Justice for Tokyo Revengers.

[Dalesean027]

It has more points that debunk your points

say them here, again that's not an accepted thread nor does it feature an accepted calc, so if you think it does then use those points here, frankly there shouldn't even be like 3 or 4 CRTs for a verse running at once so its ridiculous as is

 

[HollowVanity]

say them here, again that's not an accepted thread nor does it feature an accepted calc, so if you think it does then use those points here, frankly there shouldn't even be like 3 or 4 CRTs for a verse running at once so its ridiculous as is

Arguments posed by other people:

1. Why didn't Kakucho dodge the bullet if he is capable of doing it. Debunk: Plot induced stupidity (events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot). The whole point of this scene was to kill Izana off and do it in a good way, the best way was for him to die saving Kakucho, this really needs no more debating. Plus, Kakucho only scales to subsonic+ now

2. Characters are constantly dying to bullets so supersonic+ would be an outlier. Debunk: The only times characters have died to bullets I will name below

1. Mikey gets shot by Naoto. Mikey was looking away from Naoto and wanted to be killed, he was literally begging Takemichi to pop a cap in his head lol
2. Kakucho gets shot. Kakucho was looking away from Kisaki so its not really a matter of being an outlier
3. Chifuyu gets shot. Chifuyu was tied up, pretty simple
4. Draken gets shot. Draken was saving Takemichi and Senju here, his death was important to the plot so ofc he had to die. He couldn't have caught the bullets since thats not a matter of only speed. Plus, to move both Takemichi and Senju out of the way would have taken ALOT more speed and a lot more LS then the verse has, calculating it, we get this: F = 105 x 1178 =12612 kg, meaning he would have had to have a class 25 LS to actually pick them up and move them out of the way in time, meaning he had to tank the bullets to save them.
5. Why didn't a high tier (Senju) not move Takemichi out of the way of the bullets. I mean, Takemichi literally had her pinned down so she couldn't have done much

3. Why would characters be scared of guns if they were faster then them. Debunk: characters likely use guns because the piercing damage they have. For example

Without a knife, Angry is capable of no diffing and blitzing Mucho, but when Mucho has a knife, Angry struggles with him and is much more cautious even though he is capable of blitzing him, thats how we know isn't because the speed of the knife, its because the knife is capable of piercing Angry. The same argument can be said for bullets, guns are scary to characters because if a bullet lands, they would likely die, meaning, characters need to be much more cautious around guns which is why they're usually shocked when someone has a gun. The same happens when someone pulls a knife out, characters are shocked. Also, only mid tiers are shocked and they scale to subsonic+ so yeah

4. Why would characters use guns if they were faster then them. Debunk: The only time a high tier has used a gun was when Izana used it on Mikey as a last resort, when he was beaten up and his limbs were tired, he was likely slower then a gun during that instance.

"But hollow, how is he slower then a gun in one instance but faster when saving Kakucho", thanks for pointing this out, I can explain.

When Izana heard Kisaki scream "DIE" he likely would have snapped back and saw Kakucho was about to get shot, Izana then in this state most likely had a surge of adrenaline and likely became stronger then even him at the start of the arc.
https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/adrenaline#:~:text=When you have a lot,called noradrenaline (or norepinephrine).
"When you have a lot of adrenaline in your blood, you don’t feel as much pain, so you can keep running or fighting, even if you are injured. It makes you stronger"
"you get a temporary boost of strength"
"A person exhibiting hysterical strength is reckoned to have lifted at least 3000lbs"
Proof that adrenaline is capable of making you stronger far past your normal capabilities, strength goes hand in hand with speed btw
"the stronger an athlete is for their body weight, the faster their times in short sprints will be"

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I'll get to everything later, but saying things like "Base Senju" is already out of the window.

Senju was holding back the entire time before chapter 229, and that is PURELY because of Takeomi, after that moment she stopped holding back, there's nothing that says that she's gets weaker after that since she has ZERO reasons to hold back anymore.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Arguments posed by other people:

1. Why didn't Kakucho dodge the bullet if he is capable of doing it. Debunk: Plot induced stupidity (events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot). The whole point of this scene was to kill Izana off and do it in a good way, the best way was for him to die saving Kakucho, this really needs no more debating. Plus, Kakucho only scales to subsonic+ now

2. Characters are constantly dying to bullets so supersonic+ would be an outlier. Debunk: The only times characters have died to bullets I will name below

1. Mikey gets shot by Naoto. Mikey was looking away from Naoto and wanted to be killed, he was literally begging Takemichi to pop a cap in his head lol
2. Kakucho gets shot. Kakucho was looking away from Kisaki so its not really a matter of being an outlier
3. Chifuyu gets shot. Chifuyu was tied up, pretty simple
4. Draken gets shot. Draken was saving Takemichi and Senju here, his death was important to the plot so ofc he had to die. He couldn't have caught the bullets since thats not a matter of only speed. Plus, to move both Takemichi and Senju out of the way would have taken ALOT more speed and a lot more LS then the verse has, calculating it, we get this: F = 105 x 1178 =12612 kg, meaning he would have had to have a class 25 LS to actually pick them up and move them out of the way in time, meaning he had to tank the bullets to save them.
5. Why didn't a high tier (Senju) not move Takemichi out of the way of the bullets. I mean, Takemichi literally had her pinned down so she couldn't have done much

3. Why would characters be scared of guns if they were faster then them. Debunk: characters likely use guns because the piercing damage they have. For example

Without a knife, Angry is capable of no diffing and blitzing Mucho, but when Mucho has a knife, Angry struggles with him and is much more cautious even though he is capable of blitzing him, thats how we know isn't because the speed of the knife, its because the knife is capable of piercing Angry. The same argument can be said for bullets, guns are scary to characters because if a bullet lands, they would likely die, meaning, characters need to be much more cautious around guns which is why they're usually shocked when someone has a gun. The same happens when someone pulls a knife out, characters are shocked. Also, only mid tiers are shocked and they scale to subsonic+ so yeah

4. Why would characters use guns if they were faster then them. Debunk: The only time a high tier has used a gun was when Izana used it on Mikey as a last resort, when he was beaten up and his limbs were tired, he was likely slower then a gun during that instance.

"But hollow, how is he slower then a gun in one instance but faster when saving Kakucho", thanks for pointing this out, I can explain.

When Izana heard Kisaki scream "DIE" he likely would have snapped back and saw Kakucho was about to get shot, Izana then in this state most likely had a surge of adrenaline and likely became stronger then even him at the start of the arc.
https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/adrenaline#:~:text=When you have a lot,called noradrenaline (or norepinephrine).
"When you have a lot of adrenaline in your blood, you don’t feel as much pain, so you can keep running or fighting, even if you are injured. It makes you stronger"
"you get a temporary boost of strength"
"A person exhibiting hysterical strength is reckoned to have lifted at least 3000lbs"
Proof that adrenaline is capable of making you stronger far past your normal capabilities, strength goes hand in hand with speed btw
"the stronger an athlete is for their body weight, the faster their times in short sprints will be"

Dude, don't bring that up here, I don't want this CRT to be a mess

 

[Dalesean027]

1. Why didn't Kakucho dodge the bullet if he is capable of doing it. Debunk: Plot induced stupidity (events in a story that contradict a character's normal capabilities for the purpose of the plot). The whole point of this scene was to kill Izana off and do it in a good way, the best way was for him to die saving Kakucho, this really needs no more debating. Plus, Kakucho only scales to subsonic+ now

You have to actually give valid reasons for why this is just PIS instead of giving your own headcanon so this doesn't work as a refutation. Simply put if the author wanted them to be supersonic+ he could give them actually blatant bullet timing feats and statements but he doesn't.

2. Characters are constantly dying to bullets so supersonic+ would be an outlier. Debunk: The only times characters have died to bullets I will name below

1. Mikey gets shot by Naoto. Mikey was looking away from Naoto and wanted to be killed, he was literally begging Takemichi to pop a cap in his head lol
2. Kakucho gets shot. Kakucho was looking away from Kisaki so its not really a matter of being an outlier
3. Chifuyu gets shot. Chifuyu was tied up, pretty simple
4. Draken gets shot. Draken was saving Takemichi and Senju here, his death was important to the plot so ofc he had to die. He couldn't have caught the bullets since thats not a matter of only speed. Plus, to move both Takemichi and Senju out of the way would have taken ALOT more speed and a lot more LS then the verse has, calculating it, we get this: F = 105 x 1178 =12612 kg, meaning he would have had to have a class 25 LS to actually pick them up and move them out of the way in time, meaning he had to tank the bullets to save them.
5. Why didn't a high tier (Senju) not move Takemichi out of the way of the bullets. I mean, Takemichi literally had her pinned down so she couldn't have done much

Great no one said anything about the Mikey one, that's not what an outlier is the dude just get shot, ofc but that doesn't mean he's magically supersonic outside of the chair and frankly if you think the chifuyu chair feat is valid which you actually do then him being tied up is even less of a point as he'd be supersonic+ and could actually evade the bullet even if he was tied up lol, using the plot as an excuse is a non point this doesn't refute or support either side, funny enough they are Class 25 and that's also not how that works, that's how much force he'd carry moving at that speed but in this case its not even applicable as he could literally just shove them too, you completely ignored what I said about the senju one here so that's also not a debunk

So realistically Takemichi himself wouldn't need saving and Senju herself being >>>takemichi wouldn't need it either and could move them both before they were ever in any real danger but instead as we see in the original timeline she was shot and died. Before anyone tries to ignore context and say Takemichi jumps on her to protect her and that's why she couldn't move dodge in the original timeline I say that action of jumping on her to shield her was literally only AFTER he knows about the future, he doesn't originally know this would happen so she'd just get shot from that range, and even further on top of that, outside of her being shot nothing about the original timeline is shown so assuming he shields her would be head canon.

so again nothing of note has been said.

