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MCU Phase 4 General Discussion Thread

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Dalesean027 said:
This doesn't matter as she draws upon the power of the dark dimension to do so therefore it wouldn't be an outlier
Click to expand...
Given this, what are the exact statements for:
1. Her drawing upon the Dark Dimension's Power
2. Stephen being superior to her.

After all, if she's only Low 2-C via a certain amp, how do we know him superior isn't just in regards to her base, or his potential, or with him also drawing on the Dark Dimension?
Dalesean027 said:
It's this though we known the MCU is at least generally made after our own IRL universe and that for this case universe means timeline(that's how the watcher refers to each timeline he views, as "universes") so it's still the collapse of a universe sized spacetime.
Click to expand...
It isn't a spatially infinite universe, though, especially if we're basing it on the real world.
& the universe is still deteriorating as the two Stephens fight. How do we know the timeline wasn't ALSO deteriorating? If the Universe is ending, & "Universe" means timeline, & the Time Stone abuse was causing the destruction of the timeline, how do we know that it's still infinite when it's progressively getting destroyed?

Also, MIND the preceeding text. In what you're responding to (Which you quoted as "Such as our universe)") here, it said, in part:

"However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:"
Presumably, it still needs to have all 4 dimensions (Length, Depth, Width & Time), & here, at least 1 or at least of those are here only partially.

Regarding the full text of what your excerpt is from:
"A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified."
....As in, regarding that: I'm not entirely sure what "large extra dimensional space" & "dimensions that are (not) microscopic / compactified" means.
Dalesean027 said:
This here it still fits this due to it being modeled after our own universe
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I mean, I'd argue the MCU has some notable differences, given time travel & such are things in it, but I'm not sure I entirely understand the MCU's cosmology &/or universal/dimensional structure. Still, regarding this part of your post that I'm quoting here, I feel like I kind of understand where you're coming from.
Dalesean027 said:
I'm very confused he still remains unharmed in his barrier even after the timeline is destroyed so even though he couldn't stop the rest of the destruction he could still withstand it when it came to defending himself just not a larger area. Also we see that this isn't just the regular destruction of the universe either, we see christine is in the barrier with him yet still manages to be erased along we with the timeline
Click to expand...
Yeah, Strange protected himself -& his barrier, I guess- but it's questionable if that's actually him slowing down a Low 2-C destruction event, or him just protecting himself from being erased. After all, the whole timeline is being destroyed/erased, no?
Also: "just not a larger area" feels like part of the issue to me. It's not the whole of 3D space, & the timeline was already partially destroyed before he started trying to stop it ending. So if the timeline is partially gone, it seems like he was fighting the end of a FINITE timeline, as opposed to an INFINITE timeline.
 
^All of that is just headache inducing tbh, not to sound rude by I think @Imaginym you're overthinking and over-complicating the subject matter.

As for the first point, The Anicent One literally states in episode she needed to draw power from the Dark Dimension in order to perform the timeline spilt (which happens to be the domain of a 2-C character).

As for everything else, for my own sanity I'm going to leave well enough alone.
 
Mcu Dormmamu 2-c confirmed?
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
^All of that is just headache inducing tbh, not to sound rude by I think @Imaginym you're overthinking and over-complicating the subject matter.

As for the first point, The Anicent One literally states in episode she needed to draw power from the Dark Dimension in order to perform the timeline spilt (which happens to be the domain of a 2-C character).

As for everything else, for my own sanity I'm going to leave well enough alone.
Click to expand...
 
My hope is that when Strange gets to his full potential we'll see a full battle against Dormammu. I don't what's better, if he's the main villain in an Avengers movie, or just a Doctor Strange movie.
 
Imaginym said:
Given this, what are the exact statements for:
1. Her drawing upon the Dark Dimension's Power
2. Stephen being superior to her.

