Perpetua Downgrade

[Planck69]

Using a couple of instances of inconsistent showings against what the lore itself tells us is honestly ridiculous in my opinion. If it's explicitly said to be a transcendent world above theutliverse and has enough scans to show this then a few instances of inconsistency shouldn't really negate it.

 

[Greenshifter]

@Confluctor I’d have to look for it but there’s this one scan where Supes says he doesn’t wanna leave Apokalyps because there he is amongst people with power comparable to himself. (And he was resized)

But technically if you agree with the characters getting rescaled to be the size of the New Gods then there’s nothing really left to prove since existing on the same dimensional level as them already grants you higher-dimensional power comparable to themselves. It’d be like asking proof for a 3D being to have 3D power.

 

[Confluctor]

Are you referring to the Death of New God's storyline? Or an earlier one?

 

[Greenshifter]

I don’t know. I think earlier. I’ve just seen the scan but don’t know which comic it’s from.

 

[Darksmash]

the sphere of the gods, Heaven, and other realms of hold literally Platonic archetypes or jungian archetypes, so you can definitely argue 1A (not saying the godsphere is 1A but the chances are there) in the same explanation ultima gave, the godsphere views the multivese as a book.

Like I said platonic or Jungian whatever can mean different things for different verses. However the godsphere viewing the multiverse as a book is definitely a solid argument for it being transcendent unless it has some other context

 

[Confluctor]

I don’t know. I think earlier. I’ve just seen the scan but don’t know which comic it’s from.

Lemme know if you find it. I will look for it on my end too.

I have read tons of New God's stuff but cannot remember this. I know the downscaling one which was in JLI (?) but not the upscaling one.

 

[Amakasu]

Like I said platonic or Jungian whatever can mean different things for different verses. However the godsphere viewing the multiverse as a book is definitely a solid argument for it being transcendent unless it has some other context

Wait, what? The godsphere houses the Platonic form of everything below it, that's why I said Platonic, Jungian comes from the Collective unconsciousness which is a concept of carl Jung. As well the entire godsphere being stated to be beyond time and space, would definitely count for outerversal, and aswell some bleed scaling. I won't talk much about this as this is my personal belief, just mentioning it for metaphysical aspect.

 

[Darksmash]

Wait, what? The godsphere houses the Platonic form of everything below it, that's why I said Platonic, Jungian comes from the Collective unconsciousness which is a concept of carl Jung.

What I meant was that like concepts usage of ideas such as platonism or archetypes can also vary from fiction to fiction. If it is shown that the usage does not lead to an infinite transcendent superiority in case of DC then we have to roll with it

 

[Amakasu]

What I meant was that like concepts usage of ideas such as platonism or archetypes can also vary from fiction to fiction. If it is shown that the usage does not lead to an infinite transcendent superiority in case of DC then we have to roll with it

Yes, I can see that, but we can definitely see DC take inspiration from the actual concepts of the both. Aswell Platonic form is considered outerversal here.

 

[Amakasu]

What I meant was that like concepts usage of ideas such as platonism or archetypes can also vary from fiction to fiction. If it is shown that the usage does not lead to an infinite transcendent superiority in case of DC then we have to roll with it

Plus the souls of humans are considered archetypal in dc. Plus is humans perciving 11 Dimension valid? I have scans of humans perciving 11 Dimensions.

 

[Confluctor]

beyond time and space, would definitely count for outerversal

Why would transcending time/space = outerversal?

 

[Amakasu]

Why would transcending time/space = outerversal?

I meant to say Trancending time and space together with the archetypal thing. I know Trancending time and space is vauge af, but the usage of platonism and being beyond time and space, I can definitely see it being outerversal. Just by viewpoint tho, not saying it's outerversal. Anyone can have their own Interpretation.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, since this thread seems to have been rejected, and largely turned toxic in the process due to dishonest incendiary debating tactics, should we close it soon and move on?

 

[Amakasu]

Well, since this thread seems to have been rejected, and largely turned toxic in the process due to dishonest incendiary debating tactics, should we close it soon and move on?

