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Falcon and The Winter Soldier MCU Spoiler Discussion Thread

I'm hoping for a mutant reveal or something. Latveria would be awesome as hell too though, and considering a fantastic 4 movie is planned towards the end of phase 4, its not entirely out of question.
 
By the way, Multiverse of Madness is finishing filming this week as confirmed by Feige. Feige was also seen wearing a hat with the MoM logo too
 
I really ****** love this show.

I'm really impressed with the way Sam handled becoming Cap. Even Walker was like damn I don't deserve that stuff. I'm glad they showed Bucky revealing about the Winter Soldier to that guy, but I really wished they would've shown more how he treated Bucky afterwards. Btw, Sam with the new outfit and vibrianum wings looks great!

As for our antagonists and partial antagonists theres a crap ton to unpack

Zemo was right (as he is about nearly everything) and Karli died because she was too devoted, or in Zemo's words: radicalized. The Flag Smashers as an organization is pretty much dead at this point, but that whole fiasco with that officer going "one world, one people" and then bombing them all was weird as hell. In terms of Walker, we're pretty much fully into his on-and-off radicalized self that we see in the comics. One moment he's a regular superhero, the next he's the dude we saw brutally murder an innocent Flag Smasher in public. And last but not least Sharon. She was obviously hinted at being the Power Broker, and pretty much everyone saw it coming, but I was not expecting her to retain her role as such, even after being pardoned and apologized too. I'll be interested to see what they decide to do with her going forward.

8.9/10 for the show IMO.
 
Oh and are we giving anyone any new keys for their new equipment? Bucky's metal arm, Sam's shield and new wings, Walker's homemade shield, or are we just adding it to their standard equipment?
 
Bucky's metal arm should stay being 8-B at max with strong crushing or piercing attacks (although his regular punches or pulls with it aren't necessarily 8-B all the time).

Sam with the shield would be 8-C, similarly to Pre-Serum Walker. He also has a decent lifting feat with his engine (if you watched the final you know what)

Not sure how to scale Batroc
 
I'll give the show 7-8 ish btw (I tend to give like top movies 8-9 ish so that means pretty good). I thoroughly enjoyed the show but I don't think it lives up to the Captain America trilogy's legacy, it explores like a lot of themes philosophical and political, in true Captain America style, but they're kind of a giant cauldron of mess. Maybe it's due to rumours of cancelled storylines because of COVID complications, but at times the show's messages feel a bit jumbled together and all over the place, if you get what I mean. It feels like the writers of the show themselves don't know what makes Captain America great. Also it might be an unpopular opinion but I didn't buy too much into the Karli and Flag Smasher storyline which felt a little bit confusing and rushed. I also don't really like the Sharon Carter storyline, it really served no purpose to the plot or character, to be harsh.

I'm sounding like I dislike the show right now but trust me I don't, I just tend to point out flaws in media right after I finish it, even if I enjoy them a lot during the experience. So let me talk more positivity, the character arcs and development of Sam, Bucky and John Walker were just spectacular and added a lot of character to the former two who were popular but significantly underdeveloped in the past works, and I'm extremely glad they dodged a bullet by not making Walker go full evil after I was immensely disappointed at the Hawyard guy from WandaVision just turning into a cliche evil government agent. The fight scenes were thrilling, especially the warehouse fight over the shield. I've also heard some talk by critics claiming Zemo didn't really serve much purpose other than fanfare and dancing memes, and I strongly disagree with that. Zemo was instrumental to the philosophical debate mid-show, when Sam, Bucky and Walker are lost while Zemo, having defeated the Avengers in Civil War, was the one confident in his beliefs, and our main protagonists' past values were continuously being challenged as Zemo's manipulation led them to the wrong conclusions, such as Sam believing the shield should be destroyed. Ultimately though, they and we the audience do snap out of it as Sam also points out the hypocrisy in Zemo's self-righteous beliefs. There's a lot of stuff designed to please fans, especially in the last episode with Captain America style Falcon, US Agent, etc, as well as parallels to the Captain America trilogy, both obvious and subtle. With regards to accusations of political messaging, well I say no shit, Captain America is a political series through and through and I believe they were more so exploring philosophical themes rather than promoting a certain agenda as some would say. This series definitely does not deserve to be compared to something like the CW Supergirl or Batwomanl, where when it tries to give a political message you literally spit out water because of how hilarious they execute it.

Overall, despite the themes and messages being kind of inconsistent and jumbled in my opinion and there were several character choices I dislike, it was an enjoyable experience as a whole.

This series also felt incomplete unlike WandaVision which while not completely resolved felt like the end of a chapter, so maybe there will be sequels.
 
Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan said:
This series also felt incomplete unlike WandaVision which while not completely resolved felt like the end of a chapter, so maybe there will be sequels
Click to expand...
Haven't been getting notifications for this for so long wth I just came back to check it after the finale and it was super active all along😭😭 anywho back to business I believe this is or has been renewed/opened for a second season and what we got at the end with the Captain America and The Winter Soldier Will be the name of that to come.
 
I wish they could release the full original vision in a Snyder Cut-like thingy after the pandemic is over in some way. I feel like the missing chunks due to COVID would make the Flag Smashers storyline work far better.
 
Maybe but there a scrapped Flag Smasher storyline with the vaccines Bucky found in Episode 2 iirc along with other stuff, which would help with the Flag Smashers since I think the show kinda failed to make Karli and them as sympathetic as they intended them to be
 
I think we should consider Zemo to be 9-C. Special Forces soldiers are a cut above your usual 10-A soldiers, and the man does have access to a shitton of money, which logically should mean the man's got a killer home gym and fitness routine given his profession and conviction
 
Yeah but that's with the strength of Captain America. When regular strong guys use the shield like pre-Serum John Walker they seem to be about on the level of super soldiers.
 
Sorry I'm late. I saw the final episode on Sunday and I'm going to give my thoughts on the episode and the series overall, along with a little question for discussion and debate (as long as we keep it civil!).

First off, I knew it. I knew Sharon was going to be the Power Broker! I totally knew it! Something about that call in episode 5, her fancy place in Madripoor, etc. were all hints at best and dead giveaways at worst. I like that, personally. It shows how superheroes and being affiliated with them haven't helped her, but have rather made her more jaded and villainous, a living exhibit A to some of the points Zemo makes. Some of the best villains around are ones of the hero's own creation, so I'm kind of excited to see where this goes.

Now, Captain Falcon. He showed us his moves, alright. The suit was clean, Redwing returned and better than ever, and some of the things he was doing with the shield were downright sick! I wish the fight with Batroc was longer, though. Also, I will say that it also shows the power difference between Sam and Steve, too. While Steve straight up laid Batroc out and after putting up the shield, Sam had a bit more difficultly and required the shield, which shows the difference in strength between the two as well as showing that Sam doesn't have all the experience that Steve does combat-wise. However, we get to see some of Sam's strengths that Steve doesn't have, like aerial manuverability and how he CHUCKED THE SHIELD LIKE ZEUS WOULD CHUCK A LIGHTNING BOLT. And it was glorious to watch.

It was also kind of crazy to see how Zemo was right about literally everything, even though I kind of expected that. He said Karli was too far gone to be reasoned with, and that was correct. He said there was only one way it could end, which was with killing Karli, and that's exactly what happened. Even though Zemo was only on screen for like a few minutes, it was still one of my favorite scenes in that episode. He had his butler kill the remaining Flag Smashers! That was incredibly big brain. Gotta give it up for everyone's favorite dancing Baron, who supplied us with great entertainment, philosophical banter, and a treacherous necessity to the team for a great deal of the series.

Back on track, Walker showing up was a welcome surprise. He came in with a vengeance, got jumped by several Super Soldiers, chased down Karli a bit and had a little bit of a back and forth in close-quarters combat with her, and then... Probably my FAVORITE scene in that episode. Walker is faced with a choice: let Karli get away, or save the Senator that stripped him of his title and gave him a "less than honorable discharge". After how he snapped on the one Flag Smasher, it almost seemed like the choice was clear.

But he decided to save the people instead. This is character development. That is how you do a character arc, people! Take notes, write this down. Character arcs like this start with a lie the character believes. For Walker, it was that he was capable enough of being Captain America and that Sam and Bucky owed him respect because he had the title. He started off with a negative arc, facing insecurities of living up to Steve's legacy and fails in several areas. The belief in the lie that he's automatically worthy (pun intended) to be Captain America and his insecurities around it were only enhanced by the Super Soldier Serum (e.g. "I am Captain America."). However, after deciding to choose violence and avenge Lemar by killing Karli, that dilemma forces him to choose, putting him on track for a positive character arc. You even see this when he chooses to help Bucky and Sam stop the Flag Smashers afterwards. He's not trying to demand authority like he was when he was dubbed Captain America. In fact, he's alongside Bucky behind Sam in one scene (which made my bros and I go "John Walker has joined the Party"). He doesn't even protest when Sam says he's Captain America, which show's that he's developed some humility in that regard, and it's all topped of with him having a new identity, his own identity as U.S. Agent. Honestly, Walker was one of the best written characters in the entire series, and Wyatt Russell did an awesome job with the role.