After all, if she's only Low 2-C via a certain amp, how do we know him superior isn't just in regards to her base, or his potential, or with him also drawing on the Dark Dimension?
Click to expand...
Considering they both know she can amp herself using the dark dimension and she still considers strange to be superior to herself then we see what we saw in this episode then personally I don't see anything contradicting such 🤷‍♀️
Imaginym said:
It isn't a spatially infinite universe, though, especially if we're basing it on the real world.
& the universe is still deteriorating as the two Stephens fight. How do we know the timeline wasn't ALSO deteriorating? If the Universe is ending, & "Universe" means timeline, & the Time Stone abuse was causing the destruction of the timeline, how do we know that it's still infinite when it's progressively getting destroyed?
Click to expand...
Universe is only confirmed to actually be set up for destruction if the absolute point is successful bypassed by evil strange if he hadn't succeeded then it wouldn't be more than a visual effect I suppose so since the timeline was split there were two potential paths where things could go that were in collision with one another either way Strange would have to be made whole and timelines would have to become one yet again the destruction of the universe would only occur in the case that evil strange won, became whole, and overwrote an absolute point.
Imaginym said:
"However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:"
Presumably, it still needs to have all 4 dimensions (Length, Depth, Width & Time), & here, at least 1 or at least of those are here only partially.
Click to expand...
All of these exist in the universe there's a past, present, and future there's no question about that there's no partial existence of any of these they exist in full all four dimensions and they are all destroyed with the destruction of the timeline
Imaginym said:
Regarding the full text of what your excerpt is from:
"A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified."
....As in, regarding that: I'm not entirely sure what "large extra dimensional space" & "dimensions that are (not) microscopic / compactified" means
Click to expand...
Nor do I
Imaginym said:
mean, I'd argue the MCU has some notable differences, given time travel & such are things in it, but I'm not sure I entirely understand the MCU's cosmology &/or universal/dimensional structure. Still, regarding this part of your post that I'm quoting here, I feel like I kind of understand where you're coming from.
Click to expand...
That's the same for a lot of properties but it doesn't change that the base is fundamentally modeled after our own universe that goes for each timeline we known there's no differences to any of them fundamentally other than choices made by characters that lead to different events
Imaginym said:
Yeah, Strange protected himself -& his barrier, I guess- but it's questionable if that's actually him slowing down a Low 2-C destruction event, or him just protecting himself from being erased
Click to expand...
Considering he pushed at it and was saying he's trying to fix it I'd say he definitely was doing more than initially defending himself from the destruction
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
^All of that is just headache inducing tbh, not to sound rude by I think @Imaginym you're overthinking and over-complicating the subject matter.
Click to expand...
I'd have to agree somewhat with indeed being overthinking because it's flat out stated and shown what's happening in some of these cases even with things like strange literally having a entire conversation about the restoration of the timeline while holding back it's destruction even going to the watcher for assistance whom we're flat out told could do the feat himself but wouldn't as strange was warned of this and chose his path so his only option then was to just defend himself
 
Hopefully this specified some things as well, I watched back on some stuff to make sure I'm remembering correctly
 
