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Ah. Don't remember the scene very well but if we have something or someone to scale him to we could find a height and use GPE since he'd be small enough to be affected by gravity
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MCU Phase 4 General Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Valiant_Abyss
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Same shape (minus the physical differences like the form of the head) and several shots in the movie leads to the same impression from angles, size, etc. Honestly, all the Celestials we see here are excessively close to each other in terms of appearence , shape and size (hey, Tiamut's head was basically the same as Arishem but in gold) to the tpoint the only real difference is their respective color (plus details)
Although is it certain it was a galaxy feat and not a sun feat?
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That's clearly a galaxy and not a star. Also why would them looking similar be evidence for them being equal?
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Shouldn't the Eternals have Inorganic Physiology since they are synthetic beings?
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Nothing in the movie indicates in any way Arishem is inferior in size, let alone there's such a huge gap between him and other Celestials, in fact, the shots, the angles, the scenes, everything tends to indicate the three Celestials we see here are of the same size (and if we take the concept art I mentionned above, they actually are), unless we take the idea they can actually alter their size at will (wich would explain Eson)
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The movie shows Arishem to be roughly planet size. In no way is he remotely close to galaxy sized when he's talking with the eternals.
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True, will add that on my personal draft
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Yeah but Arishem as far as we've seen has more abilities than the other celestials so he could potentially be able to alter his size but that's just an assumption for now
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That's from the comics, never mind
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I could make the argument Infinity Ultron should be Relativistic or even Massively FTL+ via scaling above the celestials in speed and we know that he does kill them at some point, but considering we don't know how he killed them, scaling him to Celestials in speed seems eh. Plus there's already the Giant Ultron. And I doubt Ultron has reason to scale to the eternals considering he only kills them via nukes
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Except, again, all the Celestials we see are of the same shape and everything we see about them tends to indicate they're all way too similar for such a huge gape in size to be shown in the movie
When we're at it, Arishem explains in his flashback that Celestials can create planets and suns, wich led to galaxies being created (can't remember the exact quote but it was along the line of "we use the energy of planets to create suns and they evolve into galaxies") so the more I think about it, the more I think Jemiah just created a big sun
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No? Eson is like building sized, the blue celestials is the size of a star, the green one was above galaxy sized and Arishem and Tiamut are in the planetary ranges in size. And in terms of shape we see that they have all relatively different designs.
And I don't think "Stars" are shaped like disks. We saw a celestial creating a sun just a few seconds before Jemiah and it was visually different
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The low quality clip of Arishem explaining the Celestial's job
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Exactly my point, those are completely different actions
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Hum no, the first creates a ball of light via rays, the second creates a ball of light at the center of a circle. The effect is the same, the light is the same, the color of the ball is the same, the only difference is the "disk" wich is visibly just energy swirling around and gathering and nothing visually indicates Jemiah's creating anything more than one ball of light. Plus, Arishem's narration says "we create planets, stars, forming galaxies", obviously saying they're creating them little by little, otherwise the movie would have literally stated "we create galaxies"
There's the palm scene though...
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Oh, and the clip here more than clearly gives off the "they're of the same size" vibe
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Fair enough. Then 4-C and Relativistic for everyone then.
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I would say "At least 4-C" since judging from what we see, they can create suns casually
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Found this note on the Fridge section of TV Tropes about the movie, thought it was interesting
"The revelations about the Celestial's life cycle cast a new light on Ego's backstory from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: a Celestial seed is supposed to be planted on a planet bearing intelligent life, until enough sapient beings populate it in order to provide the necessary life-energy to trigger the Emergence. This explains why when the infant Ego instead found itself floating in deep space it instinctually created a planet around itself. The lack of a gestation period on an already established planet also explains why Ego was unable to grow a body for himself along the same lines as the other Celestials."
"The revelations about the Celestial's life cycle cast a new light on Ego's backstory from Guardians of the Galaxy Vol. 2: a Celestial seed is supposed to be planted on a planet bearing intelligent life, until enough sapient beings populate it in order to provide the necessary life-energy to trigger the Emergence. This explains why when the infant Ego instead found itself floating in deep space it instinctually created a planet around itself. The lack of a gestation period on an already established planet also explains why Ego was unable to grow a body for himself along the same lines as the other Celestials."
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Doing it casually doesn't get you At least I'm pretty sure
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Given the timeframe and how they do it (like it takes a second for both to form the ball/star and make it grow to a reasonable state), I would say in this case it's so casual it's obvious they can do much more than that and could create more than one star (especially with the Arishem's palm scene when we see a ball of energy in his hand explode in numerous stars and space clouds but can't find a clip of that) but that I can see what you mean
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Another interesting idea from TV tropes for Eternals
"The usual procedure of Celestials needing to use a planet in order to birth a new member of the race, retroactively implies a great deal of Thanos' motivations- given that he's the brother of Eros- an Eternal, thus having knowledge of what the Celestial's ultimate endgoals are. By reducing the number of lifeforms required for the Emergence to begin in the universe, it means in his mind, those planets would spared from the reality of suddenly dying from a Celestial's birth. While Thanos is a well-intentioned but genocidal tyrant, even he finds the birthing process of Celestials being far too extreme."
