Tokyo Revengers verse upgrade

[Arnoldstone18]

Let’s index it like

“Subsonic+ with Supersonic+ reactions”

 

[CorbinMLG]

Buddy clearly they aren't or chifuyu wouldn't consider the guy fast or skilled like how he says verbatim

Ryusei and Baji are comparable. Chifuyu and Ryusei are comparable.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Buddy clearly they aren't or chifuyu wouldn't consider the guy fast or skilled like how he says verbatim

They are, it's clear that toman captains are relative to each other.

Mitsuya who's comparable to Baji went on par with Mochi.

Chifuyu defeated Mochi

 

[Dalesean027]

Again this was literally all I have said, not a damn thing was about Baji's scaling

Bro he's literally saying the guy is fast and skilled they're directly shown as being relative by that alone and again it just seems they're relative there neither is displayed as being superhumanly above the other right there that's still relativity
As for the baji thing I'll not even try and argue that
The thing is the calc is absolutely correct and fine mathematically, trying to upscale off of an unaccepted multiplier is not, but the biggest thing is whether or not this would be an outlier by our current standards because this calc would suggest the guy is 30x faster than a guy relative to himself

Also why would Chifuyu think about this guys slashes in the first person yet be wording it about the guys relativity to Baji... like yall are pushing it with that.

Chifuyu thinks that guy is fast and skilled that's his only statements, anything else is headcanon honestly.

The guy is relative to him

Also

Chifuyu got hit in the head by a baseball bat before that statement so I don't think his statements should be taken seriously.

Nah I'm not gonna take that reasoning as valid tbh, yall tried to say similiar stuff just rationalizing people being 10x faster than bullets as them just being suicidal and letting them slowly approach and hit them.

This kinda argument simply ain't rational and occams razor dictate the simplest thing is what Chifuyu said verbatim

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I would be okay with Arnold's proposal for now but I would like to hear the opinions of more people.

 

[Dalesean027]

Ryusei and Baji are comparable. Chifuyu and Ryusei are comparable.

Damn so it seems all that time saying they aren't comparable was a lie to yallselves then

If you ever read the spinoff, you'd know that Kojiro isn't comparable to Baji, and was holding back against ryusei

So either they're all relative or they aren't which one suits your arguments

 

[CorbinMLG]

Damn so it seems all that time saying they aren't comparable was a lie to yallselves thens

Kojiro isn't comparable to either of them.

 

[Zefra3011]

Let’s index it like

“Subsonic+ with Supersonic+ reactions”

Honestly I don't see why reaction should be considered when the whole feat is an outlier + Chifuyu had the whole time to react to the swing and he already knew the guy was hitting Ryusei

 

[Dalesean027]

Kojiro isn't comparable to either of them.

But I thought Kojiro was holding back against Ryusei who is comparable to Chifuyu who blatantly called him fast and skilled yet he's not on the level of Baji(seems pretty comparable to me)

Yeah this is now just seeming outliery atp since none are vastly superior to even warrant this

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Kojiro isn't comparable to either of them.

Any support of them treating him as a fodder? With that kind of speed difference they shouldn't even be in the same field.

Honestly I don't see why reaction should be considered when the whole feat is an outlier + Chifuyu had the whole time to react to the swing and he already knew the guy was hitting Ryusei

It would be kind of a middle ground. Don't personally agree much but if there is enough support for it from staff members.

 

[CorbinMLG]

But I thought Kojiro was holding back against Ryusei

Not in a fight, but when Kojiro was beating him with weapons tied to a chair. He is rougher when it comes to Chifuyu and Baji.

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

I understood nearly nothing here. Can't follow the way this is worded but the way someone fights has nothing to do with their power. Him preferring off guard attacks means nothing for his power when it can be easily explained by not wanting to end up in a tiring fight. Thing is if the other guy was that much faster being caught off guard wouldn't even be an option.

Because if you were to believe that someone is weak their entire life and they suddenly got strong, you'd think they're strong.

Mikey was being emotionless the entire final arc, and the first time he saw emotions was when Takemichi could get comparable to Kakucho, does this mean takemichi is relative to Mikey now? Even thought when Mikey was SEVERELY holding back, he could still blitz Takemichi?

My reasoning makes sense, you just can't grasp it

 

[Dalesean027]

Not in a fight, but when Kojiro was beating him with weapons tied to a chair. He is rougher when it comes to Chifuyu and Baji.

Doesn't really matter when he's still called fast and skilled by one of the comparable guys so you're kinda SOL there

My reasoning makes sense, you just can't grasp it

Nah the reasonings just in fact fall short

My compromise is just giving Chifuyu supersonic+ reactions with subsonic+ combat speed.

If we aren't wanting to compromise I've no qualms outright fully rejecting this due to its outliery nature

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Because if you were to believe that someone is weak their entire life and they suddenly got strong, you'd think they're strong.

Mikey was being emotionless the entire final arc, and the first time he saw emotions was when Takemichi could get comparable to Kakucho, does this mean takemichi is relative to Mikey now? Even thought when Mikey was SEVERELY holding back, he could still blitz Takemichi?