Dalesean027 said:
Considering they both know she can amp herself using the dark dimension and she still considers strange to be superior to herself then we see what we saw in this episode then personally I don't see anything contradicting such 🤷‍♀️
Click to expand...
What specifically do you mean "what we saw in this episode"?
"Strange is superior to The Ancient One (When she isn't channeling The Dark Dimension) in power (As opposed to potential, & without him channeling The Dark Dimension) because Strange was slowing down the destruction of the universe (Despite a lack of visible signs it was showing down, & granting resistance to EE doesn't mean exerting a given AP.) & also this evidence is why Strange is superior to The Ancient One"?
Dalesean027 said:
Universe is only confirmed to actually be set up for destruction if the absolute point is successful bypassed by evil strange if he hadn't succeeded then it wouldn't be more than a visual effect I suppose so since the timeline was split there were two potential paths where things could go that were in collision with one another either way Strange would have to be made whole and timelines would have to become one yet again the destruction of the universe would only occur in the case that evil strange won, became whole, and overwrote an absolute point.
Click to expand...
If I recall correctly, we could see people & buildings, immobile, fading & blackening & starting to disappear, even before the 2 Stranges started fighting. Am I not mistaken?
Because if so, the universe was being destroyed BEFORE he achieved the power to bypass the absolute point by absorbing himself.
Dalesean027 said:
All of these exist in the universe there's a past, present, and future there's no question about that there's no partial existence of any of these they exist in full all four dimensions and they are all destroyed with the destruction of the timeline
Click to expand...
But the spatial dimensions visbly aren't infinite (Black void encroaching all over, barely a city left.) at the time Strange starts fighting the end of the universe, & if it's deleting the timeline, why would there be enough Past or Future for there to be an infinite spatial dimension?
Dalesean027 said:
Considering he pushed at it and was saying he's trying to fix it I'd say he definitely was doing more than initially defending himself from the destruction
Click to expand...
Yes, but at that point, Strange was a desperate man, who had spent centuries seeking power, seeking the same thing, & he was in denial, trying to change what he had told by The Ancient One was impossible. Impossible to the point that making it possible, that breaking that rule is what breaks the universe.
& visually, we could see in his involuntary shapeshifting, his lack of self-awareness as he speaks to Christine, & his emotions that he was out of control & out of touch.

I'd argue that narratively, it makes no sense for him to be succeeding AT ALL. He is a desperate, explicitly-stated-as-misguided man, in denial of his whole reality.
Him saying "I'll fix it", to me, seems like the words of someone who's just that. Misguided, desperate, & in denial, trying to do the impossible.

Things still get erased -Christine does, at least- in his shield or not, even as he tries to fights it, straining with all his might.
So, without evidence that he is actually having any success, why assume that he is slowing it down?
Dalesean027 said:
I'd have to agree somewhat with indeed being overthinking because it's flat out stated and shown what's happening in some of these cases even with things like strange literally having a entire conversation about the restoration of the timeline while holding back it's destruction even going to the watcher for assistance whom we're flat out told could do the feat himself but wouldn't as strange was warned of this and chose his path so his only option then was to just defend himself
Click to expand...
Unfortunately, I don't remember the dialogue as well as I'd like to be able to, so I'd have to check it again, & I'm not even sure what statements you mean for all of that part of your post. I am sorry for that.


Sorry about the delay in replying. I've been AFK for a while. & again, sorry for any bother.
To paraphrase myself as above, the scaling as is feels weird, with TAO claiming Strange is superior, but not precisely (Future potential, with use of TDD, etc.) in what way, & the basis for that is a feat that seems to lack evidence for him actually succeeding in performing it, doesn't make sense for him to succeed in narratively, & doesn't actually feels like it involves infinite dimensions.
 
Imaginym said:
What specifically do you mean "what we saw in this episode"?
"Strange is superior to The Ancient One (When she isn't channeling The Dark Dimension) in power (As opposed to potential, & without him channeling The Dark Dimension) because Strange was slowing down the destruction of the universe (Despite a lack of visible signs it was showing down, & granting resistance to EE doesn't mean exerting a given AP.) & also this evidence is why Strange is superior to The Ancient One"?
Click to expand...
Considering the strange we saw at the end of the episode I mean and what lack of visual signs are you talking about he literally stops it long enough to converse with the watcher for a bit then it goes right back to things collapsing again as he couldn't continue his hold and even before it collapses for good it literally stutters one last time showing he's pushing back but it's all for naught and it just ends up being collapsing quickly right after.
Imaginym said:
If I recall correctly, we could see people & buildings, immobile, fading & blackening & starting to disappear, even before the 2 Stranges started fighting. Am I not mistaken?
Because if so, the universe was being destroyed BEFORE he achieved the power to bypass the absolute point by absorbing himself.
Click to expand...
And as we saw that the ancient one is literally saying it's only if he can bypass the absolute point will the universe be destroyed hence me saying this↓↓
Dalesean027 said:
Universe is only confirmed to actually be set up for destruction if the absolute point is successful bypassed by evil strange if he hadn't succeeded then it wouldn't be more than a visual effect I suppose so since the timeline was split there were two potential paths where things could go that were in collision with one another either way Strange would have to be made whole and timelines would have to become one yet again the destruction of the universe would only occur in the case that evil strange won, became whole, and overwrote an absolute point.
Click to expand...
It's not being destroyed yet the threat is simply there and the battle has to be fought to determine which course of action things will go
Imaginym said:
But the spatial dimensions visbly aren't infinite (Black void encroaching all over, barely a city left.) at the time Strange starts fighting the end of the universe, & if it's deleting the timeline, why would there be enough Past or Future for there to be an infinite spatial dimension?
Click to expand...
At this point are you simply arguing he's doing this through ED because either way strange getting the raw power to destroy absolute points in time leads to timeline destruction
Imaginym said:
Yes, but at that point, Strange was a desperate man, who had spent centuries seeking power, seeking the same thing, & he was in denial, trying to change what he had told by The Ancient One was impossible. Impossible to the point that making it possible, that breaking that rule is what breaks the universe.
& visually, we could see in his involuntary shapeshifting, his lack of self-awareness as he speaks to Christine, & his emotions that he was out of control & out of touch.

