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Also isn't the single case?
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Perpetua Downgrade
- Thread starter Deagonx
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Dragon Ball and Pokémon are notorious examples.
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I'm gonna respond more to this thread later, but i'm just laughing at the idea of having separate keys for every authors interpretation of the character/cosmology, or outright downplaying the entire verse because DC is inconsistent at times. Not just the cosmology or whatever, i mean why stop there, why not just do it for every iteration of the character ever made.
Like imagine having to maintain 20 keys for Superman, all with his powers and abilities on a per author basis, all because his backstory is a little inconsistent between issues or because a side character got retconned.
We can barely maintain the actual DC character pages NOW without them looking like a barren wasteland with huge gaps in abilities for guys like Pre-Crisis Supes, imagine having to split that character into 10 other keys then making sure to pinpoint the exact abilities only that version of the character has. I mean we don't want him to be inconsistent or anything. Pre-Crisis's cosmology changed so much and the Infinite Multiverse wasn't established to later on (because retcons don't exist) so we're gonna need to make sure his Universal feats are properly accounted for.
Like imagine having to maintain 20 keys for Superman, all with his powers and abilities on a per author basis, all because his backstory is a little inconsistent between issues or because a side character got retconned.
We can barely maintain the actual DC character pages NOW without them looking like a barren wasteland with huge gaps in abilities for guys like Pre-Crisis Supes, imagine having to split that character into 10 other keys then making sure to pinpoint the exact abilities only that version of the character has. I mean we don't want him to be inconsistent or anything. Pre-Crisis's cosmology changed so much and the Infinite Multiverse wasn't established to later on (because retcons don't exist) so we're gonna need to make sure his Universal feats are properly accounted for.
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Okay, this idea is based on my understanding of the events.
The whole goal of Perpetua was to destroy every universe that believe in heroism and transform the population of the crueler universes into Apex Predators, and then rearrange the Multiverse that would have healed and fortified in a shape where evil is the natural order.
Why doesn't she just rearrange the Multiverse in her image since she has all but a fraction of her power?
When Scott Snyder was asked by Imaginary Axis on why Perpetua couldn't destroy more than one universe at a time, was because she hadn't reached her full power which match with Perpetua's claiming about her power. Even if she's nearly at full power, she's not at full power. So, there's no contradiction at all. Scott Snyder didn't deny that full power Perpetua could blow every universe up when Imaginary Axis asked on if Perpetua, when she was at full power, would theoretically be able to do that, but we just didn't see that because she was weakened. Scott Snyder replied: "That's the idea".
As you already know, Perpetua was trusted with the Anti-Crisis Energy by the Source in order to create the Multiverse. After the creation her reality, she was meant to allow her energies to return to the Source and die, however she defied her function and chose to not return her energies as she was supposed to do. To my understanding, most or at least a large chunk of Anti-Crisis Energy was used during the creation of the Multiverse. After, she turned her back on the Anti-Crisis Energy and hoarded their dark opposite called Crisis Energy, born from people's fears, angers, and selfish desires according to Lex Luthor. She drawn Crisis Energy from the Apex Predators' faith in Doom and as they were the dominant race of Perpetua's reality, all universes sided with Doom. With this, Perpetua was powerful enough to alter the Core of Creation into something that was never meant to be.
Remember in Justice League #22 the power she hoarded was taken when she was sealed in the Source Wall. ''This wall will be the prision for the Totality of power you have selfishly hoarded'' During the Doom War arc, Perpetua regained most of her power ''All but a fraction of my power has been returned to me'' by drawing power from the Multiverse’s faith in Doom, though not all universes sided with Doom and as established multiple time, she needs to get rid of every universe that sides with Justice in order to remake the Multiverse. That's why she had never rechead her full power, the missing fraction of Perpetua's power is what she needs to have a TOTAL dominance over the Multiverse.
Anyway, her full power should scale to her race since they can create and destroy and rearrange a Multiverse. It wouldn't make any sense if all her species can do it, but not Perpetua, espacially when she was stated to be the most feared being, out of all her brothers and sisters.