3. Why would characters be scared of guns if they were faster then them. Debunk: characters likely use guns because the piercing damage they have. For example

Without a knife, Angry is capable of no diffing and blitzing Mucho, but when Mucho has a knife, Angry struggles with him and is much more cautious even though he is capable of blitzing him, thats how we know isn't because the speed of the knife, its because the knife is capable of piercing Angry. The same argument can be said for bullets, guns are scary to characters because if a bullet lands, they would likely die, meaning, characters need to be much more cautious around guns which is why they're usually shocked when someone has a gun. The same happens when someone pulls a knife out, characters are shocked. Also, only mid tiers are shocked and they scale to subsonic+ so yeah

Provide a statement of them saying the speed of a gun isn't a problem or that a bullet won't be able to reach them or something, anything that's a character verbatim comparing themselves to bullet speeds, yall have said this for several threads now and still haven't produced the scan when I asked for it so please do so now.

4. Why would characters use guns if they were faster then them. Debunk: The only time a high tier has used a gun was when Izana used it on Mikey as a last resort, when he was beaten up and his limbs were tired, he was likely slower then a gun during that instance.

this doesn't hold up considering Izana is still above a beaten battered tied up chifuyu who has a supersonic+ feat going by the OP a feat you agree to so no actually this doesn't hold up either.


All of the narrative falls apart when you consider these character anything supersonic or above, the setting doesn't work and you end up writing off every anti-feat as an outlier or say its just PIS but when its this consistent its clear that isn't true and that these outliers and PIS explanations only arise when you consider all of these guys to be supersonic and above.


these have all literally been the same retreaded and repeated arguments with nothing new to add from ALL of these past threads so I honestly don't even know why I'm bothering here. This is rejected in my eyes and so far nothing has been new or changed anything. There really should be a discussion rule regarding this considering how many times this has been rejected.

 

[Expectro2000xxx]

By the way, i've noticed that several changes were applied to tokyo revenger's profiles like this one.

@Dalesean027 is that change approved somewhere?

Nah there definitely wasn't a CRT made and accepted for it or any other changes that were applied for whatever reason

The Class 25 thing come from this crt and this accepted calc, however in the crt it was debated the fundamental logic of the calc about screws being torn from a sound instead of the wood of the pew (that logically should be the thing torn first as wood is weaker, on top of no visual indication of torn screws, only relying in a sound that "sound like screws being torn"), no staff actually agreed (except @Firestorm808 if you consider him stating the range of the values if the percentage multiplier was applied) and instead was stated various times that CGM input was needed, Hollow still applied the changes despite because he apparently believes that the fact that a calc get approved in the blog itself means that it isn't needed to also be accepted in its own crt to then get applied to profiles.

 

[Dalesean027]

The Class 25 thing come from this crt and this accepted calc, however in the crt it was debated the fundamental logic of the calc about screws being torn from a sound instead of the wood of the pew (that logically should be the thing torn first as wood is weaker, on top of no visual indication of torn screws, only relying in a sound that "sound like screws being torn"), no staff actually agreed (except @Firestorm808 if you consider him stating the range of the values if the percentage multiplier was applied) and instead was stated various times that CGM input was needed, Hollow still applied the changes despite because he apparently believes that the fact that a calc get approved in the blog itself means that it isn't needed to also be accepted in its own crt to then get applied to profiles.

Already handled now

 

[HollowVanity]

You have to actually give valid reasons for why this is just PIS instead of giving your own headcanon so this doesn't work as a refutation. Simply put if the author wanted them to be supersonic+ he could give them actually blatant bullet timing feats and statements but he doesn't.

Great no one said anything about the Mikey one, that's not what an outlier is the dude just get shot, ofc but that doesn't mean he's magically supersonic outside of the chair and frankly if you think the chifuyu chair feat is valid which you actually do then him being tied up is even less of a point as he'd be supersonic+ and could actually evade the bullet even if he was tied up lol, using the plot as an excuse is a non point this doesn't refute or support either side, funny enough they are Class 25 and that's also not how that works, that's how much force he'd carry moving at that speed but in this case its not even applicable as he could literally just shove them too, you completely ignored what I said about the senju one here so that's also not a debunk

so again nothing of note has been said.

Provide a statement of them saying the speed of a gun isn't a problem or that a bullet won't be able to reach them or something, anything that's a character verbatim comparing themselves to bullet speeds, yall have said this for several threads now and still haven't produced the scan when I asked for it so please do so now.

this doesn't hold up considering Izana is still above a beaten battered tied up chifuyu who has a supersonic+ feat going by the OP a feat you agree to so no actually this doesn't hold up either.


All of the narrative falls apart when you consider these character anything supersonic or above, the setting doesn't work and you end up writing off every anti-feat as an outlier or say its just PIS but when its this consistent its clear that isn't true and that these outliers and PIS explanations only arise when you consider all of these guys to be supersonic and above.


these have all literally been the same retreaded and repeated arguments with nothing new to add from ALL of these past threads so I honestly don't even know why I'm bothering here. This is rejected in my eyes and so far nothing has been new or changed anything. There really should be a discussion rule regarding this considering how many times this has been rejected.

You have to actually give valid reasons for why this is just PIS instead of giving your own headcanon so this doesn't work as a refutation. Simply put if the author wanted them to be supersonic+ he could give them actually blatant bullet timing feats and statements but he doesn't.

Kakucho is capable of blitzing people like Inui, Chifuyu, the Kawata twins/has a much faster speed then below average human running speed, how ever, during the scene where Kisaki was about to shoot him, Kakucho moved so slow, if your saying its not PIS you also have to say that Kisaki > Kakucho, which is just incorrect

Great no one said anything about the Mikey one, that's not what an outlier is the dude just get shot, ofc but that doesn't mean he's magically supersonic outside of the chair and frankly if you think the chifuyu chair feat is valid which you actually do then him being tied up is even less of a point as he'd be supersonic+ and could actually evade the bullet even if he was tied up lol, using the plot as an excuse is a non point this doesn't refute or support either side, funny enough they are Class 25 and that's also not how that works, that's how much force he'd carry moving at that speed but in this case its not even applicable as he could literally just shove them too, you completely ignored what I said about the senju one here so that's also not a debunk

The Mikey one was explained ? He was begging Takemichi to shoot him and was looking away when he got shot.

Chifuyu was shot in the chair because he was drugged and beaten, Idk about the Chifuyu supersonic+ feat but I'm sure morris could explain it.

Draken isn't class 25 ? He's class 10, also, the class 25 feat scales to 10,000 kg, Draken had to move 12612 kg (something he can't do since the highest feat is 10,000 kg).

How would he push them ? Did you see the position they were in ? Also that still requires LS that Draken likely doesn't have since he's weaker then Taiju, I'll make a proper scaling chain for the LS feat soon but Draken caps out at 5000 kg for now.

so again nothing of note has been said.

So realistically Takemichi himself wouldn't need saving and Senju herself being >>>takemichi wouldn't need it either and could move them both before they were ever in any real danger but instead as we see in the original timeline she was shot and died. Before anyone tries to ignore context and say Takemichi jumps on her to protect her and that's why she couldn't move dodge in the original timeline I say that action of jumping on her to shield her was literally only AFTER he knows about the future, he doesn't originally know this would happen so she'd just get shot from that range, and even further on top of that, outside of her being shot nothing about the original timeline is shown so assuming he shields her would be head canon.

For one, Senju here has no feats and no where to scale so we don't even know how strong she is (Senju claimed that she avoided her potential because it could lead Takeomi to the wrong path so she likely didn't scale that high), 2. Even if you still somehow say that Senju was stronger then Takemichi then this feat is just blatant PIS ??? Cause Senju is apparently faster and stronger then Takemichi in your eyes but she can't even get out of the way of his average human speed even though she has subsonic feats and is constantly potrayed as the one of the fastest in the series ? She could hurt South but couldn't stop Takemichi ? Blatant PIS

Provide a statement of them saying the speed of a gun isn't a problem or that a bullet won't be able to reach them or something, anything that's a character verbatim comparing themselves to bullet speeds, yall have said this for several threads now and still haven't produced the scan when I asked for it so please do so now.

Neither of us have statements that characters are afraid of a gun because of their speed or their piercing damage. You don't have a scan that even POINTS to guns being considered dangerous cause their faster. What I did is gave you multiple instances as to why its more then likely the piercing damage. "Without a knife, Angry is capable of no diffing and blitzing Mucho, but when Mucho has a knife, Angry struggles with him and is much more cautious even though he is capable of blitzing him, thats how we know isn't because the speed of the knife, its because the knife is capable of piercing Angry. The same argument can be said for bullets, guns are scary to characters because if a bullet lands, they would likely die, meaning, characters need to be much more cautious around guns which is why they're usually shocked when someone has a gun. The same happens when someone pulls a knife out, characters are shocked. Also, only mid tiers are shocked and they scale to subsonic+ so yeah"

this doesn't hold up considering Izana is still above a beaten battered tied up chifuyu who has a supersonic+ feat going by the OP a feat you agree to so no actually this doesn't hold up either.


