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Falcon and The Winter Soldier MCU Spoiler Discussion Thread

It was also kind of crazy to see how Zemo was right about literally everything, even though I kind of expected that. He said Karli was too far gone to be reasoned with, and that was correct. He said there was only one way it could end, which was with killing Karli, and that's exactly what happened. Even though Zemo was only on screen for like a few minutes, it was still one of my favorite scenes in that episode. He had his butler kill the remaining Flag Smashers! That was incredibly big brain. Gotta give it up for everyone's favorite dancing Baron, who supplied us with great entertainment, philosophical banter, and a treacherous necessity to the team for a great deal of the series.
Zemo did get stunned a bit by Sam saying "isn't that how Gods talk" in response to his worldview being hypocritical and had no response to that tbf. But overall his purpose in the show mid-season was to steer our heroes down the wrong path and wrong conclusions with his confident beliefs, imo. And Daniel Bruhl did that excellently.

Didn't Batroc also get knocked out in a few hits by Steve without the shield? I think just the fact that he could take hits like that would show he scales. How? idek, it's armure de complot, I guess.
he only got knocked out when Steve pushed him past the door and yeeted him hard af in the face but I guess you can argue Steve wasn't trying earlier on
 
Zemo did get stunned a bit by Sam saying "isn't that how Gods talk" in response to his worldview being hypocritical and had no response to that tbf. But overall his purpose in the show mid-season was to steer our heroes down the wrong path and wrong conclusions with his confident beliefs, imo. And Daniel Bruhl did that excellently.
Yeah, I remember that. I thought that was a solid touch. For me personally, I love when there are villainous and even sometimes heroic characters with a bit of hypocrisy, enough to create interesting dynamics and also flaws that their opposition can point out and generate a possibility for character growth/regression in the process, but not enough so that it's annoying and so frequent that you can't take the character's message seriously at all (looking at you Naruto, saying "hard work and determination" after using the Nine Tails you got from birth from your Hokage dad...). So that was a great touch, imo.


POV: You're at Kroger and tell an Avenger he's getting a movie.
 
Tbh I think John Walker should have been the one to kill Karli. It makes more sense with how the story went, Walker's arc of being a morally grey character, and brings higher stakes for the future too. Sharon was really kinda useless to the plot, ngl
 
Tbh I think John Walker should have been the one to kill Karli. It makes more sense with how the story went, Walker's arc of being a morally grey character, and brings higher stakes for the future too.
Agreed. That would have made sense.

Sharon was really kinda useless to the plot, ngl
I disagree. Like I mentioned earlier, she kind of functioned as Zemo's "exhibit A" for some of the points he made, and showed more of the negatives that resulted from actions the heroes would do (Civil War, which came as a by-product of the Sokovia Accords, which came as a by-product of Age of Ultron, with Ultron being something of the heroes' - specifically Iron Man's - own creation). I do wish they would have done more with her, though.

Not as useless as Valentina.
OK, Valentina didn't really do much. She just kind of functioned as John Walker's hype man, if I'm keeping it a buck-50 with y'all.
 
I think so.

EDIT: I've changed my mind of KLOL's reasons, though Sam straight up said that he didn't want to fight Karli.
Yeah, he did refuse to fight but he still actively tried to defend himself as much as possible while also trying to not hit Karli.
 
Isn't there an upcoming series called 616? I believe it's about several people expressing their talents through marvel or something?
 
Oof, I thought he was alright. I think the writers trying to make us like him is a bullshit plan. Like if you want to make us hate him, just own it. His redemption arc also feels kind rushed tbh, like not bad, just could be better.

He's one of those characters that you love to hate, and I think he's well written for that.
 
Oof, I thought he was alright. I think the writers trying to make us like him is a bullshit plan. Like if you want to make us hate him, just own it. His redemption arc also feels kind rushed tbh, like not bad, just could be better.

He's one of those characters that you love to hate, and I think he's well written for that.
To be fair, U.S. Agent in the comics is more along the lines of an anti-hero: right goals, wrong methods. Walker never felt inherently evil to me. Even when he killed the Flag Smasher in broad daylight (not his best moment as Captain America), what did you expect from someone who literally has the black American flag on the arm of their uniform? It literally means to show no mercy and take no prisoners.

John Walker was always a good guy, but his methods are what's messed up, not really his alignment as much. Heck, even Steve was at odds with the U.S. Government, and he had valid reason to dip when they offered the Sokovia Accords (unlike the comic version, the Mutant Registration Act, the Accords were far too vague, and also restricted their freedom as Avengers too much). Who made the government the standard for right and wrong?

Secondly, John's character arc is less about him going from good guy to bad guy to good guy again, and more about him finding the way he can better serve his country. Originally, it was through Afghanistan tours, then he became Captain America and had a bit of a fall arc when he fought Sam and Bucky. From there, in the final episode he chose doing what was right over the vengeance that resulted in him being stripped of his title to begin with. Then, he finally finds his place as the U.S. Agent, still technically a good guy, but his methods from that point on may be...shadier.

As for him being hated, I feel like people are gonna hate him regardless. He basically was elected behind Sam's back, treated Sam and Bucky like sidekicks, got blood on the shield, almost killed Sam, fought Sam and Bucky, snapped on the U.S. government... All that jazz. John Walker isn't too popular of a guy in universe or out, as people think he's tarnished Steve's legacy, thought he was replacing Steve, even going as far as to send him hate mail and death threats iirc... Either way, the entire time, I felt more sympathy for his character than Karli, tbh.
 
Thoughts on the series was that it was okay, I guess.
Zemo was easily the best part of the series and the main thing I genuinely liked.
The relationship between Bucky and Sam was okay, nice to see Sam get something to make me enjoy the character a bit. However, Bucky was kind of shafted
John Walker was a missed opportunity, he should have been the true villain and it would have made sam's growth better
Karli was terrible.
The political commentary felt inserted into the story at times such as Sam's being black in America speech or him being racially profiled. If you want to tell a story with political undertones, fine, but it sometimes felt like an anti racism PSA
 
John Walker wasn't really supposed to be a villain in the comics nor throughout the whole story and it would have been cliche and character-killing to make him so, but I do think he should have killed Karli in an anti-villain way
 



Although I disagree with the author of this video that Karli shouldn't have been the bad guy, as there should be a philosophical debate over whether she is right or wrong imo
 
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Karli shouldn't have been the bad guy, as there should be a philosophical debate over whether she is right or wrong imo
Yeah I think that's definitely the case especially for the she's not a terrorist line to work. You have to still make her keep a moral compass and not go beyond killing and just sending messages I think that would've worked a lot better
 
I don't mind making it but would y'all rather a general MCU discussion thread probably phase 4 focused in its entirety or just a Loki specific thread
 
I'm going through make the MCU discussion thread now but is there anyway to set it so that others can edit it in it's structure so it can kinda have a better look if that's at all possible
 
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