The whole goal of Perpetua was to destroy every universe that believe in heroism and transform the population of the crueler universes into Apex Predators, and then rearrange the Multiverse that would have healed and fortified in a shape where evil is the natural order.
Why doesn't she just rearrange the Multiverse in her image since she has all but a fraction of her power?
When Scott Snyder was asked by Imaginary Axis on why Perpetua couldn't destroy more than one universe at a time, was because she hadn't reached her full power which match with Perpetua's claiming about her power. Even if she's nearly at full power, she's not at full power. So, there's no contradiction at all. Scott Snyder didn't deny that full power Perpetua could blow every universe up when Imaginary Axis asked on if Perpetua, when she was at full power, would theoretically be able to do that, but we just didn't see that because she was weakened. Scott Snyder replied: "That's the idea".
As you already know, Perpetua was trusted with the Anti-Crisis Energy by the Source in order to create the Multiverse. After the creation her reality, she was meant to allow her energies to return to the Source and die, however she defied her function and chose to not return her energies as she was supposed to do. To my understanding, most or at least a large chunk of Anti-Crisis Energy was used during the creation of the Multiverse. After, she turned her back on the Anti-Crisis Energy and hoarded their dark opposite called Crisis Energy, born from people's fears, angers, and selfish desires according to Lex Luthor. She drawn Crisis Energy from the Apex Predators' faith in Doom and as they were the dominant race of Perpetua's reality, all universes sided with Doom. With this, Perpetua was powerful enough to alter the Core of Creation into something that was never meant to be.
Remember in Justice League #22 the power she hoarded was taken when she was sealed in the Source Wall. ''This wall will be the prision for the Totality of power you have selfishly hoarded'' During the Doom War arc, Perpetua regained most of her power ''All but a fraction of my power has been returned to me'' by drawing power from the Multiverse’s faith in Doom, though not all universes sided with Doom and as established multiple time, she needs to get rid of every universe that sides with Justice in order to remake the Multiverse. That's why she had never rechead her full power, the missing fraction of Perpetua's power is what she needs to have a TOTAL dominance over the Multiverse.
Anyway, her full power should scale to her race since they can create and destroy and rearrange a Multiverse. It wouldn't make any sense if all her species can do it, but not Perpetua, espacially when she was stated to be the most feared being, out of all her brothers and sisters.
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It's not meaningless, you simply misunderstood what I was conveying with it. It wasn't meant to be an argument at all.
Not factual evidence? I literally posted 13 scans of characters saying there were 52 universes. I have not been shown very good contrary evidence particularly as it pertains to Perpetua. The entire basis for ignoring these scans is a single vague character statement from Multiversity saying the "local multiverse" (which is the DC Multiverse) had "52 known worlds." It never said that it had infinite unknown worlds, and even if it had that has clearly been retconned as demonstrated, since there's no reason why Perpetua or any other cosmic being would focus on the worlds "known" rather than all of them, especially as it pertains to Perpetua's storyline and goal, it's just nonsense.
It's not a matter of disagreement, she simply doesn't. Her best feat is "threatening" a collective six universes in tandem with TDK. Infinity has literally never been in the conversation.
You repeatedly failed to respond or address the logical error here.
1) If it's infinite, her demonstrated process of destroying them one by one would've literally lasted forever, and accomplished absolutely nothing.
2) There's no reason why Perpetua would mention which universes are "known" or not, and you've never provided a reason why she would.
3) This interpretation makes World Forger's statement incoherent, he said infinite universes reduced to 52 universes, this is absolutely nonsense if it stayed infinite the entire time, there would be no change and there would be absolutely nothing to talk about.
I proved the notion was retconned, and you had no counterarguments.
The question becomes which interpretation should dictate the profile? The most recent? Or the one from the original writer? In either case this places Perpetua at 2-C, since the most recent canon and Perpetua's writer have placed her in the comics at 2-C.
The issue isn't solely inconsistency, because with a single author you can more comfortably assume that retcons occur without issue. With multiple writers referencing different cosmology models overlapping, it becomes far messier.
Worth noting that this is impossible if there are actually infinite universes, since she destroyed them one by one.