"The usual procedure of Celestials needing to use a planet in order to birth a new member of the race, retroactively implies a great deal of Thanos' motivations- given that he's the brother of Eros- an Eternal, thus having knowledge of what the Celestial's ultimate endgoals are. By reducing the number of lifeforms required for the Emergence to begin in the universe, it means in his mind, those planets would spared from the reality of suddenly dying from a Celestial's birth. While Thanos is a well-intentioned but genocidal tyrant, even he finds the birthing process of Celestials being far too extreme."
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Also I just remembered something? I remember that creation feats may not scale to your base AP or something?
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It's case by case depending on the regular showings of characters
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Depends on the context for each character
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IIRC
Creation feats that characters perform that are not on-screen, have no timeframe, and don't detail how they did it get that Tier but it doesn't scale to their regular stats due to the vagueness of the feat.
Creations feats that have a character create something wherein the thing they created becomes self sustaining and creates something even grander. The thing that the character would be granted that tier but not the character themselves.
Creation feats that characters perform that are not on-screen, have no timeframe, and don't detail how they did it get that Tier but it doesn't scale to their regular stats due to the vagueness of the feat.
Creations feats that have a character create something wherein the thing they created becomes self sustaining and creates something even grander. The thing that the character would be granted that tier but not the character themselves.
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So what happens in our case?
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Well it's On Screen, we have a Timeframe, and Arishem details how they do it (Using energy from host planets, yaddah yaddah)
They do it themselves and not through using another medium, device, object, etc.
They do it themselves and not through using another medium, device, object, etc.
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So it's a definitive tier 4 feat and a casual one at that
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Another thing that helps is that the Eternals and the Celestials technically possess a Universal Energy system between their races.
Adult Celestial > New Born Celestial ~ Energy of Host Planet > Uni Mind > Individual Eternals
Adult Celestial > New Born Celestial ~ Energy of Host Planet > Uni Mind > Individual Eternals
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Are we gonna ignore the palm feat though? It clearly shows Stars and planets forming out of the said "First Sun", also wasnt Arishem before the singularities and before spacetime itself? Shouldnt it suggest that the first sun created the fabric of spacetime itself? and if the celestials formed every matter, space, energy, gravity in the universe that should be more than just 4c even if it was overtime.
Also Phastos did mention of Arishem imbueding into the eternals INFINITE CELESTIAL ENERGY ( Another proof of 2c) which was makes them immortal(ageless).
Also Phastos did mention of Arishem imbueding into the eternals INFINITE CELESTIAL ENERGY ( Another proof of 2c) which was makes them immortal(ageless).
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Scan? That is not 2-C in the slightest
Nothing suggests that. It's literally described before when the celestial created stars and shit, the universe was just a void. There isn't an explicit mention of space and time. And they haven't shown to have created anything greater than stars
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Cant get the scan mow, but it was when Phastos was explaining how he was going to make the uni mind, he explicitly stated the Arishem imbued them with infinite celestial energy
I dont recall there being any mention of spacetime, Also from what the big bang means spacetime was created alongside during the bigbang and this birthed the infinity stones, wong explained that much, so if Arishem was before any of the stones thus any of the aspect they control, it means the void that was used was actually the void. Thus indicating the celestials made spacetime itself.
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The celestials never created the big bang, nor was that ever stated. Arishem is stated to have made the first sun and nothing more. The unierse was blank at first, then the celestials started making stuff in the empty universe
At best, that's High 3-A, but even then, that's pretty iffy as there kinda needs to be proof of literal infinite energy
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Even if was not directly stated, Arishem was before anything, the universe, and even before spacetime itself(since the infinity stones dont exist then) so the celestials must've made everything, including spacetime itself, and since spacetime isnt what is created gradually then it is only reasonable that Arishem first sun feat made spacetime itself.
Arguiung that is just not right. Wong stated the stones formed immediately after the big bang, and from his holographic description energy and matter was formed simultaneously, but none of this existed. So even if Arishem didnt create the bigbang, then all of spacetime, matter, energy, the stones, must've been a collective work of the celestials and that is far beyond 4c.
Oh i think Phastos words mean alot than what u are insinuating calling it Iffy, He said the infinity energy is what sustains them forever, that is enough proof of how infinite that is.
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Again, that's just an assumption. We're gonna actual full evidence to say Arishem or even the celestials as a whole is Low 2-C. We can't just assume he created the big bang.
Honestly the whole Celestial story was pretty dumb and kinda retcons and contradicts several things. You can very much tell they only planned Eternals after writing Infinity War.
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I think that is more than assumption
It's simple Arishem existed before the stones. Thus before bigbang and before Spacetime.
The celestials collectively made spacetime, energy and matter. This alone is at least low 2c, but if we actually go deeper into what this feat actually entails it is more than enough for 2A collectively for the Celestials.
But since we have very limited info, nothing less than low 2c should be given to the celestials, Arishem at least.
I wont say dumb, just wrong....ok maybe kinda dumb, if it was just a universe the celestials made then how come? Where is it located? Separate from the rest of the multiverse? Who made that multiverse?
If it was indeed the multiverse they made then why focus on one universe alone?
Now i just typed it....The watcher did explain that the multiverse sprung from the infinite possibilities of a single universe, other alternate dimensions like the dark dimension existed before time and possibly before the bigbang. Meaning Dormamu existed before the universe we see the celestials make.
So now I just answered all my question, they focus on the prime universe, the original timeline and not the multiverse that sprung from it's possibilities, it makes sense honestly.
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They're never stated to make space time. Only the matter of the universe
And again, existing before it doesn't mean you caused it.
The Celestials had nothing to do with the multiverse.
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