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MCU Phase 4 General Discussion Thread

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AnonymousBlank said:
Orihime doesn’t actually work as an example since it’s specifically mentioned her power is based on her emotions and to attack, she needs bloodlust and intent to kill which is something completely against her character. Her AP actually would scale to her defense if she was bloodlusted.
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I know absolutely nothing about her so I'll just nod
 
Are we giving the main universe Ancient One the 2-C feat, or are we making a page for the alternate universe Ancient One and only mentioning it on that page? Unlike Strange, the alternate universe Ancient One didn't show any fundamental differences in her character to suggest she has any real divergences from her main universe counterpart, so it seems weird to assume there's a major power gap between them.

Either way, it should probably be noted that the Ancient One had to draw energy from the Dark Dimension in order to split the timeline, and I believe it was already established in the Doctor Strange movie that the Ancient One used Dark Dimension energy to lengthen her lifespan and increase her power, so I think the Ancient One only scales to 2-C when amped by Dark Dimension energy. I don't believe this should directly scale to any other sorcerers, considering main universe Strange, unless I'm forgetting something, hasn't used Dark Dimension energy (and probably wouldn't in character) and even Kaecilius and his Zealots, who did use Dark Dimension energy, could not use it nearly as well, considering Kaecilius needed three other Zealots to perform the ritual to draw upon the energy, while Ancient One could draw upon it without help from others. In addition, the Zealots were very outmatched by Ancient One and Kaecilius only killed her by catching her off guard.
 
Dinobot1996 said:
Are we giving the main universe Ancient One the 2-C feat, or are we making a page for the alternate universe Ancient One and only mentioning it on that page? Unlike Strange, the alternate universe Ancient One didn't show any fundamental differences in her character to suggest she has any real divergences from her main universe counterpart, so it seems weird to assume there's a major power gap between them.

Either way, it should probably be noted that the Ancient One had to draw energy from the Dark Dimension in order to split the timeline, and I believe it was already established in the Doctor Strange movie that the Ancient One used Dark Dimension energy to lengthen her lifespan and increase her power, so I think the Ancient One only scales to 2-C when amped by Dark Dimension energy. I don't believe this should directly scale to any other sorcerers, considering main universe Strange, unless I'm forgetting something, hasn't used Dark Dimension energy (and probably wouldn't in character) and even Kaecilius and his Zealots, who did use Dark Dimension energy, could not use it nearly as well, considering Kaecilius needed three other Zealots to perform the ritual to draw upon the energy, while Ancient One could draw upon it without help from others. In addition, the Zealots were very outmatched by Ancient One and Kaecilius only killed her by catching her off guard.
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Gotta see where everyone stands with that because she's not at all different fundamentally the same way strange is
 
I... honestly don't know how to think about it, especially since the Ancient One here isn't that different
I do agree for the scaling thing though, the AO is the only one with such feat
 
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The canon Ancient One should scale since this would be her from before she died. Nothing limits her either since Strange is supposed to surpass her but we don’t actually know when that is. Even after centuries of absorbing more and more power sometime before IW, he is still weaker than her as he struggles and fails to stop the collapse of a universe while she can create timelines.
 
In this timeline Thor sat in that cafe and constantly asked for "Another!" then smashing the glass of beer.
 
Anyone have that reddit post of the ordered What If episodes and their themes? I wanna make a "most hyped for out of the remaining" list?
 
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Also, a polite request for everyone in this thread to keep all Shang-Chi related discussion in spoiler tags for the next couple of months please. With the movie only being in theaters for the first 45 days before releasing on Disney+, being able to watch the movie soon after release date becomes more difficult with a theatrical-exclusive release. Especially factoring in stuff like school/college starting up again for many and those in south east USA dealing with the aftermath of Hurricane Ida.

Thanks!
 
