I'm doing this again: Fire Dragon vs Dragon of Wrath

[DragonEmperor23]

I never said it increased speed.

I didn't mention it because it didn't effect who would win.

• Mel's fighting style heavily relies on counters so Natsu can't properly anticipate an enemy who waits for him to move to do his best tricks.
• I'll say it again: Mel's Full Counter can't affect Natsu but Natsu's stamina'll decrease more easily. and Mel'll be unaffected by Natsu's attacks if he can deflects they. The AP difference is negligible and Natsu has no ways to 'lol nope' Mel's attacks the same way Mel has. He'll lose energy quicker than Mel and both'll take damage due to the fact that Mel apparently has no regen in this form. But still he'll took less damage than all of you are suggesting.
  
  Natsu can just memorize Mel's fighting style and then beat him up. "He also was able to read and memorize the fine details of Sting's fighting style after clashing with him for a few minutes at best" They both have enough stamina to fight for hours. That's plenty of time for Natsu to memorize the fighting style and then win. Mel's only advantage is having a new skillset but Natsu can memorize and counter that while the only other thing is the full counter but Natsu can just not cover the body parts that he's going to be hitting Meliodas with with flames. After memorizing the fighting style he'll know when Mel is about to Reflect and counter him.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Natsu would easily be able to memorize all of Meliodas's movements and then pummel him.

 

[The_Calaca]

Fair enough. I'll stop arguing for now and wait for Mel's supporters to follow the discusion for now but I'll ask one thing:

Can Natsu memorize or pays attention to his opponents while angry? The only time I remember he did learn from opponents was Sting and Rogue and I don't remember another.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It's a passive ability, he just does it by seeing the opponent's movements. Him being angry wouldn't stop it, anger doesn't make you dumber.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Anger can make you dumber, that does happen, however, Natsu has never gotten dumber when Angry

 

[The_Calaca]

Being angry makes you lose cool and to look and learn you should stay cool unless you can prove he can do it angry too.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I mean Natsu wouldn't be angry at Mel, so why does that matter

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Natsu's been able to be smart while angry, look at the time when he was angry at Zeref and was going to use FDK mode to kill the both of them but then realized that would be a bad idea.

 

[The_Calaca]

That's pretty much common sense.

 

[The_Calaca]

I mean Natsu wouldn't be angry at Mel, so why does that matter

DragonEmperor stated that Natsu'll get angry after seeing how Mel deflects his attacks.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

That's the point of rage, you lose your senses. This shows Natsu retains his senses while enraged which is all he uses to memorize styles.

 

[The_Calaca]

Having common sense is a lot different than having a cool mind to study your opponent patterns.

And I don't even know why all FT's supporters bring that up as irrefutable. I don't remember any time he did that to other opponents. But I won't talk about it right now. Maybe if I read Fairy Tail again I'll make a revision of it cause there are somethings I'm not sure about.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

Saying that Natsu will memorize Mel's fighting style without considering Mel can do the same seems pretty ignorant to me. And I don't think Natsu is actually gonna get angry here unless Mel actually does something like messing with the Guild.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Saying that Natsu will memorize Mel's fighting style without considering Mel can do the same seems pretty ignorant to me. And I don't think Natsu is actually gonna get angry here unless Mel actually does something like messing with the Guild.

It's not ignorant at all. I am using a feat that Natsu has shown of his skill. If Meliodas hasn't been shown to do the same, then he doesn't get Natsu's skills just because he lived longer. That is what would be ignorance.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

That's not ignorance in the slightest, what you are arguing for Natsu is only being a quick thinker. Mel is more experienced and has been fighting for a lot longer than Natsu. Furthermore he's not as straightforward with his attacks like Natsu is, who essentially throws around fire enhanced haymakers.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

No, being a quick thinker =/= being able to memorize all of your opponent's movements and patterns after a few minutes. Fighting for 3,000 years does not make you a better fighter than someone just because you have fought for longer. Meliodas has no feats of this skill level and thus would be less skilled. If you're talking about attacks it's just slice and block for Mel. Not much variety there.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

That's what being a quick thinker allows one to do. It allows one to come up with strategies and counters on the fly, and yes fighting for 3000 years would mean that you are more skilled than a much younger opponent than you. You have a overwhelming experience advantage over the opponent and have seen fighters like them before. Meliodas can slash, stab, block, reflect and can fight just as good as Natsu can. You're downplaying Mel and reaching wank grounds for Natsu.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Ideas on the fly =/= memorizing the patterns of the opponent. Natsu isn't creating a new strategy or anything like that, he's neutralizing the opponent's way of fighting by knowing how they react to things. No, it really doesn't. See the many examples of people losing to less old people in a melee fight in fiction. I'm not downplaying Mel or wanking Natsu. I'm arguing for him using scans but you're saying Meliodas can do the same thing just because he's older which is NLF.

