There's plenty of it, my dude. Grant Morrison's own run of Justice League repeatedly describes Heaven as being a higher plane of existence that completely transcends the world of matter, to the point that the Angels inhabiting it refer to the latter as being a book, and can only exist within it by modifying their vibrational frequency so it is the same as the normal world's.

Not to mention that, in the same run, Wonderworld is described as residing in the outermost perimeter of space and time, which is very consistent with the Map of the Multiverse later depicting it as standing at the edge of Bleedspace, beyond which there are only metaphysical realms, like the Sphere of the Gods and the Monitor Sphere. And, since you seem to be speaking from a place of ignorance regarding the Tiering System in general: Existing on a higher level of reality beyond space and time is Low 1-C, at absolute minimum.

Likewise, you failed to address thee fact that they are in fact, consistently portrayed as physical, with numerous statements and interactions that emphasize physicality.
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That is then contradicted by Final Crisis itself, where Libra could only reach Apokolips by being so overloaded with power that he transcended his own physical form and ended up landing in there. Not to mention the very concept of the Speedforce Wall being the limit of matter and physicality in general, with everything beyond that being conceptual space made 100% of information.
 
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Deagonx said:
This is a strawman and a misrepresentation of my argument. I never claimed that a realm with buildings and humanoids in it couldn't be metaphysical. What comment did I say such a thing in?
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"To be clear, most realms in the Sphere of the Gods are not metaphysical.

Apokolips: The planet of the elder gods was described as dwarfing galaxies, which is only possible if it is physical.

New Genesis: The cities are described as a thousand miles wide.

Apokolips: Supergirl went to Apokolips without a boom tube and was smaller than Granny Goodness as a result, maintaining her original physical size.

Heaven: A lilim drops a block of marble on an angel, killing him, showing physical properties like gravity and impact."

This is what you said.

You're saying these realms with descriptions of size can't be metaphysical. Apparently "dwarfing galaxies" is only possible when its physical, and then use "this realm has gravity and impact in it" therefore it can't be abstract or metaphysical.

It's not a strawman. Your argument comes up to "these realms aren't abstract enough". This would be like saying "Oh the Black Lodge in Twin Peaks is just a bunch of rooms and curtains so it can't be Low 1-A."
 
Deagonx said:
Your discrepancies were 1 single misrepresentation of my arguments and bringing up that I made a joke thread 8 months ago, arguing for a "-1 tier" and liking my own comments.
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Okay in that thread you were "Dead serious mate" but now its a joke? Again I won't use it much here as its in the past, but i'm still suspicious of you.
 
I said this super earlier but now that all the sane people that don’t have a hate boner for DC are hear and commented, can we please close this thread.
 
After reading through this thread and some of the replies (christ this thread's a shitshow), I'll have to disagree with the downgrade to low 2-C/2-C. Ultima brought up some pretty good points about the Sphere of Gods being transcendent of the normal multiverse as well as Perpetua's scaling.
 
Deagonx said:
Again, this breaks the story. Why would she only need to destroy 52 of infinite universes to reshape the multiverse?
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It was so she could make her army of Apex predators.

Deagonx said:
This question is not a response to the problem of "why would Perpetua care which universes are known or not?" And "why would she refer to the multiverse in such terms?"
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Because they’re the ones we know? Why would the comic need to show us Perpetua turning an infinite amount of universes into apex predators? That’s absurd.

Whether she references them as the known universes or not adds nothing as the 52 universes contextually being only the known universes was already solidified in the past.
Deagonx said:
Except there are no references to 52 "known" universes in the story. That phrase was only ever used in Multiversity and doesn't apply to Death Metal automatically without actual reasoning as to why Perpetua or Alpheus would refer to the multiverse by which universes are "known" or not.
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There doesn't need to be. It was already referenced in the past as I've already said FOR THE 50TH TIME.

8gIu3Oe.jpg
 
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