Perpetua Downgrade

[Jared1111]

Arent we doing something similar with Superman? Where we have different profiles for him depending on media and era(?)?

Because, in all honesty, how we treat DC (And probably Marvel) has always confused me. Why ARE we actually hamfisting versions with wildly different interpretations into singular profiles? I always heard of those insane scaling problems due to different writers, but why are we scaling characters between different characters like this in the first place?

The problem at hand is most definitly more nuanced than that, else SOMEONE would have brought up a solution like that already. As a filthy weeb who never came closer to a DC/Marvel book than 5 meters, all im seeing is an attempt to fix a ship with paper and bandages and trying to sail instead of just building it anew from the ground up.

BTW, i massively disagree with this on such a fundamental level. We compare the cosmologies of the characters together because they're all under the same continuity and same editorial structure. It being inconsistent doesn't mean anything, its not like every single one of these comics is a different continuity, they all bleed into one another and its obvious they try to build off one another. Most of the time they aren't even that contradictory and when they are, that doesn't automatically mean we need to just create separate keys for every time the writers go a little off the mark with the rules of the universe.

We have different profiles for Superman because they are different Supermen, and those same Superman get various powers of a period of time.

And i'm sorry to sound like a dick... but maybe, y'know, you shouldn't argue about how we need to fix things for a verse you have no actual first hand knowledge about.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

There will be no downgrade because people disagree despite the thread clearly having solid logical basis? Might as well make Goku tier 0 because I am sure people will agree with it

Sean Schemmel said SSG Goku is omnipotent, so...

It's a joke, in case you guys didn't catch on.

 

[Jared1111]

There will be no downgrade because people disagree despite the thread clearly having solid logical basis? Might as well make Goku tier 0 because I am sure people will agree with it

Why do you people keep bringing up Goku

Last time i checked, he wasn't a DC character.

Also there have been plenty of people in this thread that have pointed out counterarguments to what has been said, and half the other people that argue against it either admit they don't know anything about DC, or have outright never even touched a DC Comic. This ain't as one sided as you guys wish it was.

 

[ZoroNotZolo]

Why do you people keep bringing up Goku

Last time i checked, he wasn't a DC character.

No idea...

Also, I might be leaning more toward disagreeing, but nothing's set in stone yet.

 

[First_Witch]

and half the other people that argue against it either admit they don't know anything about DC, or have outright never even touched a DC Comic.

raises hand I wasnt arguing at all, just merely proposing an idea to a long run and known issue. Sometimes people forget the most simplest solutions to problems, not this time i suppose.

Good luck with the verse all things considered, sometime its good to be ignorant about something, because hoo boy does this look like a pile of headachea

 

[Jared1111]

raises hand I wasnt arguing at all, just merely proposing an idea to a long run and known issue. Sometimes people forget the most simplest solutions to problems, not this time i suppose.

Good luck with the verse all things considered, sometime its good to be ignorant about something, because hoo boy does this look like a pile of headachea

Yeah the simple solution of chopping up these decade-old characters into multiple keys based on different writers, of which there can be dozens of, because there are some discrepancies between different people that aren't even as monumental as people believe. Easy as pie, especially with the state of disrepair DC pages are already in, even for characters like Superman.

Or better yet, just finding the one version of the character that somehow is consistent enough to downgrade into oblivion as this proposes.

I'd hate to see what the complex solution is honestly. Do we create keys based on how they act in individual story arcs and issues?

And why propose something to simply fix a verse you, again, have no idea about. You're making sweeping statements about how we're just trying to fix a broken ship with bandages... and you don't even know what you're talking about. Why even show up in the big ass confusing DC thread and propose any solution if you really got nothing to add. I ain't showing up in Kingdom Hearts revisions and complaining about how gosh darn dumb that is, even though i've never even touched those games.

 

[First_Witch]

Fair enough

 

[ShivaShakti]

Lets keep it civil

 

[Tllmbrg]

Arent we doing something similar with Superman? Where we have different profiles for him depending on media and era(?)?

Because, in all honesty, how we treat DC (And probably Marvel) has always confused me. Why ARE we actually hamfisting versions with wildly different interpretations into singular profiles? I always heard of those insane scaling problems due to different writers, but why are we scaling characters between different characters like this in the first place?