I guess so

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah since it got rejected, no need to continue it.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. A confirmation from Deagonx as well would be preferable though.

 

[Amakasu]

Okay. A confirmation from Deagonx as well would be preferable though.

If you want you can wait for his confirmation. But I'll suggest to close this thread before this thing even scales further.

 

[San-Kakarot]

@Matthew_Schroeder He must address a large number of arguments that @Deagonx supplied with scans and context. It would be nice if we weighed 'em.

 

[Deagonx]

That isn't very relevant, considering Darkseid's fall is still stated and shown to have damaged the structure of the Orrery of Worlds.

Damaging the structure isn't the same as destroying it altogether, which is what the initial premise suggests.

Brief reminder here that the basic definition of Hypertime is that it is the 3-dimensional analogue of time (Which would intermingle with three-dimensional space to form a six-dimensional reality, overall), which we would have to use, given how I've seen you and a few others talking about prioritizing Morrison's cosmology over others.

Pardon? When have I ever prioritized Morrison's cosmology over others? Likewise, has this notion of it being a "3-dimensional analogue of time" been stated in the comics or just in interviews?

By extension, the very fact that Perpetua and The Darkest Knight's battle was threatening to destroy Bleedspace should already tell you that them being only 2-C is pretty ridiculous

How so?

There's plenty of it, my dude. Grant Morrison's own run of Justice League repeatedly describes Heaven as being a higher plane of existence that completely transcends the world of matter

You are editorializing the text. It does not say that it's a higher plane of existence nor does it say that it "completely transcends the world of matter." It says that it is a "higher order of reality" and goes on to describe it in a physical lens, saying that "the air of heaven would burst your lungs" "the light of heaven would slash your corneas."

And, since you seem to be speaking from a place of ignorance regarding the Tiering System in general: Existing on a higher level of reality beyond space and time is Low 1-C, at absolute minimum.

I don't see this notion reflected in the tiering system, where is it?

he transcended his own physical form

Again, you are blatantly editorializing the text and ignoring that your scans have actually supported my point. When he loses his form, he is described as being incapable of holding his atoms together, yet when he appears before DeSaad he explicitly says he is "corporeal again."

You're saying these realms with descriptions of size can't be metaphysical. Apparently "dwarfing galaxies" is only possible when its physical, and then use "this realm has gravity and impact in it" therefore it can't be abstract or metaphysical.

Precisely, having size relative to a galaxy is indeed only possible when it's physical. These notions are incompatible with a non-corporeal reality.

It's not a strawman. Your argument comes up to "these realms aren't abstract enough".

This is strawman, as that is not my argument at all.

It was so she could make her army of Apex predators.

Why would she need to destroy the "known worlds" to accomplish this? Why would destroying 52/infinity do such a thing?

Because they’re the ones we know?

Why would Perpetua care about that or refer to them in such terms?

There doesn't need to be. It was already referenced in the past as I've already said FOR THE 50TH TIME.

By different characters in a different storyline with a clear reason for referring to them that way. Once again, this logic is bunk, and you have still failed to address the issues with this interpretation.

I’m just gonna quickly say here that the boom tubes also amp the characters to be on the same dimensional level of the gods. So you’re right they’re not outliers, their upscaled versions just scale.

First, boom tubes would only account for visits to the realm of the New Gods (but again, it's repeatedly been described as a change in physical size) but even then several characters have accomplished reaching New Genesis and Apokolips without boomtubes over the years.

The godsphere houses the Platonic form of everything below it

Nothing in the multiverse can be platonic by definition.

 

[Deagonx]

Okay. A confirmation from Deagonx as well would be preferable though.

I think there are a few points of contention worth whittling down further, but this is what I do think we have accomplished:

1. The opposition has failed to properly justify their view that Perpetua should be seen through the lens of infinite universes. Firstly, failing to provide any scans whatsoever this entire debate that DC even has infinite universes aside from one user posting a tie-in comic from a straight-to-video cartoon movie). Secondly, failing to address or resolve the logical errors that such an interpretation creations. Both xearsay and matthew_schroeder both willfully acknowledged that their interpretation was illogical, but that we should accept it anyways because "it's fiction."

