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So I've seen the profile for Perpetua and she has two separate keys: Pre-Seventh Force Unlocked | Post-Seventh Force Unlocked

There are a lot of things that are a tad bit of a misnomer between these two keys. I rather we break it down into 3 keys section:

The first key would be Pre-Seventh Force Unlocked which would go over her power before the Legion of Doom retrieve the Totality during the fight with the Justice League.

The second key would be Post-Seventh Force Unlocked which would go over the time Perpetua had control over the Totality and her “powers” nearing what it once was.

The third key would be her state prior to being locked away in the Source Wall. Which we could call it Pre-Source Wall or Unseen Hand when she was first called upon with the materials the Source sent her.


Pre-Seventh Force Unlocked:

We know Perpetua during this time she was free of the Source Wall and much of her power was diminished as the destruction of the Source Wall drained her. (Justice League Annual Vol.4 #1)


In her diminished state, she was capable of birthing planets and galaxies around her fingers. (Justice League Vol.4 #19)

If Perpetua were ever connected to the source of her power she would then have the power capable of reshaping the Multiverse. Then use that fuel to destroy her superior that comes from the Greater Omniverse. Cap ale of growing an army that will destroy all the Universe in Existence. (Justice League Vol.4 #26)

With all the hatefulness and the villains working in tandem to collect the pieces of the Totality to replenish Perpetua's power. This is a piece called Unfaithfulness and it's used to link to the mind of all the selfishness in the world as it works as Crisis Energy. (Justice League Vol.4 #29)

When the Legion of Doom collects the making pieces of the Totality by harassing the Dark Energies of Creation then Perpetua would restring the Multiverse and make it again through Crisis Energy. (Justice League Vol.4 #30)

She could create an aura that repels attacks from the heroes as a sort of shield. Cable of taking on the Ultra-Monitor while still being weakened. (Justice League Vol.1 #33)


So from all that, we know that she is capable of rivaling her son in the Multiverse, where they're weaker than they are in the 6th Dimension. Due to her being able to create planets and galaxies. She can start at anywhere from 3-C to 3-A.

Post-Seventh Force Unlocked:

When the Legion of Doom managed to revert all the psychic minds of the Earth using the opposite of Justice, they managed to revert the Totality powers to Perpetua. When they did this she was now capable of reshaping the Multiverse in her image. (Justice League Vol.4 #34)

While in this state she managed to unbind the Ultra-Monitor and revert her son, Mobius, back into his Crisis on Infinite Earth form. (Justice League Vol.4 #34)

Using her powers and recharging with the help of Luthor’s technology as well as Anti-Monitor destroyed a Universe and will do it to her perverted 52 worlds. (Justice League Vol.4 #35)


She does this by inflicting fear and agony to power her machine. She does this because it amasses Crisis Energy fueling her powersenough to reshape reality. (Dark Nights: Death Metal - Multiverse Ends Vol.1 #1)

The collateral effect of destroying the Multiverse was burning the last possibility in Hypertime and breaking apart the Bleedspace. (Dark Nights: Death Metal - Rise of the New Gods Vol. #1)

She in this state can destroy the Universe by collecting fear and energy. Her powers keep increasing as she is drawing Crisis Energy due to her fears and Batman Who Laughs supplementing her a bit from the Dark Multiverse. She would start from 3-A varies with Crisis Energy up to 2-C.

Pre-Source Wall/Unseen Hand:

During very ancient history there was a mother who built a predatory Universe before our own using the seven dark energies of Creation. This dark energy was locked away with the Source Wall and reverted back to the original Totality.

This mother was Perpetua, a Supercelestial who made the Multiverse using the material given by the Source.

She made the Multiverse in the tripartite form which was the Dimensional Superstructure in which the realms would grow into a Multiverse.

She did this in the 6th Dimension about 20 billion years ago. However, she rejected the notion of death because she wanted to see her Multiverse grow rather than have to die for it to let it grow. This is why she used the Totality that the Source gave her to create a life in which she later instead use the dark energies to sustain her predatory Universe.

Her sons called her out for it and warned the Judges by informing the Source itself. She was collecting fears to use Crisis Energy to sustain that Creation but she alongside the powers she collected was locked away. The Source remade it and put it back and the species she created to normal life.

In conclusion, Perpetua made the realms that evolved into the Multiverse. As a member of species called the Hands task with birthing reality in the Greater Omniverse. She is Low 1-C during this state.
 
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I think it would be more straightforward to just rename the keys "Within the Multiverse | True State" like her sons and Ultra-Monitor have, and then downgrade the first key to 2-C given that her main thing is that she scales to her sons in that state.
Low 2-C varies with Crisis Energy | Low 1-C

Does that seem feasible?
 
Just 2-C, as that is what her sons are at.
I just hope I clarify some stuff as well.

