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Also isn't the single case?
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I disagree, several verses that have been going on for decades are just as inconsistent.
It's not meaningless, you simply misunderstood what I was conveying with it. It wasn't meant to be an argument at all.Whether of not DC writers are unconcerned with battleboarding is a meaningless argument
Not factual evidence? I literally posted 13 scans of characters saying there were 52 universes. I have not been shown very good contrary evidence particularly as it pertains to Perpetua. The entire basis for ignoring these scans is a single vague character statement from Multiversity saying the "local multiverse" (which is the DC Multiverse) had "52 known worlds." It never said that it had infinite unknown worlds, and even if it had that has clearly been retconned as demonstrated, since there's no reason why Perpetua or any other cosmic being would focus on the worlds "known" rather than all of them, especially as it pertains to Perpetua's storyline and goal, it's just nonsense.Most of the arguments thrown against are built on authority and not factual evidence. It comes from the person personally believing in a lower version more over the opposite and ignoring all contrary evidence.
It's not a matter of disagreement, she simply doesn't. Her best feat is "threatening" a collective six universes in tandem with TDK. Infinity has literally never been in the conversation.I would say because she has other displays of power that go higher than this. However you completely disagree with that.
You repeatedly failed to respond or address the logical error here.You never proved the notion was retconned. You just spammed a bunch of scans mentioning 52 universes as if that removes them from contextually being the 52 known universes.
The question becomes which interpretation should dictate the profile? The most recent? Or the one from the original writer? In either case this places Perpetua at 2-C, since the most recent canon and Perpetua's writer have placed her in the comics at 2-C.Just because different writers have different interpretations, doesn't mean they randomly become non-canon to one another to the point of requiring different profiles.
The issue isn't solely inconsistency, because with a single author you can more comfortably assume that retcons occur without issue. With multiple writers referencing different cosmology models overlapping, it becomes far messier.I disagree, several verses that have been going on for decades are just as inconsistent.
Worth noting that this is impossible if there are actually infinite universes, since she destroyed them one by one.The whole goal of Perpetua was to destroy every universe that believe in heroism and transform the population of the crueler universes into Apex Predators, and then rearrange the Multiverse that would have healed and fortified in a shape where evil is the natural order.
It really doesn't matter that Scott said this, since "nearly full power" being universal absolutely precludes "full power" being infinite or significantly more, because that would mean she wasn't "nearly full power." If she can even affect 1000 universes (the requirement for 2-B) at full power, then being universe means she is not "nearly full power."Even if she's nearly at full power, she's not at full power. So, there's no contradiction at all. Scott Snyder didn't deny that full power Perpetua could blow every universe up when Imaginary Axis asked on if Perpetua, when she was at full power, would theoretically be able to do that, but we just didn't see that because she was weakened. Scott Snyder replied: "That's the idea".
Well, your scans don't really support your point.Anyway, her full power should scale to her race since they can create and destroy and rearrange a Multiverse.
It is. What a writer cares about power levels is irrelevant to the story itself.It's not meaningless, you simply misunderstood what I was conveying with it. It wasn't meant to be an argument at all.
While also ignoring the also canonical clarifications that there are in fact infinite. Because of favoritism.Not factual evidence? I literally posted 13 scans of characters saying there were 52 universes. I have not been shown very good contrary evidence particularly as it pertains to Perpetua. The entire basis for ignoring these scans is a single vague character statement from Multiversity saying the "local multiverse" (which is the DC Multiverse) had "52 known worlds." It never said that it had infinite unknown worlds, and even if it had that has clearly been retconned as demonstrated, since there's no reason why Perpetua or any other cosmic being would focus on the worlds "known" rather than all of them, especially as it pertains to Perpetua's storyline and goal, it's just nonsense.
It's only messy to you and Ant because you are favoritist towards the lowest possible interpretation. You literally think Mr. Mxyzptlk isn't even universal it seems considering you ignore stuff from the very story you claim to love and analyze.The issue isn't solely inconsistency, because with a single author you can more comfortably assume that retcons occur without issue. With multiple writers referencing different cosmology models overlapping, it becomes far messier.