It really doesn't matter that Scott said this, since "nearly full power" being universal absolutely precludes "full power" being infinite or significantly more, because that would mean she wasn't "nearly full power." If she can even affect 1000 universes (the requirement for 2-B) at full power, then being universe means she is not "nearly full power."
Since she clearly said she was in the comic, and that's what DC printed, Scott can't simply override that, since there's no room for ambiguity there.
Well, your scans don't really support your point.
The "Create" scan: This has already been accounted for, the ability to create the multiverse happens exactly how you stated, the endowment of anti-crisis energy is mostly used up in the creation of the multiverse. As Perpetua has explained, it was entrusted to her, which means that regular Super Celestials dont simply carry around a multiverse's worth of connective energy.
The "Destroy" scan: TDK says "the hands will be stronger than us both, and erase this universe." This just means they might be universal, depending on if they have to work together or not to destroy that single universe.
The "rearrange a multiverse" scans: They may have been working as a group (since they are referred to always in the plural, it wasnt a single guardian or being that was sent to correct the issue), or they could've been given enough Connective energy by the Source/Presence for the task of correcting the multiverse.
Those explanations fit well with what Perpetua has shown herself being capable of and what she has said she's capable of, so in my opinion it seems most logical to go with the interpretation that doesn't conflict with other information from the storyline if it isn't absolutely necessary and isn't illogical.
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It is. What a writer cares about power levels is irrelevant to the story itself.
While also ignoring the also canonical clarifications that there are in fact infinite. Because of favoritism.
It's only messy to you and Ant because you are favoritist towards the lowest possible interpretation. You literally think Mr. Mxyzptlk isn't even universal it seems considering you ignore stuff from the very story you claim to love and analyze.
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Ok i just want to address this real quick, how is this being a tie on comic make it throwaway? It's literally Rip being used as the author surrogate to outright tell the reader that while many believe that there are 52 Universes, the truth is that they are ill-informed and in reality, there are infinite worlds. This doesn't contradict them mentioning the 52 limit, it just shows that the actual characters can be misinformed or not understand the endless/infinite nature of the Multiverse. Nothing about what he said is presented as a joke at the time, he's been dead serious about the infinite universes line, otherwise why even bring up the 52 worlds to begin with.
I mean outright saying "it doesn't count" when there have been other instances of "endless" worlds and infinite worlds and 52 worlds itself ain't even consistent as we've shown with worlds that exist outside the 52 universe limit.
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If Perpetua will amped can only destroy one universe at a time and here children had to combine to match her power. That would make Anti-Monitor and the other 3-B. Damn, that means base Goku>>>Anti-Monitor.
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Again, you have misunderstood what I said. You are attacking a strawman. I'm not saying what they care about is important to understanding the story or to scaling them.
Again, where are these clarifications? And what is your argument that they should be taken over the dozens of statements made in Perpetua's own storyline? Likewise, how do you resolve the narrative conflicts that such an interpretation creates for Perpetua's storyline? Such as:
1) If the multiverse is infinite, her demonstrated process of destroying them one by one would've literally lasted forever, and accomplished absolutely nothing.
2) There's no reason why Perpetua would mention which universes are "known" or not, and you've never provided a reason why she would.
3) This interpretation makes World Forger's statement incoherent, he said infinite universes reduced to 52 universes, this is absolutely nonsense if it stayed infinite the entire time, there would be no change and there would be absolutely nothing to talk about.
It's messy no matter which interpretation you have, that's just a fact. Feeling confident in your interpretation doesn't make the situation less messy.
Because it's a tie-in to a cartoon movie. Likewise, this single line from a 2006 tie in comic for a straight-to-video movie should not be taken over what the Monitors, World Forger, Rip Hunter himself in a later storyline, and Perpetua say about the multiverse.
There have been limited other instances, but there's little reason to use them for Perpetua when in Perpetua's storyline she herself acknowledges the number as 52.
I mean, yes? Supergirl literally beat the shit out of Anti-Monitor. Goku is significantly more powerful than Supergirl.
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Yeah I don’t want to be the guy but this entire thread was literally a big waste of time.
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Explain why?
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Doesn't matter fiction can be illogical and I've seen verses where infinite universes are destroyed one by one like in Crisis on Infinite Earths.