All of the narrative falls apart when you consider these character anything supersonic or above, the setting doesn't work and you end up writing off every anti-feat as an outlier or say its just PIS but when its this consistent its clear that isn't true and that these outliers and PIS explanations only arise when you consider all of these guys to be supersonic and above.

Is that feat accepted ?? No, so why would you use it ? Plus Izana's beating was much worse then Chifuyu's beating lol, Izana got hit by Mikey multiple times while being tired, its really one of the worse beatings in TR besides when Mikey kills his opponents, Izana was literally getting folded left right and centre, Chifuyu took nothing compared to what Izana took lol.

I literally gave you the perfect explanations as to why they are PIS but you choose to ignore my arguments and act like you debunked them...

 

[Zefra3011]

I don't really understand where the "Kakucho can blitz Inui, Chifuyu, the Kawata twins" when its not the case, we clearly see them being able to react they just aren't ready/can't counter Kakucho, not to mention the travel speed which is what Kakucho needed in that situation is very very bad in the verse in general, Mikey is top 1 Toman runner (is a translation of the character book) therefore is top tier within the verse so should at least be comparable if not superior to Kakucho, but Mikey costantly needs a motorbike to go in X location in order to help his friends and has 0 travel speed feats, in terms of travel speed the verse caps at superhuman/low subsonic, Kisaki was far away from Kakucho so he didn't have much problem reacting to him also considering he already had the gun pointed at him, Kakucho needed to travel like 7 m while Kisaki just needed to press the trigger.

And again when in the world did Angry blitzed Mucho?? Angry simply outskilled him and Mucho clearly react, also you literally proved that piercing damage isn't a problem as long as you can dodge it, Angry literally avoided a piercing damage attack and never considered it dangerous in first place, also Mucho litterally grabbed him which contraddicts the fact Angry can blitz him.

 

[Zefra3011]

I'll get to everything later, but saying things like "Base Senju" is already out of the window.

Senju was holding back the entire time before chapter 229, and that is PURELY because of Takeomi, after that moment she stopped holding back, there's nothing that says that she's gets weaker after that since she has ZERO reasons to hold back anymore.

Nha saying that for Senju is prefectly fine, when Senju used her full potential we see a visible aura which is never presented again, also before using her full potential Senju was having problem with South, and right after she used that and no diffed him, yes she was holding back because of Takeomi and whatever but she also needed to use it in order to beat South, she had 0 problem in beating up 100 guys so she didn't need to use her full potential in first place + the visible aura isn't showed.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Reminder it was you guys who said they were comparable before this was brought up and you even provided evidence for it so like I'm not taking this in good faith and its still against site standards since there isn't that big a speed discrepancy with these guys given the numerous scans provided in the prior thread thid was brought up at.

We literally were defending Chifuyu and Kojiro not being comparable.

Here is the link;
https://vsbattles.com/threads/mikey-ability-removals.149365/#post-5487575

Thank you

See here, here, here, here even taking my quote from said thread here

We are saying that Ryusei, Baji and Chifuyu are all comparable lol, not Kojiro.

in fact on this point @Dinozxd you yourself agreed that this Senju most certainly has a place to scale even in the previous thread

He changed his mind after @CorbinMLG explained the issue.

Talking in terms of stats and not overall who is stronger, Izana scaling to Base Mikey is completely fine, but there are a lot of characters who actually simply downscale to him too Hanma is the first one who downscales from base Mikey since he was able to block his kick due to his extraordinary vision/reaction and showed comparability with him, he got no diffed by DI Mikey tho, so we have Base Mikey >= Hanma while DI Mikey > Hanma

No, it's due to Mikey's accelerated development. Mikey's physical stats grows faster in comparison to other characters. Mikey wasn't in DI mode when he kick Taiju but the kick delivered to Taiju blitzed Takemichi, which means it gonna blitz Kakucho. If it blitzes Kakucho, it blitzes pretty much the entire verse. Only Izana is safe from the kick.

Draken scales to Hanma as you pointed out, so we have Hanma = Draken, Base South also scales above Draken so we have Base South >= Draken which is also justified by a statment which puts South on pair with Mikey,

Base South and Base Mikey are comparable yet the weakest version of Kakucho can push South to Dark Urges, to the degree higher than when he faced Legendary duo.
And we have the strongest version of Kakucho weaker than Base Mikey, makes sense.
Statements aren't always reliable, the feats just say "No".

Kanto Manji Gang because they still had the Black Dragon first gen spirit

Yet they were willing to use a move that is likely gonna kill Taiju if it landed. I used to share the same reasoning as yours, but by the time inui and Koko were defeated, they showed no remorse, and Taiju said they're all worn out by Inui and Koko. If it's genuinely a low or mid diff, Wala and Benkei wouldn't be worn out as much.

Wakasa and Benkei they should be able to handle Base South but Inui clearly couldn't since when they introduced South we see a post fight Inui vs Base South and Inui was no diffed, therefore is better to keep Inui and Koko just Captains level.

Fear plays a big role, Inui is gonna see South as the guy who defeated the guy (Kakucho)who stomped him badly

Another characters who is usually downplaied is Sanzu who in fact fight on pair with Kakucho.

Because of Katana, without it, he only Ran's level

My guy this is literally posted in this thread and I literally just addressed it, Chifuyu quite literally calls the man fast

Read the post properly please, thank you.

Nha saying that for Senju is prefectly fine

Yes, because it's correct

when Senju used her full potential we see a visible aura

which is never presented again

Yes, it's fades later even in the fight against South.

also before using her full potential Senju was having problem with South, and right after she used that and no diffed him, yes she was holding back because of Takeomi and whatever but she also needed to use it in order to beat South, she had 0 problem in beating up 100 guys so she didn't need to use her full potential in first place + the visible aura isn't showed.

Senju's case isn't that deep, she held back because of Takeomi, she stopped holding back in chapter 229. It's that simple.

 

[Dinozxd]

I'll add this, with the gap in speed suggested by the calc Chifuyu could have no diffed that attack, Kojiro simply downscales from those guys, maybe he is not entirely on their level but they can't dodge close range attacks so a 30x gap in speed is absurd, since Kojiro was like 1-2 m away from Chifuyu and Chifuyu clearly react to the attack and still couldn't dodge it, assuming the attack was 1 cm away from Chifuyu he would have still dodged that with that gap in speed.

Pretty sure this point is nothing new. This was a surprise attack. If Chifuyu not being able to dodge a surprise attack from Kojiro makes Kojiro simply downscale from Chifuyu, then Draken getting hit by a surprise attack here (0:40) would make no name delinquents simply downscale from Draken as well which isn't the case.

Kisaki was far away from Kakucho so he didn't have much problem reacting to him also considering he already had the gun pointed at him, Kakucho needed to travel like 7 m while Kisaki just needed to press the trigger.

Kisaki had to react to Kakucho and press the trigger according to you. Kisaki's reaction is 0.029s, pressing the trigger is 0.014s through my calculation. The distance between Kisaki and Kakucho should be 5 meters acording to my pixel scale, not 7.
5/0.042 = 119 m/s (Subsonic). Kakucho is Subsonic+. He should have blitzed Kisaki.

 

[HollowVanity]

I don't really understand where the "Kakucho can blitz Inui, Chifuyu, the Kawata twins" when its not the case, we clearly see them being able to react they just aren't ready/can't counter Kakucho, not to mention the travel speed which is what Kakucho needed in that situation is very very bad in the verse in general, Mikey is top 1 Toman runner (is a translation of the character book) therefore is top tier within the verse so should at least be comparable if not superior to Kakucho, but Mikey costantly needs a motorbike to go in X location in order to help his friends and has 0 travel speed feats, in terms of travel speed the verse caps at superhuman/low subsonic, Kisaki was far away from Kakucho so he didn't have much problem reacting to him also considering he already had the gun pointed at him, Kakucho needed to travel like 7 m while Kisaki just needed to press the trigger.

And again when in the world did Angry blitzed Mucho?? Angry simply outskilled him and Mucho clearly react, also you literally proved that piercing damage isn't a problem as long as you can dodge it, Angry literally avoided a piercing damage attack and never considered it dangerous in first place, also Mucho litterally grabbed him which contraddicts the fact Angry can blitz him.

I don't really understand where the "Kakucho can blitz Inui, Chifuyu, the Kawata twins" when its not the case, we clearly see them being able to react they just aren't ready/can't counter Kakucho

This is literally a blatant blitz, they only saw him after he outpaced Angry, but he accelerated to the point where neither of them were even able to move.

Mikey is top 1 Toman runner (is a translation of the character book) therefore is top tier within the verse so should at least be comparable if not superior to Kakucho, but Mikey costantly needs a motorbike to go in X location in order to help his friends

I know DAMN well you didn't actually say this, its blatant PIS, your trolling if you think otherwise

and has 0 travel speed feats, in terms of travel speed the verse caps at superhuman/low subsonic

Broski, you just contradicted yourself, Kakucho is far superior to Angry who did this feat, also, this is blatant travel speed mixed with combat speed. Stop waffling

Kisaki was far away from Kakucho so he didn't have much problem reacting to him also considering he already had the gun pointed at him, Kakucho needed to travel like 7 m while Kisaki just needed to press the trigger.