My reasoning makes sense, you just can't grasp it

You can comment on someone growing stronger. You ain't commenting on someone thirty times slower than you being impressive. Dude wouldn't even count as a good punching bag. No idea if you are grasping what exactly it is you are proposing but any kind of anti-feat would ruin it and here you haven't even linked anything to support it and no dudes being caught off guard closely avoiding it isn't a good support it's a damn bad one because at those speed differences the very notion of off guard doesn't exist as long as the character isn't blind.

Nah the reasonings just in fact fall short

My compromise is just giving Chifuyu supersonic+ reactions with subsonic+ combat speed.

If we aren't wanting to compromise I've no qualms outright fully rejecting this due to its outliery nature

That's also my stance but I would like to see the viewpoint of other members and if they would like to accept it. If there is enough support for just the reactions part it could be applied. Else yeah it's just a feat being calced based on a common fiction troupe and thus should not be accepted.

 

[CorbinMLG]

Any support of them treating him as a fodder?

Ryusei one-shot him.

 

[Dalesean027]

Ryusei one-shot him.

They are still moving relative to each other there, one shotting someone is only AP justification. I'll tell you what one isn't displayed as being superhumanly faster than the other and the "I knew you'd do that" tells me he just read him which doesn't indicate a 30x speed difference at all especially seeing he's still moving relative as well

 

[CorbinMLG]

They are still moving relative to each other there, one shotting someone is only AP justification.

Ryusei only took a step forward.

 

[Dalesean027]

Ryusei only took a step forward.

And swung his punch relatively in the same panel before the other guy's connected first after he already read him

 

[Dalesean027]

Ryusei one-shot him.

This is actually just textbook this

The calc implies Chifuyu is 30x faster than a character who scales to Baji who should be superior to Chifuyu in speed and that's a contradiction.
(So Chifuyu >>>>>>>>> Hishi = Baji > Chifuyu)

From the calculation page:

Evading Punches​

Refrain from calculating feats based on dodging attacks from other characters at extreme proximity, as this is primarily a trope used to exaggerate a narrow miss rather than a literal representation of overwhelming speed. Taking it at face value is often inconsistent with the battle in which the feat occurs, where the opponents are presented as equals, but the calculation results in them being considered several times faster. This should only be used when the character in question is greatly superior to the one who's attack he is evading and the speed of the attack is concretely stated, such as being able to surpass the speed of sound, or light, or uses a basis in the Real World such as the speed of an athlete's punch. If the two fighters are equal, you should simply scale them to the stated speed of the attack, or off of other feats they perform.

 

[CorbinMLG]

And swung his punch relatively in the same panel before the other guy's connected first after he already read him

You can see that Kojiro's arm didn't even move forward.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Ryusei one-shot him.

You see that scene and it makes you say damn one dude is thirty times slower than the other? When the one who fell down got a punch straight to the jaw? I mean a little bit above maybe. But the difference is really small. Also was Kojiro knocked out?

 

[Dalesean027]

Anywho who agrees to the compromise or does Corbin speak for everyone here cause otherwise I'm just gonna reject this and keep it pushing

 

[CorbinMLG]

Also was Kojiro knocked out?

Yes.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

How many steps did Kojiro's opponent took? Kojiro's leg is even a little bit higher than the one he fights against and the position of the arm is already relative to his shoulder and even beyond that. Any other small difference is due to stance and the way they punch. The amount of speed difference implied here means Kojiro should have barely started lifting his leg before the punch arrived.

 

[Zefra3011]

Anywho who agrees to the compromise or does Corbin speak for everyone here cause otherwise I'm just gonna reject this and keep it pushing

I think we shouldn't even count it as a reaction time honestly, he had the whole time to react to the swing and not just that little timeframe used in the calc especially when he already knew the guy was getting hit, and even since the feat itself is an outlier, so yeah I disagree in using this in general.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Honestly I don't see why reaction should be considered when the whole feat is an outlier + Chifuyu had the whole time to react to the swing and he already knew the guy was hitting Ryusei

Combat speed is different from Reaction speed. if Chifuyu considers Kojiro fast in combat then it’s fine.

As for the latter, I thought that was addressed in the calc justifications.

 

[CorbinMLG]

How many steps did Kojiro's opponent took? Kojiro's leg is even a little bit higher than the one he fights against and the position of the arm is already relative to his shoulder and even beyond that. Any other small difference is due to stance and the way they punch. The amount of speed difference implied here means Kojiro should have barely started lifting his leg before the punch arrived.

They both just took a step forward, Kojiro started moving earlier.

 

[Dalesean027]

How many steps did Kojiro's opponent took? Kojiro's leg is even a little bit higher than the one he fights against and the position of the arm is already relative to his shoulder and even beyond that. Any other small difference is due to stance and the way they punch. The amount of speed difference implied here means Kojiro should have barely started lifting his leg before the punch arrived.