2. The notion that Anti-Monitor personally destroyed infinite universes in such a way that it could be considered 2-A has been repudiated fully, no one really had any counterarguments because it just seems that most people here known COIE Anti-Monitor by reputation rather than having actually read COIE and considering the implications of his various feats. Which is fine, COIE is a slog and isn't fun to read, but it's important if you're going to try and scale the characters.

3. The physicality or lackthereof for the Sphere of the Gods its a point of contention, and the evidence has been shown to be maddeningly inconsistent (though to wit, not many scans of its supposed metaphysicality have been provided aside from a single Batman statement, as the scans that Ultima provided actually support my point). I guess it's a question of, "do we want characters to be 1-C in a finite 52 universe multiverse because sometimes the Sphere is involved with vaguely abstract notions, but is described as physical, interacts as physical, and often called physical in dozens of storylines?" I think at the very least, the Sphere's "transcendence" doesn't meet the qualifications needed to say it "infinitely transcends" the multiverse.

4. I think it's worth revisiting and placing under a more critical lens, the popularly repeated notion that the Sphere, Hypertime, or even the Bleed constitute a 2-A or 1-C multiverse, such that characters who have clear limits on the number of universes they can destroy, or even characters who cannot destroy universes at all, have been shown to affect these structures in meaningful ways.

 

[Panpanpanjeidj]

In my opinion, a reality that is higher than the universe, and at the same time transcends time and space, is treated in this wiki as a fifth dimension.

 

[Greenshifter]

Lemme know if you find it. I will look for it on my end too.

I have read tons of New God's stuff but cannot remember this. I know the downscaling one which was in JLI (?) but not the upscaling one.

Here you go.

Aswell Platonic form is considered outerversal here.

Not always, on CSAP it is tho. (Here you basically have to be beyond every extension of a concept. Being beyond a concept vs all of it's extensions is something I'm not gonna get into here though)

I can definitely see it being outerversal. Just by viewpoint tho, not saying it's outerversal

Something that might interest you is the following: The Phantom Zone is described as a boundless dimensionless dimension between being and nothingness.

Basically to be a dimensionless dimension you have 2 options in the tiering system: 11-C (0 dimensions) or Low 1-A (beyond dimensions). Since the Phantom Zone can hold 3D beings, it is not 11-C. Thus it must be Low 1-A or higher. The Phantom Zone is a part of the Sphere of the Gods thus all the realms there are at least Low 1-A.

Edit: this is Low 1-A on CSAP, probably 1-A on VSBW.

 

[Amakasu]

Here you go.

Not always, on CSAP it is tho. (Here you basically have to be beyond every extension of a concept. Being beyond a concept vs all of it's extensions is something I'm not gonna get into here though)

Something that might interest you is the following: The Phantom Zone is described as a boundless dimensionless dimension between being and nothingness.

Basically to be a dimensionless dimension you have 2 options in the tiering system: 11-C (0 dimensions) or Low 1-A (beyond dimensions). Since the Phantom Zone can hold 3D beings, it is not 11-C. Thus it must be Low 1-A or higher. The Phantom Zone is a part of the Sphere of the Gods thus all the realms there are at least Low 1-A.

I do know the dimensionless scan. Thanks regardless. I'm thinking of making a cosmology blog if I got my laptop.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, as I mentioned earlier, my aims do not coincide with Deagonx's, but I suppose that he does have the right to defend his viewpoints a bit further if he wishes.

The problem is that this thread gave rise to toxic incendiary accusations, which definitely need to completely be avoided from now onwards.

 

[Confluctor]

Here you go.

What? That doesn't prove upscaling? It can also be interpreted that the new god's are only as strong as Superman.

Also he isn't being literal here, so it cannot be taken as a case of "upscaling".

 

[Greenshifter]

No I mean size upscaling. Like literally getting bigger to be on their dimensional level, you can see this because the city isn't infinitely bigger than him. This was just to prove that when he's on their dimensional level that he does in fact have power comparable to the New Gods (which speaks for itself really).

Unless you're saying New Gods scale to 3D power. In which case that's nonsensical since that's like saying a human being has the same strength as a 2D square.