I'd argue that narratively, it makes no sense for him to be succeeding AT ALL. He is a desperate, explicitly-stated-as-misguided man, in denial of his whole reality.
Him saying "I'll fix it", to me, seems like the words of someone who's just that. Misguided, desperate, & in denial, trying to do the impossible.

Things still get erased -Christine does, at least- in his shield or not, even as he tries to fights it, straining with all his might.
Click to expand...
I completely agree I've already said as much and explained why he wouldn't succeed in fixing it regardless before but we still see him able to push back some even if he was going to fail regardless he did stutter the destruction albeit for time enough to have a brief conversation before it then starts to quickly collapse again
Imaginym said:
Unfortunately, I don't remember the dialogue as well as I'd like to be able to, so I'd have to check it again, & I'm not even sure what statements you mean for all of that part of your post. I am sorry for that.
Click to expand...
It's all good I've been busy myself so I'm kinda taking this time rn to try and quickly address these points and watch back
Imaginym said:
Sorry about the delay in replying. I've been AFK for a while. & again, sorry for any bother.
To paraphrase myself as above, the scaling as is feels weird, with TAO claiming Strange is superior, but not precisely (Future potential, with use of TDD, etc.) in what way, & the basis for that is a feat that seems to lack evidence for him actually succeeding in performing it, doesn't make sense for him to succeed in narratively, & doesn't actually
Click to expand...
I suppose we'll have to wait for his appearance later on to see how he gets to meet with the characters of the other universe's and possibly get more clarification but I'd say at the very minimum the compromise would be at low 2-C via ED
 
I'd say about how he became Star Lord instead of Peter Quill and the events of the episode
 
Ya know one thing I'll take from this episode is that the TVA honestly didn't need to prune every reality because as we saw some will simply take care of themselves and behold their own catastrophies destroying themselves
Coolboy6 said:
I’m working on T’Challa Star Lord’s profile at the moment and im not sure what I should write for the summary
Click to expand...
Prince T'Challa, son of King T'Chaka, was abducted by Ravagers from his home country of Wakanda at a young age. He grew up with the Ravagers, where over time he taught them to change their way of life. Now stealing from the wicked and over-privileged of the galaxy to help the less-fortunate, becoming adored icons to the galaxy and he gained the name Star-Lord.

(literally took this from his wiki page)
 
T’Challa as Star Lord doesn’t really have anything that Quill doesn’t have. If anything, he is a lesser version of Quill in regards to combat due to having less time to show off. Making a profile is fine and all but with nothing new to add, it isn’t nearly as interesting as a Strange who went and did a bunch of new things that gave him a boatload of new techs.
 
Dalesean027 said:
Prince T'Challa, son of King T'Chaka, was abducted by Ravagers from his home country of Wakanda at a young age. He grew up with the Ravagers, where over time he taught them to change their way of life. Now stealing from the wicked and over-privileged of the galaxy to help the less-fortunate, becoming adored icons to the galaxy and he gained the name Star-Lord.