Ok i just want to address this real quick, how is this being a tie on comic make it throwaway? It's literally Rip being used as the author surrogate to outright tell the reader that while many believe that there are 52 Universes, the truth is that they are ill-informed and in reality, there are infinite worlds. This doesn't contradict them mentioning the 52 limit, it just shows that the actual characters can be misinformed or not understand the endless/infinite nature of the Multiverse. Nothing about what he said is presented as a joke at the time, he's been dead serious about the infinite universes line, otherwise why even bring up the 52 worlds to begin with.That scan is a tie-in comic for a cartoon movie, not something that was printed as part of a proper DC story. Nonetheless, one throwaway joke from a cartoon's tie-in comic would not override 52, Final Crisis, Countdown, Justice League, and Death Metal.
Again, you have misunderstood what I said. You are attacking a strawman. I'm not saying what they care about is important to understanding the story or to scaling them.It is. What a writer cares about power levels is irrelevant to the story itself.
Again, where are these clarifications? And what is your argument that they should be taken over the dozens of statements made in Perpetua's own storyline? Likewise, how do you resolve the narrative conflicts that such an interpretation creates for Perpetua's storyline? Such as:While also ignoring the also canonical clarifications that there are in fact infinite. Because of favoritism.
It's messy no matter which interpretation you have, that's just a fact. Feeling confident in your interpretation doesn't make the situation less messy.It's only messy to you and Ant because you are favoritist towards the lowest possible interpretation.
Because it's a tie-in to a cartoon movie. Likewise, this single line from a 2006 tie in comic for a straight-to-video movie should not be taken over what the Monitors, World Forger, Rip Hunter himself in a later storyline, and Perpetua say about the multiverse.Ok i just want to address this real quick, how is this being a tie on comic make it throwaway? It's literally Rip being used as the author surrogate to outright tell the reader that while many believe that there are 52 Universes, the truth is that they are ill-informed and in reality, there are infinite worlds.
There have been limited other instances, but there's little reason to use them for Perpetua when in Perpetua's storyline she herself acknowledges the number as 52.I mean outright saying "it doesn't count" when there have been other instances of "endless" worlds and infinite worlds and 52 worlds itself ain't even consistent as we've shown with worlds that exist outside the 52 universe limit.
I mean, yes? Supergirl literally beat the shit out of Anti-Monitor. Goku is significantly more powerful than Supergirl.If Perpetua will amped can only destroy one universe at a time and here children had to combine to match her power. That would make Anti-Monitor and the other 3-B. Damn, that means base Goku>>>Anti-Monitor.
Explain why?Yeah I don’t want to be the guy but this entire thread was literally a big waste of time.
Doesn't matter fiction can be illogical and I've seen verses where infinite universes are destroyed one by one like in Crisis on Infinite Earths.1) If the multiverse is infinite, her demonstrated process of destroying them one by one would've literally lasted forever, and accomplished absolutely nothing.
Complete mask off, amazing. The OP is biased towards Dragon Ball and wants to downgrade DC just for favoritism.I mean, yes? Supergirl literally beat the shit out of Anti-Monitor. Goku is significantly more powerful than Supergirl.
Then he is biased and his opinion shouldn't be credited whatsoever.He seems to agree to downgrade Anti-Monitor to 3-B and the brothers.
Also, what are all your arguments for her and here sons to stay at that tier?Then he is biased and his opinion shouldn't be credited whatsoever.
So you are openly admitting your position is illogical? That makes this easier. The only reason to pick an illogical explanation over a logical one is bias. Therefore, you are biased and your opinion shouldn't be credited whatsoever, according to yourself.Doesn't matter fiction can be illogical
This is because the Starlight Collector the Anti-Monitor created was pulling all of the universes (which share a physical plane, vibrating at different frequencies) together to the Anti-Matter universe, which was collapsing them due to the properties of Anti-Matter and Positive Matter. Once the starlight collector was destroyed, he had to create an anti-matter cannon for the remaining five universes.I've seen verses where infinite universes are destroyed one by one like in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
Weak is relative, but since he got worked by Supergirl, he certainly is relative to any universal being.But I just know you're one of those broads who think the COIE Anti-Monitor is weak too...
Your attempts to accuse me of being biased are sad and meaningless. Even if I was biased towards Dragon Ball for some reason, bias does not matter when you have incontrovertible evidence. Motivations are meaningless if the argument is backed by evidence, and you have repeatedly failed to address the evidence and have not provided any of your own.Complete mask off, amazing. The OP is biased towards Dragon Ball and wants to downgrade DC just for favoritism.