 

[Confluctor]

But it doesn't tho? (Size upscaling)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

However, again, I have lost interest in the franchise lately, and am constantly very distracted on top of that, so I am not able to cite several specific examples off the top of my head as I used to.

If you have no interest why do you come on every thread to cry about how wanked it is and how unfair it is for you.

 

[Antvasima]

Really?

If almost everybody else here can remain mature and civilised and avoid toxic incendiary false accusations, why do you have to obsessively stick at it like an Energizer Bunny, despite being warned to stop?

Also, you were the one who started repeatedly attacking me, not the other way around. I simply tried to honestly explain my viewpoints as best as I can in response. I am not the bad guy here.

In addition, for the record, I have already explained several times that I genuinely disagree with our current statistics for this franchise, and that sort of thing keeps nagging me like an itch given the obsessive perfectionism that drove me to organise the growth of this community in the first place.

 

[San-Kakarot]

I agree with @Deagonx COIE Anti-Monitor being "2-A" is all leaving the context. It similar to how Demonbane was hyped up and held out to be that mighty being, but it was downgraded several levels after careful consideration.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

If almost everybody else here can remain mature and civilised and avoid toxic incendiary false accusations, why do you have to obsessively stick at it like an Energizer Bunny, despite being warned to stop?

I am not attacking you, I merely find you to be extremely dishonest in how you always like to victimize yourself as the only sane person amidst a sea of insanity in the DC threads.

You make ridiculous requests like splitting off every major profile for every writer which is not remotely acceptable for any series and shows your rampant anti-Comicbook bias and you agree and mass-kudos any random user who shows up with the desire to downgrade comics while also deliberately not tagging staff members who support the series because you know they'll be against it, when in literally any other thread you mass-tag staff almost first thing.

 

[Greenshifter]

But it doesn't tho? (Size upscaling)

Superman_Confidential_Vol_1_9.jpg (200×312) (nocookie.net) for instance. Like whenever Superman uses a boom tube to get to New Genesis/Apokolyps he has the same size as the inhabitans of that realm or else there would be no comic lol, Supertown which is the capital of New Genesis is another example.

Apokolips: Supergirl went to Apokolips without a boom tube and was smaller than Granny Goodness as a result, maintaining her original physical size.

Deagonx also agrees on the characters getting rescaled by boom tubes. His argument was of course that they only have a finite size in comparison to the New Gods when not rescaled thus that the New Gods aren't dimensionally superior. Ultima then debunked this notion and thus you end up with characters being rescaled resulting in being on the same dimensional level as the New Gods and also being physically comparable to them which means they have a higher dimensional tier in these realms when arriving through a boom tube and thus them defeating the New Gods there not being an outlier but them just scaling.

 

[Confluctor]

That relies too heavily on headcanon tho lol. Downscaling, it was shown. Upscaling? Never explicitly stated. And it doesn't mean that everyone from the 4th dimension is bigger than a Universe...

 

[Antvasima]

Matthew:

For gods sakes, I am not rampantly anti-comicbook. I effing grew up with these fictions and love the classic characters and stories. I just strongly disagree with the current editorial directions of the books. That's it, and you have kept rabidly attacking me over and over with false accusations like a shark smelling blood in the water.

There would be a much better case for you being biased in terms of selectively favouring this verse than me disfavouring it, given that I have a very long history of obsessively trying to strive for accuracy regardless if I like or dislike a verse, and being as polite and respectful as I can while doing so, whereas your history is filled with an ongoing need to start fights with and provoke other members of this community.

I also never try to present myself as the only rational and sane person in this community, if that is what you refer to, so I have no idea where you dragged up that idea.

I also just want to add some extra statistics keys for different writer interpretations of the cosmology, given that we are not able to fit so many interpretations under one umbrella, and we need to at least acknowledge that there are major inconsistencies, and also think that ONLY giving DC Comics a free pass regarding the fiction-reality transcendence hierarchy and author avatar issue with The Overvoid and The Writer is very dishonest.

And I did tag several knowledgeable members, but admit that I did not involve you personally, since I know that you have a tendency to turn completely unreasonable when this subject is brought up, as you proved above.