From the looks of it, it looks like all the plots of What if are eventually gonna tie into one another. And Ultron looks to be the final villain. I feel this could potentially crossover into the main marvel canon somehow, but I kinda hope it won't as things will just get convoluted.
 
Emirp sumitpo said:
From the looks of it, it looks like all the plots of What if are eventually gonna tie into one another. And Ultron looks to be the final villain. I feel this could potentially crossover into the main marvel canon somehow, but I kinda hope it won't as things will just get convoluted.
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I don't think it will crossover with the main continuity, it will be too complicated. They will just make references and loose connections, otherwise what if will stick to its own buisness. At least I hope so.

Also, yeah, I've red stuff about the potential plot for the final of the series and basically, it's this. There's also the poster with Ultron on it so...
 
Btw shouldn't Doctor Strange Supreme have all the P&A of his main timeline counterpart? (pre-IW Strange).

Since he went through exactly the same experiences as his main timeline counterpart up to Ragnarok (minus losing his heart instead of his hands), for example he would've went through being killed repeatedly by Dorm, in order to bargain with him.
 
The_Axiom_of_Virgo said:
Btw shouldn't Doctor Strange Supreme have all the P&A of his main timeline counterpart? (pre-IW Strange).

Since he went through exactly the same experiences as his main timeline counterpart up to Ragnarok (minus losing his heart instead of his hands), for example he would've went through being killed repeatedly by Dorm, in order to bargain with him.
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Yep yep yep
 
I'd question The Ancient One's feat entirely being Low 2-C.
For one, the version of herself, didn't she say it was an "echo" or such? Ergo, isn't she dead from doing it?
& didn't she imply she could only maintain the split temporarily? If so, then it's only 2 Finite Timelines. Albeit, maybe containing an Infinite Universe within them. (But that may be deteriorating or lesser than before because of Strange's Time abuse.)

Also, it feels weird scaling Strange to slowing down the destruction of the universe, because it didn't seem to be ending any slower compared to before he started trying, & he was putting his all into it; It looked more like a futile struggle.

Not to mention, while he WAS a bit beat up, this Strange is supposed to be considerably more powerful than before, because he spent CENTURIES absorbing the magical power of mystical beings.
Sure, his "good" self still matched him, but that was with prep & a bunch of protection sigils & such. & yes, his power was halved by being split, but....

The fact still remains that the story presents him absorbing magical beings one after another for centuries like it should be a big power amp, & it probably is. Yet despite all that, & despite getting the other half of his power back by absorbing himself, he still seemed to fail to make a difference in delaying the universe disappearing.

If you're significantly stronger than before, putting your everything into it, & still not slowing the rate, I question you scaling.
Not to mention, it definitely wasn't an infinite universe that he was holding back the destruction of; We could see the void creeping in around it, & at that point, what evidence is there that the timeline HADN'T ceased to be infinite?
 
Imaginym said:
For one, the version of herself, didn't she say it was an "echo" or such? Ergo, isn't she dead from doing it?
& didn't she imply she could only maintain the split temporarily? If so, then it's only 2 Finite Timelines. Albeit, maybe containing an Infinite Universe within them. (But that may be deteriorating or lesser than before because of Strange's Time abuse.)
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No Strange went to the past where the ancient was still alive and she split the timeline there, the ancient was dead in the future due to her death in the normal events that play out in the doctor strange film
 
Dalesean027 said:
No Strange went to the past where the ancient was still alive and she split the timeline there, the ancient was dead in the future due to her death in the normal events that play out in the doctor strange film
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I haven't seen Dr. Strange (2016) in a while. During which events did The Ancient One die during? Also, does anyone recall or have scans of her dialogue?
 
Imaginym said:
The fact still remains that the story presents him absorbing magical beings one after another for centuries like it should be a big power amp, & it probably is. Yet despite all that, & despite getting the other half of his power back by absorbing himself, he still seemed to fail to make a difference in delaying the universe disappearing.