But I just know you're one of those broads who think the COIE Anti-Monitor is weak too...
Complete mask off, amazing. The OP is biased towards Dragon Ball and wants to downgrade DC just for favoritism.
Why don't you take your own standards and downgrade Dragon Ball to 5-B or 3-C at most since ever since Episode 12 there hasn't been a single universal feat that wasn't from Zeno?
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He seems to agree to downgrade Anti-Monitor to 3-B and the brothers.
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Then he is biased and his opinion shouldn't be credited whatsoever.
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Also, what are all your arguments for her and here sons to stay at that tier?
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So you are openly admitting your position is illogical? That makes this easier. The only reason to pick an illogical explanation over a logical one is bias. Therefore, you are biased and your opinion shouldn't be credited whatsoever, according to yourself.
This is because the Starlight Collector the Anti-Monitor created was pulling all of the universes (which share a physical plane, vibrating at different frequencies) together to the Anti-Matter universe, which was collapsing them due to the properties of Anti-Matter and Positive Matter. Once the starlight collector was destroyed, he had to create an anti-matter cannon for the remaining five universes.
Weak is relative, but since he got worked by Supergirl, he certainly is relative to any universal being.
Your attempts to accuse me of being biased are sad and meaningless. Even if I was biased towards Dragon Ball for some reason, bias does not matter when you have incontrovertible evidence. Motivations are meaningless if the argument is backed by evidence, and you have repeatedly failed to address the evidence and have not provided any of your own.
No amount of you feeling outraged is going to be more important than comic book scans in determining how powerful a character is.
Because I'm not interested in Dragon Ball, don't know that much about it, and don't know or care what Goku is rated at. All I know is he reached Universal, which Anti-Monitor hasn't.
No one's opinion should be credited, only logical arguments supported by clear evidence should be credited.
Darksmash
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Gotta learn tier 1 japanese first
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I mean aren't you literally the same person that made a thread calling to downgrade DC and Marvel Tier 1's with no evidence besides "Its wank trust me."
And then went on to say things such as "Bruh it's not my fault the verse is Fodder."
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1. Saying that DC is only 52 universes because of one story and acting like it should cancel out all the evidence that it has more in every other story is pure favoritism and cherry-picking. Dude is incapable of reconciling the fact that comics have multiple authors and this just happens.
2. Hypertime exists beyond the physical universes, regardless of their number. It also makes all cosmologies simultaneously true at the same time. It is structurally and entologically superior to the universes and is Low 1-C at a minimum.
3. The Sphere of the Gods exists beyond the Bleed which is 5th Dimensional at a minimum and is also said to contain the entire dimensional structure of the multiverse. The Sphere of the Gods' realms are consistently described as abstract, metaphysical and portrayed as higher-dimensional, with Heaven, Olympus, Apokolips, New Genesis, Dream, etc all existing outside of space and time and the physical universes.
4. Because of this, I'm actually of the opinion that having The Batman Who Laughs at Low 1-C is lowballing compared to how big the cosmology really is. We are actually being super conservative with our current ratings for DC characters because of people's inability to let go of their preconceptions and accept factual evidance.
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Derailment Level: BWL%
Carry on.
Carry on.
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I would normally disagree with people throwing out the word "Biased" on this thread but honestly thats what i'm seeing with the Goku thing that came out of nowhere, and considering San Kakarot's history (The Marvel / DC downgrade thread I mentioned earlier.)
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The Anti-Monitor is one of the clearest 2-A characters in fiction in the original Crisis I don't even know how you can say without a shred of irony that he isn't even universal.
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I mean, if you want to be like that, the same Supergirl also scales to Pre-Crisis Superman, who directly has a feat we used in which he was able to restore "every timeline" and alternate earth that was destroyed by the Time Trapper in his fight against the Green Lanterns. Only reason said feat isn't considered at minimum 2-B to 2-A is because of some technicality, when in reality said feat could easily be seen as a 2-B to outright 2-A feat. Nobody even disagreed with said feats implementation, we just threw it away because we didn't like it.
