Natsu and Gray vs Halibel 5-8-0 (please come to discuss)

[CloverDragon03]

(Also, only two of these are even on Halibel's profile)

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

Who is Halibel?

 

[Kachon123]

Who is Halibel?

A Natsu victim

 

[CloverDragon03]

Who is Halibel?

The guy Natsu's fighting (and I think people are insisting he will literally never get hit)

Edit: Also, reading intentions for prediction might not even work because Natsu can basically turn his brain off (it's why he has Instinctive Action, he can just stop thinking)

 

[Zabazab]

Okay?

You've been presented his ability to avoid unavoidable attacks– with his style even having a technique to specifically avoid unavoidable attacks–, extremely accurate precision feats of deconstructing bodyparts without dealing injury, and analytical prediction that renders even invisible danmaku & obscured attacks meaningless, but this is "nothing special" or "don't translate to a fight well"?

The arguments have mostly been attempts to descredit Halibel's abilities as nonsensical instead of showcasing why Natsu & Gray actually can hit him, or even perceive him when he can just immediately turn invisible and reverse the numbers advantage via clones, with both Gray & Natsu each having to deal with a 2-on-1 assassination by the greatest assassin in Halibel's verse.

Like, so far it doesn't look ridiculous at all for Halibel to be untouchable in this fight, beyond enormous AoE (which Halibel can just turn off, by the way).

 

[VortechsTG]

Please provide an example of Natsu's undodgeable aoe attacks already.

 

[Zabazab]

Please provide an example of Natsu's undodgeable aoe attacks already.

This is his range justification.

 

[VortechsTG]

This is his range justification.

I assume that's not what they were talking about.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

The guy Natsu's fighting (and I think people are insisting he will literally never get hit)

Edit: Also, reading intentions for prediction might not even work because Natsu can basically turn his brain off (it's why he has Instinctive Action, he can just stop thinking)

No idea of who you are talking about...

 

[Fezzih_007]

This is his range justification.

I can't see the image, but i pretty sure is Natsu attack reaching the end of a Island from another side, i think. Atleast for the reference list.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I mean I'm not sure what I expected. This literally always happens in Re:Zero VS matches, the characters are always "completely untouchable" or something (almost as if the feats themselves are being massively inflated when applied to VS matches or something)

Natsu alone resists Halibel's best forms of offense and has higher AP and durability to begin with, on top of kilometers of range (nearly 4 kilometers to be exact, hell the attack's width is 80+ meters so he's mowing down clones upon clones with one move), Analytical Prediction with all 5 senses, the ability to stop thinking entirely to get around prediction based on reading intentions and such, etc.

Natsu frankly doesn't even need Gray to win this

 

[VortechsTG]

I can't see the image, but i pretty sure is Natsu attack reaching the end of a Island from another side, i think. Atleast for the reference list.

There's no way that's all you were talking about

 

[Zabazab]

There's no way that's all you were talking about

80m wide 4km long beam

 

[Zackra1799]

Honestly, even if Natsu or Gray can't hit him normally (which I have serious doubts about), he has ways around this.

First, since Halibel has increased hearing, Natsu can pull his load roar move he did against Cobra, who was ui weaving Natsu's attacks at the time, now I know Halibel can turn off his hearing and some might say he would predict Natsu doing this, but in the situation Natsu did this in, he was fighting a literal mind reader and even he couldn't react in time to avoid being hit with it.

Second, Halibel doesn't resist fear manip especially not Natsu's which can cause literal inanimate objects like puppets to feel fear, while Natsu doesn't open up with this. If he gets angry enough, he will use it to stop Halibel in his tracks and give either him or Gray some hits.

Gray is also underrated in this fight. He is capable of locking down the battlefield with massive ice walls hundreds of meters to kilometers in length. In fact, if Gray sections off a large portion of the battlefield, trapping Halibel and Natsu inside a massive ice box, Natsu's aoe fire attacks quite literally become unavoidable as there would be nowhere for him to go to avoid the massive fireball-consuming everything inside, Natsu also wouldn't melt the ice as both he and gray are capable of using their ice and fire attacks in tandem by this point in the series without worsening the other.

 

[Fezzih_007]

There's no way that's all you were talking about

Hm, why?

 

[VortechsTG]

Halibel will literally be invisible to Natsu to begin with. He can drag him deep into the ground before he will even know what's happening and render him completely unable to move as he is literally occupying the same space as the stone. He can use substitution and escape jutsu to escape if he's completely surrounded with no gaps and if he's not then he can dodge almost anything anyway. He can reflect any blunt force attack back at Natsu so he has to use fire. And his Kunai will easily strike with enough precision to hit Natsu's deadspots and open up massive gaping holes in his soul that can't be regenerated or resisted or anything.