The totality of the power you selfishly hoarded is not the Totality but rather the energy she used in her predatory Universe to fight off what the Source would send.

Also, the Totality was a thing already formed by the Source which becomes her when she twisted into the 7 dark forces.

Also, she didn't create any of the forces they naturally came as the Multiverse did which she only made the realm that grew into it.

I feel if people read the story properly they understand she's not as powerful as people put her because I've seen Perpetua > Source/Presence
 
I think Perpetua's tier should work on a similar way to the Anti-Monitor.

Here's what i propose, "2-C, higher with Crisis Energy up to 2-A | Low 1-C"

The Low Multiverse level tier is for being superior to her children and stalemating against the Ultra-Monitor.

The Multiverse level+ tier is because, she had destroyed most of the multiverse universe-by-universe whose repercussions of her actions echoed through time, damaging Hypertime and the Speed Force. I know it was the combined result of her actions and the multiversal war she started that damaged Hypertime, but it still matters.

The Low Complex Multiverse tier is before her imprisonment in the Source Wall, before getting diminished.
 
Just to further clarify my reasoning for level 2-A, the reasoning behind such a tier for Perpetua is mostly based on how much destruction she has done It wasn't like after destroying a universe, the rest of the multiverse was fine, even though she was destroying one universe at a time, the whole system was slowly falling apart because of her like Time, Hypertime, Bleed, Sphere of the Gods (New Genesis and Apokolips and most godly forces), though the beginning of the Bleed's collapse was the result of her fight against the Darkest Knight. She could not reach such a tier without Crisis Energy.
 
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And for the Darkest Knight (The Batman Who Laughs) who scale to Perpetua, he should be 2-A. I'm not sure though if he should scale higher given that he threatened to kill the Hands? What do you think?
 
Given that Perpetua managed to give him a challenge, he should not be infinitely stronger, yes.
 
And for the Darkest Knight (The Batman Who Laughs) who scale to Perpetua, he should be 2-A. I'm not sure though if he should scale higher given that he threatened to kill the Hands? What do you think?
He should be on the same scale as Perpetua. Like, Perpetua needs Crisis Energy at the base he should be 2-C. However, he should be Low 1-C as he “varies up” since unlike Perpetua he never really had a diminished state within the Multiverse.
 
Another final thing about this scaling is where do we rank Dr. Manhattan in all of this? Some people said that the Justice League used a fraction of Dr. Manhattan to fight a Crisis Energy-Amped Perpetua. Some says they are equal. What do you think ?
 
He should be on the same scale as Perpetua. Like, Perpetua needs Crisis Energy at the base he should be 2-C. However, he should be Low 1-C as he “varies up” since unlike Perpetua he never really had a diminished state within the Multiverse.
I was thinking that TDK scale directly to Crisis Energy Perpetua, hence the straight 2-A tier.
 
They are probably roughly equal, given that the Darkest Knight had the powers of a version of Doctor Manhattan, and had to exert himself to beat Perpetua.
 
Another final thing about this scaling is where do we rank Dr. Manhattan in all of this? Some people said that the Justice League used a fraction of Dr. Manhattan to fight a Crisis Energy-Amped Perpetua. Some says they are equal. What do you think ?
I originally thought he was more powerful but I realize his only about partially equal. The reason why is due to the fact the “fraction” is whatever they gathered of the reality he tried to fix.

They also disrupt his power to take on Perpetua who was slightly stronger than her diminished state shortly after there were 6 piles of earth left and they only barely stalemated her.

Plus it doesn't make sense if he was that much more powerful. Since Darkest Knight managed to beat her when he was at her peak. This was after he had the extra powers diverting the energy from the Mobius Chair.

He should start at 2-C, not 2-A. His profile should be near equal to Perpetua just nonseparating of keys.
 
Actually, since he doesn't have a key split, we could instead say 2-C, possibly Low 1-C.

Attack Potency: Low Multiverse level (Overpowered and killed Perpetua. Created fifty-two universes and threatened to surround Earth-0 with them, which would've resulted in the corruption and weaponization of the Multiverse. Threatened to destroy the six universes remaining in the Orrery of Worlds and the Bleedspace during his battle against Perpetua), possibly Low Complex Multiverse level (Deemed to be a deadly threat to The Hands of the Source on multiple occasions)
 
I personally trust your sense of judgement in this area, but it depends on what the others think.
 
Okay so from what I understand we:

Perpetua's tier will be changed for 2-C, higher with Crisis Energy up to 2-A | Low 1-C

Dr. Manhattan's tier will be changed for 2-C

The Darkest Knight (The Batman Who Laughs) tier will be changed for 2-C, possibly Low 1-C.

Is that right?
 
Okay so from what I understand we:

Perpetua's tier will be changed for 2-C, higher with Crisis Energy up to 2-A | Low 1-C

Dr. Manhattan's tier will be changed for 2-C

The Darkest Knight (The Batman Who Laughs) tier will be changed for 2-C, possibly Low 1-C.