Because I'm not interested in Dragon Ball, don't know that much about it, and don't know or care what Goku is rated at. All I know is he reached Universal, which Anti-Monitor hasn't.Why don't you take your own standards and downgrade Dragon Ball to 5-B or 3-C at most since ever since Episode 12 there hasn't been a single universal feat that wasn't from Zeno?
No one's opinion should be credited, only logical arguments supported by clear evidence should be credited.Then he is biased and his opinion shouldn't be credited whatsoever.
Gotta learn tier 1 japanese firstIf you believe there's a double standard, go get those verses downgraded for the sake of consistency.
I mean aren't you literally the same person that made a thread calling to downgrade DC and Marvel Tier 1's with no evidence besides "Its wank trust me."If Perpetua will amped can only destroy one universe at a time and here children had to combine to match her power. That would make Anti-Monitor and the other 3-B. Damn, that means base Goku>>>Anti-Monitor.
1. Saying that DC is only 52 universes because of one story and acting like it should cancel out all the evidence that it has more in every other story is pure favoritism and cherry-picking. Dude is incapable of reconciling the fact that comics have multiple authors and this just happens.Also, what are all your arguments for her and here sons to stay at that tier?
I mean, if you want to be like that, the same Supergirl also scales to Pre-Crisis Superman, who directly has a feat we used in which he was able to restore "every timeline" and alternate earth that was destroyed by the Time Trapper in his fight against the Green Lanterns. Only reason said feat isn't considered at minimum 2-B to 2-A is because of some technicality, when in reality said feat could easily be seen as a 2-B to outright 2-A feat. Nobody even disagreed with said feats implementation, we just threw it away because we didn't like it.I mean, yes? Supergirl literally beat the shit out of Anti-Monitor. Goku is significantly more powerful than Supergirl.
It is because amped Perpetua by the Source could only destroy one universe at a time and which makes here High 3-A Amped Perpetua>The Ultra Monitor. So by feats the brothers are only 3-B.The Anti-Monitor is one of the clearest 2-A characters in fiction in the original Crisis I don't even know how you can say without a shred of irony that he isn't even universal.
damn thats crazyIt is because amped Perpetua by the Source could only destroy one universe at a time and which makes here High 3-A Amped Perpetua>The Ultra Monitor. So by feats the brothers are only 3-B.
I mean are we just going to throw out the fact that The Anti-Monitor was ******* over an infinite multiverse? I mean thats literally the name of the story arc "Crisis on Infinite Earths".It is because amped Perpetua by the Source could only destroy one universe at a time and which makes here High 3-A Amped Perpetua>The Ultra Monitor. So by feats the brothers are only 3-B.
What did they do?damn thats crazy
lets just ignore everything else that she, the world forger, the batman who laughs, and mr. mxy did in the comics written by the same writer
Supergirl took the Anti-Monitor off-guard for the first strike which had damaged his armor seriously. Anyway, Anti-Monitor was able to beat Pre-Crisis Superman quite easily before Supergirl's intervention.I mean, yes? Supergirl literally beat the shit out of Anti-Monitor. Goku is significantly more powerful than Supergirl.
Anti-Monitor has no 2-A feats it has been debunked and he has shown that base Anti-Monitor is consistently 3-B let alone 3-A @DeagonxI mean are we just going to throw out the fact that The Anti-Monitor was ******* over an infinite multiverse? I mean, that's literally the name of the story arc "Crisis on Infinite Earths".
I mean he literally does, you saying he has no 2-A feats is straight up just denying actual DC canon, considering said feat was kinda what the plot revolved around. Not to mention the fact he just stomped the **** out of Pre Crisis Supes who has 3-A to 2-C feats on his own.Anti-Monitor has no 2-A feats it has been debunked and he has shown that base Anti-Monitor is consistently 3-B let alone 3-A @Deagonx
Already wrong. I posted scans from several stories. Namely:1. Saying that DC is only 52 universes because of one story
Again, this is an unsubstantiated claim. If the reality is that "infinite universes" is present in every other story, you would be able to substantiate with evidence. Yet, the evidence provided in the other downgrade thread was tremendously weak relying on vague "endless" statements that do not address the actual number of universes.acting like it should cancel out all the evidence that it has more in every other story
I have already debunked this notion earlier in the thread:Hypertime exists beyond the physical universes, regardless of their number. It also makes all cosmologies simultaneously true at the same time.