I also have a tendency to give lots of kudos to people that I think are making a good effort to help out, regardless if I really agree with them or not, but after reconsidering earlier, I removed them in this case, since it could be misunderstood.

Also, all of your past complaining about the Bleach fans being toxic and unreasonable currently makes you look like a massive hypocrite.

 

[Greenshifter]

That relies too heavily on headcanon tho lol. Downscaling, it was shown. Upscaling? Never explicitly stated. And it doesn't mean that everyone from the 4th dimension is bigger than a Universe...

Ehm, I am failing to follow your argument. If everyone from the sphere wasn't bigger than a universe then they wouldn't be low 1-C or higher pretty sure (see note). So you are saying that the New Gods are bigger than the characters in their original form, yet you also say that when these characters are the same size as the New Gods in New Genesis, that they aren't upscaled but also in their original form... That gives quite the contradiction.

From Ultima and DontTalkDT's Q&A: "A: One of the more straightforward ways to qualify for Tier 2 and up through higher dimensions is by affecting whole higher-dimensional universes which can embed the whole of lower-dimensional ones within themselves. For example: A cosmology where the entirety of our 3-dimensional universe is in fact a subset of a much greater 4-dimensional space, or generalizations of this same scenario to higher numbers of dimensions; i.e A cosmology where the four-dimensional spacetime continuum is just the infinitesimal surface of a 5-dimensional object, and etc."

Pretty sure DC is one of these cases.

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, given that Matthew deliberately keeps turning this thread intensely toxic, despite my earlier efforts to calmly explain myself and try to be reasonable, I will lock it for the time being. Perhaps AKM can help out later.

 

[Antvasima]

LuciferDC099 wanted me to post the following message here for him:

Cosmology

▪ Well, after the Multiversity and Convergence the number of universes became infinite because Pre-Crisis Multiverse was brought back. DanDidio confirmed that after Convergence number of universes became infinite and there may even be more than one Multiverse, later in another interview Grant stated that it isn't just another Multiverse there are actually an endless number of Multiverses in the DCU. In The Multiversity: Guidebook (full) it was stated that the Orrery of Worlds which contains 52 universes is the Local Multiverse, later Grant confirmed that Orrery of Worlds is only one bubble multiverse and there are potentially infinite bubble multiverses which have various number of universes like 50 or 100. Also this "known universes" is a thing even in the current cosmology, in the Doomsday Clock it was stated that after the COIE, Earth-1 became Earth-1985 which is unexplored even today. Also Earths like Earth-2, Earth-1985, Earth-52 etc. exist because everytime when a change occurs in the Metaverse, Multiverse grows to preserve every era of Superman.

▪ Hypertime is the interconnected web of timelines which comprise all reality. It also encompasses old Pre-Crisis realities and non-canon realities such as All-Star. Even 52 universes were formed via Hypertime. Grant stated that Hypertime is 3-dimensional time which is automatically Low 1-C. Hypertime being higher-dimensional time is very reasonable because it contains all line-times.

▪ Bleedspace is Low 1-C because it's the all-enclosing Bulk (which is 5-D according to brane cosmology) which encompasses all 4-D universes. 5-D Bleed was supported in the Multiversity.

Perpetua, Mar Novu, Mobius and Alpheus

▪ True forms of Perpetua and Monitor brothers (it was stated their powers are diminished on the lower planes of the Multiverse) are more powerful than Mr. Mxyzptlk who is Low 1-C. They also are more powerful than Thought Robot/Mandrakk who exists in the Monitor Sphere which is the highest realm of the Multiverse which is at least 13-dimensional (if you want to count all comics then Monitor Sphere will be innumerable-dimensional) as the good/bad side of every dichotomy.

 

[Antvasima]

More from LuciferDC099:

I haven't read the last issues of Death Metal, but if Perpetua and TDK threatened to destroy Bleedspace then their in-multiverse versions can be Low 1-C.

Note: DanDidio was co-publisher of DC Comics at that time and what Grant Morrison stated in interviews was supported in comics. I can prove that.