The problem at hand is most definitly more nuanced than that, else SOMEONE would have brought up a solution like that already. As a filthy weeb who never came closer to a DC/Marvel book than 5 meters, all im seeing is an attempt to fix a ship with paper and bandages and trying to sail instead of just building it anew from the ground up.

Eh I know a bit late to respond to this (Time zones, sue me) but at least on the Marvel side there was never a full blown out reboot or cosmology change outside Ultimate which we already rate separately we just have soft reboots like Iron Man’s back story moving to Iraq instead of the Vietnam War in later retelling
Heck only reason there’re Golden Age profiles is because the scaling back then was hella different but outside that and Ultimate I find any more separation pointless and confusing

Sorry Matt, but how many verses do you think will try to bandwagon off of changes like that happening to DC and Marvel? Both of those franchises clearly need the special treatment, we have barely anything close to their scope. Literally 99% of fiction on this website are simple series, shows and books spanning over a couple hour of fiction, written by one author. You DONT NEED anything more than 1 profile per character in those cases.

Like, obviously im not saying to chop them into Keys for EVERY author that has worked on Supes. If there is a contiuity there is a continuity, cant change that. But let me remind you that we ARE already doing something similar with different adaption of the SAME story like Dragon Ball etc. Its not the same cookie cut issue, but it is similar in nature enough. No one is opposed to that, why should they? More accurate profiles are possible this way.

Tbf D&D is like a franchise that spans over like what 50-60 years and has multiple authors and we quasi composite iirc it due to the editions suppose to be 1 timeline of sorts while also needing to ignore some stuff

 

[Darksmash]

You're saying these realms with descriptions of size can't be metaphysical. Apparently "dwarfing galaxies" is only possible when its physical, and then use "this realm has gravity and impact in it" therefore it can't be abstract or metaphysical.

It's not a strawman. Your argument comes up to "these realms aren't abstract enough". This would be like saying "Oh the Black Lodge in Twin Peaks is just a bunch of rooms and curtains so it can't be Low 1-A."

What about the "cities being described as thousand miles wide" part

Appearances are one thing but the text also seemingly uses the same units of measurement as what one would use to measure normal physical distances. I would assume for transcendent realms in context of our tiering system it would have been more akin to "Infinities of miles"

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I mean... Do you really wanna come and attack Twin Peaks next? Theres a literal Low 1-A structure thats just depicted as a room and some hallways with red curtains.

I find this pretty funny. Irrelevant ultimately, just funny.

 

[Amakasu]

Ah, my laptop is not coming this week, so I had to download some scans, so here I come. Also thanks to ultima for some scans.

Heaven is a place beyond time and space.The very concepts of Scale (measurement of distance) is meaningless in the Astral Boundary, the abyss of Heaven It is also said by lucifer that the question of how vast the silver city is meaningless.Heaven is Trancendent of the matterial realm (the orrery)The Angles also have existed before the concept of time, also known as time before time Hell is stated to be a realm of pure thought and can be accessed through the mind, as Martian Manhunter did. There are infinite personal hell.

 

[Amakasu]

Again, thanks to ultima and prince of the morning for scans. I don't have my laptop currently so I don't have enough scans.

 

[Darksmash]

Those scans aren't working for me

 

[Amakasu]

Those scans aren't working for me

Oh, thanks for letting me know. I'll redo it

 

[Antvasima]

The people pushing for the downgrade have expressively shown their bad faith and bias in this thread. The arguments don't just "seem" in bad faith, they are.

No, you are the one repeatedly using toxic ad-hominem false accusation personal attacks in order to try to incite an uproar that benefits yourself. That is explicitly strongly against our rules, and you are gleefully breaking them over and over and over.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, to clarify a bit, my personal aims are different from those of Diagonx. I simply want Pralaya strictly scaled from the DeMatteis cosmology, The Endless and Lucifer strictly scaled from the Gaiman/Carey cosmology, Perpetua and The World Forger strictly scaled from the Snyder cosmology, Mandrakk to scale from the Morrison cosmology, and give 1-2 extra keys to characters that have been prominent in several cosmologies. In addition, I think that we are giving The Overvoid extreme special treatment for a single degree of fiction-reality transcendence. That is all.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, and i mean no disrespect, but i think @Ant acting like there is no bias here is a bit suspect. Ant, you have repeatedly gone against DC upgrades and outright told me certain characters wouldn't reach certain tiers because you don't feel they SHOULD be there. You've shut down threads on me mid discussion, only for Eficiente to open them up just to get the last word in, then closing them again before i had a chance to discuss these matters any further with him.