If you're significantly stronger than before, putting your everything into it, & still not slowing the rate, I question you scaling.
Not to mention, it definitely wasn't an infinite universe that he was holding back the destruction of; We could see the void creeping in around it, & at that point, what evidence is there that the timeline HADN'T ceased to be infinite?
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It definitely did slow and ultimately he was only able to protect his self and still survived the destruction of him universe/timeline and the amp was only truely completed after absorbing his other self which we saw that form he had and he gained enough raw power to overwrite an absolute point
 
She dies near the end of the movie after the attack on the NY Sanctum. Kaecilius and the other Zealots try to fight her in the Mirror Dimension but she kicks their ass with ease and Kaecilius has to attack her from behind to stab her
 
ArkhamDC06 said:
She dies near the end of the movie after the attack on the NY Sanctum. Kaecilius and the other Zealots try to fight her in the Mirror Dimension but she kicks their ass with ease and Kaecilius has to attack her from behind to stab her
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Imaginym said:
I haven't seen Dr. Strange (2016) in a while. During which events did The Ancient One die during? Also, does anyone recall or have scans of her dialogue?
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This is something that's supposed to happen as well to have strange ascend and become sorcerer supreme so he simply went before that point in time to a point he shouldn't have even known of the mystic arts existence(obv he came from the future with his abilities so it's different) and when the ancient one still lived
 
Dalesean027 said:
It definitely did slow
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What's the basis of this claim in contrast to the other stuff I said?
Dalesean027 said:
and ultimately he was only able to protect his self and still survived the destruction of him universe/timeline and the amp was only truely completed after absorbing his other self which we saw that form he had and he gained enough raw power to overwrite an absolute point
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I'd still question this as a basis. Protecting yourself from being erased does not equate to maintaining an infinite space or infinite time.
& to reiterate what I said earlier, he had not only both halves of himself (Strange Supreme absorbing Good Strange) but also centuries worth of absorbed magical creatures.

100 / 2 = 50.
50 + 10 (Or whatever arbitrary value you wanna put to centuries of magical being's power.) = 60.
50 + 10 + 50 = 110

Strange is unquestionably stronger than before from absorbing other creatures, probably more magical study, maybe also holding the Time Stone as The Eye of Agamotto (Dunno if that can or does amp the Time Stone.) but he STILL couldn't hold a mostly erased universe together.

What's to say the universe is still infinite or a Low 2-C feat when we can plainly see it's not infinite anymore?
 
Imaginym said:
Not to mention, it definitely wasn't an infinite universe that he was holding back the destruction of; We could see the void creeping in around it, & at that point, what evidence is there that the timeline HADN'T ceased to be infinite?
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where's this notion of a infinite universe coming from not once had anyone stated anything about an infinite universe in Strange's timeline the man simply
Imaginym said:
What's the basis of this claim in contrast to the other stuff I said?
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Still typing
Imaginym said:
I'd still question this as a basis. Protecting yourself from being erased does not equate to maintaining an infinite space or infinite time.
& to reiterate what I said earlier, he had not only both halves of himself (Strange Supreme absorbing Good Strange) but also centuries worth of absorbed magical creatures.
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But again where are you getting this infinite time and infinite space notion from?
Imaginym said:
What's to say the universe is still infinite or a Low 2-C feat when we can plainly see it's not infinite anymore?
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Also it's the complete destruction of the entire timeline we literally saw reality crumble and basically implode onto a single point in which strange defended himself from and even if he couldn't stop the entire timeline from being destroyed there's no question whether or not he defended himself from it when that's literally what see on screen.
 
also again strange is still scaling above the ancient who split the timeline and is still stated to be greater in power than her even here so I'm still not seeing what you're missing
 
Colonel_Krukov said:
Isn't the whole premise that changing a certain key event would cause the timeline's destruction, which is mentioned multiple times?
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Yes and that normally no one has the raw power to do so anyway but strange found a way got strong enough to do so and then exactly what was said came to pass because of his arrogance, this is something the watcher literally talks about at the end that strange was warned of the consequences multiple times but he still sought out the power to change absolute points time
 