Not only that, but if it wasn't for "outliers" we imposed on him, Pre-Crisis Superman could scale to 2-B through fights against guys like Dr. Fate and even Maaldor. So its not so preposterous said feats wouldn't automatically downgrade the Anti-Monitor out of 2-A just because he had a hard time with a character whose power we most likely massively underestimate anyway.
ALSO, Supergirl merely destroyed his physical body, and was literally one shot by one of his blasts and killed nearly instantly once he got a good shot in, and she was literally throwing every bit of her power at him at once in her final stand.
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Once again I’m using multiverse to refer to more than just the 6 universes remaining.
1) it’s directly said by BWL that after she finishes destroying the 52 she’ll remake the rest of the universe.
2) Perpetua doesn’t have to remention the 52 universes being only the known universes for us to know that. Multiversity already solidifies this.
3) Did you really just say a super celestials destroying the 52 known worlds so she can reshape the multiverse after isn’t something to talk or worry about? LOL.
You literally proved nothing. You and me both know what this is really about. This whole thread is just your attempt to try and get every character like CAS and Mandrakk downgraded below universal. Hence why you made a whole thread addressing what I said in another. You’ve been at it for a year on every other site and now you’re here trying to do the same thing.
1) it’s directly said by BWL that after she finishes destroying the 52 she’ll remake the rest of the universe.
2) Perpetua doesn’t have to remention the 52 universes being only the known universes for us to know that. Multiversity already solidifies this.
3) Did you really just say a super celestials destroying the 52 known worlds so she can reshape the multiverse after isn’t something to talk or worry about? LOL.
You literally proved nothing. You and me both know what this is really about. This whole thread is just your attempt to try and get every character like CAS and Mandrakk downgraded below universal. Hence why you made a whole thread addressing what I said in another. You’ve been at it for a year on every other site and now you’re here trying to do the same thing.
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It is because amped Perpetua by the Source could only destroy one universe at a time and which makes here High 3-A Amped Perpetua>The Ultra Monitor. So by feats the brothers are only 3-B.
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damn thats crazy
lets just ignore everything else that she, the world forger, the batman who laughs, and mr. mxy did in the comics written by the same writer
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I mean are we just going to throw out the fact that The Anti-Monitor was ******* over an infinite multiverse? I mean thats literally the name of the story arc "Crisis on Infinite Earths".
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What did they do?
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Supergirl took the Anti-Monitor off-guard for the first strike which had damaged his armor seriously. Anyway, Anti-Monitor was able to beat Pre-Crisis Superman quite easily before Supergirl's intervention.
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Anti-Monitor has no 2-A feats it has been debunked and he has shown that base Anti-Monitor is consistently 3-B let alone 3-A @Deagonx
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I mean he literally does, you saying he has no 2-A feats is straight up just denying actual DC canon, considering said feat was kinda what the plot revolved around. Not to mention the fact he just stomped the **** out of Pre Crisis Supes who has 3-A to 2-C feats on his own.
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Already wrong. I posted scans from several stories. Namely:
1. Death Metal
2. Justice League
3. Final Crisis
4. Countdown
5. 52
Again, this is an unsubstantiated claim. If the reality is that "infinite universes" is present in every other story, you would be able to substantiate with evidence. Yet, the evidence provided in the other downgrade thread was tremendously weak relying on vague "endless" statements that do not address the actual number of universes.
I have already debunked this notion earlier in the thread:
The canon creator of Hypertime literally debunks this notion on panel. The number of universes exists independent of Hypertime, proving the cosmologies do not stay forever within Hypertime after being destroyed.
This is further confirmed in the fight between Perpetua and TDK. The imminent end of the multiverse results in the hypertime possibilities dying out, which wouldn't be the case if hypertime maintained the universes despite their destruction in-verse. If it was ever the case, it's clearly been retconned on panel. Likewise, Hypertime is the 4th dimension of the multiverse.
This simply isn't true and conflicts with how characters have interacted with Hypertime in the past as described above.
This is the definition of beyond: at or to the further side of.
Beyond literally means "outside." Yes, the Sphere is outside of the bleed.