Barely is an understatement the speed which we're trying to argue here wouldn't even have him move 1cm to even raise his leg let alone step forward to and raise his arm to punch covering seemingly the same distance before the other guy even duffed him while also blitzing everyone in the room

 

[ShadowSythez]

Reaction speed is not accurate. Movement speed makes more sense, I am inclined to lean towards morrishatesyou's side. I do feel as if their arguments aren't being taken seriously and I do believe even though I haven't seen the series that this isn't an outlier and makes sense. Albeit I still disagree with the multiplier statement.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I think we shouldn't even count it as a reaction time honestly, he had the whole time to react to the swing and not just that little timeframe used in the calc especially when he already knew the guy was getting hit, and even since the feat itself is an outlier, so yeah I disagree in using this in general.

I agree with Zefra but if there is enough support for the feat I wouldn't mind it scaling to just reactions.

 

[Dalesean027]

Reaction speed is not accurate. Movement speed makes more sense, I am inclined to lean towards morrishatesyou's side. I do feel as if their arguments aren't being taken seriously and I do believe even though I haven't seen the series that this isn't an outlier and makes sense. Albeit I still disagree with the multiplier statement.

Movement speed would only apply to burst movement speed and wouldn't scale to combat speed or reactions as these guys narratively aren't as fast as fighter just movement wise

You also couldn't scale anyone else to it

 

[MorrisHatesYou]

Things you all don't understand is that Kojiro doesn't hit Ryusei as hard as he did with Chifuyu and Baji in later chapters, he wasn't going all out.

And Chifuyu was being more serious than he usually is because his action was triggered by a very strong memory.

And Kojiro being greatly inferior to Chifuyu.

Given all this, the speed being greatly higher do make sense

 

[ShadowSythez]

Movement speed would only apply to burst movement speed and wouldn't scale to combat speed or reactions as these guys narratively aren't as fast as fighter just movement wise

Yes I still think its more accurate then using reaction speed.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

Barely is an understatement the speed which we're trying to argue here wouldn't even have him move 1cm to even raise his leg let alone step forward to and raise his arm to punch covering seemingly the same distance before the other guy even duffed him while also blitzing everyone in the room

Damn, you didn't have to do me like that but yeah that's the speed being implied here. Was trying to make it seem more natural but a 30X difference ain't bridgable.

Reaction speed is not accurate. Movement speed makes more sense, I am inclined to lean towards morrishatesyou's side. I do feel as if their arguments aren't being taken seriously and I do believe even though I haven't seen the series that this isn't an outlier and makes sense. Albeit I still disagree with the multiplier statement.

There is literally a specific part on the wiki about that exact kind of situation. Having any amount of talk and not dismissing it outright is already good considering the characters here are all delinguents and not Superman and Random Goon A.

 

[ShadowSythez]

Damn, you didn't have to do me like that but yeah that's the speed being implied here. Was trying to make it seem more natural but a 30X difference ain't bridgable.

There is literally a specific part on the wiki about that exact kind of situation. Having any amount of talk and not dismissing it outright is already good considering the characters here are all delinguents and not Superman and Random Goon A.

I do feel as if you are taking this series as if it is realistic. I decided to take a trip to the home page of 'Tokyo Revengers' and this series is the opposite of realistic.

 

[Serlock_Holmes]

I do feel as if you are taking this series as if it is realistic. I decided to take a trip to the home page of 'Tokyo Revengers' and this series is the opposite of realistic.

It doesn't have to be realistic but it does have to move along the lines of the standards in the wiki. If the mangaka wanted to portray a massive speed difference he did a disastrous job at it and it would be a disservice to other series that TR gets a pass on that.

 

[Dalesean027]

So here's what we have, mind you dtaff votes matter the most but you're still welcome to give votes but I'd recommend severly pinging more staff as you actually need to to even get this accepted at all

Option 1: Subsonic+ combat speed with Supersonic+ Reaction
Agree: @Dalesean027, @Arnoldstone18

Option 2: Supersonic+ short burst movement speed with Subsonic+ combat speeds and reactions
Agree: @ShadowSythez

Option 3: nothing changes and the feat is ruled an outlier
Agreed: @Zefra3011 @Serlock_Holmes @Dalesean027 @Therefir @ImmortalDread @Syncornize @DarkDragonMedeus @Migue79

Option 4: Supersonic+ combat speeds and Reactions
Agree: @MorrisHatesYou @CorbinMLG @Dinozxd

 

[CorbinMLG]

You guys are being way too fussy. If you take a look at this, Takemichi's punch doesn't seem that much slower than Taiju's, even though Taiju should be more than 30 times faster.

 

[Dalesean027]

even though Taiju should be more than 30 times faster.

Based on what show me a blatant hypersonic feat he performs not via calculations but narrative hypersonic

 

[ShadowSythez]

It doesn't have to be realistic but it does have to move along the lines of the standards in the wiki. If the mangaka wanted to portray a massive speed difference he did a disastrous job at it and it would be a disservice to other series that TR gets a pass on that.

What exactly did he do wrong here ? Forgive me for being confused but I really don't understand how he or she did a bad job at potraying a speed difference.