The speed of his thought is such that he can simulate years worth of time in a single instant where Natsu will appear frozen to him and he will use every detail about Natsu to predict his every move based not on his thought but on himself. He has effectively infinite time to think about even the slightest move and consider every possible combination of moves Natsu could pull off before he ever even displays them.

 

[Zabazab]

I mean I'm not sure what I expected. This literally always happens in Re:Zero VS matches, the characters are always "completely untouchable" or something (almost as if the feats themselves are being massively inflated when applied to VS matches or something)

I don't get complaining that a character who is hyped up in-verse and displays such superiority to other characters that the text labels him "A Transcendent Being", with one of the biggest factors being Hitting Him Is Very Hard, and displaying this numerous times through dodging impossible-to-dodge attacks, is argued as hard to hit in cross-verse matches.

Natsu alone resists Halibel's best forms of offense and has higher AP and durability to begin with,

Resisting his one-shot hax is all well and good, but the gap isn't so large that he can withstand having his vitals targeted with kunai, shuriken, or blades.

on top of kilometers of range (nearly 4 kilometers to be exact, hell the attack's width is 80+ meters so he's mowing down clones upon clones with one move)

It can travel kilometres sure, but its AoE is lacking. Halibel can easily dodge to the left, right, slip into the earth, escape into the sky, swap with a log, or neutralize it by striking the deadspot.

Analytical Prediction with all 5 senses

None of which will detect Halibel.

the ability to stop thinking entirely to get around prediction based on reading intentions and such

This'd work for reading basic intent, but Halibel's prediction isn't so surface-level. The likes of Garfiel and Emilia can fight without thinking, and have instinctive action to the degree that if there is any thought it must be simultaneous with movement, even the slightest gap between the two cresting fatal openenings– and yet don't gain an edge against analytical precog users.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Halibel will literally be invisible to Natsu to begin with. He can drag him deep into the ground before he will even know what's happening and render him completely unable to move as he is literally occupying the same space as the stone.

Good luck to him trying to do that when his LS is way worse than Natsu's. He tries grabbing him and not only does he fail, but he gives away his position in doing so

He can use substitution and escape jutsu to escape if he's completely surrounded with no gaps and if he's not then he can dodge almost anything anyway. He can reflect any blunt force attack back at Natsu so he has to use fire.

"He can dodge almost anything anyway" yeah you continue to assert this but I've laid out multiple times how Natsu can get hits in. Natsu having to use fire is also just fine, good luck dealing with flames that Power Null and can reach temperatures up to those of lightning (again, 5x hotter than the Sun)

And his Kunai will easily strike with enough precision to hit Natsu's deadspots and open up massive gaping holes in his soul that can't be regenerated or resisted or anything.

...If it doesn't melt first, which I'm confident it will given the temperatures we're working with

The speed of his thought is such that he can simulate years worth of time in a single instant where Natsu will appear frozen to him and he will use every detail about Natsu to predict his every move based not on his thought but on himself. He has effectively infinite time to think about even the slightest move and consider every possible combination of moves Natsu could pull off before he ever even displays them.

This assumes he already knows about Natsu, which is not at all suggested in the matchup. You're basically giving him knowledge about things the OP didn't give him knowledge about

 

[CloverDragon03]

Gray is also underrated in this fight. He is capable of locking down the battlefield with massive ice walls hundreds of meters to kilometers in length. In fact, if Gray sections off a large portion of the battlefield, trapping Halibel and Natsu inside a massive ice box, Natsu's aoe fire attacks quite literally become unavoidable as there would be nowhere for him to go to avoid the massive fireball-consuming everything inside, Natsu also wouldn't melt the ice as both he and gray are capable of using their ice and fire attacks in tandem by this point in the series without worsening the other.

I didn't even bring up Gray simply because I thought Natsu alone would be enough, but with Gray as well, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion

Natsu's aoe fire attacks quite literally become unavoidable as there would be nowhere for him to go to avoid the massive fireball-consuming everything inside

But nah bro he'd just dodge anyway

 

[VortechsTG]

Good luck to him trying to do that when his LS is way worse than Natsu's. He tries grabbing him and not only does he fail, but he gives away his position in doing so

Unless he figures out what is happening literally instantly, that will not come into play.

"He can dodge almost anything anyway" yeah you continue to assert this but I've laid out multiple times how Natsu can get hits in.

lol. Lmao even.