Dalesean027 said:
where's this notion of a infinite universe coming from not once had anyone stated anything about an infinite universe in Strange's timeline the man simply
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vsbattles.fandom.com

Tiering System

The following is a comprehensive overview of the hierarchical system the VS Battles Wiki utilizes to properly categorize and index fictional characters, entities, and objects based on the scale of their feats and the varying scopes that they can affect or create/destroy. Though Destructive...
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Low 2-C | Universe level+: Characters who are capable of significantly affecting[1], creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely-sized 3-dimensional space. Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale. However, it can be more generally fulfilled by any 4-dimensional space that is either:

A) Equivalent to a large extra dimensional space. That is, a higher-dimensional "bulk" space which embeds lower-dimensional ones (Such as our universe) as subsets of itself, whose dimensions are not microscopic / compactified.

B) Portrayed as completely transcending lower-dimensional objects and spaces in the setting of a given work of fiction.

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Attack Potency

Destructive Capacity is the term used to determine the amount of damage a character can produce. It is normally the deciding factor of VS matches along with Speed. It is measured in units of energy. An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive...
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  • Universe level: Given that the universe's actual size is unknown, we do not know the amount of energy that would be required to destroy all matter within it. As such, the bare minimum value for the observable universe was calculated as a lower border instead (The PSRJ0348+0432 was used as a base). Any greater finite number is also included within this tier, whereas countably infinite numbers are included under High Universe level.

If it's not Infinite, it's not Low 2-C.
Dalesean027 said:
Still typing
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Sorry for making you feel rushed. I also do hope I'm not bothering you, even if the point of this debate may be a bit controversial.
Dalesean027 said:
Also it's the complete destruction of the entire timeline we literally saw reality crumble and basically implode onto a single point in which strange defended himself from and even if he couldn't stop the entire timeline from being destroyed there's no question whether or not he defended himself from it when that's literally what see on screen.
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But protecting yourself from being erased from existence isn't maintaining a structure external to yourself.
Even if he was protecting something external, how do we know it had Infinite Space or Infinite Time to it, when most of the universe was gone, & what remained of it could be seen on-screen?
& I feel that "defending" is questionable without more definitive evidence that he was succeeding in slowing stuff down, as opposed to struggling & failing.
Dalesean027 said:
also again strange is still scaling above the ancient who split the timeline and is still stated to be greater in power than her even here so I'm still not seeing what you're missing
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But she lacks other Low 2-C feats, doesn't she?
 
Imaginym said:
But she lacks other Low 2-C feats, doesn't she?
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This doesn't matter as she draws upon the power of the dark dimension to do so therefore it wouldn't be an outlier
Imaginym said:
Such as our universe)
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It's this though we known the MCU is at least generally made after our own IRL universe and that for this case universe means timeline(that's how the watcher refers to each timeline he views, as "universes") so it's still the collapse of a universe sized spacetime.
Imaginym said:
Common fictional examples of spaces representing such sizes are space-time continuums of a universal scale
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This here it still fits this due to it being modeled after our own universe
Imaginym said:
But protecting yourself from being erased from existence isn't maintaining a structure external to yourself.
Even if he was protecting something external, how do we know it had Infinite Space or Infinite Time to it, when most of the universe was gone, & what remained of it could be seen on-screen?
& I feel that "defending" is questionable without more definitive evidence that he was succeeding in slowing stuff down, as opposed to struggling & failing
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I'm very confused he still remains unharmed in his barrier even after the timeline is destroyed so even though he couldn't stop the rest of the destruction he could still withstand it when it came to defending himself just not a larger area. Also we see that this isn't just the regular destruction of the universe either, we see christine is in the barrier with him yet still manages to be erased along we with the timeline
 
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