Kisaki literally waited more then a second, did you read the feat ? Its blatant PIS, Kakucho isn't below average human and doesn't scale below Kisaki

also you literally proved that piercing damage isn't a problem as long as you can dodge it, Angry literally avoided a piercing damage attack and never considered it dangerous in first place, also Mucho litterally grabbed him which contraddicts the fact Angry can blitz him.

For one, your assuming Angry didn't consider it dangerous but you have NO backing, your points are all just assumptions with no backing atp.

Also, your point, "piercing damage isn't a problem as long as you dodge it". This proves literally nothing ? It's still a problem, you have to dodge it and always keep focused on the person with a gun because you can get caught off guard and die with one bullet. You literally have nothing that proves its because of the speed of the guns but we have evidence that points towards it being because of the piercing damage of said weapon

 

[Dinozxd]

You have to actually give valid reasons for why this is just PIS instead of giving your own headcanon so this doesn't work as a refutation. Simply put if the author wanted them to be supersonic+ he could give them actually blatant bullet timing feats and statements but he doesn't.

You guys were the ones who refused to give valid and solid reasons in the first debunk thread and your arguments were stuff like "This guy called a gun dangerous weapon" or "this guy could have just break the plot and dodge bullets". None of these arguments suggest that these characters get blitzed or outsped by guns and no the series doesn't need bullet timer feats (it has two and you guys couldn't even debunk that) to be above Supersonic. PTJ verse doesn't have any bullet timer feats, yet it sits at Supersonic+ and it was even Hypersonic before that calc was proven to be mathematically wrong, not an outlier.

I can't believe this verse was debunked from Supersonic+ to Subsonic+ just because you guys were able to use the bad reputation that verse supporters had to get a trash debunk thread accepted.

 

[HollowVanity]

You guys were the ones who refused to give valid and solid reasons in the first debunk thread and your arguments were stuff like "This guy called a gun dangerous weapon" or "this guy could have just break the plot and dodge bullets". None of these arguments suggest that these characters get blitzed or outsped by guns and no the series doesn't need bullet timer feats (it has two and you guys couldn't even debunk that) to be above Supersonic. PTJ verse doesn't have any bullet timer feats, yet it sits at Supersonic+ and it was even Hypersonic before that calc was proven to be mathematically wrong, not an outlier.

I can't believe this verse was debunked from Supersonic+ to Subsonic+ just because you guys were able to use the bad reputation that verse supporters had to get a trash debunk thread accepted.

When you can't debate, get more people on your side by making the other side seem like bad people with shit calcs

 

[Chariot190]

When you can't debate, get more people on your side by making the other side seem like bad people with shit calcs

To be completely fair, you supporting that narrative kinda hard. Cut that shit out.

 

[HollowVanity]

To be completely fair, you supporting that narrative kinda hard. Cut that shit out.

Cut what out ? I was just stating what I saw reading through that one staff thread, they blatantly made fun of TR calcers and their scales

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I agree with Chariot190 here, I appreciate you sticking up for the verse, but that behaviour isn't gonna get us anywhere

 

[Dinozxd]

This is simple, the ability is removed in this thread, but due to bad justification, the actual justification is not addressed there so he should have it back. The ability got accepted by Mr.Duedate here.

I think we can debate that Kid Mikey having Fear Inducement as well since Senju states that DI Mikey's eyes were the same as Kid Mikey's eyes when he tore out Sanzu's mouth.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I think we can debate that Kid Mikey having Fear Inducement as well since Senju states that DI Mikey's eyes were the same as Kid Mikey's eyes when he tore out Sanzu's mouth.

He should have it, yes.
His dark impulses doesn't really change

 

[RoggerReggor]

1) Dark Impulses Mikey should have fear inducement back.
This is simple, the ability is removed in this thread, but due to bad justification, the actual justification is not addressed there so he should have it back. The ability got accepted by Mr.Duedate here.

I do agree that Mikey has fear inducement in his DI form.

2) Fixing the scaling chain.
The scaling chain right now is really bad, everyone got scaled to Subsonic+ even though both the Subsonic+ scales are done by top 2 of the verses, Izana and Mikey.

Only Izana and Mikey should scale to any speed feat done by them.

This is how the scaling chain goes:
Mikey=Izana> South> Kakucho> Takemichi (final arc)> Senju > Angry> Taiju>= Mucho> Wakasa=Benkei> Inui=Koko> Draken> Hanma> Osanai> Mid tiers (Chifuyu, Baji, Ryusei, Kazutora, Mitsuya, Hakkai, Peh Yan, Pah Chin, Smiley, Ran, Rindou, Sanzu, Mochi> Low tiers (Takemichi [before final arc], Kisaki, Akkun, Makoto, Takuya, Yamagishi, Shion, Kojiro).

Reasoning:
Mikey's position is self explanatory.
Izana was able to dominate Mikey in Tenjiku fight even when Mikey was going all out.
South is 3rd because he defeated characters like Kakucho and Senju, and only lost to Mikey, the reason why Izana is higher because South got defeated with low difficulty by Mikey, while Mikey had much harder time against Izana.

Debatable. South fought Mikey 2 years later than Izana did. Mikey has accelerated development, and it messes this up. Secondly, Mikey should be superior to the entire verse easily, including Izana... If you are talking about normal Mikey, then fine.

Mucho defeated Inui with low difficulty, Wakasa and Benkei defeated Inui and Koko with high difficulty. So this makes Mucho scale above Wakasa and Benkei.
The reason why Inui and Koko scales higher than Draken is because Wakasa fought Base South a lot better than Draken did, and Inui and Koko are only slightly weaker than Wakasa and Benkei.

Draken scales above Hanma because he defeated Hanma, however it is with a high difficulty.

Osanai defeated Pah Chin, who's a mid tier, with a low difficulty, so by default, Osanai scales above all mid tiers.

Scaling Taiju is a bit hard, but we can know that he defeated Inui with low difficulty, same as Mucho.
Angry scales above Taiju because Taiju had problem fighting against Wakasa and Benkei although he defeated them, while Angry was capable of defeating Mucho with a low difficulty, who should be A LOT stronger than Wakasa or Benkei. But we don't really know how Mucho would deal with both of them. So Taiju and Mucho would be pretty relative, but it doesn't hurt to place Taiju higher than Mucho since he has better narrative.

Kakucho scales above Angry because he defeated Angry with low difficulty.
Takemichi in the final arc is relative to Kakucho, but I placed Kakucho higher since he was much more physically active during Tenjiku arc than in final arc.

The hardest part is deciding where Senju scales since only her notable serious fight is against South.
We'd have to use Kakucho as a base for the scaling of Senju.
Kakucho in the final arc was supposed to get KO'D by Takemichi (since Takemichi's full power was revealed), but then after Mikey mentioned about Izana, Kakucho got back his fighting spirit and he went comparable to Takemichi.
So we have two different versions of Kakucho, the one without fighting spirit who was depressed because of Izana's death and the one with fighting spirit, the difference between these two Kakucho(s) is very high since like I said, the Kakucho with fighting spirit can (who was comparable to Takemichi) can KO Kakucho without fighting spirit in a single hit.

The Kakucho without the fighting spirit is already absurdly strong, because in the flashbacks he was able to push South to his dark urges, and when Senju knocked south down, South said that it's been a while since he's that fired up, he should be directly referencing the fight he had with Kakucho since he tend to recruit the stronger members to his gang, here he recruited the S-62 generation and Kakucho.
Also when the legendary duo got upper hand against South, South looked down on them, but when Kakucho was knocked out by Mikey, he was very surprised.

South with urges has three different versions, the first one is when he was against the legendary duo, the second is stronger and it is when he fought Senju, the third one is the strongest, and that was against Mikey.

The South Kakucho fought is in between the first and second version, with second version being closer.

So based on this, Kakucho with fighting spirit can KO the Kakucho who is near South second urge version and Senju. So Kakucho with fighting spirit will scale above Senju.

So, only Izana and Mikey should scale to feats done by them.
South, Kakucho, Takemichi, Senju and Angry should be in the same vaccum.
Taiju and Mucho should scale similarly.
Wakasa, Benkei, Inui and Koko should also scale to one another.
Same with Draken and Hanma.
Osanai should be above mid tiers, but lower than Draken and Hanma.
All mid tiers should scale to one another.
Low tiers are characters who can get KO'D by mid tiers with a single strike, their scaling is not that consistent, they're just slightly stronger than average delinquents.

Agree with all of this, just that Izana and South scaling argument...

3) Clarifying Izana's gun feat.
This is the entire feat.

I find this really funny how this feat got removed, someone tried to remove the Izana's feat in this thread which was dedicated to remove other feats. The guy was rather clueless about the context of Izana body's moving on its own being related to the feat itself, so I brought up that and addressed that Izana's body moved in reaction to the gun being fired, the guy then randomly said that Izana's reaction was Kisaki's saying "Die", I told him why he was wrong, he never did address any of my points and randomly said that this feat is not for the thread even though he brought it up. And he then said the same thing he said before in this thread without being able to debunk any of the things I've brought up before, and then sadly, it was automatically agreed upon by Therefir without any of the genuine supporters being able to voice their opinions.

I'll just say what I've said before to rebunk the feat. This got ignored like 4 times, so I'll say it here.