Multiple people talking about their dislike of new DC comics or new characters, in a downgrade thread of all places, is absolutely bonkers and unneeded. We don't need to hear why you like or dislike a character in this thread, that has nothing to do with what tier they should be or why you're arguing against them, it seems pretty suspect that a lot of people in this thread seem to have a weird distaste for DC or are outright giddy to see it downgraded for very personal reasons.

There being a genuine argument against downgrading DC is fine, whatever, but if you're gonna act professional you need to stop letting your personal feelings for DC get in the way of your judgement, on both sides. I don't agree with Matt on a lot of things, and i'm sure he doesn't agree with me either, plus i think he's too combative at times... but in my opinion, he's right with their being an aura of bias in the downgrades being presented.

I am consistently trying to be professional in all of my handling of this wiki overall, and am thoroughly obsessed with making it as reliable as possible in all areas, including for verses that I really like or dislike, but I have limited mental filters or social skills, and get easily triggered to feel the need to defend myself in this area, so when Matthew or others start to repeatedly attack me, I do not know any other way to handle it than try to honestly explain my overall viewpoint. That is all.

In addition, since I have long and vast experience with these two contInuities, I have never personally encountered anything that remotely approaches them in terms of overall internal inconsistency, so I get reactions of strong intuitive wrongness about some of the statistics for the cosmic entities, when they are not currently portrayed at anywhere near such a scale.

Also, I do not remember closing any thread of yours. Please elaborate.

 

[Antvasima]

I said this super earlier but now that all the sane people that don’t have a hate boner for DC are hear and commented, can we please close this thread.

This is also extremely uncalled for and very against our rules.

 

[Amakasu]

Heaven is stated to be beyond time and space.The very concepts of Scale (measurement of distance) is meaningless in the Astral Boundary, the abyss of Heaven. Heaven is also stated to be non matterial by an angel who says that the matterial realm is the domain of zaruiel as he is the representative of the Heaven in the Universe.Heaven is also stated to trancend the matterial plane.Hell is stated to be a realm of pure thought and can be accessed through the mind, as Martian Manhunter did. There are infinite personal hell

 

[Amakasu]

Anyway, to clarify a bit, my personal aims are different from those of Diagonx. I simply want Pralaya strictly scaled from the DeMatteis cosmology, The Endless and Lucifer strictly scaled from the Gaiman/Carey cosmology, Perpetua and The World Forger strictly scaled from the Snyder cosmology, Mandrakk to scale from the Morrison cosmology, and give 1-2 extra keys to characters that have been prominen in several cosmologies. In addition, I think that we are giving The Overvoid extreme special treatment for a single degree of fiction-reality transcendence. That is all.

Wait, what? Dematties makes comics for dc and not the other way. He has wrote spectre, Phantom stranger, and other things, so now we are supposed to make different key for these characters despite them being existing in th same cosmology as the monitors, Superman and etc. Neil gaimain also works for dc so his works should contribute to DC cosmology as sandman, lucifer and everything takes part in DC. Lucifer, ramiel, duma and others are also referenced by other writers and stories like the demon, the spectre, Batman, are we now supposed to make keys for each comic where these characters appeard? The overvoid is weird so I won talk about him

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, Ultima made good points. I still think that we should scale the cosmic characters from the versions of the cosmology that they are directly associated with though.

 

[Amakasu]

My saying is that we make a composite cosmology like we did for marvel. We also should take what's the most consistent for the cosmology and not some outliers and contradiction. That's much better than making keys which dosen't even make sense.

 

[Antvasima]

Wait, what? Dematties makes comics for dc and not the other way. He has wrote spectre, Phantom stranger, and other things, so now we are supposed to make different key for these characters despite them being existing in th same cosmology as the monitors, Superman and etc. Neil gaimain also works for dc so his works should contribute to DC cosmology as sandman, lucifer and everything takes part in DC. Lucifer, ramiel, duma and others are also referenced by other writers and stories like the demon, the spectre, Batman, are we now supposed to make keys for each comic where these characters appeard? The overvoid is weird so I won talk about him

My strong impression is that these authors have very different takes on the scale of the cosmology and that DC's editorial department is nowhere near as competent as it once was.