 

[Rin_The_Dragon_Empress]

That's not a no limits fallacy, that's common sense. Maybe learn the meaning of what a NLF is, whenever you have literally thousands of years of experience over the opponent you'll be more skilled more often than not. And again, that's what quick thinking does. Analyzing and countering in a short amount of time. Mel can most certainly do the same thing he isn't an idiot as you are suggesting.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

NLF = No Limits Fallacy. You are arguing that because Meliodas has fought for 3,000 years, he is more skilled than anyone who hasn't fought for as long as 3,000 years. I have never called him an idiot, you were the one that brought that term up just now. I am just using what has been shown and Meliodas has never been shown to have the same level of skill.

 

[The_Calaca]

Mel hasn't shown the same amount of skill as Natsu so no. He's leagues above him in experience but Natsu is more skilled.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Mel hasn't shown the same amount of skill as Natsu so no. He's leagues above him in experience but Natsu is more skilled.

^ This is what I mean. Fighting more times =/= being better at fighting.

 

[AstralKing7]

Actually we can use Mel's past fights from before the Sims group we're estab as a way to prove who has better fighting style

 

[DragonEmperor23]

We're not talking about the fighting style itself. I said Natsu would be able to memorize Meliodas's patterns and movements. Rin said that Mel could do the same thing since he has fought for longer.

 

[The_Calaca]

But unless he beated a fighter with the same skill as Natsu or directly shown that skill we can't assume he would beat Natsu in a skill contest. We don't know that much of Mel's past after all.

 

[AstralKing7]

...he fought Mael before who has fought countless numbers of demons

 

[DragonEmperor23]

With that logic Saitama is super skilled because he has fought many monsters.

 

[The_Calaca]

Does Mael memorizes opponent's patterns?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Does Mael memorizes opponent's patterns?

No, this is even worse because Angels are super effective against demons. Mael oneshot them all.

 

[BurlapJack]

Why are we hypedfocusing on this memorizing fight movements when that will get you all nowhere? What is the ap of this version of natau vs mel's?

 

[The_Calaca]

Natsu is higher than 550 megatons while Mel is higher than 447 megatons.

Mel's feat was casual while Natsu had to pull a lot of effort in his but this version is reasonably stronger than the one who did the feat.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I think Mel is less skilled because his full power is so strong, back in the day almost no one could beat him at all, he didn't need to read opponents movements or skills because he was so strong, he would just overpower anyone who opposed him, and barrel his way through everyone, it took him 60 years with Ban to come up with a strategy to somewhat best the Demon king, I just don't think Mel has better skill, because he hasn't needed to develop it, because he's so much more insanely powerful compared to everyone else

Also I think he'd underestimate Natsu, and be caught off guard before he could use Revenge Counter

 

[BurlapJack]

But what about mel's fights with ban? He actually look like he was pulling of some martial arts shit against him, we just gonna ignore that?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I'm talking about Reading Movements and Analyzing opponents weaknesses, both of course are geniuses at martial arts

 

[DragonEmperor23]

I'm talking about Reading Movements and Analyzing opponents weaknesses, both of course are geniuses at martial arts

Right, they're both good at fighting but we're talking about the analyzing and such.

 

[Theglassman12]

Why are we talking about something that Natsu has hardly shown aside from one time in a fight?

 

[DragonEmperor23]

Because he doesn't have to repeat every time that he's memorized the opponent's movements. Anyone who's fought him since then and is comparable to him scales to him skill wise.

 

[The_Calaca]

Why are we talking about something that Natsu has hardly shown aside from one time in a fight?

That's the problem I got about it. He did it mid-series and never done it again or even a single statement of it within all the fights Natsu had. If he can do this then many enemies'd have been affected by the same thing.

 

[DragonEmperor23]

The thing is, it's not like every time someone uses Hellfire in NNT they have to mention that it negates Regenerationn. This was something established that it does and they shouldn't have to repeat how it works for you to know that's that's what it does.

 

[The_Calaca]

When it comes to something that has been repeatedly being used isn't necessary. But this doesn't apply to this because Natsu never did it again. He'd analyzes Mardgeer, Zeref or Acno's patterns to get a little advantage over them but he didn't. And it isn't like they can overcome to it because they are unpredictable cause such thing isn't true.