The first Gunshot was shown EXCLUSIVELY on Kisaki's panel, meaning the gun was shot first, Izana's movement was only depicted right after that. But some people (mainly fans of characters/verses whom Mikey/Tokyo Revengers is compared to) aren't satisfied with that, I'll give a deeper explanation.

So, Izana's movement when he saved Kakucho was involuntary, as he mentioned his body moved on its own. The narrative in the chapter's conclusion also supports this notion. This leads us to consider two potential triggers, the gunshot or Kisaki's statement "Die."
Izana reacting to Kisaki saying "Die" blatantly defies storytelling principles. In stories, it's customary to depict a character's reaction immediately after the triggering event to emphasize the cause-and-effect relationship. In this case, Izana only appears in the third panel. What's more, the panel between Kisaki's saying "Die" and Izana saving Kakucho has crucial moment which is a gun being fired. Delaying the character's appearance while showing significant events like a gunshot can create confusion and disrupt the narrative's cause-and-effect flow, now this suggest that Izana indeed didn't react to Kisaki's words. To put it simply, the first gunshot was tied exclusively to Kisaki's panel and Izana was shown right at the next panel, which means Izana reacted to the gunshot.

I'm gonna add another thing, we can know that the guy with the gun was entirely and absolutely blitzed since he didn't see Izana running towards saving Kakucho, so if Izana was reacting to the "Die" it means he will already be there before Kisaki started shooting.
This drawing exists.
Izana had a lot of motion lines on him.
If you're asking what value this holds, if Izana's movement truly was done even before the 2nd panel even starts then it's unnecessary to draw a lot motion lines on him. Motion lines are meant to show ongoing action within a single moment, so if the action is already completed, they can create confusion. This shows that the action is happening in that panel itself. Like bro, if there are 3 panels, and the action of a character is done even before 2nd panel even starts, it's unnecessary to draw a lot of motion lines in the 3rd one, it just goes against how events in mangas are written. If Izana truly was already there before the gun even get shot, there will be no motion lines on him as his movement will already be completed.

I have debated with you on this in Second22's CRT and as we know, that never proceeded.

First of all, I will just address a lot of things:
1. Kisaki's gunshots: While most of the people say that Kisaki fired the gunshot before Izana came, that's good, but there's not really explaining it besides the fact that just the gunshot SFX text overlaps the manga panels. But the same gunshots SFX text overlap the Takemichi and all the panels at the same time. The overlapping is not the indication of when the firing is done because the one which is the most above is not even fully visible in the page, so we cannot be completely sure if author is really trying to do something like that.

2. Izana's reaction to?: Izana stated that his body moved on its own, but for moving on own, you need some stimuli which makes you do so. The first thing was Kakucho doing "RAAAAA!" thing, second was Kisaki saying "DIE.", third was the gunshot. You cannot really say that Izana only reacted to the gunshot, that would be doing it without any good reason.

Secondly, what's this "if Izana was reacting to the "Die" it means he will already be there before Kisaki started shooting."? Lol, this needs a lot of backing up. First of all, we don't know how faster Kakucho is than Izana, because both are high tiers of the verse. Kakucho was running towards Kisaki and Izana was doing the same, Izana is faster than Kakucho so he reaches faster. This really doesn't prove anything.

Motion lines don't show ongoing actions every time, they are sometimes plainly drawn to show an object directionally moving. The same motion lines are around Kisaki's arm as well which should rise above through Beretta's recoil, that doesn't mean he's actively doing that movement.

I have said this multiple times and would repeat myself again, WAIT FOR THE ANIME ADAPTATION FOR THE FEAT, WE ONLY ASSUME.

4) Addressing Chifuyu's feat
This calculation, and following this thread specifically, I gave up on that thread since our side can't really win, most users in that thread are just instinctively against that feat even though they can't really prove the thing they even claim, I also find it funny how no admins or thread mods reject the thread but got closed, DDM agreed with the upgrade, but not the multiplier, but it still got closed.

The maths and method for this got accepted in the previous thread, but it's denied and deemed an outlier due to breaking this rule, the rule basically states that when two characters are comparable and a calculation results in the other characters being a lot faster, then the feat is an outlier. But that's not the case since the characters are falsely claimed to be comparable to one another.

So, I'll have to explain why Chifuyu and Kojiro has big speed difference.

Baji and Ryusei and comparable and Chifuyu and Ryusei are comparable, so based on this we can establish that they're all comparable to one another.

The feat got rejected based on this where Chifuyu said that Kojiro is fast.

There's one thing I want to point out here, when someone is perceived weak by default, and they suddenly surpass those perceived expectations, it's a typical reaction for others to be surprised by what they do even if they're not necessarily stronger or as strong as them, or even as fast as them.

I'll give an example from the show itself, Takemichi was considered really weak in the entirety of Tokyo Revengers, but in the final arc his true power was revealed, he was able to punch and fly Kakucho some meters away, it surprises everyone including Mikey, this is the final arc where Mikey didn't show much emotions until this moment. Although Mikey is still MASSIVELY SUPERIOR to Takemichi, he was surprised by it. This is what Mikey can actually do to Takemichi.

Here, Kojiro had to use an electronic device to render Chifuyu unconscious and tie him up, and on top of that he's really short and skinny, so by default, Chifuyu is gonna consider him weak.

To prove that there is a big speed difference between them, shortly after Chifuyu called Kojiro fast, Kojiro was unable to hit Baji whom Chifuyu is comparable to, even though Baji was off guard, this speaks volume about their difference in speed.

And here Kojiro got one-shot by Ryusei, the guy comparable to Chifuyu. Here, when Ryusei's arm movement was already completed, Kojiro's arm either didn't really move, or it moved really little. This proves a big speed difference.

Additionally, the calculation I made also can be used to prove that the speed difference is big.

So, Kojiro is NOT comparable to Ryusei, Chifuyu or Baji, so the feat is legitimate.

I am pretty sure most of the CGMs rejected that feat plainly because of the distance problems, which is common in TR because we had the Izana calc for around 1.5 years and nobody really doubted it lol.

5) Debunking the notion that Tokyo Revengers characters' speed should be below bullets.

I'm gonna divide this into 2 parts, the 1st will be debunking the claims for the particular feats, and the 2nd being why you can't just limit them.

Part 1:

The claim is this, "Senju a top tier character can't do anything to save Draken from getting shot by a gun"

This version of Senju is not in the scaling vacuum, she has no feats of fighting anyone.
Basically, that thing happens in chapter 220 and 221. These are the scans of chapter 229, here Senju claimed that she avoided her potential because it could lead Takeomi to the wrong path.
Therefore, the claim that the characters of the verse should be below guns is invalid, since Senju at the time doesn't scale anywhere.

Too bad Senju is not suppressed to do it. Her realization of saving Takeomi does nothing because in Takemichi's future sight we see Senju dying, and that just means that Senju was even ready to die rofl, this doesn't prove anything. Secondly, I am pretty sure Senju is specifically referring to Takeomi here and there's no Takeomi in the frame when the feat gets performed.

Another claim is this, "Kakucho one of the fastest character in the verse can't do anything against a gun and had to be saved by Izana"

If we were to accept that this scene limits Kakucho, we'll also have to accept that Kakucho has below average human speed and he scales below Kisaki since Kakucho was only around 4-7m away there (depending on panel used) and Kisaki had time to watch him running towards him, say "Die" and pull the trigger.
Yes, this is pure PIS, Kakucho is capable of outspeeding characters who are capable of blizting Kisaki, but here Kakucho had to run at below average human speed.
Unless we wanna accept that Kakucho scales below Kisaki, this is PIS.

Bullet > Kakucho > Kisaki. Secondly, I am pretty sure Kisaki is around superhuman already. If he pulls the trigger at 20 m/s for 2 cm, he would still be at 0.001 s which is higher than even the perception time levels, even 10 m/s gives human perception level (currently accepted) lol.

Also I wanna add two things,
1) The goons that carried the gun with them only targeted Takemichi when Senju was away from him, they only came out after Senju got away from Takemichi.

This is a good point honestly, but you know that Senju is a literal high tier of the verse right? The goons could just be afraid of Senju beating them up without them being sure of Senju being able to dodge bullets.

2) Kisaki had to drug chifuyu and tie him up even when he had a gun.

This strongly implies that even when they have a gun, they don't really have the guts to take on certain characters.

This isn't even... Kisaki only drugged Chifuyu because he had a devious plan of killing both Takemichi and Chifuyu at the same time, this shouldn't be a debate.

Part 2:

Now let's pretend (keyword: pretend) that everything I just said above is incorrect (which is obviously not true), you still can't limit them using "bullet speed>" argument, I'll explain why.

In Tokyo Revengers, how dangerous weapons with instant lethality are exaggerated, much to the point that it overrides the other elements of said weapons. I'll explain how.

Here, Angry one-shot Mucho, we can see that the speed and power gap is huge. Mucho then pulled up a knife, here it overwhelms Angry even though Angry is a lot faster, and even Takemichi who just witnessed their different in strength. The situation got too bad to the point Kakucho had to interfere in it.

Just a Judo throw lol. Even real-life professionals can overpower each other like this without being much different in speed levels. Secondly, Angry didn't one-shot Mucho, he threw him on the ground which seems to be concrete and here it triggers the activity of the cranium which can make a person pass out as soon as they are thrown, regardless of their tier, if I may say.