I have been talking with a few knowledgeable members in private and asked them to do research in this regard. However, it will likely take quite a long time until they are finished, especially with ClassicNESfan and PrinceOfTheMorning gone from the wiki.

 

[Antvasima]

My saying is that we make a composite cosmology like we did for marvel. We also should take what's the most consistent for the cosmology and not some outliers and contradiction. That's much better than making keys which dosen't even make sense.

Marvel is different from DC in this regard. It has not gone through official reboots, or several writers doing their own thing at unspecified time intervals, just gradually severely detrimentally retconned its continuity, especially recently at the hands of Jason Aaron and Jonathan Hickman.

Marvel really does fulfill the requirements for its current scaling in the cases of most multiversal abstracts, but only according to its early 1990s era, not the current one, which is not portrayed as an infinite ascending hierarchy of infinities, but as something that can be completely annihilated by destroying all universes, so The Beyonders and Lifebringer Galactus do not fit at Low 1-A i.m.h.o., but several other cosmic entities do. As such, two keys depending on the era should likely be sufficient to take inconsistencies into account.

However, this is not a Marvel thread, so we should drop this subject now.

 

[Planck69]

Ant kinda has a point. Inconsistent as it is, Marvel never went through any official reboot so it sorta fits the composite nature it has, whether we like it or not.

 

[Amakasu]

Marvel is different from DC in this regard. It has not gone through official reboots, or several writers doing their own thing at unspecified time intervals, just gradually severely detrimentally retconned its continuity, especially recently at the hands of Jason Aaron and Jonathan Hickman.

Marvel really does fulfill the requirements for its current scaling in the cases of most multiversal abstracts, but only according to its early 1990s era not the current one, which is not portrayed as an infinite ascendig hierarchy of infinities, but as something that can be completely destroyed by destroying all universes, so The Beyonders and Lifebringer Galactus do not fit at Low 1-A i.m.h.o., but several other cosmic entities do. As such, two keys depending on the era should likely be sufficient to take inconsistencies into account.

However, this is not a Marvel thread, so we should drop this subject now.

You know the crisis only applies to the orrery?

 

[Amakasu]

Ant kinda has a point. Inconsistent as it is, Marvel never went through any official reboot so it sorta fits the composite nature it has, whether we like it or not.

But there was never a total reboot. The crisis reboots only applied to the orrery, beings like the monitors, the new gods and everybody in the sphere of the gods and above weren't affected by the crisis whatsoever.

 

[Antvasima]

There have still been very different interpretations from different writers.

As far as I have understood, Morrison largely based his multiversal dimensional hierarchy scale on string theory (although he was occasionally inconsistent in this regard when comparing his later writing with his early JLA work, for example), whereas DeMatteis characteristically shovelled the greater scale of his standard religious beliefs into his writing, without caring if it fit with the established cosmology, and the Gaiman/Carey scales were less clearly defined.

However, again, I have lost interest in the franchise lately, and am constantly very distracted on top of that, so I am not able to cite several specific examples off the top of my head as I used to.

I have asked a few knowledgeable members to investigate the specifics though, but that is a discussion to be had at a later point.

 

[Amakasu]

What about the "cities being described as thousand miles wide" part

Appearances are one thing but the text also seemingly uses the same units of measurement as what one would use to measure normal physical distances. I would assume for transcendent realms in context of our tiering system it would have been more akin to "Infinities of miles"

I would say that we have to see what's the most Consistent scaling.

 

[Greenshifter]

many instances exist of characters going to the Sphere and defeating its natives.

I’m just gonna quickly say here that the boom tubes also amp the characters to be on the same dimensional level of the gods. So you’re right they’re not outliers, their upscaled versions just scale.

 

[Darksmash]

I would say that we have to see what's the most Consistent scaling.

It seems consistent to me when they say "distances are almost impossible to measure" in that scan from DeagonX highlighting that scale is meaningless not because the concept of size is literally surpassed, but because things are just too big there.

 

[Greenshifter]

No, you are the one repeatedly using toxic ad-hominem false accusation personal attacks in order to try to incite an uproar that benefits yourself. That is explicitly strongly against our rules, and you are gleefully breaking them over and over and over.

Matt’s not in the wrong here despite his cocky attitude. I would personally defend him for anything that comes from this thread and trust me that’s saying A LOT.

 

[Planck69]

While I disagree with the premise of the thread, Matt didn't exactly handle it in a professional manner, you have to admit.

Regardless, let's just move on from that.