(literally took this from his wiki page)
Click to expand...
How about this? T’Challa, known as Star Lord was the prince of Wakanda and son of T’Chaka before he went outside of Wakanda to explore the world outside and got abducted by the Ravagers who were supposed to go kidnap Peter Quill but instead they got T’Challa
 
I'd mention that instead of Yondu looking for Peter himself, he handed out the assignment to his crew instead.
 
Sorry to once again bring this up, but just to be sure:
How do we know the timeline hadn't been so destroyed that it was no longer infinite?
If the past & future are gone & inaccessible, then the timeline is finite, right?
& shouldn't they be gone because the whole premise & fact is the universe/timeline is being destroyed/imploding?
& shouldn't they be mostly gone on the assumption that space & time would disappear at similar rates? At the point Strange is struggling, the screen is mostly gone, to the point of being a black void, right?
I mean, the universe, in all 4 dimensions, is fully destroyed, but not all at once, & when Strange is fighting it, it's not entirely gone, but it also seems like it wouldn't be fully temporally infinite anymore, assuming it's been destroyed to a similar temporal extent as it has been spatially.

Again, sorry for any bother.
(Also, for what it's worth, due to deliberation elsewhere, I feel that I can more see the case for the undoing of the Absolute Point as a Low 2-C feat done via Strange's Power. This post is more mostly my concern about justification rather than tiering.)
 
Imaginym said:
Sorry to once again bring this up, but just to be sure:
How do we know the timeline hadn't been so destroyed that it was no longer infinite?
If the past & future are gone & inaccessible, then the timeline is finite, right?
& shouldn't they be gone because the whole premise & fact is the universe/timeline is being destroyed/imploding?
& shouldn't they be mostly gone on the assumption that space & time would disappear at similar rates? At the point Strange is struggling, the screen is mostly gone, to the point of being a black void, right?
I mean, the universe, in all 4 dimensions, is fully destroyed, but not all at once, & when Strange is fighting it, it's not entirely gone, but it also seems like it wouldn't be fully temporally infinite anymore, assuming it's been destroyed to a similar temporal extent as it has been spatially.

Again, sorry for any bother.
(Also, for what it's worth, due to deliberation elsewhere, I feel that I can more see the case for the undoing of the Absolute Point as a Low 2-C feat done via Strange's Power. This post is more mostly my concern about justification rather than tiering.)
Click to expand...
Yeah I think we've gotten to the end of this, the timeline I suppose us finite since he can't go back to an earlier point after it's already been destroyed to the point that it was when he was left alone in the void but then again destroying the absolute point is literally strange destroying a concept of the universe something that can't be done even through regular means of time travel idk if that helps but at this point I honestly can't speak beyond speculation and I have no problems saying as much😅😂 I'm fine with the justifications changing but yeah I think we've exhausted as much as we can with this and should just wait to see more. There's definitely some work that can be put into this so I'm glad you asked as much as you did.
Imaginym said:
Also, for what it's worth, due to deliberation elsewhere, I feel that I can more see the case for the undoing of the Absolute Point as a Low 2-C feat done via Strange's Power
Click to expand...
This I think is the best way to put it instead of using him holding back the destruction somewhat especially since he needed to become whole and absorb several being to amp his raw power to the point where he could complete his but ultimately destroy his timeline in the process
 
Coolboy6 said:
How about how smart T’Challa Star Lord is?
Click to expand...
He devised that whole plan with nebula and outsmarted the collector and we also know he's done several really famously smart and clever plans as well so at least gifted intelligence I'd say.