Here Kakucho fought against Sanzu in the final arc but Sanzu was suddenly on par with him and Kakucho lost despite him being massively faster than Sanzu.

Kakucho has a past fight with Takemichi already. Secondly, he even takes a hit from Sanzu's sword. If we rewind this 2 years ago, we see Kakucho taking a gunshot which could be said to have inflicted similar injuries on a lower scale to be honest. This just proves that Kakucho is incredibly low in pain tolerance, he cannot take such injuries for each time.
Against Kisaki as well, you said that he should be around athletic human and I would say he can be supersonic and that still wouldn't solve it as I argued with the Kisaki timeframe earlier.
Kakucho's pain tolerance is less, and he gets weaker when he is inflicted such injuries.

Their difference in power is like this:

Kakucho defeated Angry, Angry defeated Mucho with low difficulty, Mucho defeated Inui with low difficulty, Wakasa and Benkei defeated Inui and Koko with high difficulty, Wakasa fought Base south a lot better than Draken did, so Inui > Draken either mid-high difficulty. Draken can defeat Hanma with high difficulty, Hanma fought on par with Mikey in the beginning of the series.
Mikey can defeat higher end of mid tier characters like Baji and Pah Chin with low difficulty since they were kids.
Characters like Baji are equal to characters like Mitsuya, Mitsuya defeated Ran with mid-high difficulty, Ran and Sanzu are comparable.

When long sharp objects like Katana or other swords are considered dangerous, the main problem usually lies in the fact that that can kill instantly, and the other problems being the range and the skill of the wielder.
Ran had baton when he was against Mitsuya (who's a mid tier too), but still lost, and he too had baton against Sanzu and Sanzu was using metal pipe, they fought on par, metal pipe and Katana are around the same length, so the range isn't the problem here, skills only starts to matter when the speed of the character is good, especially in this case since it's a fictional work where stats different are much more severe, here Sanzu is still nowhere near Kakucho when it comes to speed.

The thing is, a metal pipe doesn't instantly kill you while a sword does, so it doesn't matter if the characters take any kind of pipe hit, but sword hits can kill them instantly. This never means the instantly lethal weapons are exaggerated, this is the case in real life as well, you would never be afraid of a pipe and be able to dodge it and you should be able to dodge a katana as well, but the thing is that you really don't take risk because you are at a life-death stake.

Here, Takemichi was about to be killed by Sanzu and he had to be saved by Taiju. This Takemichi is directly relative to Kakucho. So even though Takemichi is far superior, he still was about to lose.

When characters are being overwhelmed by guns the default assumption is that it is due to the fact that they can kill instantly and has speed that can't really be reacted, so it's the damage and the speed that's the problem by default.

But what I just wrote proves that in this verse, weapons with instant lethality overwhelms characters even if the said characters are far faster than them.

While that doesn't automatically say that the characters are faster than guns, it does neutralize the default assumption that the speed is the problem.

So in this case, if anyone thinks speed is the problem, the burden of proof falls on them to prove it.

Yeah that's it.

Would like to add more. Humans are like around 20 m/s for their peak. Still, upto 97.22222222 m/s can be reached by some peak humans for sword slicing. The speed is also the problem here, it is highly possible that the characters just become much faster than their usual self.

 

[RoggerReggor]

Also, I am not trying to say that only my assumptions are possible, I am just trying to prove that both can be possible because both the sides are assuming (unless there is really something backing the assumptions from either side).

 

[Dinozxd]

1. Kisaki's gunshots: While most of the people say that Kisaki fired the gunshot before Izana came, that's good, but there's not really explaining it besides the fact that just the gunshot SFX text overlaps the manga panels. But the same gunshots SFX text overlap the Takemichi and all the panels at the same time. The overlapping is not the indication of when the firing is done because the one which is the most above is not even fully visible in the page, so we cannot be completely sure if author is really trying to do something like that.

I don't understand any of this. A gun sfx overlapping with a panel literally means that those gunshots happen at the same time the panel takes place. Kisaki shoots the first bullet and we see the second sfx overlapping with the panel where Izana saves Kakucho. This means Izana completely outsped the first bullet.

2. Izana's reaction to?: Izana stated that his body moved on its own, but for moving on own, you need some stimuli which makes you do so. The first thing was Kakucho doing "RAAAAA!" thing, second was Kisaki saying "DIE.", third was the gunshot. You cannot really say that Izana only reacted to the gunshot, that would be doing it without any good reason.

Morris clarifies which stimuli Izana reacts so please read the thread fully first before commenting.

I am pretty sure most of the CGMs rejected that feat plainly because of the distance problems, which is common in TR because we had the Izana calc for around 1.5 years and nobody really doubted it lol.

So the whole 315 reply thread is just CGMs telling us that the distance in the calc is wrong? Seems logical.

Too bad Senju is not suppressed to do it. Her realization of saving Takeomi does nothing because in Takemichi's future sight we see Senju dying, and that just means that Senju was even ready to die rofl, this doesn't prove anything.

What does this even mean?

Secondly, I am pretty sure Senju is specifically referring to Takeomi here and there's no Takeomi in the frame when the feat gets performed.

I don't understand how this is an argument. Senju just holds back until she fights South. Casual Senju doesn't scale anywhere.

This is a good point honestly, but you know that Senju is a literal high tier of the verse right? The goons could just be afraid of Senju beating them up without them being sure of Senju being able to dodge bullets.

They could have just shot Senju if she was slower than a gun? If you have a gun vs a character slower than a bullet, you will just win. That's literally it.

The thing is, a metal pipe doesn't instantly kill you while a sword does, so it doesn't matter if the characters take any kind of pipe hit, but sword hits can kill them instantly. This never means the instantly lethal weapons are exaggerated, this is the case in real life as well, you would never be afraid of a pipe and be able to dodge it and you should be able to dodge a katana as well, but the thing is that you really don't take risk because you are at a life-death stake.

You missed the whole point. Sanzu massively downscales from Kakucho in speed with a pipe but he still manages to overwhelm him when he has a Katana. The speed difference of a person swinging a pipe and a sword should be either the same or really really close. How would Sanzu overwhelm Kakucho when the speed difference between them is this big then? Because lethality weapons are exaggerated in the verse which is our point here.

Still, upto 97.22222222 m/s can be reached by some peak humans for sword slicing.

Need to see some source about that one.

The speed is also the problem here, it is highly possible that the characters just become much faster than their usual self.

Let's assume that humans can actually swing swords at 97 m/s. You know Kakucho scales to Subsonic+ right? How is 97 m/s speed a problem when Kakucho scales above it?

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

First of all, I will just address a lot of things:
1. Kisaki's gunshots: While most of the people say that Kisaki fired the gunshot before Izana came, that's good, but there's not really explaining it besides the fact that just the gunshot SFX text overlaps the manga panels. But the same gunshots SFX text overlap the Takemichi and all the panels at the same time. The overlapping is not the indication of when the firing is done because the one which is the most above is not even fully visible in the page, so we cannot be completely sure if author is really trying to do something like that.

I think you aren't reading my posts properly, the first SFX was shown EXCLUSIVELY on Kisaki's panel.

2. Izana's reaction to?: Izana stated that his body moved on its own, but for moving on own, you need some stimuli which makes you do so. The first thing was Kakucho doing "RAAAAA!" thing, second was Kisaki saying "DIE.", third was the gunshot. You cannot really say that Izana only reacted to the gunshot, that would be

You're ignoring what I said again, the thing is, Kisaki was entirely blitzed, so it's something happening in an instant.

Motion lines don't show ongoing actions every time, they are sometimes plainly drawn to show an object directionally moving. The same motion lines are around Kisaki's arm as well which should rise above through Beretta's recoil, that doesn't mean he's actively doing that movement.

Here it does, Kisaki's hands were moved because he shot the gun. Here what wakui wants to show is Izana saving Kakucho, that's it.

Too bad Senju is not suppressed to do it. Her realization of saving Takeomi does nothing because in Takemichi's future sight we see Senju dying, and that just means that Senju was even ready to die rofl, this doesn't prove anything. Secondly, I am pretty sure Senju is specifically referring to Takeomi here and there's no Takeomi in the frame when the feat gets performed.

This doesn't really disprove anything. Senju was holding back the entire time before chapter 229.

Bullet > Kakucho > Kisaki. Secondly, I am pretty sure Kisaki is around superhuman already. If he pulls the trigger at 20 m/s for 2 cm, he would still be at 0.001 s which is higher than even the perception time levels, even 10 m/s gives human perception level (currently accepted) lol.

A character being superhuman doesn't mean every of their actions are superhuman. The more distance is moved the larger the object. Kisaki's finger isn't a long thing.

This is a good point honestly, but you know that Senju is a literal high tier of the verse right? The goons could just be afraid of Senju beating them up without them being sure of Senju being able to dodge bullets.

Yeah even with a gun, they aren't really willing to take on Senju, that says "Gun is useless against Senju" which proves one thing more than the other.

This isn't even... Kisaki only drugged Chifuyu because he had a devious plan of killing both Takemichi and Chifuyu at the same time, this shouldn't be a debate.

He wouldn't need to do that if he could genuinely take them on with a gun.

Just a Judo throw lol. Even real-life professionals can overpower each other like this without being much different in speed levels. Secondly, Angry didn't one-shot Mucho, he threw him on the ground which seems to be concrete and here it triggers the activity of the cranium which can make a person pass out as soon as they are thrown, regardless of their tier, if I may say.