Now, let's talk about Karli. I think Spinosaurus gave sentiments I agree with, saying that "the show kinda failed to make Karli and them as sympathetic as they intended to be". I agree, and I kind of think that's a good thing, personally. I don't like too many sympathetic villains. There are villains like MCU Thanos, who I can understand in terms of their goals, but I'll never sympathize with. But yeah, had they not tried to basically say "she's a sad girl with a hard life, sympathize with her!", I think the execution of her character would have been better. For crying out loud, there were better things they could have done instead of trying to force us to sympathize by having Sam carry her bridal style to an ambulance (and she left Sharon in the car garage, despite not knowing that she's the Power Broker). They probably should have tweaked that seen a bit, as well as anything else that tried to make us uber sympathetic toward her, tbh. Heck, we've seen that life during the Blip sucked (e.g. Ronin pursuing criminals out of vengeance, Thor resorting to alcohol to cope, Steve in a meeting with other sad dudes), it would have been interesting if she was written as a nihilist of sorts.

Along with this, let's talk about the Flag Smashers as a group. I kind of cringed when Sam said they weren't terrorists. Uh, gassing the GRC, requiring an Avenger, a Captain America and former HYDRA assassin to track down and chase across several countries isn't considered a terrorist group? Don't those actions sound like the unlawful use of violence and intimidation in pursuing political aims? If you answered yes, congratulations! You agree that the Flag Smashers are terrorists. However, aside from that tidbit about them, I kind of thought he was straight spittin' at the end.

I liked the tribute to Isaiah Bradley that Sam made, and the apology to Nakajima that Bucky had to do. Both were incredibly touching scenes in that episode.

Also, the scene where Sharon was pardoned gave me "Revenge" vibes. I've never seen that show, all I know is that she was on it, but those were the vibes I got when she walked out after being pardoned for some reason. Don't judge me.

I also heard that Malcolm Spellman is working on the 4th Captain America movie, which is good. He also talked about less signposting, so twists won't be as obvious to us going forward. Plus, that allows for some consistency for continuing from the series.

Speaking of the series, here are my thoughts on the series as a whole. I felt it was a little slow paced, with action not really being as prominent until about episode 3 or 4 depending on how much action tickles your fancy for qualifying as action-packed, but made up for that by asking great philosophical questions about what it means to be a hero that represents an entire country, whether or not you should jump at the chance to accept power that turns mortal men into demi-gods of sorts, how battles from superheroes and villains affect aspects of the world, etc. It also delved into political topics with grace, except for when it didn't and got too in-your-face for my taste, but would revert back to not being as "preachy", for lack of a better word. It had a collection of great characters like Zemo and John Walker, realistic arcs for Bucky and Sam, but somewhat lackluster antagonists in the form of Karli and the Flag Smashers mainly due to trying to make characters too sympathetic (though they did a good job of showing what a radical group with a cult-like following would be like when dealing with superheroes and such). Overall, I thought the series was pretty good. I've recommended a few co-workers and friends watch it, and I think I'd still do so.

Now, I also mentioned something for discussion/debate. Here it is:

There are some people that love Sam becoming the new Captain America, since out of everyone else, he's best suited for that position. However, there are others who feel like giving him the mantle of Captain America takes away from him as Falcon, which would cause people to see Sam Wilson more along the lines of "Black Captain America" instead of "Falcon who took up the mantle/title" of Captain America, and would even argue the same thing with Bucky (not that he'd be White Captain America for somewhat, but that it would take away from him as the Winter Soldier, etc.). What are your thoughts on this?

EDIT: If you read all the way through this massive post I did, you're a real one.
 
Last edited:
ZoroNotZolo said:
There are some people that love Sam becoming the new Captain America, since out of everyone else, he's best suited for that position. However, there are others who feel like giving him the mantle of Captain America takes away from him as Falcon, which would cause people to see Sam Wilson more along the lines of "Black Captain America" instead of "Falcon who took up the mantle/title" of Captain America, and would even argue the same thing with Bucky (not that he'd be White Captain America for somewhat, but that it would take away from him as the Winter Soldier, etc.). What are your thoughts on this?
Click to expand...
I've wanted Sam to take up rhe mantle of captain america so it doesn't take away from anything for me and the show is literally built on expanding and extrapolating on who Sam is and shows us how and why he is the one to be our Captain America, and while I believe Bucky is a little underutilized we've seen where is acr has led and his mentality on things Bucky genuinely wanted and supported Sam as captain america so I don't think it would be in good taste for him to take up the mantle himself unless sam had not done so. However all in all either way there will be people who're unsatisfied either way it goes but I personally like how things went and see this is more of the next step in these characters journey's and legacies moving forward in the MCU's everprogressing world
 
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