Natsu having to use fire is also just fine, good luck dealing with flames that Power Null and can reach temperatures up to those of lightning (again, 5x hotter than the Sun)
...If it doesn't melt first, which I'm confident it will given the temperatures we're working with

Both lightning and the heat of the sun are not exactly unheard of in ReZero. Roswaal’s Al Goa are as hot as the sun. The kid version of Halibel's equal counterpart was able to run on boiling magma and fight Arakiya, who uses lightning, fire, and light based attacks and vaporizes nearby buildings just by existing with zero difficulty whatsoever. He simply did not feel the heat. If even his Zori wouldn't burn up with direct contact when he kicked Arakiya, Halibel's kunai, which also power null, are not getting melted.

This assumes he already knows about Natsu, which is not at all suggested in the matchup. You're basically giving him knowledge about things the OP didn't give him knowledge about

No, he will predict every ability Natsu has before he uses it. That is simply how absurd his prediction is. Hell, I'm only arguing he would know when his opponent is about to use a move, but Theresia can judge a person's abilities with just a glance without even seeing them fight.

I have yet to see a single good reason Natsu could hit Halibel or why Halibel couldn't just kill him with a single Kunai striking his weak points.

 

[VortechsTG]

But nah bro he'd just dodge anyway

He can literally do the equivalent of teleportation with multiple abilities and he can phase through walls. Why could he not dodge that?

 

[Kachon123]

Voting Natsu and Gray for Clover and Zackra's reasons.

 

[Fezzih_007]

Voting Natsu and Gray for Clover and Zackra's reasons.

Pfffff lol, okay.

 

[Kazuma_kuwabara]

 

[Zackra1799]

Halibel will literally be invisible to Natsu to begin with. He can drag him deep into the ground before he will even know what's happening and render him completely unable to move as he is literally occupying the same space as the stone.

Natsu's been able to melt stone since the beginning of the series, so any attempt to lock him down with it is going to fail horribly, especially if halibel drags him underground himself as Natsu can enflame his entire body so Halibel would lose his hand, grabbing him

He can use substitution and escape jutsu to escape if he's completely surrounded with no gaps and if he's not then he can dodge almost anything anyway.

Considering just how cold Gray's ice is, which at this point in the series can freeze Natsu's fire just on contact if he tries to go through it, he'd freeze himself solid.

He can reflect any blunt force attack back at Natsu so he has to use fire. And his Kunai will easily strike with enough precision to hit Natsu's deadspots and open up massive gaping holes in his soul that can't be regenerated or resisted or anything.

Natsu himself can reflect gajeel's entire iron dragon roar attack which is easily made up of 1000+ small pieces of metal, so a few kunai aren't an issue for him, even if he did get hit they'd just melt on contact with his body as BOS Natsu could casually melt Glass with just his body heat alone let alone Tartaros Arc Natsu.

The speed of his thought is such that he can simulate years worth of time in a single instant where Natsu will appear frozen to him and he will use every detail about Natsu to predict his every move based not on his thought but on himself. He has effectively infinite time to think about even the slightest move and consider every possible combination of moves Natsu could pull off before he ever even displays them.

Having good cognition speed is good, especially on this level, but speed is still equal here. Every move Halibel takes, Natsu and Gray can make a move. If Halibel attacks, Natsu and Gray can counterattack with AoE. His ranged options get countered via freezing or melting, so melee is his only real option. Getting close would put him in AoE range, so regardless of the positioning, Halibel has issues regardless of where he is.


Anyways, Natsu and Gray take this

 

[Kachon123]

Pfffff lol, okay.

?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Anyways, Natsu and Gray take this

I assuming you voting them?
I need comfirmation so i can count the vote.

 

[Zackra1799]

I assuming you voting them?
I need comfirmation so i can count the vote.

Yes, I'm voting for Natsu and Gray

 

[VortechsTG]

Trapping Halibel in walls would be completely pointless. Halibel has three seperate abilities that allow him to ignore being trapped in by walls, two of which are teleportation.

Natsu's been able to melt stone since the beginning of the series, so any attempt to lock him down with it is going to fail horribly, especially if halibel drags him underground himself as Natsu can enflame his entire body so Halibel would lose his hand, grabbing him

I do not agree that he would simply lose his hand if he tried but alright, I'll admit that they could probably break free from this. I've been doing that since the beginning anyway.

Considering just how cold Gray's ice is, which at this point in the series can freeze Natsu's fire just on contact if he tries to go through it, he'd freeze himself solid.

Every ice uuser in ReZero and their mother (literally in the case of Emilia and Fortuna) can generate absolute zero temperatures and freeze time.

Natsu himself can reflect gajeel's entire iron dragon roar attack which is easily made up of 1000+ small pieces of metal, so a few kunai aren't an issue for him, even if he did get hit they'd just melt on contact with his body as BOS Natsu could casually melt Glass with just his body heat alone let alone Tartaros Arc Natsu.

They aren't just normal metal Kunai they are quite literally a part of Halibel's body since they're infused with parts of it. But any weapon a ReZero character uses has greater durability and resistance to extreme temperatures than they do anyway. His Kunai will also just powernull their way through his fire anyway, just as they did Jiwald.