Look at how he countered it, Angry's leg wrapped Mucho's neck when Mucho wasn't seen to be moving much. And Mucho only got up because he remembered what Izana and Mikey told him, he was supposed to be KO'D if it wasn't for Mikey's and Izana's words.

The thing is, a metal pipe doesn't instantly kill you while a sword does, so it doesn't matter if the characters take any kind of pipe hit, but sword hits can kill them instantly. This never means the instantly lethal weapons are exaggerated, this is the case in real life as well, you would never be afraid of a pipe and be able to dodge it and you should be able to dodge a katana as well, but the thing is that you really don't take risk because you are at a life-death stake.

I think you agreed with me here, you're proving my point. The same is with guns because they can kill instantly, thank you.
I'm talking about exaggerated as in how the characters react to them despite the speed difference.

Would like to add more. Humans are like around 20 m/s for their peak. Still, upto 97.22222222 m/s can be reached by some peak humans for sword slicing. The speed is also the problem here, it is highly possible that the characters just become much faster than their usual self.

Yes, nothing disproves the speed gap.

 

[Dalesean027]

not gonna comment on the ones Rogger already got to

The Mikey one was explained ? He was begging Takemichi to shoot him and was looking away when he got shot.

Chifuyu was shot in the chair because he was drugged and beaten, Idk about the Chifuyu supersonic+ feat but I'm sure morris could explain it.

again no one commented on the Mikey one, please actually read, Chifuyu was literally tied up and beaten in the supersonic+ feat that you yourself accept, if you don't even know the feat then you shouldn't just blindly accept it

We are saying that Ryusei, Baji and Chifuyu are all comparable lol, not Kojiro.

also you my guy you can't say that when yall literally used this and these exist

My guy this is literally posted in this thread and I literally just addressed it, Chifuyu quite literally calls the man fast

I'll add this, with the gap in speed suggested by the calc Chifuyu could have no diffed that attack, Kojiro simply downscales from those guys, maybe he is not entirely on their level but they can't dodge close range attacks so a 30x gap in speed is absurd, since Kojiro was like 1-2 m away from Chifuyu and Chifuyu clearly react to the attack and still couldn't dodge it, assuming the attack was 1 cm away from Chifuyu he would have still dodged that with that gap in speed.

so yeah he's quite comparable enough for Chifuyu to think he was fast and get caught by him in other scenarios without being able to react.

Draken isn't class 25 ? He's class 10, also, the class 25 feat scales to 10,000 kg, Draken had to move 12612 kg (something he can't do since the highest feat is 10,000 kg).

How would he push them ? Did you see the position they were in ? Also that still requires LS that Draken likely doesn't have since he's weaker then Taiju, I'll make a proper scaling chain for the LS feat soon but Draken caps out at 5000 kg for now.

That's not what that means, again actually listen my good sir, that's a measure of the force he carries going at that speed he isn't physically carrying that weight he actually doesn't even scale to that specific measure of weight. If he were to grab them during that motion it wouldn't even qualify for KE and LS scaling at that speed unless there was precedent for it

Neither of us have statements that characters are afraid of a gun because of their speed or their piercing damage. You don't have a scan that even POINTS to guns being considered dangerous cause their faster. What I did is gave you multiple instances as to why its more then likely the piercing damage. "Without a knife, Angry is capable of no diffing and blitzing Mucho, but when Mucho has a knife, Angry struggles with him and is much more cautious even though he is capable of blitzing him, thats how we know isn't because the speed of the knife, its because the knife is capable of piercing Angry. The same argument can be said for bullets, guns are scary to characters because if a bullet lands, they would likely die, meaning, characters need to be much more cautious around guns which is why they're usually shocked when someone has a gun. The same happens when someone pulls a knife out, characters are shocked. Also, only mid tiers are shocked and they scale to subsonic+ so yeah

absolute buffooneries you don't have any other piece of conjecture other than you're head canon the guy who gets shot and killed by a gun he didn't react to is because of piercing damage, you make this claim without any actual statements to back that up, as far as this series goes not a single person has been shown blatantly reacting to bullets or even saying piercing damage is all they care about, and I don't need to prove this as the burden of proof falls on you since your claim is that its only due to piercing damage. Me taking the scan as is as Occam's razor dictates would mean guns are dangerous because they're guns, and considering this verse's general showings without calcs we'd take that as guns are guns and obviously if someone shoots at them they can't do anything be it dodge or tank the shots. Actually if you further assume these character are supersonic+ the statement itself falls apart as even the Chifuyu tiers would never have to worry about a gun at any range that's 2m away or above let alone the guys yall think are hypersonic. Also my guy he isn't blitzing him at all, you desperately need to check what we define a blitz is, Angry is actively dodging and reacting to that knife, bro doesn't get an amp because he just has a knife, we don't assign higher speeds with a weapon just because they have a blade or a bat or something, that's not how that works especially already dealing with these characters who are subsonic+.

This is literally a blatant blitz, they only saw him after he outpaced Angry, but he accelerated to the point where neither of them were even able to move.

your own scan doesn't even support that they say "what" cause he just no diffed Angry and flung him heck even Inui reacts to him and raises his arms in the panel you sent and even in this one they all still see him coming and react Chifuyu turns his head and looks at his approach.


Heck the fact that Takemichi even hears him before he gets there means that bro is blatantly not even moving at transonic let alone supersonic speeds as he isn't outpacing his own sound, in fact even assume a blitz is just inserting your own headcanon when the only thing they commented on to begin with was only his strength and how he took them all out it "one hit" not how he is faster than sound

Broski, you just contradicted yourself, Kakucho is far superior to Angry who did this feat, also, this is blatant travel speed mixed with combat speed. Stop waffling

those aren't travel speeds my guy, Me running 100 miles away in 5 seconds is a travel speed feat, these are combat feats done in burst over distances no longer than even 5m~10m just blatant combat speeds


that said I can already see this is going to be circular so I'm going to leave my sound outright rejection to this thread for everything aside from the fear inducement

 

[Antvasima]

Were all of the links above corrected so they began to work properly, and if so, did you check through them all?

 

[Dalesean027]

Were all of the links above corrected so they began to work properly, and if so, did you check through them all?

nope they have not and yeah I did, its all the wiki links to other threads that he's using to say things were addressed in (any of the scans coming directly from the series itself are working but his wiki links are broken which was the case from the start)

 

[Zefra3011]

No, it's due to Mikey's accelerated development. Mikey's physical stats grows faster in comparison to other characters. Mikey wasn't in DI mode when he kick Taiju but the kick delivered to Taiju blitzed Takemichi, which means it gonna blitz Kakucho. If it blitzes Kakucho, it blitzes pretty much the entire verse. Only Izana is safe from the kick.

Where exactly is stated Mikey magically becomes stronger each arc? Also the profile so I won't discuss this, we have Base Mikey fighting with Hanma while DI Mikey no diffing Hanma, we have Base South fighting the legendary duo while DI South no diff the legendary duo (all the scans are above), so please, prove Mikey becomes stronger and faster randomly and South can becomes esponentially stronger in some seconds.

Base South and Base Mikey are comparable yet the weakest version of Kakucho can push South to Dark Urges, to the degree higher than when he faced Legendary duo.

Uh... proof? To me that was a Base South

Statements aren't always reliable, the feats just say "No".

I just added that as supporting evidence, it was no where near my main point.

Yet they were willing to use a move that is likely gonna kill Taiju if it landed.

They knew they were at their limit so it was their only solution, also my main point was that Inui was 1st gen like the duo, Taiju isn't and had another comlpete spirit, they didn't care to the same degree they cared about Inui.

I used to share the same reasoning as yours, but by the time inui and Koko were defeated, they showed no remorse,

Is not like they wanted to lose, just they didn't want to hospitalize Inui.

and Taiju said they're all worn out by Inui and Koko. If it's genuinely a low or mid diff, Wala and Benkei wouldn't be worn out as much.

They weren't tired only because of Inui and Koko, they were also tired because the were constantly hitting Taiju (they were going all out there) and Taiju just didn't go down, it's visible they weren't tired before fighting him, I would also get tired if I hit ***** for several minutes. Also again your scaling chain put Wakasa and benkei astronomically lower than South when they clearly fought on pair lol, I sent the scan above.

Fear plays a big role, Inui is gonna see South as the guy who defeated the guy (Kakucho)who stomped him badly

Nah, your scaling chain put South far superior than Inui while nowyou are saying he only lost due to fear which is kinda bullshit lol, was Inui aware South could beat Kakucho? Also it doesn't matter like they would be relative in stats he would have noticed he could have done something, your just assuming the whole shit.

Because of Katana, without it, he only Ran's level

I guess so, I mean using a katana at the end of the day "increase your speed", the katana would move faster than your arm so I guess we can put sanzu with a weapon on that level and Sanzu without just captain level?

Yes, because it's correct

Are you agreeing with me here?

Yes, it's fades later even in the fight against South.

Like.. even DI vanishes after the activation so?

Senju's case isn't that deep, she held back because of Takeomi, she stopped holding back in chapter 229. It's that simple.