Again, I asked for evidence of this and you did not provide any, so I'll just repeat the earlier response:
Again, a vague reference to some mountain of evidence that has not yet been provided. Countless statements? The only one that has ever been provided is Batman's statement, which is wrong in calling it platonic which already puts its validity into question.
Likewise, you failed to address thee fact that they are in fact, consistently portrayed as physical, with numerous statements and interactions that emphasize physicality.
Evidence you've repeatedly failed to provide.
Again, your level of outrage is not a logical argument. I don't care how outrageous you find a claim, if it's backed up with clear evidence, then it doesn't matter how surprised you are. Anti-Matter did not use his own power to destroy universes, this is evident in the final parts of COIE where the Starlight Collector is destroyed, and he has to build an anti-matter cannon to try to destroy the remaining 5 universes. If he were 2-A, this storyline becomes incoherent, as he has no reason to build some contraption to accomplish something which, by your account, he should be able to do with a snap of his fingers.
And?
Once again, you have failed to address the logical errors.
1) If it's infinite, her demonstrated process of destroying them one by one would've literally lasted forever, and accomplished absolutely nothing.
2) There's no reason why Perpetua would mention which universes are "known" or not, and you've never provided a reason why she would.
3) This interpretation makes World Forger's statement incoherent, he said infinite universes reduced to 52 universes, this is absolutely nonsense if it stayed infinite the entire time, there would be no change and there would be absolutely nothing to talk about.
You are attacking a strawman, no one said this. I said the urgency disappears because Perpetua's victory will never occur, since she's trying to destroy infinity 1 by 1.
There's no real reason Supergirl should be able to damage a 1-C being's armor at all. Mind you, this is the main team they sent for Anti-Monitor.
I am not. You just haven't read COIE. I already provided the explanation:
This is because the Starlight Collector the Anti-Monitor created was pulling all of the universes (which share a physical plane, vibrating at different frequencies) together to the Anti-Matter universe, which was collapsing them due to the properties of Anti-Matter and Positive Matter. Once the starlight collector was destroyed, he had to create an anti-matter cannon for the remaining five universes.
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Pre-Crisis Superman got destroyed by a fraction of the force of the Big Bang which is a 3-B feat. Also, the Anti -Monitor feat is consistent with 3-B.
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Yeah, and, again. Supergirl was literally throwing everything at Anti-Monitor in the fight of her life and AM still got one good shot on her and demolished her. All she did was destroy his body, which we've seen with Wally's fight with a stronger AM doesn't mean they're defeated.
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He has plenty of 2-A feats in Crisis from his wave rippling through every universe at every point in time to him erasing every universe in the multiverse at every moment in history to him gaining the power to destroy the entire multiverse and remake it in one shot and clashing with full-power Spectre.
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This proves that Hypertime exists on an ontologically superior level to the lower level of existence where the universes are contained.
your mountain of evidence is that they are depicted as looking three-dimensional because they exist in media made by three-dimensional people meant to be consumed by other people.
I would expect that you'd be capable of a minimal amount of abstraction in your analysis but apparently not.
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I will say as for the whole "These abstract realms are depicted as buildings and human like locations" point can apply to alot more than just DC comics.
I mean... Do you really wanna come and attack Twin Peaks next? Theres a literal Low 1-A structure thats just depicted as a room and some hallways with red curtains.
I mean... Do you really wanna come and attack Twin Peaks next? Theres a literal Low 1-A structure thats just depicted as a room and some hallways with red curtains.
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1) She’s destroying 52 and then reshaping the universe. Already solidified by BWL.
2) Rementioning the 52 universes being only the known universes proves nothing when Multiversity already solidifies the notion.
3) Can you post the statement? Also I didn’t strawman you. You directly tried to imply that Perpetuas actions weren’t something to concern over.
Her victory will occur. Once she finishes destroying the 52 she’ll remake everything else. Directly said by the BWL.
2) Rementioning the 52 universes being only the known universes proves nothing when Multiversity already solidifies the notion.
3) Can you post the statement? Also I didn’t strawman you. You directly tried to imply that Perpetuas actions weren’t something to concern over.
Her victory will occur. Once she finishes destroying the 52 she’ll remake everything else. Directly said by the BWL.
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