Having good cognition speed is good, especially on this level, but speed is still equal here. Every move Halibel takes, Natsu and Gray can make a move.

This goes without saying but there's still an advantage to seeing everything in super slow motion, especially with such potent evasive abilities. There simply isn't a reality where Halibel gets hit while he has plenty of opportunities to land a hit.

 

[CloverDragon03]

I think Zackra's reasoning about trapping Halibel in ice walls is quite literally ignoring what Halibel can do just to say Natsu and Gray win.

Let's not with the accusations, because the thing about accusations is that they can always go both ways, and it just ends with no one being happy

 

[VortechsTG]

Let's not with the accusations, because the thing about accusations is that they can always go both ways, and it just ends with no one being happy

No, that's what he is doing, intentional or not. It's not an accusation, it's an observation. He needs to actually engage with what Halibel can do and talk about what Natsu and Gray can do to counter it.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You said he's doing this because he wants to see Natsu and Gray win. That's a clear accusation. I'm not asking you to double down. If I claimed you were exaggerating just how much Halibel's feats make him completely unable to be hit just because you wanted to see Halibel win, then claimed it was just an observation, would that be right? No, that would be wrong. That would absolutely be an accusation

 

[VortechsTG]

You said he's doing this because he wants to see Natsu and Gray win. That's a clear accusation. I'm not asking you to double down

Y'know what you're right. I shouldn't have done that. But it is frustrating when we've mentioned what Halibel can do dozens of times and it is outright ignored.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Y'know what you're right. I shouldn't have done that. But it is frustrating when we've mentioned what Halibel can do dozens of times and it is outright ignored.

I mean I get it, I've felt like that as well in this thread (on the Natsu and Gray side, of course), but the moment this starts it just doesn't stop. Happens to the best of us

 

[VortechsTG]

In any case I am sorry for making an accusation of intent but I still belive that the Fairy Tale side needs to actually address how they can even hit Halibel before this discussion can move on. Simply ignoring it and saying they can hit him is not productive.

 

[Zackra1799]

Y'know what you're right. I shouldn't have done that. But it is frustrating when we've mentioned what Halibel can do dozens of times and it is outright ignored.

It wasn't my intention to ignore the abilities, as I do have reasoning, I just got off track and forgot to mention it.

Gray has fought and beaten mest with relative ease despite the fact he has instant teleportation magic. He also was able to stop racer from running past him using ice make rampart (a gaint ice wall), Racer himself has time slow magic so Gray being able to stop halibel from escaping is very possible imo.

 

[Fezzih_007]

I gotta say trought

Roswaal’s Al Goa are as hot as the sun

Every ice uuser in ReZero and their mother (literally in the case of Emilia and Fortuna) can generate absolute zero temperatures and freeze time.

Even if that was true (Which is not, but I glady be proven wrong) Halibel resistance don't cover any of that, because a content revision need to happen to get this feats accepted as a resistance.

 

[VortechsTG]

It wasn't my intention to ignore the abilities, as I do have reasoning, I just got off track and forgot to mention it.

Yeah, I'm seriously sorry I made that accusation. I really shouldn't have done that.

Gray has fought and beaten mest with relative ease despite the fact he has instant teleportation magic. He also was able to stop racer from running past him using ice make rampart (a gaint ice wall), Racer himself has time slow magic so Gray being able to stop halibel from escaping is very possible imo.

This is good, but it's not just teleportation. He will be completely invisible and impossible to sense for them. His stealth abilities are layered. They would have to blindly attack the area around and somehow hit him while he can teleport, dive through the ground and other solid objects, practically fly with his aerial mobility, and much more importantly dodge the rain.

More realistically he would disappear and they would focus so they aren't conpletely blindsided when he attacks only for it to not be enough. They might coat themselves in an elemental shield but that isn't going to stop Halibel's deadspots. The next thing they would know there would be a hole in their necks.

 

[ReaperAndBlues]

Fire and ice duo fra

 

[VortechsTG]

Even if that was true (Which is not, but I glady be proven wrong) Halibel resistance don't cover any of that, because a content revision need to happen to get this feats accepted as a resistance.

I took a look at the Roswaal feat again, and I will admit it isn't the most direct comparison. It was definitely my weakest point there, but even so, for someone weaker than Halibel to not even feel anything when directly striking a being that vaporizes a chunk of a city just by existing with his bare hands, it's clear his heat resistance is extremely high. ReZero characters fighting with lightning is undeniable, however. As are absolute zero temperatures. If you think this isn't enough to resist being near them, then this becomes a boring stomp match. At least if he resists it it isn't technically a stomp.