Nah just because something is self explenatory for you doesn't mean it's the correct version

Pretty sure this point is nothing new. This was a surprise attack. If Chifuyu not being able to dodge a surprise attack from Kojiro makes Kojiro simply downscale from Chifuyu, then Draken getting hit by a surprise attack here (0:40) would make no name delinquents simply downscale from Draken as well which isn't the case.

I get were you are going but it wasn't the only point, is that point + Chifuyu saying he is fast + the fact Chifuyu never actually blitzed him + that calc implies his travel speed is super+ when god/high tiers don't have an higher speed than motorbikes.

Kisaki had to react to Kakucho and press the trigger according to you. Kisaki's reaction is 0.029s, pressing the trigger is 0.014s through my calculation. The distance between Kisaki and Kakucho should be 5 meters acording to my pixel scale, not 7.
5/0.042 = 119 m/s (Subsonic). Kakucho is Subsonic+. He should have blitzed Kisaki.

the unaccepted calculation which used the wrong formula as timeframe = distance / speed while you used distance / aceleration which is completely bullshit? I see your point here

This is literally a blatant blitz, they only saw him after he outpaced Angry, but he accelerated to the point where neither of them were even able to move.

people litterally react and try to defend theirself, your logic is: I can't neutrilize something = that thing is astronomically faster than me

I know DAMN well you didn't actually say this, its blatant PIS, your trolling if you think otherwise

exactly when did Mikey travel 1000 m in 1 s?

Broski, you just contradicted yourself, Kakucho is far superior to Angry who did this feat, also, this is blatant travel speed mixed with combat speed. Stop waffling

So if I can have a fight with Usain Bolt it means my travel speed is the same as him, nice, also Angry just like Izana are only able to make fast dashes and not costantly run in circle without being seen by people.

Kisaki literally waited more then a second, did you read the feat ? Its blatant PIS, Kakucho isn't below average human and doesn't scale below Kisaki

You mean because he talk? that also happens during the feat I calculate for Mikey's LS, dialogues in fiction are just inconsistent especially in the mangas since they don't really account for that, if you want to go this way my calc can't be used, probably not even the Angry feat since Ran can actually move his head and think during the feat which would mean Angry needed more than a second by your logic.

For one, your assuming Angry didn't consider it dangerous but you have NO backing, your points are all just assumptions with no backing atp.

I'm pretty sure that's a negative claim so....

Also, your point, "piercing damage isn't a problem as long as you dodge it". This proves literally nothing ? It's still a problem, you have to dodge it and always keep focused on the person with a gun because you can get caught off guard and die with one bullet. You literally have nothing that proves its because of the speed of the guns but we have evidence that points towards it being because of the piercing damage of said weapon

yes and if the characters were truly super+ they could dodge them, they can't unfortunately.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

also you my guy you can't say that when yall literally used this and these exist
so yeah he's quite comparable enough for Chifuyu to think he was fast and get caught by him in other scenarios without being able to react.

That isn't even actual fight, he was off-guard. If we were to use this logic then we should proceed to scale NoNames to Draken since Draken didn't block the bat when he was off-guard.

And for the "fast", you still haven't responded to my points.

There's one thing I want to point out here, when someone is perceived weak by default, and they suddenly surpass those perceived expectations, it's a typical reaction for others to be surprised by what they do even if they're not necessarily stronger or as strong as them, or even as fast as them.

I'll give an example from the show itself, Takemichi was considered really weak in the entirety of Tokyo Revengers, but in the final arc his true power was revealed, he was able to punch and fly Kakucho some meters away, it surprises everyone including Mikey, this is the final arc where Mikey didn't show much emotions until this moment. Although Mikey is still MASSIVELY SUPERIOR to Takemichi, he was surprised by it. This is what Mikey can actually do to Takemichi.

 

[Zefra3011]

Should we get like a thread mod or something to follow this?

 

[Antvasima]

nope they have not and yeah I did, its all the wiki links to other threads that he's using to say things were addressed in (any of the scans coming directly from the series itself are working but his wiki links are broken which was the case from the start)

Is somebody willing to correct all of the links and then post them here, so this thread can be properly evaluated, please?

 

[Dalesean027]

That isn't even actual fight, he was off-guard. If we were to use this logic then we should proceed to scale NoNames to Draken since Draken didn't block the bat when he was off-guard.

bruh he is literally fighting Baji and Chifuyu is calling him fast and hyping him up its pretty blatant

And for the "fast", you still haven't responded to my points.

cause specific point this is irrelevant and just reads as another excuse right alongside every PIS or the plot needed it type excuse because so far that hasn't pertained to any of the feats I've commented on

 

[ImmortalDread]

Is somebody willing to correct all of the links and then post them here, so this thread can be properly evaluated, please?

I will check if I can.

 

[Dalesean027]

Ant I feel as though we can get some content or thread mods along some CGMs here already as these are just the same previous arguments from literally like every other thread, I do feel that after several dozens of threads heck there apparently 6 going on at once thanks to Hollow, I think its past time we establish some discussion rules for this verse because the same shit that's been rejected time and time again even under the watch of about a dozen CGMs keeps getting threads with the same exact stuff being proposed and being rejected

 

[Antvasima]

Ant I feel as though we can get some content or thread mods along some CGMs here already as these are just the same previous arguments from literally like every other thread, I do feel that after several dozens of threads heck there apparently 6 going on at once thanks to Hollow, I think its past time we establish some discussion rules for this verse because the same shit that's been rejected time and time again even under the watch of about a dozen CGMs keeps getting threads with the same exact stuff being proposed and being rejected

Well, first we need all of the links here fixed, so this threadcan be properly evaluated by them.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Yeah this verse needs discussion rules asap. Can't believe this is happening again. Bring proof that people avoid guns. Just one chapter of someone getting shot at and avoiding it. Else just don't try to support with calcs what isn't supported especially calcs with mostly fighting between people.

 

[Dinozxd]

is that point

I already answered. It was a surprise attack.

Chifuyu saying he is fast

This was justified by Morris.

the fact Chifuyu never actually blitzed him +

Because he never directly fought him? Ryusei who is comparable to Chifuyu outspeeded Kojiro massively (check out the OP) so Chifuyu should be massively faster as well.

that calc implies his travel speed is super

That feat ain't travel speed bud.

the unaccepted calculation which used the wrong formula as timeframe = distance / speed while you used distance / aceleration which is completely bullshit? I see your point here

That calc wasn't rejected cuz of that and you know it pretty well so stop the bs please.

Ant I feel as though we can get some content or thread mods along some CGMs here already as these are just the same previous arguments from literally like every other thread, I do feel that after several dozens of threads heck there apparently 6 going on at once thanks to Hollow, I think its past time we establish some discussion rules for this verse because the same shit that's been rejected time and time again even under the watch of about a dozen CGMs keeps getting threads with the same exact stuff being proposed and being rejected

cause specific point this is irrelevant and just reads as another excuse right alongside every PIS or the plot needed it type excuse because so far that hasn't pertained to any of the feats I've commented on

You are blatantly ignoring our points and we are at fault here? You presented the same 2 misintepreted scans in all of the threads about this topic where we presented many more and much better constructed arguments and interpreted scans. The bias is wild.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Where exactly is stated Mikey magically becomes stronger each arc? Also the profile so I won't discuss this, we have Base Mikey fighting with Hanma while DI Mikey no diffing Hanma, we have Base South fighting the legendary duo while DI South no diff the legendary duo (all the scans are above), so please, prove Mikey becomes stronger and faster randomly and South can becomes esponentially stronger in some seconds.

It doesn't have to be stated, it's something we can all see and witness. The point is, Mikey in beginning of the series (August 2005) fought on par with Hanma, but at Tenjiku arc (around 2006 January or February), he's already stronger than someone who is Massively superior to hanma. The profile is incorrect because it's outdated.

Uh... proof? To me that was a Base South

Here, South is topless and has the crazy crazed look, something he has when he's on Dark Urges

They knew they were at their limit so it was their only solution, also my main point was that Inui was 1st gen like the duo, Taiju isn't and had another comlpete spirit, they didn't care to the same degree they cared about Inui.

Doesn't change the fact that it was against the 1st Generation Black Dragons morals, nothing changes the fact that what they did is completely against what 1st gen leader values.

Like.. even DI vanishes after the activation so? Nah just because something is self explenatory for you doesn't mean it's the correct version

Because Senju's true potential isn't the same as Mikey's dark impulses and South's urges. South and Mikey's are involuntary while Senju's wasn't.
Senju decided to hold back before Chapter 229 because of Takeomi, after that she has no reasons to hold back.

 

[Dinozxd]

Bring proof that people avoid guns. Just one chapter of someone getting shot at and avoiding it.

Can you guys bring proof if someone getting blatantly outsped or blitzed by guns without pis? Because we literally have one bullet dodging and one bullet outpacing/bullet timer feat (Izana saving Kakucho) but you guys are ignoring it.

Also like I already said above, a verse doesn't have to be below guns just because they don't always outspeed them. PTJ verse is Supersonic+ and used to be Hypersonic where there isn't any bullet timer feats. A gun is rarely used in TR unlike other delinquent mangas so It's pretty normal that we don't have a lot of bullet timer feats.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Yeah this verse needs discussion rules asap. Can't believe this is happening again. Bring proof that people avoid guns. Just one chapter of someone getting shot at and avoiding it. Else just don't try to support with calcs what isn't supported especially calcs with mostly fighting between people.

Don't comment on here if you don't understand anything, thank you.