This simply isn't true and conflicts with how characters have interacted with Hypertime in the past as described above.It is structurally and entologically superior to the universes and is Low 1-C at a minimum.
This is the definition of beyond: at or to the further side of.The Sphere of the Gods exists beyond the Bleed which is 5th Dimensional at a minimum and is also said to contain the entire dimensional structure of the multiverse.
Again, I asked for evidence of this and you did not provide any, so I'll just repeat the earlier response:The Sphere of the Gods' realms are consistently described as abstract, metaphysical and portrayed as higher-dimensional, with Heaven, Olympus, Apokolips, New Genesis, Dream, etc all existing outside of space and time and the physical universes.
Evidence you've repeatedly failed to provide.We are actually being super conservative with our current ratings for DC characters because of people's inability to let go of their preconceptions and accept factual evidance.
Again, your level of outrage is not a logical argument. I don't care how outrageous you find a claim, if it's backed up with clear evidence, then it doesn't matter how surprised you are. Anti-Matter did not use his own power to destroy universes, this is evident in the final parts of COIE where the Starlight Collector is destroyed, and he has to build an anti-matter cannon to try to destroy the remaining 5 universes. If he were 2-A, this storyline becomes incoherent, as he has no reason to build some contraption to accomplish something which, by your account, he should be able to do with a snap of his fingers.The Anti-Monitor is one of the clearest 2-A characters in fiction in the original Crisis I don't even know how you can say without a shred of irony that he isn't even universal.
And?1) it’s directly said by BWL that after she finishes destroying the 52 she’ll remake the rest of the universe.
Once again, you have failed to address the logical errors.2) Perpetua doesn’t have to remention the 52 universes being only the known universes for us to know that. Multiversity already solidifies this.
You are attacking a strawman, no one said this. I said the urgency disappears because Perpetua's victory will never occur, since she's trying to destroy infinity 1 by 1.3) Did you really just say a super celestials destroying the 52 known worlds so she can reshape the multiverse after isn’t something to talk or worry about? LOL.
There's no real reason Supergirl should be able to damage a 1-C being's armor at all. Mind you, this is the main team they sent for Anti-Monitor.Supergirl took the Anti-Monitor off-guard for the first strike which had damaged his armor seriously.
I am not. You just haven't read COIE. I already provided the explanation:I mean he literally does, you saying he has no 2-A feats is straight up just denying actual DC canon
Pre-Crisis Superman got destroyed by a fraction of the force of the Big Bang which is a 3-B feat. Also, the Anti -Monitor feat is consistent with 3-B.I mean he literally does, you say he has no 2-A feats is straight up just denying actual DC canon, considering said the feat was kinda what the plot revolved around. Not to mention the fact he just stomped the **** out of Pre Crisis Supes who has 3-A to 2-C feats of his own.
Yeah, and, again. Supergirl was literally throwing everything at Anti-Monitor in the fight of her life and AM still got one good shot on her and demolished her. All she did was destroy his body, which we've seen with Wally's fight with a stronger AM doesn't mean they're defeated.Supergirl took the Anti-Monitor off-guard for the first strike which had damaged his armor seriously. Anyway, Anti-Monitor was able to beat Pre-Crisis Superman quite easily before Supergirl's intervention.
He has plenty of 2-A feats in Crisis from his wave rippling through every universe at every point in time to him erasing every universe in the multiverse at every moment in history to him gaining the power to destroy the entire multiverse and remake it in one shot and clashing with full-power Spectre.Anti-Monitor has no 2-A feats it has been debunked and he has shown that base Anti-Monitor is consistently 3-B let alone 3-A @Deagonx
This proves that Hypertime exists on an ontologically superior level to the lower level of existence where the universes are contained.The canon creator of Hypertime literally debunks this notion on panel. The number of universes exists independent of Hypertime, proving the cosmologies do not stay forever within Hypertime after being destroyed.
your mountain of evidence is that they are depicted as looking three-dimensional because they exist in media made by three-dimensional people meant to be consumed by other people.Again, a vague reference to some mountain of evidence that has not yet been provided