Is that right?
Yeah that looks good to me.
 
Okay so from what I understand we:

Perpetua's tier will be changed for 2-C, higher with Crisis Energy up to 2-A | Low 1-C

Dr. Manhattan's tier will be changed for 2-C

The Darkest Knight (The Batman Who Laughs) tier will be changed for 2-C, possibly Low 1-C.

Is that right?
Manhattan should be straight Low 1-C. BWL's powers had to grow and he had to get used to it. If not at least have possibly Low 1-C because he is still superior to everyone but the Hands.
 
Manhattan should be straight Low 1-C. BWL's powers had to grow and he had to get used to it. If not at least have possibly Low 1-C because he is still superior to everyone but the Hands.
But Manhattan's power was used to fight against a diminished Perpetua who had all Crisis Energy at this moment. So, you agree that Dr. Manhattan is stronger than Perpetua?
 
But Manhattan's power was used to fight against a diminished and Crisis Energy-powered Perpetua who is 2-A. So, you agree that Dr. Manhattan is stronger than Perpetua?
I mean looking outside that logic. 5th Dimension is Low 1-C and by extension, Mxy is Low 1-C. It just makes sense but I could see why Manhattan may seem lower.

I think he should be in the higher interpretation of a diminished Perpetua. He could just be 2-A but I'm still unsure. Low 1-C or possibly Low 1-C just seems safer and more logical.
 
I mean looking outside that logic. 5th Dimension is Low 1-C and by extension, Mxy is Low 1-C. It just makes sense but I could see why Manhattan may seem lower.

I think he should be in the higher interpretation of a diminished Perpetua. He could just be 2-A but I'm still unsure. Low 1-C or possibly Low 1-C just seems safer and more logical.
Low 1-C for Mr. Mxyzptlk (Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV's Cosmology) is debatable.
 
Low 1-C for Mr. Mxyzptlk (Grant Morrison, Scott Snyder and James Tynion IV's Cosmology) is debatable.
Yeah unless we fix that I don't think Manhattan should be rated that low. With a content revision on Mxy then I believe that it's fine to leave Manhttan at either 2-C or maybe 2-A. This Perpetua was at the height of her power similar to her original status as one of the Hands from the Greater Omniverse.

I personally find Hecate and Upside Downman > Mister Mxyzptlk. So 2-C Mxy should be more logical. I mean Godhood Darkseid in theory is stronger than Mxy and he's rated below Tier 1.
 
Yeah unless we fix that I don't think Manhattan should be rated that low. With a content revision on Mxy then I believe that it's fine to leave Manhttan at either 2-C or maybe 2-A. This Perpetua was at the height of her power similar to her original status as one of the Hands from the Greater Omniverse.

I personally find Hecate and Upside Downman > Mister Mxyzptlk. So 2-C Mxy should be more logical. I mean Godhood Darkseid in theory is stronger than Mxy and he's rated below Tier 1.
Okay we should probably wait for Dr. Manhattan's tier then.
 
Perpetua should be 2-C varies with Crisis Energy. 2-A is very conspicuous to what she could achieve with Crisis Energy and we're not sure whether she could just affect the stcmrfture with ease. I rather we keep it 2-C varies with Crisis Energy no need for the “up to 2-A.”
 
Perpetua should be 2-C varies with Crisis Energy. 2-A is very conspicuous to what she could achieve with Crisis Energy and we're not sure whether she could just affect the stcmrfture with ease. I rather we keep it 2-C varies with Crisis Energy no need for the “up to 2-A.”
What do the rest of you think that we should do here, and in general in this thread?
 
Why is base Perpetua only 2-C when she's fought the Ultra-Monitor. And why is Ultra-Monitor only 2-C, and not 2-A?
 
I think that 2-C, higher with Crisis Energy up to 2-A is good for her. The Multiverse level+ tier for Perpetua is purely based on the magnitude of the destruction she wrought, which slowly crumbled the multiversal system like Orrery, Hypertime, Speed Force, Sphere of the Gods.
 
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I think that 2-C, higher with Crisis Energy up to 2-A is good for her. The Multiverse level+ tier for Perpetua is purely based on the magnitude of the destruction she wrought, which slowly crumbled the multiversal system like Orrery, Hypertime, Speed Force, Sphere of the Gods.
Okay.

So what should we do here then exactly?
 
SoG feats and Source Wall feat were rather the Totality which she didn't possess yet dispursting its energy across all Creation.

She's not 2-A, she should just be 2-C varies with Crisis Energy. She can't recreate with Crisis Energy but reshape the Multiverse and it only applies to the Orrery. Hypertime was a collateral effect in which the Multiverse was breaking down causing it to lose possibility. Perpetua being released didn't help but time already was broken prior to her release.
 
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