He should also have social influencing for turning Thanos
 
Colonel_Krukov said:
I really dislike that this is a thing and feels more like an excuse to have Thanos be a good guy.
Click to expand...
Lmao yeah that was very random but I think it was still fun despite that I think having that is still valid since thanos no matter what has been around centuries before T'Challa and no one else could convince him otherwise
 
Dalesean027 said:
Yeah I think we've gotten to the end of this, the timeline I suppose us finite since he can't go back to an earlier point after it's already been destroyed to the point that it was when he was left alone in the void but then again destroying the absolute point is literally strange destroying a concept of the universe something that can't be done even through regular means of time travel idk if that helps but at this point I honestly can't speak beyond speculation and I have no problems saying as much😅😂 I'm fine with the justifications changing but yeah I think we've exhausted as much as we can with this and should just wait to see more. There's definitely some work that can be put into this so I'm glad you asked as much as you did.
Click to expand...
Yeah. If the timeline is finite at the point, it's a problem, since he's fighting the destruction of the timeline.
Although maybe it's possible the force of the universe being destroyed was still Low 2-C, even though it wasn't destroying an Infinite Universe anymore? Feels a bit weird for a universe's self-destruction (Or a paradox destroying it.) to be more destructive than necessary, & if it stayed at a consistent power, unless I understand things wrong, the destruction would, mathematically, seem to accelerate, because there's less to destroy as the volume decreases. 2 cubed is 8, but if you take away just 10% of 2, for 1.8, & cube that 1.8, you get 5.832; A lot less than 8 minus 10% of 8.

Though, how much of the past & future, of the timeline is left, is largely based on inferrence. Who knows, maybe there's still an infinite timeline, it's just Strange somehow infinitely sustaining his barrier, trying & failing to time travel back to when things were okay (If the Time Stone even still works/exists.) & being very upset while he holds back the void. It'd be a different Infinite Timeline than what his universe was before, filled with a lot of nothingness, but it might still be infinite
Dalesean027 said:
This I think is the best way to put it instead of using him holding back the destruction somewhat especially since he needed to become whole and absorb several being to amp his raw power to the point where he could complete his but ultimately destroy his timeline in the process
Click to expand...
Yeah, I guess. Some might argue that undoing The Absolute Point was a chain reaction, but seemingly, it was necessary to maintain the universe & undoing it isn't like a Stabilization Feat.
& even then, there's still the The Ancient One scaling, even if there's some ambiguity to her statement.
Coolboy6 said:
How about how smart T’Challa Star Lord is?
Click to expand...
Hopefully you can forgive my asking, but what are his intelligence feats? No offense meant.


Also, shouldn't DSS have Clairvoyance? IIRC, it was stated he had found out where Good Strange was before he BFR'd Good Strange.

Also, regarding Good Thanos, I feel like they made too many genocide jokes. Like, I enjoyed him, but I feel like there could've/should've been more to his character, even though we saw a lot of it in IW & Endgame.
 
Imaginym said:
Hopefully you can forgive my asking, but what are his intelligence feats? No offense meant.
Click to expand...

Dalesean027 said:
He devised that whole plan with nebula and outsmarted the collector and we also know he's done several really famously smart and clever plans
Click to expand...
Imaginym said:
Also, shouldn't DSS have Clairvoyance? IIRC, it was stated he had found out where Good Strange was before he BFR'd Good Strange.
Click to expand...
Yeah it'd have like cross dimensions range since he pulled him from the other timeline while they were still seperated
Imaginym said:
Though, how much of the past & future, of the timeline is left, is largely based on inferrence. Who knows, maybe there's still an infinite timeline, it's just Strange somehow infinitely sustaining his barrier, trying & failing to time travel back to when things were okay (If the Time Stone even still works/exists.) & being very upset while he holds back the void. It'd be a different Infinite Timeline than what his universe was before, filled with a lot of nothingness, but it might still be infinite
Click to expand...
Yeah this honestly is a tricky situation because it's at the point where it's up for inference of how much could be left or even having it all still be there infinitely, we simply don't have enough info or clarity it showings to determine this
Imaginym said:
Yeah, I guess. Some might argue that undoing The Absolute Point was a chain reaction, but seemingly, it was necessary to maintain the universe & undoing it isn't like a Stabilization Feat.
& even then, there's still the The Ancient One scaling, even if there's some ambiguity to her statement.
Click to expand...
Yeah

I'm burnt out after all that there's simply a lot to that
 
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