 

[Amakasu]

While I disagree with the premise of the thread, Matt didn't exactly handle it in a professional manner, you have to admit.

Regardless, let's just move on from that.

Just imagine what would you do if someone just comes out of nowhere starts speaking like he's the highest authority and that his words are objective fact, what would you do? He legit tried to say the sphere of the gods is physical for some stupid nitpicks and not seeing what consistency is. I would too be furious.

 

[Greenshifter]

Anyway, to clarify a bit, my personal aims are different from those of Diagonx. I simply want Pralaya strictly scaled from the DeMatteis cosmology, The Endless and Lucifer strictly scaled from the Gaiman/Carey cosmology, Perpetua and The World Forger strictly scaled from the Snyder cosmology, Mandrakk to scale from the Morrison cosmology, and give 1-2 extra keys to characters that have been prominent in several cosmologies. In addition, I think that we are giving The Overvoid extreme special treatment for a single degree of fiction-reality transcendence. That is all.

That’s good and all Ant but we can discuss that in a separate thread. It really isn’t a good idea to talk about this in every single DC thread as it’ll only create confusion as well as mention Princeofthemorning’s sentiment when he left the wiki. Also not a good idea.

I’m basically asking for the freedom to discuss all these DC issues with you being involved as much as you’d be in another verse’s CRT. Because your tireless quest for reliability, is gonna be the downfall of the last shred of reliability DC has on VSBW.

 

[Planck69]

Just imagine what would you do if someone just comes out of nowhere starts speaking like he's the highest authority and that his words are objective fact, what would you do? He legit tried to say the sphere of the gods is physical for some stupid nitpicks and not seeing what consistency is. I would too be furious.

I'd explain it to them how that's not the case. If I have evidence on my side then I'll just be fine and if they still believe otherwise then I'll have the wider knowledgeable community be the judge of our arguments.

Of course I'd be frustrated eventually I'd at least try to deal with civility at first. I've dealt with many people acting as authorities on my favourite verses despite talking quite a bit of senseless crap.

That shouldn't ever be ab excuse for being rude though.

Anyway, let's drop this. It appears to have calmed down.

 

[Darksmash]

Just imagine what would you do if someone just comes out of nowhere starts speaking like he's the highest authority and that his words are objective fact, what would you do? He legit tried to say the sphere of the gods is physical for some stupid nitpicks and not seeing what consistency is. I would too be furious.

I am not really seeing the "Speaking like he's the highest authority" part

If someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean you have to make them out to be some villain. For what it's worth the evidence for it being physical doesn't seem wrong to me. What's consistent and makes sense is another story. Words like "Metaphysical", "conceptual" themselves can have different meanings for different verses and may not 100% of the time align with what they mean for the general fiction. Similarly just being a "higher plane of reality" doesn't necessarily make it infinitely transcendent.

 

[Confluctor]

I’m just gonna quickly say here that the boom tubes also amp the characters to be on the same dimensional level of the gods. So you’re right they’re not outliers, their upscaled versions just scale.

Scan?

 

[Amakasu]

I am not really seeing the "Speaking like he's the highest authority" part

If someone disagrees with you it doesn't mean you have to make them out to be some villain. For what it's worth the evidence for it being physical doesn't seem wrong to me. What's consistent and makes sense is another story. Words like "Metaphysical", "conceptual" themselves can have different meanings for different verses and may not 100% of the time align with what they mean for the general fiction. Similarly just being a "higher plane of reality" doesn't necessarily make it infinitely transcendent.

I just used that because that specific word was coming in my mind at the moment, plus he also Completely denied any other form of explanation and consistency for one particular scan which seems iffy, I'll re read the comic to find more context.

I didn't, I just was talking from a viewpoint of a person who scales dc, imagine hearing that limbo, the monitor sphere, hypertime is 3A for some reason, while ignoring the more consistent interpretation of the same thing. Yes, I do agree that metaphysical can mean different things in other Fiction, but to nitpick some scans and directly commiting a falacy (real life falacy, if it's valid in this wiki), while ignoring scans that say the otherwise. Aswell there's ample of evidence of the dreaming, the sphere of the gods, Heaven, and other realms of hold literally Platonic archetypes or jungian archetypes, so you can definitely argue 1A (not saying the godsphere is 1A but the chances are there) in the same explanation ultima gave, the godsphere views the multivese as a book.